Getting Out of My Own Way

[Enigmatics 10]

Been a while since I've posted on here. I hope everyone has had a nice start to their 2013 and is propsering in their trading.

 

At any rate, today was not a good day. In fact it was pathetic and I broke a number of my own rules. Prior to today's session I had been on a very nice 3.5 week run, but today's relapse cost me practically all of it. The first thing I want to touch upon is the mindset I carried into the trading day. It breaks down into two areas which my trading often comes into conflict with and boy did it rear it's ugly head. Let me know if this is familiar to any of you:

 

#1 - I had a number today that I was "defending" in my mind. No matter what, I did not want to take a loss which would've brought me under "x-value".

 

#2 - Even though I put on a nice 3.5 week performance, I left a lot of profit out there on the table in favor of the quick and easy ones.

 

The irony of #1 is that not only did I fall below that number, I somehow convinced myself to hold a losing position and it got tremendously worse. I flat out ignored confirmation that my trade was a failure and that dreadful "hope" word crept into my mind instead of remaining systematic about the situation. It's that moment you lose mental control, thinking that if you take a loss here, there may not be another trade today to work your way back with or possibly go green. It didn't help that in the back of my mind I didn't want to fall below a certain accoutn value and in almost a self-sabotaging way I made it happen.

 

Now onto #2. I constantly go back and forth with this issue. Even though I had been on a nice 3.5 week run, I was growing unsettled because of my inability to maximize positions. I swear, every single time I've gotten that mindset I've gotten smacked down by something like today's trading.

 

So where am I going with all this? I dunno. It's part vent post because there's nobody in real life I can talk to about it, but I'm also seeking out advice for overcoming these issues. I trade for a living btw and I have one particular strategy that I know like the back of my hand. If I just wait for it, I have far better understanding of the expected reaction than any other setup I might try to trade. Today's loser trade was not that trade. I could almost tear my hair out thinking about it because I was up $180 on the position before it ran into an area I knew as potential resistance, but because of other chart factors and not maxing previous gains, I convinced myself to let it breathe even though my gut was screaming "TAKE TAKE TAKE TAKE". Ironically, later towards mid-day I got the perferred setup and I traded it for one of the largest single trade wins I've had lately, albeit I took a 30% gain on what turned out to be a 70% move. Why did it take me digging myself a gigantic hole just to get to it? It's happened before and it's baffling how my largest single wins are on the heels of crap trades.

 

I have been in this trading bubble where I only feel comfortable using 3 contracts and risk of anywhere between $600-$1200 which represents less than 3% of my capital. I know that I can consistently day trade and make a $200-$250 a day using AAPL options if I just take quick profit. As I said before, I've had opportunity to make more, but I keep punking out of winning positions too soon. I wish every move went straight up or down to expected targets, but that is typically not the case and I struggle to ride out the ebb & flow before it gets there. Some of that is because of the "theta" factor in dealing with options, particularly weeklies. I feel as though scaling could help me tremendously, but my dependancy on 3 contracts prevents it. I have not forced myself to become accustomed to taking on more risk where scaling would make sense. I've grown tired re-arriving at this apex where I'm unnappreciative of the gains I've been making, then I try to squeeze more out of a trade and I get burned for it. It's got that "damned if I do, but damned if I don't" vibe to it.

 

What have some of you done to overcome some of these hurdles? Did you literally just force yourselves? Been doing this for almost 2.5 years now and I feel like these hiccups should not be happening anymore. I have a system with an extremely reliable win expectancy. I can trade it whether the stock is going up or down. I just want to get out of my own way! :crap:

Edited January 4, 2013 by Enigmatics

[steve46 12]

Based on your comments, it seems you have established a pattern of behavior that produces a negative result

 

To compound that, in your comment you suggest that all you need is to "get out of your own way"....actually what you need is the opposite...to stop "giving it all back"...you need to understand what you are doing (actually it is what you are "thinking") and then put yourself in a position to interrupt that negative process....

