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Gekko78

Trading the YM

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New to futures ( not trading) and wanting to here from others that trade the YM. Not really interested in any other futures market at present as I just want to focus on the YM. I have a method that I used in the FX market that lends itself well to YM.

 

Please comment on the successes / failures that you have had in trading this contract.

 

 

Thanks !!

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Gekko,

 

It ultimately boils down to refining small differences in your personal resonances between various index instruments.

I personally still get my best results using YM and cash Dow charts for analysis, signals, triggers, etc ( … shorter time frame charts look n feel more ‘charty’ / less ‘blocky’ than ES to me, etc. and the tick by tick directional correlation with ES is virtually perfect) …but I actually do trades with it less and less intraday… even though fills haven't seemed to suffer that much, volume has just gotten too low for me… etc.

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more random thoughts...

 

The Russell 3000 is really the most representative index. The Dow has very ‘fishy weighting’. At first glance, the SP 500 logically ‘looks’ more comprehensive, but is as ‘narrow’ as the Dow really … you can mirror it very closely with an 'index' of `17 of its stocks, etc.

 

 

Also, it doesn’t get much attn. but denominating indexes in plain old nominal USD introduces some truly amazing misrepresentations in charts in longer term timeframes.

… peeps' eyes get a strange glaze over when I say things like

In the indexes, below a certain slope of ‘up’, ‘up’ is really ‘down’

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  zdo said:
Gekko,

 

It ultimately boils down to refining small differences in your personal resonances between various index instruments.

I personally still get my best results using YM and cash Dow charts for analysis, signals, triggers, etc ( … shorter time frame charts look n feel more ‘charty’ / less ‘blocky’ than ES to me, etc. and the tick by tick directional correlation with ES is virtually perfect) …but I actually do trades with it less and less intraday… even though fills haven't seemed to suffer that much, volume has just gotten too low for me… etc.

 

Zdo ,

 

Thanks for the response. The reason I chose the YM at first is that it has a small tick value size. I feel , since this is my first time trading futures , that a small tick size is the best for me right now. $12.50 on the ES is to much for me to handle right now. I use tick charts as well as I believe they give a better representation of price rather than time bars. I have been tweaking my method from the FX world on a demo account and so far has pretty good results , just like FX , market did.

 

The think that I am trying to figure out it how to manage the trades the best way. In FX I trades 2 mini lots , I used one for the trade target and let the other one run. In futures since the margin is different I am only starting out trading one contract , which is fine , but it doe snot lend itself well to letting winners run. I have seen many of my trades hit profit only to see them continue but I have already gotten out of the trade and I have a problem getting back in sometimes due to feeling like I am "chasing"

 

Gekko

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  Gekko78 said:
Zdo ,

 

Thanks for the response. The reason I chose the YM at first is that it has a small tick value size. I feel , since this is my first time trading futures , that a small tick size is the best for me right now. $12.50 on the ES is to much for me to handle right now. I use tick charts as well as I believe they give a better representation of price rather than time bars. I have been tweaking my method from the FX world on a demo account and so far has pretty good results , just like FX , market did.

 

The think that I am trying to figure out it how to manage the trades the best way. In FX I trades 2 mini lots , I used one for the trade target and let the other one run. In futures since the margin is different I am only starting out trading one contract , which is fine , but it doe snot lend itself well to letting winners run. I have seen many of my trades hit profit only to see them continue but I have already gotten out of the trade and I have a problem getting back in sometimes due to feeling like I am "chasing"

 

Gekko

 

 

The gods may be with you, but the odds are not.

If you are not capitalized well enough to be ‘significantly underleveraged’ at two cars YM, then seriously consider staying with mini fx’s until such time as you are more than adequately capitalized. In your fx trading, even consider dropping below mini fx sizing until … - seriously.

For one, if your system works best with / requires a ‘target’ contract and a ‘runner’ contract and you suddenly eliminate the’ runner’ component you have in essence not just tweaked your system – you have started using a discretely, wholly new (unproven) system.

