If I Hear "price Action" or "setup" ONE More Time...

[joshdance 10]

There are a few phrases and words that I cringe when I read and hear. These cringes are minute in intensity and time, because I hear them all the time so I am virtually numb to them at this point. But here are two...

 

And I have friends and awesome traders who use these, so this is in no way reflects my opinion of THEM, even though the phrases annoy me. This thread is meant to vent just a little, but is written mostly a little tongue and cheek and should not be interpreted in any truly serious way. So let's have some good clean fun, and hopefully we will not argue too much, as the tone is meant to be light

[joshdance 10]

If I hear... "price action" ONE more time...

 

"Price action" has to be the biggest buzzphrase used by traders who know just enough to think they know what they are talking about, but who in fact usually don't have a clue. "What type of trader are you?" is bound to bring out many "I'm a price action trader" answers. Have you noticed how many vendors and marketers are using the phrase "price action" these days? It used to be cool to have fancy indicators. Now it seems to be cool to just have price bars or candles on the chart, and even better, to do a little jabbing and poking fun at anyone who has anything other than the market's price on the chart.

 

It's as if they worship the almighty "Price" and bow at his feet. The phrase "price then broke below..." irks me almost equally. Guess what guys? "Price" doesn't do anything. "Price" is not an entity. Now, the market can move up or down, but "price" cannot. Do you understand what a market is? Are you sure? Well, it's not the same as "price," and it's an important distinction.

[joshdance 10]

If I hear... "setup" ONE more time...

 

This is a perfectly valid word to describe an opportunity to enter the market. I get that. But it has taken the front seat of priority and has become the #1 word for people who seem to want to dumb down the market to the extent that they spend every hour of the day looking for "setups." One time a friend of mine and I took an opposite market position. He asked why I would take that position, and what it was based on? I said something like, "well, the market broke below this, and the volume was substantial, and the tape felt short," or something along those lines. I asked him what his was based on. He said, "It's based on probabilities, and a setup." I can't articulate without using the exact words, but suffice it to say that he was implying with his words he used at the time that his "setup" was far superior to my seemingly idiotic and baseless premise for my position, because he had--wait--a SETUP. Oh, and he had tested it thoroughly. Meaningless, but bully for him.

 

It's this kind of thing that I hear traders parroting, and sometimes I don't think they realize what they're even saying. "Find one setup and that's all you need." Really? And how many professional traders have a list of setups on their desks called "The Boomerang" and "The Dragon Tail" and "The Doogie Howser," and trade them faithfully every time? The market, to me, is more than just a bunch of setups. It's alive, breathing, and will kick your setup's ass from here to Timbuktu, especially if you insist on "sticking with the setup" every time you see it. The market loves to punish people who are lazy enough that they are not willing to learn how to trade, but who insist on learning "setups."

[gosu 10]

You might be nitpicking regarding price not doing anything but overall I share your sentiment. There is an entire cottage industry built around the promulgation of these two catchphrases. So far I haven't seen anyone put the two together to stand out amongst the crowd. Yet it could be any day now that I see a book has been written or a course made up on the PRICE ACTION SETUP.

[SIUYA 11]

Unfortunately you dont have much choice in the matter if everyone has to speak the same language. Otherwise imagine the gobbledy gook that would come out when trying to describe the same ideas.

Remember when everyone used to talk about "just floating out on the ocean that is the market waiting to catch the right wave." or the other one about "support becomes resistance and resistance becomes support".

While I share your sentiment......it seems it the best solution.,.....unless of course your idea is that its all propagated by vendors on the latest craze. I am waiting for the cosmic Mayan calendar and Goat testicles phase to come back into vogue.

 

i just ask the magic eight ball everyday....nothing to do with price.

 

I have two setups - one is called - "makes money some of the time:" the other "sometimes makes money some of the time" both have the same desired effect "get into the market with a reasonable probability that if you are right you will make some money and if you are wrong you will loose very little"

[TheNegotiator 13]

Siuya's right you know. We have to have some sort of common terminology. But like many people don't truly understand what they say and do on a day to day basis, many traders do not really understand what they are saying when they use certain terms.

 

Having said this, there are certainly phrases which I am less than enamoured with.

 

"Read Tape" is one on them. I don't think it's an especially accurate description in most cases and it's just one of those phrases certain types are drawn to. One of those which is bandied about by many people. I'm just not keen on it myself.

 

Another is the "Consistently Profitable Trader". To me it is designed to sucker in people who are desperate to succeed. I'm not saying all people who use it do so for that reason though. The way people always have talked about it in the past is to "Make the Turn". Not that this isn't a phrase in itself. Just that it doesn't focus on entirely the wrong aspect - the money.

[MightyMouse 12]

Add the misuse of the word "probabilities" to the list.

[joshdance 10]

  MightyMouse said:

Add the misuse of the word "probabilities" to the list.

 

How so MM ?

[roztom 10]

  joshdance said:

If I hear... "setup" ONE more time...

