How to Choose a Mentor? (I Think)

[wmck6167 10]

1. He (She) had better to be a dead person. Then you won’t have a chance to argue with him and stick on your perception.

 

2.He shall be a person can set up own strategy and persistently earn the profit both. You probably can easily find lots of people can set up a lot of strategy; on the same time, you also probably can easily find lots of people make significant money without own strategy(follow up others). But the ONE with both can probably know your heart and help you to stand up strong. Cheers,

 

Best to you to have a wonderful profitable trades!

[pushpacares007 10]

Following things to be taken care while choosing a mentor..

 

1) Person should have good experience of trading and a success rate of 90% plus.

2) Person should be willing to coach and groom you as a trader

3) Person should be easily approachable

4) Flair for teaching is very important

5) Above all as a mentee you should have high regards and respect for your mentor that's when you would be able to incorporate and accept whatever he is saying.

 

Trading is not only a skill but also an art...Hope this helps.

[wmck6167 10]

 

Trading is not only a skill but also an art...Hope this helps.

 

What a great say about skill but also an art. For me a beginner, the trading is like the Art of War, The Art of Game and Bridge, The heart of Righteousness and The heart of Peace. Best to your trades!

[wsam29 10]

You, as a trader, need to be coach-able.

 

If you're stuck in your ways and beliefs, no mater what a mentor tells you, you will not accept it and you won't change for the better.

 

A mentor should tell you the good and bad about trading, not just all the money one can make from trading.

 

learning what not to do is equally important as what to do, if not more important.

 

i wish I was more open to being coached when I first started trading, being young and ignorant did not help the situation.

[Colonel B 10]

1. He (She) had better to be a dead person. Then you won’t have a chance to argue with him and stick on your perception.

 

2.He shall be a person can set up own strategy and persistently earn the profit both. You probably can easily find lots of people can set up a lot of strategy; on the same time, you also probably can easily find lots of people make significant money without own strategy(follow up others). But the ONE with both can probably know your heart and help you to stand up strong. Cheers,

 

Best to you to have a wonderful profitable trades!

 

????

MENTOR

 

noun

1. a wise and trusted counselor or teacher.

2. an influential senior sponsor or supporter.

 

verb (used without object)

3. to act as a mentor: She spent years mentoring to junior employees.

verb (used with object)

4. to act as a mentor to: The brash young executive did not wish to be mentored by anyone.

 

Its impossible to have a mentor that is dead. A person can not counsel you from the dead. It is also impossible to support from the grave as well. I can post more definitions if you need them. They will all support the fact that no one can counsel from the grave. Unless you are using a Ouija board for your trading.

[zdo 20]

If you really care enough about this subject to dig further, here are some of my posts on this subject... and neighboring and adjacent posts by others in these threads are just as valuable as mine…

… in no particular order…

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/beginners-forum/3335-right-coach-mentor-7.html#post114701

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/beginners-forum/4106-finding-mentor-course-things-look-out-5.html#post42170

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/psychology/11608-taking-blinders-off-trading-mind-19.html#post136737

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/futures-trading-laboratory/3619-how-much-would-you-pay-learn-2.html#post32448

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/beginners-forum/3335-right-coach-mentor.html#post29096

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/futures-trading-laboratory/3619-how-much-would-you-pay-learn-2.html#post32435

hth

[wmck6167 10]

You, as a trader, need to be coach-able.

 

....If you're stuck in your ways and beliefs, no mater what a mentor tells you, you will not accept it and you won't change for the better.

 

The next question is why we stuck in our ways and beliefs without see yourself? Even you know some principles, but still no problem to obey it? It's always a very interesting question to me frankly.

 

B. Graham and P. Fisher taught me a lot of truths in stock market, but honestly I still hard to catch it when I start to do trading at the beginning, until I learned from failures....

 

Good luck!

[addchild 10]

Choose anyone that is better than you, and willing to teach/ help/ guide you for free.

 

Even if they are not profitable, hopefully they can serve as a rung on your ladder.

[SIUYA 11]

Choose anyone that is better than you, and willing to teach/ help/ guide you for free.

 

Even if they are not profitable, hopefully they can serve as a rung on your ladder.

 

Sorry - this would have to classify as bad advice of the worst kind. (uis that a double negative?)