 

Those few of us who have had access to professional training are taught to go through a process similar to what pro sports teams do....instead of looking at "game films"....we spend the weekend going back over trades, one at a time, trying to remember what we were thinking as we watched each setup develop, through to the end result for better or worse....

 

The process is painstaking and slow but worth your time....generally speaking retail traders all fall prey to the same problematic thought processes as follows

 

1. They free lance, taking trades that aren't quite right for their system

2. When the trade goes pear shaped, they fail to act quickly to stop the bleeding

3. When they eventually do stop the trade, the result affects them so much that they spend too much time thinking about that mistake, and they fail to see the next quality setup, or they see it too late

4. They may continue to be distracted by previous losses and bet too heavily on the next trade, causing a circular process that is difficult to difuse

5. They fail to see this circular process and continue to trade, when in fact they should stop and figure it out...

 

What you really need is to take the time to figure out where you are going wrong....it isn't in your description (your post) but in your thought process....THEN THE NEXT TIME YOU SEE THAT PROCESS DEVELOPING, YOU SEE IT AND STEP IN TO INTERRUPT THE PROCESS....

 

The process (the analysis, identification of the problem, and arriving at a solution) is tedious but can be accompished over a weekend if you are motivated to do the work.

 

Good luck

[wmck6167 10]

“THEN THE NEXT TIME YOU SEE THAT PROCESS DEVELOPING, YOU SEE IT AND STEP IN TO INTERRUPT THE PROCESS....” What a great say!!! I am not a professional trader, but here is my way to share.

 

Even I developed that kind of process at the beginning, I still felt not easy to control myself. So I developed my way to interrupt it::doh:

 

When I saw that process developed, I on purpose step in the old one and no surprise see it failed as usual as I expected. Now I told myself that I only have a second chance and I need to hold it right. Then I stepped in to my new process without excuses…. :crap:

 

Cheers and FYI.

 

Ps: But in my opinion, mental process may so complicate and obedience is also so complex process. Have a great and peaceful trades in this New Year.:missy:

[SIUYA 11]

Always hard to comment and sometimes these may/maynot help, and we have all been here, and will often revisit......but as you asked....

 

The first thing I want to touch upon is the mindset I carried into the trading day. It breaks down into two areas which my trading often comes into conflict with and boy did it rear it's ugly head. Let me know if this is familiar to any of you:

 

#1 - I had a number today that I was "defending" in my mind. No matter what, I did not want to take a loss which would've brought me under "x-value".

 

#2 - Even though I put on a nice 3.5 week performance, I left a lot of profit out there on the table in favor of the quick and easy ones.

 

You already realise there is a conflict.......in other words, your plan/strategy has flaws/holes or the lack of self beleif in it. If you can recognise these, then maybe you can minimise these days....however, over the long term the problem will remain.

Eliminating the conflict might minimise the "hope" and lack of systematic following of the plan.

It seems it works most of the time with a high win rate, but it then appears you really dont want a high win rate, you feel you are leaving money on the table.

Maybe you need to work out what it is you want to get out of trading - beyond the monetary measure.

 

Question you might ask....

Now onto #2. I constantly go back and forth with this issue. Even though I had been on a nice 3.5 week run, I was growing unsettled because of my inability to maximize positions. I swear, every single time I've gotten that mindset I've gotten smacked down by something like today's trading.

 

do you want to increase your size, or increase the length you run your winners?

do you want to maximise your strength of a high win rate and simply increase the volume?

are you uncomfortable with higher volumes, or is it the monetary values that make you uneasy?

 

 

Today's loser trade was not that trade. I could almost tear my hair out thinking about it because I was up $180 on the position before it ran into an area I knew as potential resistance, but because of other chart factors and not maxing previous gains, I convinced myself to let it breathe even though my gut was screaming "TAKE TAKE TAKE TAKE". Ironically, later towards mid-day I got the perferred setup and I traded it for one of the largest single trade wins I've had lately, albeit I took a 30% gain on what turned out to be a 70% move. Why did it take me digging myself a gigantic hole just to get to it? It's happened before and it's baffling how my largest single wins are on the heels of crap trades.

