John's E-Mini Challenge

[JohnE 10]

I use to get a lot out of these threads so I am disappointed currently. Let me make a suggestion. Lets have Jigsaw and Predictor start an emini trading contest either sim or real for 1- 3 months so they can establish a track record to further promote their software.

 

Personally I don't like to see promotion on these forums but I guess if it has to happen then lets see it happen in a separate thread. As far as I know Predictor has at least two websites and Dinoysustoast has at least one so we know they aren't making all their income just from trading.

 

I'm not looking to debate the pros and cons of a trading contest. We don't need to hear:

 

My lawyer won't let me do it or I don't have time or any other excuse why it can't be done. It doesn't need to be complicated. We just want to see some consistent results and that you can practice what you both preach.

 

I realize that keeping ones name out on forums with either good or bad feedback eventually helps promote websites but please don't drag this on any longer.

 

It is too difficult for me to focus on time stamps of posts in order to get a feel of when or where order flow imbalances are happening. Posting that kind of stuff is a waste of time and doesn't give anyone a true feel of what can be done by interpreting order flow.

 

Hopefully we can move on from here and see some real results.

 

John

[Predictor 11]

John,

First let me clarify that my company is OrderFlowDashPro and I use AlphaReveal for reading the tape. There are some real misunderstandings about my software, my claims, and what I am doing here. Let me try to address your concerns...

 

1. Who is your software developed for? What are your claims regarding it?

 

The software was developed for myself, an experienced tape reader and trader. I've stated the software is the most advanced tape reading software ever developed. I think this is evident with what we've already shown -- some of the most powerful features haven't been demonstrated yet. I strongly believe that my product offers both the easiest way to read the tape (and order flow) and the clearest picture of the order flow and order book imbalances ever developed.

 

We have thus both the most advanced and the easiest to read picture of the order flow. However, it is up to the individual trader to make money using this information. Really a lot of people misunderstand and think that I developed the software to help novice traders. I developed the software primarily for professional, profitable traders and aspiring futures traders. Sure, I do feel that most active discretionary futures traders could derive benefit from our software. While I've been encouraged to provide training and it is something we're looking at-- it is not something we're offering right now.

 

2. Why do you post live trade calls?

 

I post my trade calls to help me stay in optimal flow with the market. Maintaining flow state was one of the guiding principles that went into the development of our software. I also posted the live market calls to encourage other traders to post live calls and forward looking analysis. It was my feeling that a thread "day trading the e-mini" would be best focused on forward looking analysis or live market analysis whereas historical calls, help for novices etc, would be more suitable for other threads -- perhaps "e-mini anaylsis and training".

 

For me, posting the trade calls is primarily for my benefit and secondarily for the benefit of other highly attuned active traders. They aren't designed for others to be able to copy me nor for the casual follower of the market.

 

3. Do you have a track record and how does it relate to your product?

 

I don't thinking "trading ability" is a good way to evaluate the quality or suitability of a program -- except in one aspect for me. The one aspect is that I made a choice to use my product for live trading even from the very beginning. This gave me great insight for product improvements, and incentive to "get things right" . But, just as an aside, yes I had 2 of the top ranked futures systems at C2.

 

4. Were you using this thread to promote your software?

 

I have not linked or even mentioned my software in this thread except in relation to questions or concerns regarding it or when it would be educational or a direct statement of fact. To the contrary, I've tried to lead by example by posting live analysis.

 

John, I agree that if other traders followed my lead and started posting their live market and forward looking analysis then this would be the best thread possible. I do feel that most of the past looking analysis, novice help, product related stuff, and so forth would be best for other threads though. I think "E-mini Analysis & Instruction" could be useful.

 

Curtis

Edited January 12, 2013 by Predictor

[JohnE 10]

Curtis,

 

It sounds like you aren't willing to step up to the challenge of demonstrating that YOU can be profitable actually trading your own software for 1-3 months. Is this a true reading on your reply ?

 

I'm not really interested in any other responses at this time as it all just sounds like promotion and I don't want to prolong that here.

 

Posting your read on the market here as you have been doing is just too difficult to actually follow and I will assume it is rather meaningless based on my own view and the lack of interest here on the forum.

 

So lets get you to post an actual track record along with Jigsaw so we can monitor some actual results over a few months. I am not looking for excuses like I said in my post yesterday nor do I want big responses that divert from my request.