 

Lets say you cant spell, but you get someone who can spell badly, but at least better than you - think of the mistakes you would have to unlearn first before actually being able to learn to spell correctly again.

 

You are far better continuing your search for a good mentor, and work out a lot of stuff yourself at the same time.....and as they say a protege does not get to choose - they are instead chosen.

Anyone who thinks that just anyone with some knowledge can successfully pass on adequate/good/exceptional knowledge that is appropriate to the student may be consigning themselves to the 'sorry but keep trying brigade'

[TheDude 10]

Its a futile task this mentorship stuff.

 

Lets face it, all you need to know is freely available on the internet. OK, theres A LOT of BS out there, but the only thing a mentor will be able to do is cut out the BS and make you focus on whats real.

 

With some effort and thought, most intelligent people will figure out the BS by themselves.

 

What no mentor can ever do though is install the drive to really want to be successful at this - which is what is needed.

 

Think of it like any pro sports where the rewards for success are extremely high. The rules of the game/sport are known by everyone, yet only a few have the dedication and drive to spend every waking hour+ to make it happen. The mentor will never be a shortcut for that. Aint gunna happen in the markets. No shortcuts here, just luck that sometimes appears to fool new traders they have found a shortcut.

[Roger Felton 10]

Choose anyone that is better than you, and willing to teach/ help/ guide you for free.

 

Even if they are not profitable, hopefully they can serve as a rung on your ladder.

 

When you want to learn to swim, hire a swimming instructor and pay him. If you want to learn to fly, hire a pilot instructor...and pay him. If you want to be a pro golfer, hire a really good coach...and pay him.

 

But, if you want to become a successful trader, find someone who is a damn good trader yet has the ability to teach (rare combo), a guy who you can call on for hours at a time of extensive professional help ...even at 9:00 at night or whenever you feel like it on weekends & holidays. Make sure they help you for as long as it takes...even if it takes years and hundreds of sessions with them. Make him pour over your trades to spot anything that you may have missed. Make him teach you everything he knows about trading and has spent his life learning.

 

Do all this, work his buns to the bone, and then DON"T PAY HIM A DIME! After all, he's just a trading instructor and everybody knows they're all lower than whale poop. They're all undeserving...no matter how good they are. Don't even bother to say thanks.

 

That idiotic logic will baffle me to my grave. Maybe then I can try my hand at mentoring to wmck6167.

[Roger Felton 10]

Its a futile task this mentorship stuff.

 

Lets face it, all you need to know is freely available on the internet. OK, theres A LOT of BS out there, but the only thing a mentor will be able to do is cut out the BS and make you focus on whats real.

 

With some effort and thought, most intelligent people will figure out the BS by themselves.

 

What no mentor can ever do though is install the drive to really want to be successful at this - which is what is needed.

 

Think of it like any pro sports where the rewards for success are extremely high. The rules of the game/sport are known by everyone, yet only a few have the dedication and drive to spend every waking hour+ to make it happen. The mentor will never be a shortcut for that. Aint gunna happen in the markets. No shortcuts here, just luck that sometimes appears to fool new traders they have found a shortcut.

 

Interesting comments. I'm sure you realize that the vast majority of traders on this forum are struggling with the "BS" and have been for quite some time. Are you saying they're all stupid?

 

I'm surprised that you mentioned "pro sports". A field where every single player who ever reached pro level (where they actually made money) whether it's baseball, football, basketball or hockey ALL HAD COACHES!! Even as pros...they still ALL HAVE COACHES!!

 

Why is that when everything they need to know about the rules of the game are right there on the Internet? Are they all stupid like you think your fellow forum members are?

 

I've seen a lot of ignorant posts on this forum but I'm moving this one to the top of the list.

[TheDude 10]

When you want to learn to swim, hire a swimming instructor and pay him. If you want to learn to fly, hire a pilot instructor...and pay him. If you want to be a pro golfer, hire a really good coach...and pay him.

 

But, if you want to become a successful trader, find someone who is a damn good trader yet has the ability to teach (rare combo), a guy who you can call on for hours at a time of extensive professional help ...even at 9:00 at night or whenever you feel like it on weekends & holidays. Make sure they help you for as long as it takes...even if it takes years and hundreds of sessions with them. Make him pour over your trades to spot anything that you may have missed. Make him teach you everything he knows about trading and has spent his life learning.