 

so the bread and butter trade was not the problem, you wanted to open a fine dining restaurant when you are better off increasing the sucessful chain of fast food outlets you already have.....??

do you want to increase size, or trade differently?

There are trade offs to all these.....

 

...........if I just take quick profit. As I said before, I've had opportunity to make more, but I keep punking out of winning positions too soon.

 

IMHO - here is a massive conflict - there is a trade off here that causes a lot of the problem......do you want to run them, or take profit quickly - dont do what theoretically makes the most money - do what you do best and what works (because the the theory falls down otherwise)

 

You even recognise this conflict----- "unnappreciative of the gains I've been making",

 

How to stop it - what will work for you might not work for others......but i think you need to eliminate the conflict first.

Steve offers the advice of a slow and painful review - and its good advice, but dont then look for confirmation bias of what works in review or practice - because while you are in the trade and having all these thoughts once you have exited these thoughts generally go, take it the next level -

Think of a trade whereby you took a profit or a loss on- a regular trade.....expand on this.

You have a trade - and are running it, it reverses and gives up your unrealised profit - how do you feel?

you have a trade - and a running it, it keeps going, and going and going - can you not interfere, or are you better at letting it run, or better at taking lots of small profits?

 

Play to your strengths - it might be boring, but thats often good trading.

 

Hope this helps in ideas.

[Enigmatics 10]

Based on your comments, it seems you have established a pattern of behavior that produces a negative result

 

To compound that, in your comment you suggest that all you need is to "get out of your own way"....actually what you need is the opposite...to stop "giving it all back"...you need to understand what you are doing (actually it is what you are "thinking") and then put yourself in a position to interrupt that negative process....

 

Those few of us who have had access to professional training are taught to go through a process similar to what pro sports teams do....instead of looking at "game films"....we spend the weekend going back over trades, one at a time, trying to remember what we were thinking as we watched each setup develop, through to the end result for better or worse....

 

The process is painstaking and slow but worth your time....generally speaking retail traders all fall prey to the same problematic thought processes as follows

 

1. They free lance, taking trades that aren't quite right for their system

2. When the trade goes pear shaped, they fail to act quickly to stop the bleeding

3. When they eventually do stop the trade, the result affects them so much that they spend too much time thinking about that mistake, and they fail to see the next quality setup, or they see it too late

4. They may continue to be distracted by previous losses and bet too heavily on the next trade, causing a circular process that is difficult to difuse

5. They fail to see this circular process and continue to trade, when in fact they should stop and figure it out...

 

What you really need is to take the time to figure out where you are going wrong....it isn't in your description (your post) but in your thought process....THEN THE NEXT TIME YOU SEE THAT PROCESS DEVELOPING, YOU SEE IT AND STEP IN TO INTERRUPT THE PROCESS....

 

The process (the analysis, identification of the problem, and arriving at a solution) is tedious but can be accompished over a weekend if you are motivated to do the work.

 

Good luck

 

Trust me, I'm always motivated. I typically always review my trades, especially the losers and problem shoot what went wrong. In reviewing yesterday's trade, I'm really disappointed in my trading behavior in that moment, as well as trading on lousy signals. It's almost like that rookie trader from 3 years ago suddenly possessed me.

 

You're right about "interrupting the thought process". I can remember sitting there watching the trade confirm that it had failed and I didn't stop out. I knew in that moment I needed to stop out. However, the mindset I carried into the day about not falling below "x-value" came into conflict with it. Suddenly I was below that value and that perilous hope holding took over.

[Enigmatics 10]

You already realise there is a conflict.......in other words, your plan/strategy has flaws/holes or the lack of self beleif in it. If you can recognise these, then maybe you can minimise these days....however, over the long term the problem will remain.

Eliminating the conflict might minimise the "hope" and lack of systematic following of the plan.

 

It seems it works most of the time with a high win rate, but it then appears you really dont want a high win rate, you feel you are leaving money on the table.