... and, btw, single lot index trading is a tough game to play / win...

More generally, the challenges of trading are many, disparate, and are not subjectively very predictable. Our capacity to respond to these multi-faceted challenges is also a LOT more variable than most would ever imagine / predict about themselves. Even the exceptionally ‘Steady Eddie’s are subject to sudden and inexplicable acct killing fkups.

One of the best gifts you can give yourself in such an arena is staying power. Truly sufficient capitalization is a key component of real staying power.

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More "Sizing" thoughts …Just a couple sizing ‘what if’s?

 

What if the optimum sizing ratio for your trades =~

‘target’ portion : (to your) ‘runner’ portion = 12:7 ?

So, instead of sticking with mini sizing of two 10000’s, might you not be better off with ‘target’ sizing of 12000 and ‘runner’ sizing of 7000 ?

 

next …

 

but what if, through interpolative processing, the optimal – f estimates of your ‘target’ portion averages ~8000? You’re currently running at 10000 sizing - which is significantly to the right of your optimal – f. Ideally you are looking to run near a sweet spot to the left of your estimates of optimal –f…

So instead of 12000 for ‘target’ and 7000 for ‘runner’ sizing, might you not be better off (across the long term) to currently start near a ~ 7000 ‘target’ size and a ~4080 ‘runner’ size?

…with infinitely variable fx sizing as acct net asset increases ( to 7050:4010….then …. 12000:6996 …. ... ) couldn’t you can stay very close to your sweet spot size instead of continuously operating mis/over sized and ‘suffering’ between and during the quantum sizing jumps that ‘contract sizes’ impose on you ?…

 

... and how far from your sweet spot would one (or two) size in YM take you ?

 

… just a couple off topic, (really ?) made up sizing ‘what if’s?

hth

Edited by zdo

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  zdo said:

…with infinitely variable fx sizing as acct net asset increases ( to 7050:4010….then …. 12000:6996 …. ... ) couldn’t you can stay very close to your sweet spot size instead of continuously operating mis/over sized and ‘suffering’ between and during the quantum sizing jumps that ‘contract sizes’ impose on you ?…

 

ZDO's advice here is all very generous, but I think the value of this particular point is massively under-emphasized.

 

One way to see exactly how it affects an equity curve for something with fixed contract sizes is to test using 1000 x equity, and then divide the trade-by-trade results by 1000. This will simulate the outcome you would get if you were able to trade fractions (thousandths) of a contract.

 

BlueHorseshoe

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"fractions of a contract" = OandA

 

(not affiliated,etc. have no finacial interest, yada yada....

I don't even have much money with them these days....

just plugging OA bcse they offer infinite sizing)

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  zdo said:
The gods may be with you, but the odds are not.

If you are not capitalized well enough to be ‘significantly underleveraged’ at two cars YM, then seriously consider staying with mini fx’s until such time as you are more than adequately capitalized. In your fx trading, even consider dropping below mini fx sizing until … - seriously.

For one, if your system works best with / requires a ‘target’ contract and a ‘runner’ contract and you suddenly eliminate the’ runner’ component you have in essence not just tweaked your system – you have started using a discretely, wholly new (unproven) system.

... and, btw, single lot index trading is a tough game to play / win...

More generally, the challenges of trading are many, disparate, and are not subjectively very predictable. Our capacity to respond to these multi-faceted challenges is also a LOT more variable than most would ever imagine / predict about themselves. Even the exceptionally ‘Steady Eddie’s are subject to sudden and inexplicable acct killing fkups.

One of the best gifts you can give yourself in such an arena is staying power. Truly sufficient capitalization is a key component of real staying power.