 

Do all this, work his buns to the bone, and then DON"T PAY HIM A DIME! After all, he's just a trading instructor and everybody knows they're all lower than whale poop. They're all undeserving...no matter how good they are. Don't even bother to say thanks.

 

That idiotic logic will baffle me to my grave. Maybe then I can try my hand at mentoring to wmck6167.

 

So whats the difference between a pro golfer and a successful trader?

 

Not a lot - they both need a lot of dedication. The coach in your example will never make Joe Public into a pro-golfer or pro anything. That decision can only come from Joe Public.

 

Did Pele have a pro football coach?

 

As for the pilot and swimmer - well sure, anyone can teach someone how to look at a chart, draw some silly lines and see what direction the markets going in. Someone taught me to swim once. I couldnt make a living from it though! 'Mentors' can even teach you how to place an order and the different types of orders and all the other stuff. Will that enable Joe Public to make money?

 

All half of these 'mentors' do is teach one how to become an analyst, and then the 'trader' goes off, performs analysis on the market and places trades accordingly. When the whole thing comes falling down, Joe Public then goes to the next level of mentorship - the trading psychologist!!! Here he's told he has a bunch of problems he never knew he had before (it's called being HUMAN), and he must eradicate these problems (of being HUMAN) if he's to get anywhere! The never ending circle of failure continues......

 

The real issue is, is that Joe Public never wanted to be an analyst with order entry capability, he wanted to be a trader. He got pulled in with all the BS however and started to think thats what traders do - analyse and place orders. He didnt realise traders, well, eeer, ummm, trade!

 

Sure, there is some analysis in being a trader, but it's analysis of value of x against y, its analysis of order flow. It's whole load of stuff that do not include lines on charts. Thats for analysts you see.

[Roger Felton 10]

Sorry - this would have to classify as bad advice of the worst kind. (uis that a double negative?)

 

Lets say you cant spell, but you get someone who can spell badly, but at least better than you - think of the mistakes you would have to unlearn first before actually being able to learn to spell correctly again.

 

You are far better continuing your search for a good mentor, and work out a lot of stuff yourself at the same time.....and as they say a protege does not get to choose - they are instead chosen.

Anyone who thinks that just anyone with some knowledge can successfully pass on adequate/good/exceptional knowledge that is appropriate to the student may be consigning themselves to the 'sorry but keep trying brigade'

 

Right on SIUYA. Anyone who chooses Larry, Curly or Moe to get trading advice will end up with a head full of useless mush and blow their account to bacon bits. Still, it happens every day and the ones who could actually help them the most take all the flak.

[TheDude 10]

Interesting comments. I'm sure you realize that the vast majority of traders on this forum are struggling with the "BS" and have been for quite some time. Are you saying they're all stupid?

 

I'm surprised that you mentioned "pro sports". A field where every single player who ever reached pro level (where they actually made money) whether it's baseball, football, basketball or hockey ALL HAD COACHES!! Even as pros...they still ALL HAVE COACHES!!

 

Why is that when everything they need to know about the rules of the game are right there on the Internet? Are they all stupid like you think your fellow forum members are?

 

I've seen a lot of ignorant posts on this forum but I'm moving this one to the top of the list.

 

I never used the word 'stupid'. You're simply trying to put words into others posts. Seems like you've got issues. Care to sit back on my couch and talk about them? It's ok, you're safe in here.

 

Guess what - a couple of years ago, I was talking to a psychologist (by chance in a bar) who was employed by banks and prop firms, HF's and the like to coach traders.

 

Big deal.

 

You're missing the point.

 

At the moment, were probably trying to get a bunch of guys who are losing or at break even, maybe making small money to taking down serious money. THATS when a coach comes in. BUT FIRST you need the fight. If you aint got the determination, no coach will help. EVER.

 

To try and peddle courses that pretend will turn George Average in to George Soros is misleading and perhaps deceitful. Maybe when George Average is George Somebody, and wants to go to the next level, THEN he can call the services of a PROFESSIONAL. But that first step isnt going to come from a course, a book, or anything else that isnt freely available.