Maybe you need to work out what it is you want to get out of trading - beyond the monetary measure.

 

Well, again I'm trading for a living. That being said, I know successful traders who stopped making it about the $-factor and suddenly it turned everything around for them. They began making it about strictly conducting the trade. The major conflict happening right now is that I know I can conduct trades at a high win rate, but I'm not making the money I believe I could. Yet, I'm in this comfort zone with 3 contracts using only $600-$1200 risk. Commonly I'll be in my preferred setup, I see $200-$250 up on the unrealized gains on the first part of them move. Suddenly I get impulsive and have to take the easy money even though I know from God knows how many times I've traded this setup that there's more to the move. I convince myself that taking 2 contracts off and leaving 1 to ride isn't "worth it", but yet I'm very timid about raising my risk tolerance.

 

do you want to increase your size, or increase the length you run your winners?

do you want to maximise your strength of a high win rate and simply increase the volume?

are you uncomfortable with higher volumes, or is it the monetary values that make you uneasy?

 

Good question. Ultimately, I'd like to increase my holding time on my winners. But again that's a tricky situation because of the conflict I just previously described. Sometimes I think that if I used say 8 contracts, I wouldn't get so upset about not maxing out gains as aa quick 10%,15%,20% burst on that kind of capital would be stellar imo. Yet, I'm not mentally ready to handle a position with that much risk on the table.

 

so the bread and butter trade was not the problem, you wanted to open a fine dining restaurant when you are better off increasing the sucessful chain of fast food outlets you already have.....??

do you want to increase size, or trade differently?

There are trade offs to all these.....

 

Ya, definitely trade-offs to each. As you said, the bread and butter trade is not the problem. However, it requires me to be willing to wait for it, which I sometimes do not do (as illustrated by the losing trade I posted about). There could be a day where the setup doesn't present itself or the range on AAPL isn't large enough to justify me using my normal conservative position sizes. Am I ok with that? So far I haven't acquiesced. Typically it takes some time for the trade to develop (often til around mid-day), but I often find myself being lured into the liquid portion of the first 15-20mins of trading. Perhaps if I was making the times when I get my setup count and I maximized them, I wouldn't mind trading less .....

 

IMHO - here is a massive conflict - there is a trade off here that causes a lot of the problem......do you want to run them, or take profit quickly - dont do what theoretically makes the most money - do what you do best and what works (because the the theory falls down otherwise)

 

You even recognise this conflict----- "unnappreciative of the gains I've been making",

 

How to stop it - what will work for you might not work for others......but i think you need to eliminate the conflict first.

Steve offers the advice of a slow and painful review - and its good advice, but dont then look for confirmation bias of what works in review or practice - because while you are in the trade and having all these thoughts once you have exited these thoughts generally go, take it the next level -

Think of a trade whereby you took a profit or a loss on- a regular trade.....expand on this.

You have a trade - and are running it, it reverses and gives up your unrealised profit - how do you feel?

you have a trade - and a running it, it keeps going, and going and going - can you not interfere, or are you better at letting it run, or better at taking lots of small profits?

 

Play to your strengths - it might be boring, but thats often good trading.

 

Hope this helps in ideas.

 

My strength is definitely identifying the preferred setup and trading the first pop of it. That is without a doubt. It's just that I believe over the long haul (especially since I trade for a living) it limits the growth potential and is further compounded when I make mistakes Iike I did on Friday.

 

I agree with you on the reviewing issue about hindsight confirmation bias. As we watch charts, they are evolving on a second to second basis. Every moment is unique and anything can happen. We are essentially managers of the unknown when you really think about it.

[SIUYA 11]

what would happen if you left some trades to really run?

If the entry setup is really good then is the trade off worth it?

 

If so, your solution might be to open two separate accounts. One to let it run, the other too just chip away with lots of small wins.

Ultimately there is no right or wrong, you just need to get to a spot that it makes sense, and you can do it consistently.

