How Much Profit Does the Average Successful Trader Make?

[Roger Felton 10]

Broke and dead in a flophouse? maybe not. Miserable? I suspect he is miserable. No one matter-of-factly becomes one of the wealthiest men in the world. There is certainly a competitive and ruthless side to him that we don't see

 

If you ask me, broke and dead in a flophouse sounds like perfect timing.

.

 

Competitive? Almost certainly. Ruthless? Probably more a stereotypical cliche than an accurate assessment. If you look up "Rich", "Wealthy", "Investor" or "Successful", I don't think the word "ruthless" appears anywhere except in perhaps jealous minds.

 

MM, you are a trader and, from what I understand a good one. As you once told me, you have a trading system that almost never loses and I think that's terrific. Some day, if you haven't already, you might turn that sucker lose and haul in tremendous profit daily...and I'll be cheering you on. If not already, you may become one of the richest most successful traders to ever gaze upon a chart. Do I then assume you are automatically ruthless for no other reason than how successful you were?

 

With every trade you or anyone else takes, you can choose to want to win or to want to lose. We all make that difficult choice all the time. When we choose to win, and manage to do so, we're astute competent professional traders. When Warren Buffet does it, he's ruthless? Perhaps he is but beng an exceptional investor isn't a synonym.

 

Ruthlessness can and does exist in the world. The biggest infestation is in Washington DC. Congress has (until recently) enjoyed the benefits of insider trading forever. With vast wealth usually comes power and there lies the rub.

 

Ruthlesness comes from the power of having wealth, not the necessarily the money itself. Take George Soros...a filthy rich power mad prick that decimates entire countries by destroying their currency just to make a buck. That's ruthless. Buffet is no Soros from what I can tell. But then, I could be wrong.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Roger Felton

[Roger Felton 10]

Well,i never got into trading with the idea that it would make me fabulously wealthy....and so far,that is working out beautifully

 

But then success to me is doing what i want,when i want.how i want,regardless of whether other people like it or not.Regardless whether other people approve of it or not,or with best intentions,advise me not to do it,or tell me i'm doing it wrong,or telling me how they do it,or how they would do it,even if they knew what the hell they were talking about,which invariably they don't.

If that is success then i pretty much been getting away with it most of my life.So,no complaints,we're not exactly starving here,i just wont be buying an island anytime soon.

Still,you'll have to ask Richard Branson if knowing you own an island is more enjoyable than actually visiting it.

In return for being selfish and obstinate about how i run my own life i'll put up with the glazed over eyes and fingers crossed that i'll just say "fine" whenever i'm asked by my family how things are going.(and by family i don't mean the ones i live with,i mean the ones i'm glad i don't live with )

We all learned many years ago that if i don't turn up on the doorstep broke,needing food and shelter,then not understanding the things i do and why i do them doesn't really matter.

 

And on the day Chris Huhne settles down to spend his first night in a cell,having torn his family apart,wrecked his career and given a 6 figure sum to a bunch of leeching lawers i'll almost certainly be doing what i want,when i want,how i want...and it will be all the sweeter knowing he's in hell where he belongs.

 

Now there's proof positive that you can be "crusty" without being ornery. You go girl....LOL

 

Do ya think Chris Huhne should burn in Hades for going 69 in a 50 or for facial texture resembling an IHOP waffle? Just thinkin out loud....

[MightyMouse 12]

.

... Some day, if you haven't already, you might turn that sucker lose and haul in tremendous profit daily...and I'll be cheering you on. If not already, you may become one of the richest most successful traders to ever gaze upon a chart. Do I then assume you are automatically ruthless for no other reason than how successful you were?

 

I think you are describing luck. Someone can certainly get lucky and make a lot of money and then people can mistakenly confuse his luck with success because, when measured in dollars, it makes no difference how you end up with it. A billion in my pocket and a billion in your pocket makes us both billionaires no matter how we got it.

 

If we did this for 40 years, that is a whole different story. It begins to necessitate, other personality traits. Ruthless may be too strong a word to use in the 21st century. But, manipulative comes to mind. The last thing that comes to mind is benevolence.

There was nothing benevolent about the way he gave GS 5 billion after they became a bank holding company, and, therefore, backed by the US Govt and received 10% on preferred stock convertible into common. Something like that. This was not a deal that you or I could take part in.

