John's E-Mini Challenge

[Tams 20]

. .

[Tams 20]

I have this strange feeling... some one is attempting to have a conversation with me.

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

There are only two or three people here that I am persuaded actually trade. The rest talk the talk, frequently and at length, but they provide zero evidence that they trade.

 

I think everybody who posts on TL but doesn't currently trade should be dragged outside and burnt. How dare they visit a forum to try and learn more about trading before committing real money? These non-traders are the lowest of the low . . .

 

BlueHorseshoe

[DbPhoenix 42]

I think everybody who posts on TL but doesn't currently trade should be dragged outside and burnt. How dare they visit a forum to try and learn more about trading before committing real money? These non-traders are the lowest of the low . . .

 

BlueHorseshoe

 

This thread isn't about everybody who posts on TL but those who brag about what great traders they are, including those who propose that others can be just as great if only they'll buy the great trader's software or course or whatever.

 

As for those who visit a forum to learn more about trading, caveat emptor.

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

including those who propose that others can be just as great if only they'll buy the great trader's software or course or whatever.

 

Or their e-book?

 

BlueHorseshoe

[karoshiman 10]

 

...

 

And, no, one can't post real-time trades on a message board. I've been online for 15 years, and I know all about how "real-time" trades are faked, even in a "trading" room.

 

...

 

 

 

Hi DbPhoenix,

 

Are you referring to scalping or other very short-term trades? How can this be faked other than using short time delays when posting?

 

Regards,

k

[DbPhoenix 42]

Or their e-book?

 

BlueHorseshoe

 

Which contains little that isn't freely available in the Wyckoff Forum and always has been.

 

All the information you wanted regarding retracements, for example.

[DbPhoenix 42]

Hi DbPhoenix,

 

Are you referring to scalping or other very short-term trades? How can this be faked other than using short time delays when posting?

 

Regards,

k

 

Scalping is especially easy to fake since by the time the trade is posted the entry -- and possibly the entire trade -- is already gone.

 

I hadn't planned on hijacking JohnE's thread. If Patuca hadn't dragged my name into it, I wouldn't have seen any reason to intrude. But, as long as the question of fakery is of interest, I offer an old post that is probably the best I've read for those who are looking to evaluate vendors' claims:

After more than 5 years' full-time trading and about 100 trade rooms later, I have a few thoughts about how to save yourself a bundle of headaches and heartaches and maybe a few bucks as you search for a trade room.

 

First question is why do you need a trade room? Simple answer is that in the beginning it can help you get through some of the learning curve, and you have a place for some some sympathetic response and support for your trading woes. Complicated answer is you really need guidance but cannot afford a 1-on-1 mentorship.

 

A good trade room should help you make money while you learn. Unfortunately, with 100s of methods and as many trade rooms out there, how can you wade through the junk and concentrate on the better ones?

I have a few criteria that I think are an absolute must for a real trade room where your chances of succeeding and MAKING MONEY WHILE LEARNING are high.

 

Number one - You must be able to see the moderating traders charts in real time.

 

Number two - You must be able to see the trades entered in real time either through the moderators order dom or chart trader or some method where it is apparent that the trade was entered, filled, and managed.

 

Number three - You must be able to follow the trades, or at least most of them. This issue gets a bit difficult in a fast market and may need some adjusting.

 

To my mind there are three basic types of trading rooms. One is where it's just pure trading, minimal instruction. The other is where the education has more emphasis, and trading takes a back seat...hence few trades. The third is a hybrid: a steady stream of trading towards a set room goal, some Q&A once the daily goal is met, and a scheduled series of ongoing educational sessions in addition to the room's daily trading. So, first you need to decide which is right for you.

 

Here's a tip. If you are considering a trading education in a particular trading method because you have none of your own, then look for the education emphasis. Otherwise, if you have a few good setups you know, and have some of your trading education already underway, then look for a trading room that will add to your knowledge and help you make money as you learn their methods and tools. If, however, you have traded a bit and have some tools and know some setups and yet nothing is working or going well for you, then look to the hybrid.

