Who Makes More Money?

[Perrin 10]

And eventually the discussion lead to why one was better\different than the other ... and hopefully you remembered that lesson the next time you were on the field. And don't you have fond memories of being a kid? Growing up sometimes sucks doesn't it?

 

MMS

 

Growing up does indeed suck in many ways. And it's bloody difficult. It does have its advantages, though.

[TheDude 10]

The best of the best ( Buffet, Soros, and similar) make on the average 25-35% per year over long term ( over their life time as traders). You have to keep that in mind when some claim 100% or more return, bcos it is not going to last ( if it is even true). Anyone can have a good run, for a while and project that long term, but it is not realistic.

 

Just imagine if you can do 500% a year... In short time you would be able to buy universe thanks to compounding effect

 

Nope.

 

I think burn out or boredom is the reason most successful scalpers quit after a while - assuming they are ahead. When you've got a millions, why sit behind the screen all day? The real big hitters I know who made their money scalping either position trade now, set up prop firms or go into private equity, set up funds etc.

 

And of course, you cant compound continually as you suggest scalping - or any kind of trading as you reach liquidity issues in any market.

 

You simply cant compare a successful scalper like Rotter et al with Buffett. One is a trader, the other owns a conglomerate thats mostly involved in insurance and also happens to own some shares.

 

Neither can you compare a trader with a hedge fund. It's just daft. HF's have regulations etc they must abide by. Independent traders dont. They can do what they like. The trader will have less than a mil in his account and can make that into another mil fairly quickly in one or 2 markets making quick decisions. The HF may have billions, and has to think about liquidity, diversification, AND regulation. HF's also need to appear as being very complex and sophisticated in what they do to justify fees and attract investment. The more of a dark art it looks the better. HF needs a smooth equity curve, nice sharp ratio's etc.

Edited January 9, 2013 by TheDude

[MightyMouse 12]

And eventually the discussion lead to why one was better\different than the other ... and hopefully you remembered that lesson the next time you were on the field. And don't you have fond memories of being a kid? Growing up sometimes sucks doesn't it?

 

MMS

 

Are you kidding? Being a kid was great. I can go on and on about the fun I had and the shit I was able to get away with, but being an adult is so much better. As kids we had limited mobility, legal restrictions, difficulty attaining money to buy things, lack of knowledge, etc.

 

Oh my God all the mistakes that I made that I do not make anymore. It isn't that I don't make mistakes because i certainly do, but I don't make the same dumb mistakes that I used to make over and over again as I did when I was younger; younger includes anything up to yesterday.

 

I welcome the future with arms wide open for anything I can do with it, but you would have to drag me kicking and screaming to go back through the years of my youth knowing that I would make similar mistakes again.

 

The guys that make the most money are the guys that trade long term trends, know how to trade trends, and are trading trends in a period of time when there are are long term trends and quit at or about the time that markets stop trending. If they remain humble they can walk away with a lot of money. The guys that believe that they have something to do with it, get lacerated and even end up bankrupt.

 

Read Market Wizards and do follow up research on the individuals who are profiled to come up with your own conclusion.

 

No comment on swing traders with big stops

 

No comment on scalpers

 

Soros and Buffet do not average 35% a year. I have no idea where that information came from. Maybe about 10-12% and that is just maybe.

 

Soros had one of the single largest trading loses ever recorded.

[SunTrader 10]

And eventually the discussion lead to ....

........ more grown up thoughts like how and what I am doing and not concern myself about what others are up to - especially others that haven't a chance (bankroll) of emulating.

 

Kardashianism.

[SunTrader 10]

- it was better in my day......

Never said that .

[SIUYA 11]

Never said that .

 

never said you did.....only a grumpy old man might think that but i can understand how you might draw that from my reply - not intended.....the limiting power of textual discussions.

 

more along the lines of there are some nice things about being a kid, we should not throw those things out, and plus too many grumpy old men with flawed memories.

you know the ones - 'back in my day......'

or 'my schooldays where the best years of my life......'

 

anyways - how did we get onto kids - how do they make the most money....