 

You can either prove that you can trade your own product or you can't. What is your answer ?

 

John

[Predictor 11]

John,

 

I've read your questions, and I think if you listen to where I'm coming from then you'll see my perspective. First, I believe that I invented incredibly powerful, innovative and potentially market leading software. As such, I don't want other companies to try to share in the momentum and excitement that exists for OrderFlowDashPro's AlphaReveal.

 

The next question is about track records and so forth. For this, you have to go back to the software itself. The software doesn't give signals. It just processes market information more intelligently and displays it in incredibly useful forms.

 

I hear where you're coming from but one just as easily claim that offering a "track record" for a program that doesn't provide signals and requires discretionary trading to be disingenuous.

 

At least for right now, it just doesn't make any sense to me. It might could in some form but not right now and not in the form you suggested or for the purposes that you're thinking of. John if you have more questions or suggestions then feel free to message them to me in private or email them to us.

 

Thanks,

Curtis

[JohnE 10]

Curtis, If the software is so useful as your quote below implies then I don't think it asking too much to have you prove it's creator can actually use it to make money.

 

If the creator can't find a way to make money than how are we suppose to make money with it ?

 

I have your answer and you are telling me that you donot accept the challenge and cannot prove to me that you can make money with your software over a period of time.

 

Lets end this here for you and I will wait to see if Jigsaw replies. I will notify Jigsaw through private message here and from his website so he knows of my requests and can't claim ignorance.

 

I really don't want to drag this on and I would appreciate it if you don't reply to me anymore.

 

. For this, you have to go back to the software itself. The software doesn't give signals. It just processes market information more intelligently and displays it in incredibly useful forms.

[DionysusToast 10]

Well, no PM yet but I just noticed the post.

 

So let me get the terms of this competition right...

 

I compete against nobody for 3 months.

 

At the end of 3 months, I publish my earnings on this forum to show that I am a legitimate trader.

 

On the opposing side, the person I am competing against will publish nothing.

 

Are these the terms you are proposing?

 

Is there a prize for being the winner?

Edited January 14, 2013 by DionysusToast

[Patuca 13]

Well, no PM yet but I just noticed the post.

johnE has probally fled the forum

 

So let me get the terms of this competition right...

 

I compete against nobody for 3 months.

correct

 

At the end of 3 months, I publish my earnings on this forum to show that I am a legitimate trader.

thats the idea.

 

On the opposing side, the person I am competing against will publish nothing.

correct..i think he is pissed off about the whole idea. predictor doesn't want anyone telling him to prove he can predict.

 

Are these the terms you are proposing?

no mr johnE is proposing this contest.

 

Is there a prize for being the winner?

yes..apparently mr johnE will then buy your software. However, it appears everyone is getting pissed off. mr predictor for someone suggesting he predict. mr toast for competing alone..me for not getting to see the contest.. and mitsubishi because he will not be able to prove to you guys that volume means nothing. tams is too busy formulating anti gun arguments. mightymouse is trying to figure out my riddle on the puzzle thread..captain bob is becoming more and more convinced that longterm trading is the way to go hence your software is not something relevant for him. DB..well he is up to his nose in that wyckoff sh$t and he just ain't got time for this BS you guys are promoting. too bad because it really is probally good BS. Edited January 14, 2013 by Patuca

[Predictor 11]

Patuca: First, John asked about my software which doesn't provide signals, and in that capacity I'm representing my company. I don't see the value in a trading contest for a program that doesn't offer signals and given that our primary customer is likely going to be a professional and already profitable trader. I also don't like that we have obviously other vendors trying in any way possible to associate themselves with what we're doing because they see the enthusiasm for our product.

 

If you're asking my personal trading/predictions/etc then I don't feel any need to do that. If you were listening, I already stated I had top ranked audited systems. I'm not interested in producing those records at this time, either.

 

My goal in this thread is to create a resource for real traders posting real-time information. So far, I'm the only one who's stepped up to the plate. The goal here is for like minded traders to help each other. Please no more off-topic posts.

[JohnE 10]

Jigsaw, you are posting results to show that you can profitably trade your indicators/software over time. If you can't trade them then how are we supposed to ? The prize you get is that you show people it can be done and that drives more people to buy your product.