 

How many stories are there that we know of where some parent goes out to get their kid the best piano teacher in the city. Years and years later, the kid knows how to play the piano, passed a few grades, but could get no further. Yet the teacher has coached grand masters of the world. How come the kid never got passed 3rd grade? The kid just didnt want to play the piano. Despite having the best coach money could buy.

[SIUYA 11]

There is a big difference in a mentor and protege relationship v a coach/teacher and player relationship.

[Roger Felton 10]

So whats the difference between a pro golfer and a successful trader?

 

Not a lot - they both need a lot of dedication. The coach in your example will never make Joe Public into a pro-golfer or pro anything. That decision can only come from Joe Public.

 

Did Pele have a pro football coach?

 

As for the pilot and swimmer - well sure, anyone can teach someone how to look at a chart, draw some silly lines and see what direction the markets going in. Someone taught me to swim once. I couldnt make a living from it though! 'Mentors' can even teach you how to place an order and the different types of orders and all the other stuff. Will that enable Joe Public to make money?

 

All half of these 'mentors' do is teach one how to become an analyst, and then the 'trader' goes off, performs analysis on the market and places trades accordingly. When the whole thing comes falling down, Joe Public then goes to the next level of mentorship - the trading psychologist!!! Here he's told he has a bunch of problems he never knew he had before (it's called being HUMAN), and he must eradicate these problems (of being HUMAN) if he's to get anywhere! The never ending circle of failure continues......

 

The real issue is, is that Joe Public never wanted to be an analyst with order entry capability, he wanted to be a trader. He got pulled in with all the BS however and started to think thats what traders do - analyse and place orders. He didnt realise traders, well, eeer, ummm, trade!

 

Sure, there is some analysis in being a trader, but it's analysis of value of x against y, its analysis of order flow. It's whole load of stuff that do not include lines on charts. Thats for analysts you see.

 

So, to be a trader, all one needs to do is read all the crap they can find on the Internet, then sit down and start pushing buttons? Advice is just confusing jibberish? Above all, do not analyze and try to get any logical idea what the market is likely to do, that's BS? Just close your eyes and click the mouse, huh?

 

Wow. I would have bet any amount of money that there wasn't one person on the planet that actually believed that. I'm actually stunned. If you actually follow your own advice, I'd bet anything you aren't making it as a trader. You get all your "training" from the bonehead bozos who post their trading tips on the Internet yet can't spell S&P?

 

Well, I guess since it's on the Internet, it has to be true, right? Reminds me of that TV commercial...."Uh, Bonjour!

[Roger Felton 10]

I never used the word 'stupid'. You're simply trying to put words into others posts. Seems like you've got issues. Care to sit back on my couch and talk about them? It's ok, you're safe in here.

 

Guess what - a couple of years ago, I was talking to a psychologist (by chance in a bar) who was employed by banks and prop firms, HF's and the like to coach traders.

 

Big deal.

 

You're missing the point.

 

At the moment, were probably trying to get a bunch of guys who are losing or at break even, maybe making small money to taking down serious money. THATS when a coach comes in. BUT FIRST you need the fight. If you aint got the determination, no coach will help. EVER.

 

To try and peddle courses that pretend will turn George Average in to George Soros is misleading and perhaps deceitful. Maybe when George Average is George Somebody, and wants to go to the next level, THEN he can call the services of a PROFESSIONAL. But that first step isnt going to come from a course, a book, or anything else that isnt freely available.

 

How many stories are there that we know of where some parent goes out to get their kid the best piano teacher in the city. Years and years later, the kid knows how to play the piano, passed a few grades, but could get no further. Yet the teacher has coached grand masters of the world. How come the kid never got passed 3rd grade? The kid just didnt want to play the piano. Despite having the best coach money could buy.

 

I stand corrected. You actually said, "With some effort and thought, most intelligent people will figure out the BS by themselves."

 

So, what I should have said is that you considered them to not be intelligent. I don't know how I could have been so far off. Forgive....

 

Look TD, I think you are the one who's missing the point. You keep talking about people lacking passion yet I have preached dozens of times in this forum that no one can ever become a trader without it. Without Strong drive and burning desire, it's not gonna happen. I think we all get that here. You're preaching to the choir.

 

What I'm talking about are teh multitudes of traders here who have spent small and large fortunes on systems, blown up an account, or several. Who have invested years of studying, practicing, and supreme effort and yet continue to lose.