[Roger Felton 10]

I think you are describing luck. Someone can certainly get lucky and make a lot of money and then people can mistakenly confuse his luck with success because, when measured in dollars, it makes no difference how you end up with it. A billion in my pocket and a billion in your pocket makes us both billionaires no matter how we got it.

 

If we did this for 40 years, that is a whole different story. It begins to necessitate, other personality traits. Ruthless may be too strong a word to use in the 21st century. But, manipulative comes to mind. The last thing that comes to mind is benevolence.

There was nothing benevolent about the way he gave GS 5 billion after they became a bank holding company, and, therefore, backed by the US Govt and received 10% on preferred stock convertible into common. Something like that. This was not a deal that you or I could take part in.

 

Good points to ponder, for sure...

[Roger Felton 10]

He's not facing jail for speeding or for facial hair,he's facing jail for perverting the course of justice.

In an ideal world we should be able to expect higher standards of behaviour from the people in privileged positions.But,as we all know,the opposite is too often true.

If i'm honest i'd say the only people that should go to jail are those that are a genuine danger to the rest of us.He will do a few weeks in an open prison.The huge cost financially and personally is the real punishment which he'll have plenty of time to reflect on.

 

No truer words ever spoken. I've never seen any time in my life where priviledged positions were so universally abused, corrupt and the effects so devastating to others. Nor have I ever seen a time when so many people made aware actually didn't give a damn. But if Kim K. wears the wrong shoes with the wrong dress, all hell breaks loose. Go figure.

[MightyMouse 12]

... I've never seen any time in my life where priviledged positions were so universally abused, corrupt and the effects so devastating to others...

 

I think it becomes more evident as we age, the process of which, has gotten us to this point in time. I would guess that it was actually easier to abuse a privileged position in the past, leading an abuser to think " you can't get away with the things we used to be able to get away with". There is, of course, the occasional outlier.

[Roger Felton 10]

I think it becomes more evident as we age, the process of which, has gotten us to this point in time. I would guess that it was actually easier to abuse a privileged position in the past, leading an abuser to think " you can't get away with the things we used to be able to get away with". There is, of course, the occasional outlier.

 

Yes, but in the past, we had real journalists in the major media who weren't accomplices to the abusers. Today, there are no more watchdogs so the crooks can and do pretty much whatever they want.

[lastninja2 10]

Seems this thread has gone off course but if anyone interested still, I will try to offer a pretty straight answer, based partly on solid data.

 

My assumptions:

* Trading major CME/Eurex Futures

* "Normal" market conditions

 

For every 1 x contract you trade, you should be pleased with yourself if you can average +$250/month, before broker fees.

Those transaction costs are going to make this twice as hard, if you are paying retail rates, but that's the way it is.

 

"You said $250/month. Surely you mean per day... per week?" -No, I mean per month. Remember, I'm talking in terms of averages. You may have a few trades that make 25 ticks in one go. You might have a great day when China cuts rates unexpectedly, and finish up 100 ticks! But there will be losing trades, too, and probably plenty of them.

 

Realistically to make a living off trading, in my opinion, you need to be clipping between 10 and 20 contracts. This keeps a roof over your head + yields some additional $$$ to build up your trading size over time.

 

I bet some of you were hoping you could make a good living off 2 contracts. Do you think the guys trading with 20 contracts per click are making enough money to support the lives TEN people? hehe!

 

Now, in all markets, the game starts to change when you trade in greater size.

Ending the day +$300 after 30 round turns is good, but from the data I have seen of various traders' P/L, as a general rule your $ return on each round turn is going to decline. The game becomes more difficult because deploying 5 contracts should be more straightforward than deploying 500.

Do 5000 round turns in a day and you might be pleased with +$30,000 that session.

 

This helps to explain why fund managers are unable to match short-term traders in % returns (in theory). They are deploying millions/billions of dollars. You are deploying a few thousand.

 

To re-examine some of those figures, then:

 

Hypothetical Average Successful Trader A:

Account Size: $10,000

Clips 4 on ES

Finishes the month +25 ticks, net. (+$1250)

+$312.50 / contract... a good month hey!

Broker takes $200 (argh!!!)

 

After about a year of this you've hopefully doubled the $10,000. And maybe added a couple of contracts along the way?