 

Lets not get caught up in the words I have chosen. We all know that I want proof that the two of you can trade using the products you want the public to buy.

 

Perhaps this is a better way to phrase it . Are you willing to trade for 3 months and post your results here on the forum in order to demonstrate YOUR ability to trade with your products ?

 

A simple yes or no will do.

 

I'm was hoping one of you will come through and since Predicator can't do it then perhaps you can.

Well, no PM yet but I just noticed the post.

 

So let me get the terms of this competition right...

 

I compete against nobody for 3 months.

 

At the end of 3 months, I publish my earnings on this forum to show that I am a legitimate trader.

 

On the opposing side, the person I am competing against will publish nothing.

 

Are these the terms you are proposing?

 

Is there a prize for being the winner?

Edited January 14, 2013 by JohnE

[DionysusToast 10]

Jigsaw, you are posting results to show that you can profitably trade your indicators/software over time. If you can't trade them then how are we supposed to ? The prize you get is that you show people it can be done and that drives more people to buy your product.

 

Lets not get caught up in the words I have chosen. We all know that I want proof that the two of you can trade using the products you want the public to buy.

 

Perhaps this is a better way to phrase it . Are you willing to trade for 3 months and post your results here on the forum in order to demonstrate YOUR ability to trade with your products ?

 

A simple yes or no will do.

 

I'm was hoping one of you will come through and since Predicator can't do it then perhaps you can.

 

Please be aware that I take this forum thing with a huge grain of salt...

 

Anyway - in interweb parlance you are "calling me out". Fair enough but I do think that you need to sweeten the deal a bit. You know - set some sort of target for me & then if I hit that you buy the products. Put a few grand in escrow and I get that if I succeed (not that we have defined what 'succeed' means at this point). This sounds a lot better than me jumping through hoops each time a random person shouts "jump" on the internet.

 

Seriously though - this is something I thought about after something that happened last month. It was 19th of December and a guy I'd been chatting with on Skype (who has been ripped off on numerous occasions) asked me to record my screen and discuss what I was seeing. I did, made a trade about 20 minutes in, left it recording for another 40 mins and sent it to him later that night. It's on Youtube for anyone interested.

 

Greg is now a happy bunny, he has the validation he wanted before spending time looking at this stuff. He asked for a vid and a few hours later he got it. Anyone else that watches it will say -

 

"you could have made 1 of those every day and just sent the good one"

"looks edited"

"probably SIM" (well - except the depth changes when I place trades).

 

On my side - the recording was fine. My PC crashed 3 times trying to render the video and on the 4th attempt (at 3am) it managed to complete. I then had to upload it and get up at 5:40am to take my son to school - happy days. The PC is in the shop now where an unidentified issue is being repaided by throwing new bits at it. Still - I think I could refine this process to a point where it would be relatively painless.

 

I note that you are interested in the next 3 months trading and not the last 3 months. I presume this is because you want it done in such a way that you can validate it. The only way I know to do that is to call trades in advance or just after entry. Is this correct? I did spend some time on T2W where I posted charts just after entry - with the price markers on the chart and way before I closed out. I then posted the closed charts. It was something that would be tough to fake but it was a lot of work and I stopped after a few months.

 

My thoughts are that a much easier (for me) way to do this is to just turn on Camtasia at the start of the session and switch it off when I am done. I am not sure this will pass muster with those looking for validation - plus it will create some long and incredibly dull videos.

 

So - in all seriousness - what is it exactly that you want to see - just an account statement? Running commentary?

 

Also - what is your measure of success considering it would be a solo mission?

[JohnE 10]

I take challenges to vendors with a grain of salt because they never usually get done. The vendor stalls or comes up with excuses and just prolongs things in order to keep up potential interest in the product in question. They never accept the challenge and things drag on for weeks or even months. Hmm...sure seems like you may be doing this.

 

A simple yes or know couldn't do ? Did we really need the infomercial about December 19th ?

 

Why don't you start a new thread and either post the last 3 months statements or start with the next month and begin there ? Then do that for two more months. I think the readers can judge by the statements what they deem as "profitable" . Don't try to make it more complicated. Either rise up to the challenge or just say "no". Don't try to drag it on. That's an old vendor trick to avoid the challenge. Be better than that!

Please be aware that I take this forum thing with a huge grain of salt...