I often have an impulsive trading urge - a flaw.....sometimes i stop it, other times i just make sure i have a very tight stop when i no its not the ideal trade. I have not been able to eliminate this urge so my solution was to ensure i modify the trade management. If you cant come up with something that stops the pain/flaw - either before, or during then another profession might be in order....

OR - you modify the whole thing.....my real good easy money is made in sitting on longer term trades

 

it seems you have a similar issue and all i can suggest is things such as .......

- look at more instruments,

- out of habit place a stop on every trade (worse case, broker is happy, but you will not have any large losses - if you start moving these, well there are deeper issues),

- if you only have one setup, turn off the computer at those times of the day its unlikely to give you any joy

- develop another setup (the same setup with different scale outs is the same strategy multiplied, just with a different payoff)

- paper trade the set up at the same time as live with 20x your ideal size - it might inoculate the mind as to what an acceptable size is - especially if its a mental qty issue and not a risk issue.

- turn off the $ signs - you might not be as tempted to take the easy $250.....

- if you are trading 3 contracts - take 2 contracts off at the $250, and place an order to buy 3 contacts at the original price, original stop......think about it - what has changed, you might get a second bite at it, similar/same original risk.

- if the real strength is in lots of small clips - accept that, and do more instruments, work on automation for some/all of it - pretty soon $250 turns to 3x$250, to 8x$250, 20x$250 etc.

 

I think its great that you realise the limitations of strategy, and working on it might take time as you have the pressures of requiring the income from it. It might just be a matter of review, trial and error as for what works. In time you might hope that you look at $250 and say - i wouldnt get out of bed for that.

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

What have some of you done to overcome some of these hurdles? Did you literally just force yourselves? Been doing this for almost 2.5 years now and I feel like these hiccups should not be happening anymore. I have a system with an extremely reliable win expectancy. I can trade it whether the stock is going up or down. I just want to get out of my own way! :crap:

 

I was never successful as a daytrader, but here are three techniques that I found helpful:

 

1. Cover up the $P&L on your screen with a bit of tape to help you forget about the actual money involved and focus on the trade management instead.

 

2. Have someone sit with you who knows nothing about trading and is totally dis-interested. Explain to them the rules for what you're doing (specifically, the flaw that you're trying to avoid), and have them slap your hand when you're about to do something you shouldn't. Build good habits.

 

3. Follow SIUYA's suggestion and trade many times your usual size in SIM. You could even do the opposite of point 1 above in SIM - close your chart and focus on the $P&L alone to manage your trade - once you're watching positions bounce around at thousands of dollars per tick you'll soon gain perspective.

 

The reasons I failed as a daytrader were more to do with poor strategy than lack of discipline - given that you have a strategy that you know you can be consistently profitable with, then it would be a terrific shame if you can't find ways to manage your behaviour to take adavantage of it.

 

Good luck!

 

BlueHorseshoe

[Enigmatics 10]

The reasons I failed as a daytrader were more to do with poor strategy than lack of discipline - given that you have a strategy that you know you can be consistently profitable with, then it would be a terrific shame if you can't find ways to manage your behaviour to take adavantage of it.

 

Good luck!

 

BlueHorseshoe

 

That is EXACTLY how I feel about this. :dito

[Berzerk 10]

Enigmatics,

I have only this short advice for you, which in fact helps me tremendously in my trading.

When you're anxious to take the quick profits, leave the position on and go for a walk.

When you feel good about your position, close it.

 

Give this a try and see what happens.

[Rande Howell 10]

You might want to read the article, Making Better Mistakes to Develop Your Inner Game, I posted in the article section of Trader Psychology on the TL site. It addresses some of the problems, and their root, that you bring into this conversation.

 

Adding to Steve's review suggestion is the notion of recording either auditory or video of yourself as you are evaluating what is appearing on your screens as you trade. Talk your thoughts out as you do this process (talk aloud to yourself). This really helps slow the reactive process down so that you can unpack it and look at it. Most people are blown away by what they hear/see coming out of their mouths when they do this process. Then do the process in slow motion as a visualization where you start catching the triggering of the self limiting pattern activating and taking over the trader's mind. This is a process I use with my clients.