 

So after 10 grueling years, grinding away for 12 hours a day, you have finally built up the account from $10,000 to $5,000,000.

Hehe that's a nice story - and from a mathematical POV, perhaps within the realms of possibility.

But will you now proceed to take over the world, doubling your account every year until it runs to the trillions? I don't expect so.

With such a large account size you might now be buying and selling literally thousands of ES contracts at a time - and the daily return, the daily bang for your buck, I think is going to severely dwindle. Probably long before now.

 

It's a tough realisation for aspiring traders just how many contracts you need to be trading with, in order to make half-way-decent money.

 

Average Succesful Trader B:

Account size: $50,000

Clip size: 20 lots

Average month: +$5,000 (not a bad performance)

Broker takes: $500

(?) G'vnt takes: $1250

 

[Roger Felton 10]

Seems this thread has gone off course but if anyone interested still, I will try to offer a pretty straight answer, based partly on solid data.

 

My assumptions:

* Trading major CME/Eurex Futures

* "Normal" market conditions

 

For every 1 x contract you trade, you should be pleased with yourself if you can average +$250/month, before broker fees.

Those transaction costs are going to make this twice as hard, if you are paying retail rates, but that's the way it is.

 

"You said $250/month. Surely you mean per day... per week?" -No, I mean per month. Remember, I'm talking in terms of averages. You may have a few trades that make 25 ticks in one go. You might have a great day when China cuts rates unexpectedly, and finish up 100 ticks! But there will be losing trades, too, and probably plenty of them.

 

Realistically to make a living off trading, in my opinion, you need to be clipping between 10 and 20 contracts. This keeps a roof over your head + yields some additional $$$ to build up your trading size over time......

 

......It's a tough realisation for aspiring traders just how many contracts you need to be trading with, in order to make half-way-decent money.

 

Average Succesful Trader B:

Account size: $50,000

Clip size: 20 lots

Average month: +$5,000 (not a bad performance)

Broker takes: $500

(?) G'vnt takes: $1250

 

 

I know you are citing hypothetical examples here based on your experience, knowledge and the way you trade but, to most traders, it's weak advice. Your example uses 20 contracts in the ES. Why, with all the other futures markets offering tremendous trading advantages, do you choose to trade one that is one of the worst choices any trader can make? The relative slow, low range and the quarter point tick increments really stack the cards against the small trader. Liquidity is it's only advantage and that only helps the high rollers and big institutions.

 

Who here could comfortably lose $2500 on a single 20 contract ES trade with an average 10 tick stop? Most traders would have to trade wearing Depends. I prove almost every day that practically any trader can make $1000+ per day trading just 2 contracts per trade on a dozen trades or less. A trade's success happens between the ears long before it happens on a computer screen.

 

The trouble is, nobody wants to take the time and effort to learn anything. If the system alone can't do it, then they'll find one that does. They never do. Then they whine and moan about how no system works and they walk away from trading feeling bitter.

 

Funny, I know of some mediocre golfers who spent tens of thousands of dollars on the finest golf clubs money can buy, then felt scammed when they couldn't take their 120 avg. down to the 60's. When will they ever learn that the clubs don't make the pro, nor the bowling ball, not the hockey stick or the soccer ball?

 

Perhaps, if traders just keep plugging away the clouds will part and a booming voice will come down and a magic transformation will occur. Or, if they just read enough blogs, somebody will part with the real Holy Grail. Maybe some vender whose been scamming traders for years will have a change of heart and share his secret "good stuff" for free. Or there's always the chance some guy on the street will make ya a deal on some actual Pixie Dust that allows you to win at will. And then there's always the possibility that your broker will let you take a few Mulligans.

 

Somewhere out in TraderLand there's a head bobbing up and down in agreement that all those possibilities are actually probabilities. Just don't mention study, effort, learning or practice and you've got their attention.

[lastninja2 10]

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[Roger Felton 10]

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Try the YM or TF if the minis are your thing...

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

 

It's a tough realisation for aspiring traders just how many contracts you need to be trading with, in order to make half-way-decent money.

 

You're wasting your breath!

 

Instead of making broadly realistic and credible claims and selling what is probably a pretty good educational service, Roger persists in trying to convince his prospects that they can consistently do $1k per day with just a few contracts. Might as well just leave him to it . . .

 

BlueHorseshoe

[Roger Felton 10]

You're wasting your breath!