 

Anyway - in interweb parlance you are "calling me out". Fair enough but I do think that you need to sweeten the deal a bit. You know - set some sort of target for me & then if I hit that you buy the products. Put a few grand in escrow and I get that if I succeed (not that we have defined what 'succeed' means at this point). This sounds a lot better than me jumping through hoops each time a random person shouts "jump" on the internet.

 

Seriously though - this is something I thought about after something that happened last month. It was 19th of December and a guy I'd been chatting with on Skype (who has been ripped off on numerous occasions) asked me to record my screen and discuss what I was seeing. I did, made a trade about 20 minutes in, left it recording for another 40 mins and sent it to him later that night. It's on Youtube for anyone interested.

 

Greg is now a happy bunny, he has the validation he wanted before spending time looking at this stuff. He asked for a vid and a few hours later he got it. Anyone else that watches it will say -

 

"you could have made 1 of those every day and just sent the good one"

"looks edited"

"probably SIM" (well - except the depth changes when I place trades).

 

On my side - the recording was fine. My PC crashed 3 times trying to render the video and on the 4th attempt (at 3am) it managed to complete. I then had to upload it and get up at 5:40am to take my son to school - happy days. The PC is in the shop now where an unidentified issue is being repaided by throwing new bits at it. Still - I think I could refine this process to a point where it would be relatively painless.

 

I note that you are interested in the next 3 months trading and not the last 3 months. I presume this is because you want it done in such a way that you can validate it. The only way I know to do that is to call trades in advance or just after entry. Is this correct? I did spend some time on T2W where I posted charts just after entry - with the price markers on the chart and way before I closed out. I then posted the closed charts. It was something that would be tough to fake but it was a lot of work and I stopped after a few months.

 

My thoughts are that a much easier (for me) way to do this is to just turn on Camtasia at the start of the session and switch it off when I am done. I am not sure this will pass muster with those looking for validation - plus it will create some long and incredibly dull videos.

 

So - in all seriousness - what is it exactly that you want to see - just an account statement? Running commentary?

 

Also - what is your measure of success considering it would be a solo mission?

Edited January 17, 2013 by JohnE

[DionysusToast 10]

John

 

I understand your position but your simple 'yes or no' is not so simple because the next guy wants something different.

 

In my opinion, everyone has a different idea of what constitutes validation of trading ability.

 

All I am doing here is trying to get to the point where something reasonable is agreed upon. You jump on that and call it avoidance. Such is the internet - no matter what you do, someone jumps on you for doing it.

 

I have been logging trades as they were taken on T2W. It's all out there. I presume though that this isn't good enough because you'd have to go back over the post times/trade times to validate it. Someone who was willing to do that would have the validation they need. It stopped as it was a massive pain in the a$$ to do it in a timely manner. Specifically, it was the uploading of images to an image host was cumbersome, especially when doing it in the first few minutes of a trade.

 

Account statements - the amount of money people earn, I think most people play that close to their chests for the same reason. The amount of points you earn - that's fine - but actually releasing publicly the amount of dollars you earn just because some random guy on teh interweb who won't buy your products anyway thinks you are a fake? I don't see it.

 

How much do you earn by the way?

 

Cheers

 

DT

[JohnE 10]

Here we go with the stalling tactics. Just because you show us trading statements it doesn't mean we know how much you earn. We won't be able to see how much you make selling software will we ? So we have no way of knowing what you earn.

 

We are only concerned with your trades for 3 months. A critical sign of a vendor who is avoiding the issues is one that tries to turn the questions/request back on the poster. I'm not going to let you make this about me.

 

I think the internet has the answer from you and it's a "no". You can't meet the challenge and prove that you are profitable with your software for three months. You are doing exactly what I thought you would do as mentioned in my last post.

 

Please only respond when you are ready to post some statements otherwise I am wasting my time with you. You can design software, I'm sure you can figure out a way to post something meaningful from your statements if you had them to show.

 

John

 

 

Account statements - the amount of money people earn, I think most people play that close to their chests for the same reason. The amount of points you earn - that's fine - but actually releasing publicly the amount of dollars you earn just because some random guy on teh interweb who won't buy your products anyway thinks you are a fake? I don't see it.

 

How much do you earn by the way?

 

Cheers

 

DT

Edited January 18, 2013 by JohnE

[DionysusToast 10]

Here we go with the stalling tactics. Just because you show us trading statements it doesn't mean we know how much you earn. We won't be able to see how much you make selling software will we ? So we have no way of knowing what you earn.