 

Regardless, remember the #1, #2 and #3 rule. DO NOT SETTLE FOR ANYTHING LESS. If a person hangs out their shingle and asks for your money in return for a service, then you better make sure that service is to your liking. If you are unable to see the trade moderator's charts and his trade entries then pass that place up. It may be a good place, it may not. But without the visual verifiable evidence, you will find yourself not only having to watch your own chart but also having to compile in your head what is happening and keep that picture going along with all the other pressures of trading.

 

I do not care what excuse is given; there is no excuse for not showing real-time moderating trades taken in real time. Technology is not an issue, money cannot possibly be the issue, so it must be something else? Let's see...fear, exposure, stop fluffing, doubling up or bad trading habits or what? You tell me.

 

So, there is the absolute newbie (and it's going to be painful) who really needs a lot of luck to avoid the garbage rooms and there is the trader who is just looking to improve and there is the trader who really needs a better set of tools and methods to get him out of his funk.

 

So if you have found a room then the best way to research the room is to spend a few weeks just listening and watching. We are conditioned for immediate response syndrome, instant gratification syndrome and these are detrimental to your trading health. We can probably all agree on that. If you do take the time to watch and listen, then keep a notebook and write down every trade call, the time and the particulars: targets hit, stops, etc., and review it after market while looking at your own chart. Don't even look at your own chart while doing the assessment. Concentrate on what's going on in the room because if you decide on that room, you are going to have to do the next very important thing to get the most out of the room: trust the trading moderator and his trade calls. Why? Because you want to be able to make money while you learn.

 

So your next task is to see if the room makes sense to you. Can you follow the logic of the trade moderator. If he is a really good trader, he may be a lousy moderator and vice versa. So you need to know that before you join. Look for verifiable results. Verifiable results are the trade records 1st hand...not some spreadsheet made up afterwards, or some list of trades posted in a chat window (even if in real time). In Ninja it's pretty easy. Look for the trade list records unadulterated right out of Ninja. Look for the summary records.

 

I have heard a lot of traders complain that sim doesn't count. Well, I think that is wrong thinking. What you need to see is the trade time of entry, the target completion and the stop. Add a tick of slippage in one direction, if you like, to the trade and see what it looks like. Often, a moderator will move to sim if he has hit his daily goal. The better moderators are not at all shy about letting you know they have moved to sim. I think it very unreasonable of traders who insist that a moderator continue to endlessly trade throughout the day without some kind of stopping criteria. The concepts of over trading, pointless trading, mental fatigue, and plain stupidity come to mind if anyone thinks that trading without some kind of daily goal or quota is going to make you a better trader. On the contrary. So why should a moderator who trades his own money be forced to practice bad trading habits just because you as a member may have strolled into the trade room at 10:56 a.m. and want a winning trade? Well, guess what? By 10:56 a.m. most good traders are done for the day! So, once the daily goal is hit and if the moderator is any good, then you should not have any problems with his moving to sim. What's important is does he continue to call winning trades? Do the tools continue to give high probability setups? Can you see his trades?

 

So, now you have a room you think is going to work for you. You took the trial, you signed up for 1 month. BTW, Do not accept a room where you are required to sign up for a longer specified term...this is bs. If the room is a good room then there should exist the confidence that you will be so pleased and satisfied that you will return of your own desire.

 

Now, remember the part about trusting the moderator's trading? This is where it is important that you accept that fact and live with it. You are not going to catch every trade call...no matter what room you are in. Its just the way it is. Hesitation, you coughed just as the trade was called, a bug distracted you...whatever...its going to happen that you will miss a couple. So, the bottom line is that to get the most out of any trade room AFTER you have done your homework and decided is to take every room trade, period.

 

Your homework should already have told you the performance expectation, the style of the rooms moderating trader, the basic methodology and trade setup rules, etc. Your job now is to learn the method and the setups in great detail, practice them under guidance, and make money while you learn.

 

I have been in some pretty crappy rooms (now I know they were crappy) and some pretty decent rooms (of course these are the ones I abandoned because I did not have my own act together). Currently I do not need a trade room. If you are at that point then congratulations! If not, then even if you join any trade room, remember to look forward to the day when you can graduate and trade independently, consistently successfully, and live off the profits of your hard-earned accomplishment.

 

--edabreu

[JohnE 10]

That part that bothers me most is that now here at TL you can be a vendor and have threads dedicated to promoting your software etc but you don't need to be held accountable for the quality or effectiveness of the product. It makes it seem that TL endorses the products.