 

Instead of making broadly realistic and credible claims and selling what is probably a pretty good educational service, Roger persists in trying to convince his prospects that they can consistently do $1k per day with just a few contracts. Might as well just leave him to it . . .

 

BlueHorseshoe

 

Prospects? What prospects? If I ever took one dime from anybody in this forum I'd be run out of the country on a rail.

 

Ya know, I gotta chuckle. A guy like Ingot comes out with the hands down absolute "Holy Grail" trading system with no proof whatsoever and nobody says a word...except maybe "wow". I come here and say that 1K a day is doable with 2 contracts and can easily prove it and nobody even bothers to take a look. If they liked what they saw, I'd teach them how to do it for free. But nobody takes a look. Then they sit back and wallow in the misery of failure and wonder "why me Lord?"...and never take a friggin' look.

 

Yes, 1K (on average) per day is doable if someone has the willingness to spend some time learning how. Emotions and Trade Management are the biggest learning hurdles. I've been trading 8 to 10 hours a day for 17 years so, yes, I've gotten pretty good at it. But, initially, most traders are happy to just make $200/day or so which doesn't require as much work.

 

I teach how it's done and I do it for free for most of the traders who spend time with me. For a couple dozen who want extensive personal mentorship for the rest of their life, yeah, I charge a little. That makes me a "vendor" and, yet, for that level of committment everyone in this forum would do the same...or they'd just simply refuse to do it.

 

One by one many of you will run out of willpower or run out of money and go away. In many cases it could have been preventable and wouldn't have cost anything but time. But, one can't give what nobody wants and I get that. You guys take care.

 

Best wishes!

[lastninja2 10]

"most traders are happy to just make $200/day or so which doesn't require as much work."

 

[Tams 20]

if you can make money with ONE contract,

you can make money. Lotsa mooney.

 

if a teacher brags to you with $$$$ profits from multiple contracts,

I would stay away from him immediately.

drop him like a hot potato

because he has a bigger ego than brain.

what easy money the market gives, the market will take back

his interest is not in teaching you how to trade properly,

but to entice you with quick profits. noobs love quick profits.

his interest is in your tuition fees.

he didn't tell you, he will make more money from teaching than from trading.

[optiontimer 10]

Ya know, I gotta chuckle. A guy like Ingot comes out with the hands down absolute "Holy Grail" trading system with no proof whatsoever and nobody says a word...except maybe "wow".

 

Ingot has the Holy Grail!?

 

And he's holding out on us!?

 

I guess he's waiting to get his paypal payments set up ...

[SIUYA 11]

Roger - FWIW - I thought you did charge for people to sit in your room and watch, as a one or two week free trial may not be enough to learn much especially when using your proprietary indicator/price patterns.....I may be wrong here - and am not talking about being able to ask questions, or get one on one time with you - a different thing. My assessment was always that it might not be great value to pay for this for many new traders, and there were are few other concerns.

Otherwise I do think you most likely have things to teach, and if people dont take the opportunity to sit and watch and listen when its free well than that may be their loss. (are you sure you are not just trying to get them in the store to upsell them ? ) As a vendor Roger you will always take some extra flak.....

 

As an aside when you say "1K a day is doable with 2 contracts" from what I saw it might be better to add "1K a day is doable with 2 contracts using multiple instruments at the same time"

 

Lastninja has a good point - if you have something that makes $200 a day reliably, then simply increase the volume button - this might all fall apart for some strategies or traders, OR it might run into risk of ruin issues if the capital is not sufficient for a string of losses. Otherwise its the simplest easiest solution there is - once you are consistently profitable.

 

As for Ingot - well - i am sure once he sets his pay pal up he would get the same flak as any vendor

[Roger Felton 10]

Roger - FWIW - I thought you did charge for people to sit in your room and watch, as a one or two week free trial may not be enough to learn much especially when using your proprietary indicator/price patterns.....I may be wrong here - and am not talking about being able to ask questions, or get one on one time with you - a different thing. My assessment was always that it might not be great value to pay for this for many new traders, and there were are few other concerns.

Otherwise I do think you most likely have things to teach, and if people dont take the opportunity to sit and watch and listen when its free well than that may be their loss. (are you sure you are not just trying to get them in the store to upsell them ? ) As a vendor Roger you will always take some extra flak.....