 

This isn't a magic wand solution to your problem, but it will give you a tool to see the problem from a new perspective that can allow you to interrupt and redesign the thought process you bring to the trading moment. There is always some embedded emotional "stuff" that is linked to the pattern that has be re-engineered.

 

I appreciate your candor here.

 

Good luck

Rande Howell

[Enigmatics 10]

You might want to read the article, Making Better Mistakes to Develop Your Inner Game, I posted in the article section of Trader Psychology on the TL site. It addresses some of the problems, and their root, that you bring into this conversation.

 

Adding to Steve's review suggestion is the notion of recording either auditory or video of yourself as you are evaluating what is appearing on your screens as you trade. Talk your thoughts out as you do this process (talk aloud to yourself). This really helps slow the reactive process down so that you can unpack it and look at it. Most people are blown away by what they hear/see coming out of their mouths when they do this process. Then do the process in slow motion as a visualization where you start catching the triggering of the self limiting pattern activating and taking over the trader's mind. This is a process I use with my clients.

 

This isn't a magic wand solution to your problem, but it will give you a tool to see the problem from a new perspective that can allow you to interrupt and redesign the thought process you bring to the trading moment. There is always some embedded emotional "stuff" that is linked to the pattern that has be re-engineered.

 

I appreciate your candor here.

 

Good luck

Rande Howell

 

Ya, it's most definitely emotionally related. There is no doubt about that one. My relationship with money is not a loosely-based or high-risk taker one since I never grew up with a lot of it ...... I know you've talked about that kind of thing in previous posts of yours.

[Rande Howell 10]

Ya, it's most definitely emotionally related. There is no doubt about that one. My relationship with money is not a loosely-based or high-risk taker one since I never grew up with a lot of it ...... I know you've talked about that kind of thing in previous posts of yours.

 

For better or worse, the act of trading provokes breakdowns in the process we use to engage uncertainty. On the better side, these mistakes can point the way for the trader to re-engineer the mind he brings to trading performance, both from a method perspective and from belief perspective. The resistance to embrace the learning potential in the trader's mistakes and losses lies at the heart of the "trading not to lose" mindset that so many trader act from. My hope is that this kind of learning becomes possible for you.

 

Rande Howell

[zdo 20]

For better or worse, the act of trading provokes breakdowns in the process we use to engage uncertainty...

 

Rande, (or anyone else) can you cite research of what happens neurologically / in the brains, etc? Particularly, about the number of ‘uncertainties’ encountered before breakdowns go to high probability … Enigmatics the OP, for example “had been on a nice 3.5 week run” ..., etc. etc.

 

Just trying to get a handle on a certain perspective with what happens ‘universally’ with traders … and beyond my sample of one / subjective experiences with this issue. Please don’t interpret these questions to be disputing to the veracity of what you’re saying... or how you work with it... or... etc etc

 

Many thanks.

[Rande Howell 10]

Rande, (or anyone else) can you cite research of what happens neurologically / in the brains, etc? Particularly, about the number of ‘uncertainties’ encountered before breakdowns go to high probability … Enigmatics the OP, for example “had been on a nice 3.5 week run” ..., etc. etc.

 

Just trying to get a handle on a certain perspective with what happens ‘universally’ with traders … and beyond my sample of one / subjective experiences with this issue. Please don’t interpret these questions to be disputing to the veracity of what you’re saying... or how you work with it... or... etc etc

 

Many thanks.

 

Dynamic Patterns: The Self-Organization of Brain and Behavior - J. A. Scott Kelso - Google Books

 

Automatic activation and strategic avoidanc... [J Abnorm Psychol. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI

[Eddie Z 10]

1. They free lance, taking trades that aren't quite right for their system

2. When the trade goes pear shaped, they fail to act quickly to stop the bleeding

3. When they eventually do stop the trade, the result affects them so much that they spend too much time thinking about that mistake, and they fail to see the next quality setup, or they see it too late

4. They may continue to be distracted by previous losses and bet too heavily on the next trade, causing a circular process that is difficult to difuse

5. They fail to see this circular process and continue to trade, when in fact they should stop and figure it out...

 

Very well said. If something keeps happening over and over, it is worth understanding where it comes from and in order to do that, analysis is definetely needed.