 

We are only concerned with your trades for 3 months. A critical sign of a vendor who is avoiding the issues is one that tries to turn the questions/request back on the poster. I'm not going to let you make this about me.

 

I think the internet has the answer from you and it's a "no". You can't meet the challenge and prove that you are profitable with your software for three months. You are doing exactly what I thought you would do as mentioned in my last post.

 

If you want you can use white out and block out the dollar amounts from your statements so we can only see the "points you earn". What is the difference ? Your yanking my chain !

 

Please only respond when you are ready to post some statements otherwise we are wasting our time with you.

 

I see - so now you are telling me when I can/can't post? You sound like my old math teacher.

 

The internet never ceases to amaze me.

 

I can meet the challenge - I just wont dance to your tune, John.

 

You have your opinions of what is valid and what isn't. This is fine. On the other hand, you have to understand that my comfort zone may be different. I may for instance be sitting in a developing country and not want to publicise the fact that I earn 100 times the average wage. My tax situation might be somewhat 'complicated'.

 

Have you been to T2W to see what was posted there in terms of entry times, number of contracts etc? Is this sufficient for you? How about the video I posted - the one you called an infomercial, did you bother to watch it? Would this be sufficient? Are you perhaps not bothered to look at these things because it's your way or the highway?

 

I say let's get some more opinions. Yours has been stated loud & clear, with the exception of what it is you expect to see on this statement which proves I am a 'legit' trader.

 

In good faith though - could you post a scan of last months salary slip to show your own opennes to revealing your earnings.

[JohnE 10]

You already know what will be good for me. Lets stop trying to redirect this. Acting dense is no excuse for poor follow-through. You have no need to ask me any questions. It's obvious what you are trying to do and what you are unable to do - which is give me 3 months of statements.

 

You gave me my answer and I thank you. You can get mad at the internet all you want but I think your true answers lie within yourself.

 

Accept who you are and move on or work on changing to be better. If you can meet the challenge than just do it and stop all your talking . Make me out to be the fool and prove me wrong.There's no need for any more rhetoric between us.

 

I see - so now you are telling me when I can/can't post? You sound like my old math teacher.

 

The internet never ceases to amaze me.

 

I can meet the challenge - I just wont dance to your tune, John.

 

You have your opinions of what is valid and what isn't. This is fine. On the other hand, you have to understand that my comfort zone may be different. I may for instance be sitting in a developing country and not want to publicise the fact that I earn 100 times the average wage. My tax situation might be somewhat 'complicated'.

 

Have you been to T2W to see what was posted there in terms of entry times, number of contracts etc? Is this sufficient for you? How about the video I posted - the one you called an infomercial, did you bother to watch it? Would this be sufficient? Are you perhaps not bothered to look at these things because it's your way or the highway?

 

I say let's get some more opinions. Yours has been stated loud & clear, with the exception of what it is you expect to see on this statement which proves I am a 'legit' trader.

 

In good faith though - could you post a scan of last months salary slip to show your own opennes to revealing your earnings.

[Patuca 13]

um...i think johnnnye got pissed and left the forum in a huff:confused:

[Patuca 13]

Have you been to T2W to see what was posted there in terms of entry times, number of contracts etc? Is this sufficient for you? How about the video I posted - the one you called an infomercial, did you bother to watch it? Would this be sufficient?

triple no. you think johnnye would actually do those things?

 

Are you perhaps not bothered to look at these things because it's your way or the highway?

that is about the way he feels

 

I say let's get some more opinions. Yours has been stated loud & clear, with the exception of what it is you expect to see on this statement which proves I am a 'legit' trader.

 

In good faith though - could you post a scan of last months salary slip to show your own opennes to revealing your earnings.

yea do it johnnye..sounds reasonable to me...show him you ain't a chickensh$t

[Patuca 13]

Anyway - in interweb parlance you are "calling me out". Fair enough but I do think that you need to sweeten the deal a bit. You know - set some sort of target for me & then if I hit that you buy the products. Put a few grand in escrow and I get that if I succeed (not that we have defined what 'succeed' means at this point).

oh sh$t you pistol whipped his $ss this time. ain't no way johnnye is gonna do that...he only makes challenges..never enters them...this "calling out" reminds me of a western..."high noon"

[JohnE 10]

one can only assume that the vendors who visit this forum and promote orderflow cannot trade. Nobody stepped up to the plate. How sad and predictable.