 

As an aside when you say "1K a day is doable with 2 contracts" from what I saw it might be better to add "1K a day is doable with 2 contracts using multiple instruments at the same time"

 

Lastninja has a good point - if you have something that makes $200 a day reliably, then simply increase the volume button - this might all fall apart for some strategies or traders, OR it might run into risk of ruin issues if the capital is not sufficient for a string of losses. Otherwise its the simplest easiest solution there is - once you are consistently profitable.

 

As for Ingot - well - i am sure once he sets his pay pal up he would get the same flak as any vendor

 

Anyone coming into the room who needs more evaluation time only needs to request it. Some have done this for a month or two. At some point, we do let them know that a charge will be necessary because we have to pay the service (such as HotComm, Omnovia, WebEx, etc.) but we try to be as generous as we can.

 

I can repeat this a thousand times and some still won't get it. I WILL NOT ACCEPT ANY PAYMENT IN ANY FORM FROM ANY TL FORUM SUBSCRIBER. Period. This means when we cannot continue paying their way, we simply must close them out and hope they enjoyed and benefited from the time they spent.

 

If I accepted any TL trader as a room subscriber, software purchaser, or student member, I would be violating a promise I made some time ago in the hopes of convincing the many "vendor haters" in this group that I was not fishing for prospects here. I've been tested a few times so some know I'm serious.

 

I don't need to go look for new clients. I get plenty from student referrals and word of mouth. If I accepted any money from anyone here, I would lose all credibility and I be slammed all over the Internet for dishonesty. I'm just not going to do that to get clients I don't need.

 

My offer to TL members is to help them in whatever area of difficulty they are experiencing. I've seen it all many hundreds of times. Same issues, different faces. Traders are not going to suddenly start winning just by watching me trade in the room. Getting a trader to achieve their real potential takes a lot of effort on my part so the time I can spend with a TL member is limited, but still effective. It's friend helping friend but it just can't be an intensive lifetime committment as it is with my students.

 

Ok, enough on that. The suggestion that, if one can make $200 with 2 contracts, they can make boatloads by adding more contracts doesn't work for many traders in the real world. When they trade 2, they don't fear the loss if it fails (or shouldn't). If they then trade 20, 50 or 100 contracts on the next trade, they are almost guaranteed to fail because of the level of fear that would generate for most traders. Fear = Stress = Mistakes. Trading big lots is something traders have to build up to slowly over time as thir account and confidence increases sufficiently.

 

Your misunderstanding of how 1K is made with 2 contracts is due to your not asking any questions when you visited us. It can be done in one single market but would just take longer. The Trading Room is only open for 4 hours a day so 2 or 3 instruments are watched to get more trades in a much shorter period of time. It also keeps the action going so the room stays interesting. A good instrument such as GC or CL will produce 15to 20 reasonably good trades in an 8 hour day but taking every trade is highly discouraged. Much fewer are necessary if the trader has mastered their system, proper trade management, and themselves.

 

As for Ingot - well - i am sure once he sets his pay pal up he would get the same flak as any vendor

 

To me, that makes no logical sense whatsoever. Even the most boneheaded trader knows that the most expensive trading systems they will ever use are the ones that are free.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Roger Felton

[SIUYA 11]

Ok, enough on that. The suggestion that, if one can make $200 with 2 contracts, they can make boatloads by adding more contracts doesn't work for many traders in the real world. When they trade 2, they don't fear the loss if it fails (or shouldn't). If they then trade 20, 50 or 100 contracts on the next trade, they are almost guaranteed to fail because of the level of fear that would generate for most traders. Fear = Stress = Mistakes. Trading big lots is something traders have to build up to slowly over time as thir account and confidence increases sufficiently.

 

Roger - no one suggests you go from 2 to 20. You go from 2-3-4-5-6, so long as you have consistent profitability. Some traders never want to step up extra size, or are simply incapable.....but surely you agree that if you are successfully profitable with 2 contracts then trading an extra contract is the easiest (or an easy) way to increase profitability?

 

Your misunderstanding of how 1K is made with 2 contracts is due to your not asking any questions when you visited us. It can be done in one single market but would just take longer. The Trading Room is only open for 4 hours a day so 2 or 3 instruments are watched to get more trades in a much shorter period of time. It also keeps the action going so the room stays interesting. A good instrument such as GC or CL will produce 15to 20 reasonably good trades in an 8 hour day but taking every trade is highly discouraged. Much fewer are necessary if the trader has mastered their system, proper trade management, and themselves.