As we all know, trading can become so emotional that a lot of times old behaviors and beliefs need to changed and that takes work and repetition!

[Enigmatics 10]

This is an example of an AAPL options(weekly) trade I punked out on too early. I was eyeballing that 519.10 low of the day as it made it's way down to it for the 3rd time and judging by other higher time frames (15min/60min) I felt as if the wedge broke and downside was coming to the S2 pivot at 515.51. That also happened to be the low of January 7th.

 

The breach of that 519.10 level happens. I enter the trade and as usual the flush happens, but the merits of it gets tested. My experience is this happens a lot when you attempt to short new lows as that flush allows guys who were short much earlier than you to cover into it for profit. I force myself to sit thru it as the next 2 two minute candles poke above the 519.10 level. It begins to reject, suddenly I get a move down to 518 and I'm thinking I'm going to get my full target. Not quite yet though. The red bar at 13:50 puts in a long lower leg. The next bar opens above the close of that previous one and suddenly my orientation turns sour. I'm not good at dealing with grinding like that so my first inclination is to bail as I don't want to risk losing any of the profit I had made in the earlier portio of the day's session. I know that any kind of reversion could result in a 1-2 pt upside, which would mean a potential 10-20% loss with the way the deltas were on the options at that point.

 

Sure enough, right smack after I sell, it breaks down. That lower 515 area gets hit, The puts I had bought at 2.98 went to 4.00. Another trade I couldn't force myself to sit thru for fear of losing the day's earlier profits. Slightly irritating suffocating my own trades like that.

 

[Enigmatics 10]

Monday thru Wednesday were great. Today was craptastic (wiped out previous 3 days' gain). Exceeded my allowed trade total too. I always have my worst days > 3 trades.

 

I need to committ to just sticking to the 10-15% pops I get near the day's early part of the session. That's what I do best. I can't handle anymore of this forward-back-forward-back etc etc. I just need to focus on building my confidence and the only way to do that is to stick to my bread and butter.

 

It's scary how this self-control issue has arisen again. I really felt I was past that. Apparently not.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Enigmatics

[Enigmatics 10]

The other thing I need to consider is that I trade an instrument that forces me to juggle time decay issues further compounding my ability to mentally handle trades involving dips and grinding. So the potential for downside has a second dimension that inheritently skews the risk/reward on every single trade.

 

I definitely just need to focus on my 10-15% moves for now an re-evaluate later on. Maybe when I'm fully committed to not having relapses with these mistakes I can look to expand my trading.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Enigmatics

[zdo 20]

...It's scary how this self-control issue has arisen again. I really felt I was past that. Apparently not.

 

...Maybe when I'm fully committed to not having relapses with these mistakes I can look to expand my trading.

 

 

 

Preface:

The ‘available’ feedback and signs of impending degradation in performance in physical challenges

vs

the not so available, subtle, (micro) signs of impending degradation in trader performance makes associations between the two performance endeavors always tenuous.

Ie This difference btwn the two is often extreme. Like -

nowhere are certain performance factors made more self-evident than in physical competition

and

nowhere are certain internal performance factors made less self-evident than in trading competition

 

Yet while they always require explicit clarifying distinctions, important ‘transfers’ can be made between development in physical and trading performance .

Some possible transfers from the physical competition world go like

“…before you can resist failure, you must first experience failure and learn how to recover from it… “

… but, alas, such ‘transfers’ and awareness of these trading performance factors requires much deeper and harder work than the typical ‘you have to learn to love your losses’, 'discipline', etc trading and trading forum bullshit.