[Tams 20]

one can only assume that the vendors who visit this forum and promote orderflow cannot trade. Nobody stepped up to the plate. How sad and predictable.

 

certain vendor cannot even interpret the information he garnered from his own software,

let alone using it to trade, and to trade profitably.

Reading his posts is like reading an astrologist's predictions; full of non-committal double talks.

 

Forget about a 3 months challenge, if he can post a one week record, I would say he is on the good side. But I doubt that would happen. Not from my read of his thread, there is no way in hell he can make money with his kind of wishy-washy analysis. He is more a shoot from the hip discretionary trader than an analytical trader. He might have a software, but most of his chain-of-thought do not utilize those information. If he could see the order flow as he claimed, he wouldn't be as scared most of the time, and he wouldn't be as non-committal when an opportunity presents itself.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Tams

[Patuca 13]

Dang tams why do you and johnnye run all the vendors off? Hey i got an idea. You and johnnye trade for 2 months on a sim posting all trades using your very own personalized trading strategies and lets see who wins? Then predictor and mr burn't toast can both buy your programs aka as strategies ..tactics...whatever... and then the internet people who congregate here may well flood your boxes with orders...It will be kinda of like walking the talk....instead of talking the walk...plus you and mr johnnye would be setting the prima donna example for all future vendors. Db has already refused such challenges. Windbag why? Comes on and blab and blab..yada..yada and then disappears. Mighty mouse is perfecting his golf clubs to become the best defensive weapon he can with good conscious own and operate.

[JohnE 10]

the vendors won't post proof no matter what we do. If they could then they would as it would bring in more customers to them. There is no incentive for us regular people to post statements as we have nothing to gain. It doesn't bring us additional cash and our egos are not that fragile as we need to prove anything to you.

 

 

But lets do this- - You go deposit 50 k in a bank account and jump through all the hoops to set things up with a lawyer and I'll deposit 50 k too. Then I'll provide 3 years of my most current statements and once he /she makes all the contacts to verify my positive statements then I get to keep your money. That would be worth it to me. If my statements suck then you get the 50 K. Sounds fair.

 

Let me know when you have that done - go Walk the Walk Mr. Big Talk and contact me via Private message with the contact information.

 

Now lets not get off topic anymore from here. I'm not planning to respond to anyone who wants to muddle this up some more and try to divert the attention from the vendors.

 

I'll let you know when Patcuca comes through but I don't need more of you vendors jumping on the bandwagon to try and protect each other.

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

Now lets not get off topic anymore from here. I'm not planning to respond to anyone who wants to muddle this up some more and try to divert the attention from the vendors.

 

Hi JohnE,

 

Nice idea, but I think that you need to invite more vendors. Here is a list:

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/general-discussion/10860-tl-vendor-list.html

 

Why not send each of them a PM and ask them to take up the challenge?

 

BlueHorseshoe

[DbPhoenix 42]

Db has already refused such challenges. Windbag why? Comes on and blab and blab..yada..yada and then disappears.

 

What challenges? We post our trades in advance. AFAIK, no one else does, or has, except for Thalestrader, which may explain why his thread was and is so popular.

 

As to whether or not JohnE, or you, trades, or can, who cares? He has nothing to sell, and neither do you, AFAIK. Now that we have "Ignore This Thread", I couldn't care less who goes on about what great traders they are because without some explanation of what they do and why they do it and when they do it and how they manage it, it's all pure fiction. And, no, one can't post real-time trades on a message board. I've been online for 15 years, and I know all about how "real-time" trades are faked, even in a "trading" room.

 

There are only two or three people here that I am persuaded actually trade. The rest talk the talk, frequently and at length, but they provide zero evidence that they trade. Or can. More often they end up asking some question that anyone who had traded for more than a few weeks would know. Or making some remark that betrays their ignorance of how it all works.

[DbPhoenix 42]

Hi JohnE,

 

Nice idea, but I think that you need to invite more vendors. Here is a list:

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/general-discussion/10860-tl-vendor-list.html

 

Why not send each of them a PM and ask them to take up the challenge?

 

BlueHorseshoe

 

Good luck with that.