 

 

Roger - i wanted to assess your trading room, and without going into the whole thing again. I did ask questions and I have been around long enough to understand a few things without in depth information for what i needed....etc; etc; etc;....I was assessing for what was a short period of time as to its value.......we dont need to repeat or this here....unless you want to.

 

In keeping on topic.....

 

So you are saying that you do make on average $1000 per instrument per day using 2 contracts.

I am not saying it cant be done, but trying to clarify for the thread question, what is claimed can be done.

 

As for Ingot - well - i am sure once he sets his pay pal up he would get the same flak as any vendor

 

To me, that makes no logical sense whatsoever. Even the most boneheaded trader knows that the most expensive trading systems they will ever use are the ones that are free.

 

its called sarcasm and humor Roger and if you could look beyond the vendor flak you might see this.

The most expensive systems are those the trader does not test and prove to themselves that if applied correctly and consistently they work or dont work - free or not.

If you gave me a system and charged me for it - by your implication its a better system than one that is for free - even if they both loose me money.

 

Taking out someones own hard work, sweat, mistakes and experience it could be seen that the best systems are actually free.

[MightyMouse 12]

 

Ok, enough on that. The suggestion that, if one can make $200 with 2 contracts, they can make boatloads by adding more contracts doesn't work for many traders in the real world. When they trade 2, they don't fear the loss if it fails (or shouldn't). If they then trade 20, 50 or 100 contracts on the next trade, they are almost guaranteed to fail because of the level of fear that would generate for most traders. Fear = Stress = Mistakes. Trading big lots is something traders have to build up to slowly over time as thir account and confidence increases sufficiently.

 

 

Other than the potential psychological difficulties that may occur when adding size on the next trade, the market does not react the same toward your entry when you enter with 10, 100 or 2.

 

As an example, I have entered with a market order with one contract and get a reasonable amount of slippage; typically, the order price or 1 tick maybe. But, with 10 contracts, in this particular market, I received a range of as much as 8 ticks at times. Even though 10 contracts doesn't sound or seem like much, it is enough to tremendously change the expected outcome. Of course, there will be variances based on liquidity. The point is that adding size to make more money isn't as easy as just being able to handle it psychologically.

[Roger Felton 10]

Roger - no one suggests you go from 2 to 20. You go from 2-3-4-5-6, so long as you have consistent profitability. Some traders never want to step up extra size, or are simply incapable.....but surely you agree that if you are successfully profitable with 2 contracts then trading an extra contract is the easiest (or an easy) way to increase profitability?

 

Of course, but nothing was said about inching along. The discussion was to go right from 2 contracts to making $1K in a couple of ticks. That gets traders out of their comfort zone (and into bad Risk Management) in a hurry.

 

Roger - i wanted to assess your trading room, and without going into the whole thing again. I did ask questions and I have been around long enough to understand a few things without in depth information for what i needed....etc; etc; etc;....I was assessing for what was a short period of time as to its value.......we dont need to repeat or this here....unless you want to.

 

I understand but that's like trying to assess a potential wife after knowing her for a week. There's a lot more to learn. By not spending actual learning time with me, SIUYA, you don't know what an SA signal is, an SM or a BR. You don't know what a Supreme Renko looks like or how it functions totally unique to all others. You don't know what the PowerSlope is or what it does and you're probably clueless as to what a Directional Strength Index is or what it does. Had you simply requested a personal chat with me, I would have gladly shown and explained them to you. You spent a few days in the public trading room and, from that, thought you knew enough to make a meaningful evaluation. In reality, you knew very little. The Trading Room isn't where we divulge everything to the world. That's for trading, not teaching. The learning is done in private one-on-one's.

 

 

In keeping on topic.....

 

So you are saying that you do make on average $1000 per instrument per day using 2 contracts.

I am not saying it cant be done, but trying to clarify for the thread question, what is claimed can be done.

 

What I claim can be done is exactly what I and my students are doing. Nothing more or less. I don't make 1K every day and don't claim to. Today was just 500...but yesterday was over 2000 so I'll make my average again this week. But what needs to be understood is what I do is not that important if followers can't make their goals. That, I think, is what makes the big difference among educators.