 

 

Thanks Zdo and Blue ,

 

I think it depends on ones own mental state for trading whatever the amount of capital you have. For me , I actually prefer starting with a small account size. I did this when I started in the FX market. The reason being is that having a smaller account size forced me to only take the best set ups when I first started. My thoughts are having to much capital in the beginning may have an effect on the amount of risk you are willing to take. At least for me this held true. With $10,000 I would be more likely to trade more often due to feeling like "its ok" because I have $10,000 where as say, $2,000 I am forced to focus on the best set ups for the trades working out and cutting losses short. I used to have problem with cutting losses until I cut my capital way down. This forced me to protect what I had and trained my brain into preservation of capital mode.

 

Again everyone is different but this is what worked(s) for me. :thumbs up:

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  Patuca said:
why don't you trade the nq with one contract? i find it to be more directional than say the ES and that it also leads the ES directionally much of the time.

 

 

I had not really considered the NQ , I will research it over the weekend and see if my method fits it.

 

 

Thanks for suggesting :)

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Hello all,

 

Do you use Market Breath for YM trading? And how to apply to trade YM?Thank you!

 

I use Think or Swim plattform for Market Breath watching! Does have any correlation YM with: NYSE Index, NASDAQ index, SP500 index, SP100 index, USA index, Russell index ... and what's best correlation! Thank you ! And sorry my English!

5aa711a975544_MBThinkorswim.JPG.517f8e199f8c12fce7bdb1f9fd7b3fd4.JPG

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  Patuca said:
why don't you trade the nq with one contract? i find it to be more directional than say the ES and that it also leads the ES directionally much of the time.

 

So I have to thank you for suggesting this....I was up last night and today back testing my trading strategy on the NQ. Not only does it apply well to it , it looks like it actually works much better on NQ.

 

The only thing that I am going to have to adjust is the speed of the NQ is much faster than that of the YM. I use tick charts and the setting that I use on the charts creates a new candle about once a minute , sometimes just seconds, so I will need to adjust to that and get used to the speed.

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  nkune said:
Hello all,

 

Do you use Market Breath for YM trading? And how to apply to trade YM?Thank you!

 

I use Think or Swim plattform for Market Breath watching! Does have any correlation YM with: NYSE Index, NASDAQ index, SP500 index, SP100 index, USA index, Russell index ... and what's best correlation! Thank you ! And sorry my English!

 

Nkune,

 

Sorry my friend I am afraid I will not be much help here as I do not use that ,or any other kind of stuff like it. I trade "almost" naked. I only have 1 MA on there and price......I find all the other stuff gets in the way of the only true leading indicator..........price.

 

Hopefully someone else may be able to answer for you.

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  nkune said:
Hello all,

 

Do you use Market Breath for YM trading? And how to apply to trade YM?Thank you!

 

I use Think or Swim plattform for Market Breath watching! Does have any correlation YM with: NYSE Index, NASDAQ index, SP500 index, SP100 index, USA index, Russell index ... and what's best correlation! Thank you ! And sorry my English!

 

You're probably looking for the $TICK (or, for the Nasdaq, the $TICKQ). Vols of advancers and decliners aren't going to do you much good if you're daytrading.

 

The following explains how to use the $TICKQ, but it all applies to the $TICK as well. Click here.

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  Gekko78 said:
So I have to thank you for suggesting this....I was up last night and today back testing my trading strategy on the NQ. Not only does it apply well to it , it looks like it actually works much better on NQ.

 

The only thing that I am going to have to adjust is the speed of the NQ is much faster than that of the YM. I use tick charts and the setting that I use on the charts creates a new candle about once a minute , sometimes just seconds, so I will need to adjust to that and get used to the speed.

your welcome. hope it all works out well for you.