 

This is a perfectly valid word to describe an opportunity to enter the market. I get that. But it has taken the front seat of priority and has become the #1 word for people who seem to want to dumb down the market to the extent that they spend every hour of the day looking for "setups." One time a friend of mine and I took an opposite market position. He asked why I would take that position, and what it was based on? I said something like, "well, the market broke below this, and the volume was substantial, and the tape felt short," or something along those lines. I asked him what his was based on. He said, "It's based on probabilities, and a setup." I can't articulate without using the exact words, but suffice it to say that he was implying with his words he used at the time that his "setup" was far superior to my seemingly idiotic and baseless premise for my position, because he had--wait--a SETUP. Oh, and he had tested it thoroughly. Meaningless, but bully for him.

 

It's this kind of thing that I hear traders parroting, and sometimes I don't think they realize what they're even saying. "Find one setup and that's all you need." Really? And how many professional traders have a list of setups on their desks called "The Boomerang" and "The Dragon Tail" and "The Doogie Howser," and trade them faithfully every time? The market, to me, is more than just a bunch of setups. It's alive, breathing, and will kick your setup's ass from here to Timbuktu, especially if you insist on "sticking with the setup" every time you see it. The market loves to punish people who are lazy enough that they are not willing to learn how to trade, but who insist on learning "setups."

 

HEY!! Are you referencing when we exchanged contracts? When I was selling my long and you were initiating a short within a tick of each other??? :rofl:

[MightyMouse 12]

  joshdance said:

How so MM ?

 

People use the term probability as if a back tested pattern deemed to have x% of a chance of occurring, gives them an edge. It would if the events were normally distributed, but that is just not the case.

[SIUYA 11]

  MightyMouse said:

People use the term probability as if a back tested pattern deemed to have x% of a chance of occurring, gives them an edge. It would if the events were normally distributed, but that is just not the case.

 

you mean

a bullish break of a fingerlookinggood pattern after a bullish run in a bear market

is different to

a bullish break of the same fingerlookinggood pattern after a bearish fall in a bull market ?

 

dont worry - the same probability distribution patterns are used by options sellers and risk managers.....dont tell them....shhhh.

[wrbtrader 10]

The use of the phrase "price action trader" has become laughable lately because too many that use that phrase are traders that still indicators on their charts...usually just one or two indicators. Yet, when you ask them why they have indicators on their charts...they say the indicators have no impact on their trade decisions. :doh:

 

  joshdance said:

If I hear... "price action" ONE more time...

 

"Price action" has to be the biggest buzzphrase used by traders who know just enough to think they know what they are talking about, but who in fact usually don't have a clue. "What type of trader are you?" is bound to bring out many "I'm a price action trader" answers. Have you noticed how many vendors and marketers are using the phrase "price action" these days? It used to be cool to have fancy indicators. Now it seems to be cool to just have price bars or candles on the chart, and even better, to do a little jabbing and poking fun at anyone who has anything other than the market's price on the chart.

 

It's as if they worship the almighty "Price" and bow at his feet. The phrase "price then broke below..." irks me almost equally. Guess what guys? "Price" doesn't do anything. "Price" is not an entity. Now, the market can move up or down, but "price" cannot. Do you understand what a market is? Are you sure? Well, it's not the same as "price," and it's an important distinction.

[roztom 10]

  wrbtrader said:

The use of the phrase "price action trader" has become laughable lately because too many that use that phrase are traders that still indicators on their charts...usually just one or two indicators. Yet, when you ask them why they have indicators on their charts...they say the indicators have no impact on their trade decisions. :doh:

 

I'm not sure what price action is? Like UP & Down?

 

If it goes up, I go long, if it goes down, I go short...

[SIUYA 11]

wrbtrader - dont be too harsh

 

the indicators indicate the price action.

 

and isn't this the age old argument that even a price bar is an indicator of sorts !!!

 

all this has spurred me to think I will rephrase myself "I am a context trader."

 

....now how do I define that and get something to indicate it to me.

 

(wrb = also as a side note checked out your site....well done good work, highly recommended)

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

The phrase "expert advisor" for the forex strategies is a seriously annoying one.

 

Remember kids: an 'ex' is a has-been, and a 'spurt' is a drip under pressure

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

  roztom said:

I'm not sure what price action is? Like UP & Down?

 

If it goes up, I go long, if it goes down, I go short...

 

 

No, no, no, no, no! You've got it all wrong, Roztom! You obviously need lessons:

 

http://www.priceactionmasterclass.com

 

That'll be $2000 please . . .

 

(ps can't quite believe that the URL above hasn't actually been registered!)

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

  MightyMouse said:

People use the term probability as if a back tested pattern deemed to have x% of a chance of occurring, gives them an edge. It would if the events were normally distributed, but that is just not the case.

 

What if the high probability pattern was one for an event involving an abnormal distribution?

[joshdance 10]

  BlueHorseshoe said:

The phrase "expert advisor" for the forex strategies is a seriously annoying one.