 

Years ago I don't remember TL being like this. So there is a bigger issue as to WHY TL is letting vendors promote so easily.

 

Lets bring back the old days and standards. Is it any wonder that the threads have no participation ? The moderators need to get it together. Just some advice. Take or leave it .

 

John

[Tams 20]

That part that bothers me most is that now here at TL you can be a vendor and have threads dedicated to promoting your software etc but you don't need to be held accountable for the quality or effectiveness of the product. It makes it seem that TL endorses the products.

 

Years ago I don't remember TL being like this. So there is a bigger issue as to WHY TL is letting vendors promote so easily.

 

Lets bring back the old days and standards. Is it any wonder that the threads have no participation ? The moderators need to get it together. Just some advice. Take or leave it .

 

John

Not just reckless promotion,

if you ask any "difficult" questions that may embarrass the vendor, your post gets deleted.

[DbPhoenix 42]

That part that bothers me most is that now here at TL you can be a vendor and have threads dedicated to promoting your software etc but you don't need to be held accountable for the quality or effectiveness of the product. It makes it seem that TL endorses the products.

 

Years ago I don't remember TL being like this. So there is a bigger issue as to WHY TL is letting vendors promote so easily.

 

Lets bring back the old days and standards. Is it any wonder that the threads have no participation ? The moderators need to get it together. Just some advice. Take or leave it .

 

John

 

 

I don't disagree with you, but you may be swimming against the tide. Ya wanna see vendors? Try Trade2Win. Or BigMikeTrading. And yet they can boast far greater participation than TL. Why? Most likely because that's what beginners want. Big money in Forex. Easy money in futures. Huge profits in options.

 

I suggest you do your best to ignore it. You can ignore members, you can ignore threads. Just seek out like-minded people and go about your business.

 

Of course, there's always Elite Trader

[MightyMouse 12]

That part that bothers me most is that now here at TL you can be a vendor and have threads dedicated to promoting your software etc but you don't need to be held accountable for the quality or effectiveness of the product. It makes it seem that TL endorses the products.

 

Years ago I don't remember TL being like this. So there is a bigger issue as to WHY TL is letting vendors promote so easily.

 

Lets bring back the old days and standards. Is it any wonder that the threads have no participation ? The moderators need to get it together. Just some advice. Take or leave it .

 

John

 

John,

 

There was a thread that dealt with the issue of vendors and the outcome was the "C" on their chest unlike the Nuremberg laws in NAZI Germany, but the rule at least helps a member identify the vendor and it is up to you to decide the good or bad intent of the vendor. Most on here get grilled pretty well and you can find plenty info if you choose.

 

MM

[Tams 20]

John,

 

There was a thread that dealt with the issue of vendors and the outcome was the "C" on their chest unlike the Nuremberg laws in NAZI Germany, but the rule at least helps a member identify the vendor and it is up to you to decide the good or bad intent of the vendor. Most on here get grilled pretty well and you can find plenty info if you choose.

 

MM

you can't grill them anymore, your "skeptical" posts will get deleted.

[Tams 20]

There is a fish born every day, every minute, every second. The vendors might be scammers, but there are lots of desperate fish looking for quick profit, and the skammer's fast talk of fast profit is exactly what they want to hear. Such is life.

[Bobh59 10]

That part that bothers me most is that now here at TL you can be a vendor and have threads dedicated to promoting your software etc but you don't need to be held accountable for the quality or effectiveness of the product. It makes it seem that TL endorses the products.

 

Years ago I don't remember TL being like this. So there is a bigger issue as to WHY TL is letting vendors promote so easily.

 

Lets bring back the old days and standards. Is it any wonder that the threads have no participation ? The moderators need to get it together. Just some advice. Take or leave it .

 

John

 

"Free" educators aren't held accountable either and they greatly outnumber fee based ones. In fact the other forums mentioned in another reply are playgrounds for monopoly money traders but they both have special rules regarding vendors yet welcome all pretenders with open arms.

 

Once upon a time I offered real-time training (glad I did it once but would never do it again) so maybe I have a different perspective than most. But it seems to me the best approach is simply to focus on the content of a post(s) instead of whether or not the person is a vendor.

[Tams 20]

what the hell does that even mean?

 

l o l !

 

 

 

double talk at its finest.