 

Traders who have read all the Internet fluff you brag about yet still struggle. Traders who lose money on a daily basis because they have picked up a bad habit or two that they are not aware of...or they lack just a few pieces of the knowledge puzzle that they need to turn things around.

 

Your advice is to go comb the Internet some more and my advice is to get with someone who has seen their identical issues hundreds of times and has successfully worked through them the vast majority. To do that takes a hell of a lot of knowledge and many many years of experience. Effective, lasting help will never come from some trader's blog.

 

I think your understanding of the real function of a trading mentor is so warped by your miserable experience with an apparent fraud, that you can no longer be objective or even reasonable...and, as good as Pele was, he still had professionals at various times in his career that he worked with to help him be the best and stay that way. It's what truly good mentors do.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Roger Felton

[seberbach 10]

I wish to take exception to Dude's opinion, not to disagree with it. That "No mentor....can ever install the drive to really want to be successful at this - which is what is needed." Just my opinion, but it has for a long time been important to me when I think of trying to pay my "debt" by passing along gifts to others like my own mentors gifted to me in the past.

You might have really meant that many who are called mentors are actually not mentors in a strict sense of the word. I believe that people have passion, much of which which is latent, not yet switched on.

 

Not only can a Mentor "instill" the drive and passion needed to succeed, if a person does not positively influence or reinforce that miracle, whether it is manifest or latent, within another person, he or she really is not being a Mentor.

 

If somebody says they had a mentor who did not bestow some special power beyond just ordinary skill and knowledge, they really mean that teacher was not really a mentor for that particular somebody.

 

There must be a certain special mental, almost telepathic two-way exchange, or "chemistry" between two persons which goes beyond transferring just facts and ideas. What also needs to be "transferred" is "will", the desire and motivation to experience even in the face of discouragement or impatience. If the transferee has strong will, that will needs reinforcement and encouragement, not shortcuts or dogma. The mentor needs ability to kindle that will, drive, and passion if it is dampened. When you are really mentored you feel it. If you remember a teacher years ago in school who you still believe made a significant positive influence on your eventual path through life, that teacher was also a Mentor. The same applies to certain memorable people you may have worked with in the past, or are working with in the present, or in the future. What distinguishes them is that you can feel they want YOU to share in the benefits of their experience.

 

Another way to explain it is to start within the context that wisdom comes from experience. A Mentor is able to influence and help other people to willingly and intentionally partake of experiences which will give them wisdom, and experiences which will guard them from perils due to lack of wisdom. If "mentoring" happens to you, you will remember and be thankful you knew those persons who did that for you, and if you wish to be a mentor, you will try to be one of those persons somebody remembers for that gift.

 

IMHO that is how Mentors are "chosen".

[TheDude 10]

So, to be a trader, all one needs to do is read all the crap they can find on the Internet, then sit down and start pushing buttons? Advice is just confusing jibberish? Above all, do not analyze and try to get any logical idea what the market is likely to do, that's BS? Just close your eyes and click the mouse, huh?

 

Wow. I would have bet any amount of money that there wasn't one person on the planet that actually believed that. I'm actually stunned. If you actually follow your own advice, I'd bet anything you aren't making it as a trader. You get all your "training" from the bonehead bozos who post their trading tips on the Internet yet can't spell S&P?

 

Well, I guess since it's on the Internet, it has to be true, right? Reminds me of that TV commercial...."Uh, Bonjour!

 

 

 

I never said that either! Calm down pal, dont get too excited, were just having a discussion here. I said there was a lot of BS on the internet, and one use of a mentor may be to help focus on the valuable stuff - because there IS some valuable stuff out there.

 

As for your other comments regarding some 'missing link', I kind of half agree. But half of all mentors are all pushing the same old BS: Day trading off a OHLC/candlestick chart. There may be 1 or 2 people who can do this fair enough. Ive never met one though. Ever. Plenty of successful EOD and position traders using them - and Market Profile (which Im a big fan of) - but not day traders.

 

So you have a bunch of people all struggling using the same methods the industry and educational 'mentors' are pushing. See the connection yet?

 

What other tools are there for day trading? People never talk of these, yet almost every day trader has one!