 

its called sarcasm and humor Roger and if you could look beyond the vendor flak you might see this.

 

Sarcasm? No, SIUYA, it's rude, vicious bullying by a bunch of nameless, faceless cowards. I put my name out there proudly while they hide in the weeds They know who they are. Just because they took someone else's course or system and failed is no excuse for taking their frustrations out on me or anyone else. I realize these people are unteachable failures as traders. It's why they are such bitter angry miserable people. They act like children in middle school. I can tolerate them as well as the next guy but after a while it starts to get really old.

 

The most expensive systems are those the trader does not test and prove to themselves that if applied correctly and consistently they work or dont work - free or not.

If you gave me a system and charged me for it - by your implication its a better system than one that is for free - even if they both loose me money.

 

Taking out someones own hard work, sweat, mistakes and experience it could be seen that the best systems are actually free.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. The fact is, ANYONE who offers a system...for fee or free...and doesn't follow up with lots of intensive training is doing more harm than they can imagine. Sure, the system has to be fundamentally sound and it has to fit the trader using it. But there is absolutely no system in the world that anyone can give me or sell that I (or anyone else) can then take and start making money. Not in a week, not in a month, perhaps not even in a year...especially with little or no guidance or training. Anyone acquiring a system, free or otherwise, will almost certainly fail if it doesn't come with knowledge, training and lots of mentorship. That's what you pay for, not the system! And you don't get that with a freebie, ever.

 

I don't know why so many traders are so boneheaded that they are convinced that the "secret" is in the system. Never has been and never will be. Once a trader has lost enough time, tears, sweat, money and hair, they will start to realize that the real secret lies somewhere else. Look in the mirror and have an epiphany. Only then will lasting success be within your grasp.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Roger Felton

[Roger Felton 10]

Other than the potential psychological difficulties that may occur when adding size on the next trade, the market does not react the same toward your entry when you enter with 10, 100 or 2.

 

As an example, I have entered with a market order with one contract and get a reasonable amount of slippage; typically, the order price or 1 tick maybe. But, with 10 contracts, in this particular market, I received a range of as much as 8 ticks at times. Even though 10 contracts doesn't sound or seem like much, it is enough to tremendously change the expected outcome. Of course, there will be variances based on liquidity. The point is that adding size to make more money isn't as easy as just being able to handle it psychologically.

 

Spot on! Try scalping for 10 ticks when half of your contracts are getting filled at the same time you should be getting out of the trade.

[SIUYA 11]

Roger - no one suggests you go from 2 to 20. You go from 2-3-4-5-6, so long as you have consistent profitability. Some traders never want to step up extra size, or are simply incapable.....but surely you agree that if you are successfully profitable with 2 contracts then trading an extra contract is the easiest (or an easy) way to increase profitability?

 

Of course, but nothing was said about inching along. The discussion was to go right from 2 contracts to making $1K in a couple of ticks. That gets traders out of their comfort zone (and into bad Risk Management) in a hurry.

 

I didn't read it that way at all - I understood it and even from Lastnijnjas diagram - from 5 to 6 it was incremental.

 

QUOTE=Roger Felton;173425]

Roger - i wanted to assess your trading room, and without going into the whole thing again. I did ask questions and I have been around long enough to understand a few things without in depth information for what i needed....etc; etc; etc;....I was assessing for what was a short period of time as to its value.......we dont need to repeat or this here....unless you want to.

 

I understand but that's like trying to assess a potential wife after knowing her for a week. There's a lot more to learn. By not spending actual learning time with me, SIUYA, you don't know what an SA signal is, an SM or a BR. You don't know what a Supreme Renko looks like or how it functions totally unique to all others. You don't know what the PowerSlope is or what it does and you're probably clueless as to what a Directional Strength Index is or what it does. Had you simply requested a personal chat with me, I would have gladly shown and explained them to you. You spent a few days in the public trading room and, from that, thought you knew enough to make a meaningful evaluation. In reality, you knew very little. The Trading Room isn't where we divulge everything to the world. That's for trading, not teaching. The learning is done in private one-on-one's.

 

So in other words - when i was evaluating the chat room it was impossible to do so because certain information was not going to be revealed? To do more than that required me to pay money ------ forbidden according to you so WTF?