[TheDude 10]

Are you kidding? Being a kid was great. I can go on and on about the fun I had and the shit I was able to get away with, but being an adult is so much better. As kids we had limited mobility, legal restrictions, difficulty attaining money to buy things, lack of knowledge, etc.

 

Oh my God all the mistakes that I made that I do not make anymore. It isn't that I don't make mistakes because i certainly do, but I don't make the same dumb mistakes that I used to make over and over again as I did when I was younger; younger includes anything up to yesterday.

 

I welcome the future with arms wide open for anything I can do with it, but you would have to drag me kicking and screaming to go back through the years of my youth knowing that I would make similar mistakes again.

 

The guys that make the most money are the guys that trade long term trends, know how to trade trends, and are trading trends in a period of time when there are are long term trends and quit at or about the time that markets stop trending. If they remain humble they can walk away with a lot of money. The guys that believe that they have something to do with it, get lacerated and even end up bankrupt.

 

Read Market Wizards and do follow up research on the individuals who are profiled to come up with your own conclusion.

 

No comment on swing traders with big stops

 

No comment on scalpers

 

Soros and Buffet do not average 35% a year. I have no idea where that information came from. Maybe about 10-12% and that is just maybe.

 

Soros had one of the single largest trading loses ever recorded.

 

When I was a kid, I remember being able to piss really high into the air. My mates at school would see who could stand furthest back from the urinal and still hit it.

 

Looking back, I feel real sorry for the janitor having to mop up all that piss from 7 year olds.

 

:rofl:

[SunTrader 10]

- how do they make the most money....

Well what I did say in so many words is I don't care how others make it.

[:::grimReaper::: 10]

According to table (attached pic) from this paper:

https://sceeto.zendesk.com/attachments/token/nakjp4gnkvimi8a/?name=The+Trading+Profits+of+High+Frequency+Traders-+Baron-Brogaard-Kirilenko.pdf

 

HFT ainec, at least when just measuring the ES

[kevin78 10]

Major diference between Rich and Poor people is PATIENCE.

Rich people understand that making 20% a month is nonsence, so the are patient to Invest for 1% to 3% a month, and it's plenty.

While poor people are not satisfied with that, they want 100% a month, so risks they take are unbelievable and the end up with no money at all. So they stay POOR.

 

So scalpers are either Smart or Rich people, probably RICH.

[arvo 10]

Nope.

 

I think burn out or boredom is the reason most successful scalpers quit after a while - assuming they are ahead. When you've got a millions, why sit behind the screen all day? The real big hitters I know who made their money scalping either position trade now, set up prop firms or go into private equity, set up funds etc.

 

And of course, you cant compound continually as you suggest scalping - or any kind of trading as you reach liquidity issues in any market. .

 

A very good profit re liquidity - but that becomes any issue once you want to trade many lots at a time - but well, that's the point in time when you need to set up a HFT model - which in turn becomes position trading on a short timeframe.

 

But before I'm there, I think scalping can be a very quick launchpad to big big profits from starting small and compounding when done right.

 

BTW, I read a good article on FuturesMag last year (couldn't find it just now), but ir proved mathematically with formulas etc that the most profitable approach is part-scalp, part-swing, i.e. enter as a scalper with minimal stop loss, exist the scalp position (which may vary depending on immediate market conditions - range or trend) after the one directional move scalp target, set to break even and swing the rest. Imho this is the best approach to day trading.

[jajuanm2 10]

Day trade/scalp for income and swing/position trade for wealth. Not many day traders on the Forbes list of riches people.

[todds 10]

The question needs refining to be more relevant to most of the members of TL. I doubt if anyone here has Buffett-like money and some of us don't have 50 years to compound.

 

It seems to me that imbedded within the original question was the assumption that the trader's account size afforded him/her the choice of trading style. An account of $150 billion leaves but one choice. In addition, for a trader who is 60 years old, long term investing does not allow them many years left to enjoy their success.

 

With that, how about refining the question to something like: assuming competency, who makes more money over a 5 year (or 10 year) period starting with a $50,000 account, the scalper, the swing trader, or the investor?

[Tams 20]

Re: Who Makes More Money?

 

the broker makes the most money

[SunTrader 10]

Re: Who Makes More Money?