 

So thats the issue. A bunch of 'mentors' who know jack shit about day trading teaching others about something they know ZERO about with the wrong tools! Just because its the 'industry standard' (read easier to sell)

 

Good luck with that.

Edited February 6, 2013 by TheDude

[wmck6167 10]

Hi, friends,

It really encouraged me since there are more replies than I expected. I can see your good hearts to help clarify what’s right about the mentorship. In my opinion, you guys may look the things from different angles. Some looks from inside out, some stands outside to look the one needed to be helped. It’s an interaction event for mentorship. Good mentor interact with someone sticks his perception, like me in the past, it won’t help a lot since human being may be hard to change the personality if from outside. But I believe the one start to devote his whole heart to figure it out what’s going on in the trading, he may start to receive the crown of life in trading. Isn’t it? Best to your trades with peace.

[Roger Felton 10]

I never said that either! Calm down pal, dont get too excited, were just having a discussion here. I said there was a lot of BS on the internet, and one use of a mentor may be to help focus on the valuable stuff - because there IS some valuable stuff out there.

 

As for your other comments regarding some 'missing link', I kind of half agree. But half of all mentors are all pushing the same old BS: Day trading off a OHLC/candlestick chart. There may be 1 or 2 people who can do this fair enough. Ive never met one though. Ever. Plenty of successful EOD and position traders using them - and Market Profile (which Im a big fan of) - but not day traders.

 

So you have a bunch of people all struggling using the same methods the industry and educational 'mentors' are pushing. See the connection yet?

 

What other tools are there for day trading? People never talk of these, yet almost every day trader has one!

 

So thats the issue. A bunch of 'mentors' who know jack shit about day trading teaching others about something they know ZERO about with the wrong tools! Just because its the 'industry standard' (read easier to sell)

 

Good luck with that.

 

This has always been nothing more than a discussion. We can only respond to the statements of others with the knowledge we have accumulated through experience. Your beliefs about mentors and "gurus" is completely understandable. Even as I write this, some truck driver is planning to park his Peterbuilt and become a market expert next week...as soon as he can figure out what a chart is.

 

All of these slimeball scam masters have common elements that are easy to spot. They all state (or strongly imply) that their indicators, system, method or course will get any trader to whatever goals they set quickly and easily. Requires little or no effort and can be learned in a day. They all teach the same tired ole crap everyone else does...S&R, Fibonacci, Pivots, Market Profile, Market Delta, Gann, Elliot Wave...and on and on and on. That's like learning basket weaving to become a doctor. Even if it helps, it's far short of what's necessary.

 

When you do a search of their operation, you find tons of former students with lots of horror stories begging you to beware. These jerks can't even maintain an A rating with the BBB. They can't teach, they can't help, but they can sell with enough pressure to make diamonds.

 

They also NEVER receive kudos from their followers like this that just came accross in the Trading Room while I was typing this:

[11:51] Leigh Ev****ton-Student: Hey Roger - thanks again for the one on one session. just finished the day 98 ticks up

Please understand, I included this to make a point that not all educator/mentors in this maggot infested industry are worthless bums. It was not posted to "self-promote". Those who have been following my posts for the past year or so know that I refuse to accept any student client (on a fee basis) that originates from this forum. That way, I can talk honestly and openly and not be accused of having a hidden agenda.

 

However, anyone in the forum who wants my help can have it for free for the asking. In this forum, I'm just another trader willing to help others however I can just like most other seasoned traders here do.

[DbPhoenix 42]

Picks and shovels . . . . . . .

[wmck6167 10]

In my opinions, there are two types of traders, one is used other people’s money and the other is using own money. I believe that it shall have some differences in mentorship learning, no matter you learned from dead or alive person. For retailer trading, if people can easily know your cost information and this interaction game become more complex. Isn’t it?

Cheers,

[Roger Felton 10]

In my opinions, there are two types of traders, one is used other people’s money and the other is using own money. I believe that it shall have some differences in mentorship learning, no matter you learned from dead or alive person. For retailer trading, if people can easily know your cost information and this interaction game become more complex. Isn’t it?

Cheers,

 

Personally, I've always had the best experience with dead mentors. They don't scream at me much, slap me silly, kick me in the southern posterior and they don't ask for money. Best of all, they know how to listen to my trading troubles without interrupting. I never met a bad dead mentor, just a few that smelled that way.