 

Ah yes, MetaTrader... the software of choice for those who prefer a bit of antiquity in their trading.

[MightyMouse 12]

  BlueHorseshoe said:

What if the high probability pattern was one for an event involving an abnormal distribution?

 

Show me one and I'll be content. No time constraint, so take your time.

[Kiwi 16]

  joshdance said:

Ah yes, MetaTrader... the software of choice for those who prefer a bit of antiquity in their trading.

 

I still have metastock floppy disks somewhere. End of Day of course.

 

Then the joy of Trade Station 2000i

 

And some experiments with other things including metatrader over the years. But Sierra Chart has been my main squeeze since about 2003.

 

I, of course, trade price action at support and resistance (PASR). The best set-ups possible.

 

But I would encourage every newbie to try a bunch of indicators and trade with real money as early as possible. Nothing like being a donor to make you feel good about yourself. :rofl:

[Obsidian 10]

  Kiwi said:

I still have metastock floppy disks somewhere. End of Day of course...

 

do you have a floppy drive to read those disks?

[Roger Felton 10]

  joshdance said:

If I hear... "price action" ONE more time...

 

"Price action" has to be the biggest buzzphrase used by traders who know just enough to think they know what they are talking about, but who in fact usually don't have a clue. "What type of trader are you?" is bound to bring out many "I'm a price action trader" answers. Have you noticed how many vendors and marketers are using the phrase "price action" these days? It used to be cool to have fancy indicators. Now it seems to be cool to just have price bars or candles on the chart, and even better, to do a little jabbing and poking fun at anyone who has anything other than the market's price on the chart.

 

It's as if they worship the almighty "Price" and bow at his feet. The phrase "price then broke below..." irks me almost equally. Guess what guys? "Price" doesn't do anything. "Price" is not an entity. Now, the market can move up or down, but "price" cannot. Do you understand what a market is? Are you sure? Well, it's not the same as "price," and it's an important distinction.

 

"Now, the market can move up or down, but "price" cannot".

 

This is definitely the holy grail. I've been staring at charts for 30 years and never noticed that the Market goes up and down all day long while Price stands perfectly still because it "cannot" (move). What a revelation!

 

Next time one of my students says, "Price is now at 105.00 in CL, I can confidently tell them that is impossible because I just read that Market Price cannot change. It is steady state and cannot rise or fall. It'll be a hoot to read all the posts about how I've lost my mind.

[bj139 10]

  SIUYA said:

wrbtrader - dont be too harsh

 

the indicators indicate the price action.

 

and isn't this the age old argument that even a price bar is an indicator of sorts !!!

 

all this has spurred me to think I will rephrase myself "I am a context trader."

 

....now how do I define that and get something to indicate it to me.

 

(wrb = also as a side note checked out your site....well done good work, highly recommended)

 

When I read this, I was reminded that J. Livermore did not even use charts.

Then the very next post by mitsubishi has an avatar of J. Livermore.

Strange.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Even a price bar is a lagging indicator.

Does this mean anything significant?

What is a context trader?

[SpearPointTrader 10]

Well, I have to say, this is a fairly mean spirited, ego centric discussion.

 

Can you people be any more narrow minded?

 

These markets are ruled by various forces, ultimately rooted in the human mind, and the forces generated by human's physical needs. These are reoccurring. We need to eat every day, for example.

 

These forces are counter balanced by the reality of production. Although we need to eat every day, crops are only harvested in the fall, for example.They reoccur over, and over again as time marches forward (sort of like the Sun rises every morning, and sets in the evening).

 

These two combined become our supply/demand matrix.

 

The supply/demand matrix is reflected in the charts, that also cause various patterns that reoccur over, and over again in the price action.

 

For those of you who obviously do not know what price action is, it is when the price rises, or falls in comparison to a previous point in time. This can be plotted on a chart (which btw, is the entire purpose OF the chart)

 

Since the price action reflects these market forces fairly reliably, in that the same forces, reproduce the same patterns over, and over; one can learn to spot them early, and profit from trades based on the pattern to continue it's formation.

 

This is what is referred to as a 'Setup'

 

So maybe you guys might want to take a moment to stop bashing everything around you, and maybe consider it is you, who does not 'Get It'

[joshdance 10]

Thank you SpearPoint -- it seems you have a good handle on how you personally define these terms. My observation is that many people do not. More people should be like you. Thank you for your comments, and I appreciate more than anything dissenters who expose different points of view!

 

edit: Besides, SP, I said this in my first post:

 

 

  joshdance said:

And I have friends and awesome traders who use these, so this is in no way reflects my opinion of THEM, even though the phrases annoy me. This thread is meant to vent just a little, but is written mostly a little tongue and cheek and should not be interpreted in any truly serious way. So let's have some good clean fun, and hopefully we will not argue too much, as the tone is meant to be light

 

It's not personal, it's just in the spirit of joking.

Edited April 3, 2012 by joshdance