 

the broker makes the most money

 

It took 39 posts but Tams nailed it.

[bj139 10]

I just saw on the news that Burlington Northern (Warren bought it recently) projects oil shipments by rail will be up 40% in 2013. My first thought was, "don't they ship that stuff by pipeline". Then I remembered the Keystone pipeline. Enough said.

[SunTrader 10]

I just saw on the news that Burlington Northern (Warren bought it recently) projects oil shipments by rail will be up 40% in 2013. My first thought was, "don't they ship that stuff by pipeline". Then I remembered the Keystone pipeline. Enough said.

Too much.

 

Or not much - to do with this subject.

 

But BTW Keystone was for Canadian oil. NB is hauling shale rock oil from areas where there is rail, but no pipeline.

 

Anyway anyone who thinks Warren Buffett makes money from trading. The real money he makes is from his "bread and butter" - insurance. License to print money.

[bj139 10]

Too much.

 

Or not much - to do with this subject.

 

But BTW Keystone was for Canadian oil. NB is hauling shale rock oil from areas where there is rail, but no pipeline.

 

Anyway anyone who thinks Warren Buffett makes money from trading. The real money he makes is from his "bread and butter" - insurance. License to print money.

 

I just got an email. The web version is here.

Could THIS Man Kill TransCanada's Pipeline?

 

When someone asks how Warren Buffet makes his money I think it IS appropriate to discuss it.

[SunTrader 10]

I just got an email..

 

You can make it what you want but the question was not how, but who is the most profitable.

 

Read the first post again.

 

Buffett still makes MOST of his money from hawking insurance and re-insurance.

[bj139 10]

You can make it what you want but the question was not how, but who is the most profitable.

 

Read the first post again.

 

Buffett still makes MOST of his money from hawking insurance and re-insurance.

I thought TL existed to discuss how. Unbelievable.

[SunTrader 10]

I thought TL existed to discuss how. Unbelievable.

Believe this, you obviously didn't read the first post either.

 

And yes I am the ultimate ruler of TL and you can't say how.

 

Duh!

 

Obviously in discussing who or what style makes the most money one can say it came from this or that. But does everything and every subject have to have a political spin on it?

 

I respect Buffett and anyone else who makes it big even though he is a bit hypocritical. Taking subsidies, tax breaks etc. but then saying he doesn't get taxed high enough.

 

I happen to have 2 cousins that work in the oil exploration industry. And from what I have discussed with them and read in the news many new areas where there is drilling (frack-oil) do not have pipeland infrastrure available but do have rail lines.

 

So what do you, Buffett's company own a rail company. And maybe he bought it for that reason. He is also a large McDonald and Coca-Cola shareholder. I guess he is responsible for much of America having fat-azz asses too.

 

What else can we rant about the man?

 

Which in the end has just about nothing to do with "Who Makes More Money?'

[MightyMouse 12]

You can make it what you want but the question was not how, but who is the most profitable.

 

Read the first post again.

 

Buffett still makes MOST of his money from hawking insurance and re-insurance.

 

selling insurance and reinsurance is a trade isn't it? Same thing, almost as options.

[bj139 10]

Who's ranting? Certainly not me.

Making business deals is part of business.

Warren does it better than most.

[SunTrader 10]

selling insurance and reinsurance is a trade isn't it? Same thing, almost as options.

 

True but then just about anything could be considered trading then.

 

As you know a worker trades his labor for pay etc.etc.

[Ammeo 10]

Major diference between Rich and Poor people is PATIENCE.

Rich people understand that making 20% a month is nonsence, so the are patient to Invest for 1% to 3% a month, and it's plenty.

While poor people are not satisfied with that, they want 100% a month, so risks they take are unbelievable and the end up with no money at all. So they stay POOR.

 

So scalpers are either Smart or Rich people, probably RICH.

 

Not necessarily ,the more you trade the more are the chances that'll u'll make losing trades ..my personal psychology is to trade less but trade only when u are sure abt it....scalping is just a miss or hit game which cant make people the ones that are on the Forbes list...Those who became rich invested only in the things they were sure of making profits (though there is no holy grail but there is a big % success chance on thoroughly researched trades)..