Look Roger if you wish to get into the whole debate again then fine I will just release ALL the notes - I made. They may not be as flattering as what I said......up to you.

Fancy indicators, names etc are all the same - if you use discretion to buy and sell you are likely to be doing it similarly to anyone else who is successful.....no matter the names or systems you like to call them.

 

My criticism still remains the same regardless of your system - which you did not reveal, or would not as its forbidden...... that is that it is not necessarily of value to everyone and that it is in SIM. I did not need to spend months to come to that conclusion.....if you want to rabbit on about how I did not do enough then whatever.

 

The most expensive systems are those the trader does not test and prove to themselves that if applied correctly and consistently they work or dont work - free or not.

If you gave me a system and charged me for it - by your implication its a better system than one that is for free - even if they both loose me money.

 

Taking out someones own hard work, sweat, mistakes and experience it could be seen that the best systems are actually free.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. The fact is, ANYONE who offers a system...for fee or free...and doesn't follow up with lots of intensive training is doing more harm than they can imagine. Sure, the system has to be fundamentally sound and it has to fit the trader using it. But there is absolutely no system in the world that anyone can give me or sell that I (or anyone else) can then take and start making money. Not in a week, not in a month, perhaps not even in a year...especially with little or no guidance or training. Anyone acquiring a system, free or otherwise, will almost certainly fail if it doesn't come with knowledge, training and lots of mentorship. That's what you pay for, not the system! And you don't get that with a freebie, ever.

 

I don't know why so many traders are so boneheaded that they are convinced that the "secret" is in the system. Never has been and never will be. Once a trader has lost enough time, tears, sweat, money and hair, they will start to realize that the real secret lies somewhere else. Look in the mirror and have an epiphany. Only then will lasting success be within your grasp.

 

Thanks for the clarity on the AVERAGE - thats what this thread is about.

 

Roger for most part I agree with you except.....you offer a system with special coding, and ideas, lots of discretion and fancy names (see above) - this requires special mentoring......This is where what you say comes across/may be interpreted/ may be perceived as BS - this is not, can never be offered to any TL customers......right.

 

Even with this, and a good mentor the trader still has to put the work in, the system still has to be suited to the traders personality - or they will meddle.......

 

This is a quote from my notes - said by one of your students-- "Comment about – complaint that Roger is constantly tweaking and coming up with new things!!!!"

 

now - back to thread......

[Tams 20]

I smell sting LOL

[Roger Felton 10]

So in other words - when i was evaluating the chat room it was impossible to do so because certain information was not going to be revealed? To do more than that required me to pay money ------ forbidden according to you so WTF?

 

Look Roger if you wish to get into the whole debate again then fine I will just release ALL the notes - I made. They may not be as flattering as what I said......up to you.

 

Fancy indicators, names etc are all the same - if you use discretion to buy and sell you are likely to be doing it similarly to anyone else who is successful.....no matter the names or systems you like to call them.

 

Gee whillickers, SIUYA...where in that paragraph does it say anything about paying any money for anything? I said that, in the trading room, we trade...not teach. Anyone wanting to learn what we do, our signals, our indicators, our method need only ask and I will teach them. I don't give away our software but I don't mind explaining what it does.

 

We don't have "fancy" indicators, etc., just ones that do a great job. We believe that winning is easier if a trader uses a system that gives them an edge...something different that won't die because everyone is doing it. It's our opinion which we're entitled to...and certainly not cause for you to become so upset. We don't accept payment from TL members and we like to trade with an edge we're willing to explain for free. For that you want to slander me?

 

You can print whatever notes you care to print, SIUYA. I didn't realize your limited exposure and understanding made for an opinion beyond reproach. I only wanted to point out how limited your research was. I sincerely hope you didn't purposly mislead anyone in your published "report" and I hope that, if you have additional information that you will not withhold it from anyone curious about it.

 

Am I correct in my understanding that you talked to someone who did not want software updates? At FT, our philosophy is to take as much of the measuring, calculating, anticipating, filtering and data crunching and let the computer do it...it's much better equipped. In return, traders need to master skills that humans perform much better than computers ever could.

 

Most users appreciate the updates that continually do a better job with each release while someone evidently wants a static system that never gets any better. No one can please everyone and we're no exception.

 

Your agenda is obvious. So please, SIUYA, with all due respect, go threaten someone else.