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  Gekko78 said:
Thanks Zdo and Blue ,

 

I think it depends on ones own mental state for trading whatever the amount of capital you have. For me , I actually prefer starting with a small account size. I did this when I started in the FX market. The reason being is that having a smaller account size forced me to only take the best set ups when I first started. My thoughts are having to much capital in the beginning may have an effect on the amount of risk you are willing to take. At least for me this held true. With $10,000 I would be more likely to trade more often due to feeling like "its ok" because I have $10,000 where as say, $2,000 I am forced to focus on the best set ups for the trades working out and cutting losses short. I used to have problem with cutting losses until I cut my capital way down. This forced me to protect what I had and trained my brain into preservation of capital mode.

 

Again everyone is different but this is what worked(s) for me. :thumbs up:

 

Do you realize how many of your peers are running that same

‘I try to stay in an underdog mindset and capitalization to keep me from fkn up’

script?

… and how few of them see any underlying issues and dynamics with such a tactic either?

… that across time it is certainly no way to consistently bring forth your ideal performance self on a day to day basis...

… that no consistent winners across all the performance games ( in poker, pro sports, trading, etc.) turn to it to keep them in a “preservation of capital mode”...

 

But let’s just ignore all that and look at it in the initial way one more time.

What if your size running one (or two ) NQ is to the right of your optimal – s(ize)?

Worse, what if it is to the right of your optimal – f ?

Edited by zdo
spling gramer fomat

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  zdo said:
Do you realize how many of your peers are running that same

‘I try to stay in an underdog mindset and capitalization to keep me from fkn up’

script?

… and how few of them see any underlying issues and dynamics with such a tactic either?

… that across time it is certainly no way to consistently bring forth your ideal performance self on a day to day basis...

… that no consistent winners across all the performance games ( in poker, pro sports, trading, etc.) turn to it to keep them in a “preservation of capital mode”...

 

But let’s just ignore all that and look at it in the initial way one more time.

What if your size running one (or two ) NQ is to the right of your optimal – s(ize)?

Worse, what if it is to the right of your optimal – f ?

 

All I can tell you is , like I stated on my other post, this is what has worked for me . As I build my account it also builds my confidence in said trading method which then also builds the emotional side as well. In my experience statistics are fine and dandy but I have seem many people be statistically right on paper but be dead wrong in reality.

 

Like I said this is just me . If all the math and the calculations behind it help then by all means utilize it. But , for me I know it does not matter. I do look at odds and such but in reality a trade can only go 1 of 3 the ways.......Win , Loss or BE so 33% is fine for me ... really I think its more like 50/50 its either going to work out or its not....what other option is there?

 

You mention poker .......if you look at the best players who have won the most money over time , they are also NOT the players that have won the most hands. In fact many of them will tell you that learning when to give up and only play when the opportunity presents itself which allows them to stay in the game longer is how you win. That is what I do when I trade , the way I trade I have certain rules that have to be met before I take a trade. If ALL those rules are not met ( there is only 3) then no trade for me. Sometimes it does not work but Most times it does and that's all the edge I need. I don't look for 90% accuracy ......I have losses that are small......5-10 ticks but my winners are much greater than that ........that is all it takes ............you know cut losses short and let winners run ...it works if you know how to use it. properly.

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gekko78, I mentioned poker in quite a different way than you mentioned poker ... anyways ...

 

... glad to hear you've got it together...

please just ignore my posts ... consider that this 'repeated' quote is directed at one of the 'peers' I mentioned earlier

"But let’s just ignore all that and look at it in the initial way one more time.

What if your size running one (or two ) NQ is to the right of your optimal – s(ize)?

Worse, what if it is to the right of your optimal – f ?"

 

... hope I haven't messed up your thread.

 

All the best,

 

zdo

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  zdo said:
gekko78, I mentioned poker in quite a different way than you mentioned poker ... anyways ...

 

... glad to hear you've got it together...

please just ignore my posts ... consider that this 'repeated' quote is directed at one of the 'peers' I mentioned earlier

"But let’s just ignore all that and look at it in the initial way one more time.

What if your size running one (or two ) NQ is to the right of your optimal – s(ize)?

Worse, what if it is to the right of your optimal – f ?"

 

... hope I haven't messed up your thread.

 

All the best,

 

zdo

 

I would be happy to answer this but I am afraid I do not quite understand what you are asking here.

 

Thanks

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  Gekko78 said:
All I can tell you is , like I stated on my other post, this is what has worked for me . As I build my account it also builds my confidence in said trading method which then also builds the emotional side as well. In my experience statistics are fine and dandy but I have seem many people be statistically right on paper but be dead wrong in reality.

 

Like I said this is just me . If all the math and the calculations behind it help then by all means utilize it. But , for me I know it does not matter. I do look at odds and such but in reality a trade can only go 1 of 3 the ways.......Win , Loss or BE so 33% is fine for me ... really I think its more like 50/50 its either going to work out or its not....what other option is there?

 

You mention poker .......if you look at the best players who have won the most money over time , they are also NOT the players that have won the most hands. In fact many of them will tell you that learning when to give up and only play when the opportunity presents itself which allows them to stay in the game longer is how you win. That is what I do when I trade , the way I trade I have certain rules that have to be met before I take a trade. If ALL those rules are not met ( there is only 3) then no trade for me. Sometimes it does not work but Most times it does and that's all the edge I need. I don't look for 90% accuracy ......I have losses that are small......5-10 ticks but my winners are much greater than that ........that is all it takes ............you know cut losses short and let winners run ...it works if you know how to use it. properly.

 

You're on the right track, Gekko. Congratulations for knowing yourself.

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  DbPhoenix said:
You're on the right track, Gekko. Congratulations for knowing yourself.

 

Thanks ........an old friend of my dads told me a long time ago ... " Trading can is hard for everyone, but it does not have to be . People like to over complicate things when the think something appears to easy. Don not make that mistake. Simple is better"

 

 

I ignored this advice when I first started trading. I was sucked into the "best indicator" or "best system" trap like so many others. It was only after I remembered hearing this that I thought about trying it out. I am here to tell you that it is sound advice.

 

I took a step back , stripped my charts of everything and focused on what he taught me about the market when I was a teenager. Now I use 2 things on my chart in addition to price that's it. No fancy indicators , no heat maps or anything like that ......Everything I use comes standard with every charting package I have ever seen including MT4 and the free websites like stockcharts.com and the like.

 

I follow 3 simple rules and ALL of them are not met , then I don't trade period. I wait for the next set up.

 

Today , as an example , I have had a total of 15 set ups on the YM producing 15 wins an 0 losses for a total of 34 ticks. . Now this is NOT typical I usually have at least 1 or 2 losses.... but those are usually 3-4 ticks. I am very tight with MM in order to not blow up my account which I have done in the past.

 

Yes I could have had more ticks than 34 but my method has a set number of ticks that it must reach and then I am out. When I start trading more contracts then I will have more ticks but , to me , $170 is not bad for 3 hrs work. My goals is usually about $50 a day.

 

There is a "holy grail" It is the system you design for yourself and trust in ......it is not 100% correct on paper but it is 100% in your mind and you do not question it.

 

I have found my own holy grail ......yours awaits also ....just take the time to develop it , learn it and TRUST it.

 

You do not need 25 indicators telling you things ....

 

Simpler is better.

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  zdo said:
gekko78, I mentioned poker in quite a different way than you mentioned poker ... anyways ...

 

... glad to hear you've got it together...

please just ignore my posts ... consider that this 'repeated' quote is directed at one of the 'peers' I mentioned earlier

"But let’s just ignore all that and look at it in the initial way one more time.

What if your size running one (or two ) NQ is to the right of your optimal – s(ize)?

Worse, what if it is to the right of your optimal – f ?"

 

... hope I haven't messed up your thread.

 

All the best,

 

zdo

 

Since I am not a statistician I cannot really comment on this ....I am but a simple trader who just tries to buy low and sell high or sell high and buy low........sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't ......... I judge my trading method and skills by the number I see in my excel sheet at the end of the week hopefully its a + but if it is a - then thats ok to......As long as I have more +'s than -'s I'm good.

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Having enough trading capital is extremely important to long-term success. As part of the 3 cardinal rules of trading:

1> Go with the trend

2> Cut losses short

3> Let profits run

 

It's going to be a challenge maintaining consistent profitablility if there isn't at least 1 YM contract that can go with the trend as you move the stop price in the direction of the trade.

 

To be successful with only 1 contract, you'd have to have at least a 2:1 risk/reward ratio along with a high probability setup.

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Gold’s Outlook – Uptrend may continue, but US jobs data could trigger profit-taking. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business.   Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report.   Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar.   Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding of how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE!   Click HERE to READ more Market news.   Michalis Efthymiou HFMarkets   Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. 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    • Date: 31st March 2025.   Trump Confirms Tariffs on All Countries, Sending Stocks Lower.   The NASDAQ continues to trade lower due to the US confirming the latest tariffs will be on all countries. In addition to this, bearish volatility also is largely due to the higher inflation data from Friday. The NASDAQ declines to its lowest price since September 11th 2024. Core PCE Price Index - Inflation Increases Again! The PCE Price Index read 2.5% aligning with expert forecasts not triggering any alarm bells. However, the Core PCE Price Index rose from 0.3% to 0.4% MoM and from 2.7% to 2.8% YoY, signalling growing inflationary pressure. This increases the likelihood that the Federal Reserve will maintain elevated interest rates for an extended period. The NASDAQ fell 2.60% due to the higher inflation reading which is known to pressure the stock market due to pressure on consumer demand and a more hawkish Federal Reserve. Boston Fed President Susan Collins recently commented that tariffs could drive up inflation, though the long-term impact remains uncertain. She told journalists that a short-term spike is the most probable outcome but believes the current pause in monetary policy adjustments is appropriate given the prevailing uncertainties. Although, certain investment banks such as JP Morgan actually believe the Federal Reserve will be forced into cutting rates. This is due to expectations that the economy will struggle under the new trade policy. For example, JP Morgan expects the Federal Reserve to delay rate cuts but will quickly cut towards the end of 2025. Market Risk Appetite Takes a Hit! A big factor for the day is the drop in the risk appetite of investors. This can be seen from the VIX which is up almost 6%, Gold which is trading 1.30% higher and the Japanese Yen which is the day’s best performing currency. Most safe haven assets, bar the US Dollar, increase in value. It is also worth noting that all indices are decreasing in value during this morning's Asian session with the Nikkei225 and NASDAQ witnessing the strongest decline. Previously the stock market rose in value as investors heard rumours that tariffs would only be on certain countries. This bullish swing occurred between March 14th and 25th. Over the weekend, President Donald Trump indicated that the upcoming tariffs would apply to all countries, not just those with the largest trade imbalances with the US. NASDAQ - Technical Analysis In terms of technical analysis, the NASDAQ continues to obtain indications that sellers control the price action. The price opens on a bearish price gap measuring 0.30% and trades below all Moving Averages on all timeframes. The NASDAQ also trades below the VWAP and almost 100% of the most influential components (stocks) are declining in value.     The next significant support level is at $18,313, and the resistance level stands at $20,367.95. Key Takeaway Points: NASDAQ falls to its lowest since September 2024 as the US confirms tariffs on all countries, adding to inflation concerns. Core PCE inflation rises to 0.4% MoM and 2.8% YoY, increasing the likelihood of prolonged high interest rates. Investor risk appetite drops as VIX jumps 6%, gold gains 1.3%, and safe-haven assets outperform. NASDAQ shows strong bearish momentum, trading below key technical levels with support at $18,313 and resistance at $20,367.95. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business.   Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report.   Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar.   Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding of how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE!   Click HERE to READ more Market news.   Michalis Efthymiou HFMarkets   Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in Leveraged Products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
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