 

Anyways …

I recently piled up some ‘rookie’ mistakes in CHF trading – a mkt that I’m historically consistently good at getting in synch with (even sometimes a ‘whiz’). .. and, yep, part of it was indeed falling again for a permutation of ‘past it’… further ‘story’ so typical it’s not worthy of more words… oversized loss now taken at least. Point is -

 

We’re NEVER “past it”! … that would be like Payton Manning assuming he would never have another ‘imprecise’ series of downs …or an off day … or a cluster of shitty, sub par games…

 

(pre-euphoric conditions, not euphoric issues, being discussed here, btw... )

Actually, having the ‘past it’ assumptions go 'unconsciously competent' is one of the few signs some traders have that he’s never ‘past it’…

but, unfortunately, it is a 'micro' sign… so usually the sign is not picked up on / utilized until after sympathetically aroused ‘primal structures’ are already triggered…

and unless one knows how to make rapid, conscious recoveries, once these 'structures' are triggered, one can be mired in sub standard / "rebuilding... confidence" performance for quite some time…

[Enigmatics 10]

Anyways …

I recently piled up some ‘rookie’ mistakes in CHF trading – a mkt that I’m historically consistently good at getting in synch with (even sometimes a ‘whiz’). .. and, yep, part of it was indeed falling again for a permutation of ‘past it’… further ‘story’ so typical it’s not worthy of more words… oversized loss now taken at least. Point is -

 

We’re NEVER “past it”! … that would be like Payton Manning assuming he would never have another ‘imprecise’ series of downs …or an off day … or a cluster of shitty, sub par games…

 

I'm not mad about taking a loss. It's part of the process. This is a marathon not a sprint and I haven't fooled myself into thinking every trade is going to be a winner.

 

The issue comes down to "when" I'm more likely to conduct a successful trade and of course the money management. After my first trade today I lost about 65% of my winnings from Monday to Wednesday. That first loss violated my ideal loss threshold for a day. I should have been out of the market. To compound matters I then allowed my losses to exceed the total of the previous 3 days profits. That is something I absolutely must get past to survive much longer term in these markets. Cumulative winners must outsize cumulative losers, no if ands or buts about it.

 

After taking those losses the vindicative trader showed up. I knocked out a handful of losers during the low volume grind along the bottom today. It was that moment when you become a ping pong ball amidst the late day market operators/participants in a narrow range and they chop you up. Ohhh it looks like sellers are done, we're finally getting the move back to VWAP! Nope. Back down again, rinse and repeat. Ironically the reversion I was looking for finally took place at about 2:40est. I go to grab calls. I bought puts instead. Recognized it fast enough to prevent major damage, but it was that kind of day.

[zdo 20]

I'm not mad about taking a loss. ...

How is “mad” connected with (or read into) my post?

[Enigmatics 10]

How is “mad” connected with (or read into) my post?

 

You didn't use the word mad.

 

But you were insinuating that losing is a part of the process right so we're never past it right?

[zdo 20]

You didn't use the word mad.

 

But you were insinuating that losing is a part of the process right so we're never past it right?

 

Enigmatics, I wasn’t insinuating

I was exploring and discussing the following...

It's scary how this self-control issue has arisen again. I really felt I was past that. Apparently not.

 

…

 

Anyways, no real surprise you didn’t experience “mad”.

In trading, the detectable signals when eustress has been passed by for too many of us are subtle and sparse… until it is too late… performance degraded until recovery

... when sympathetic structures have been compromised, ‘stock’ thinking like “That is something I absolutely must get past to survive much longer term”( just a random example, btw) and doing ‘resolutions’ such as “I definitely just need to focus on my 10-15% moves for now an re-evaluate later on” can actually retard the pace of recovery…

 

... hoping you're back in form by Monday AM

 

… let me know if you want me to just bug out… :missy:

[Enigmatics 10]

Enigmatics, I wasn’t insinuating

I was exploring and discussing the following...

 

 

…

 

Anyways, no real surprise you didn’t experience “mad”.

In trading, the detectable signals when eustress has been passed by for too many of us are subtle and sparse… until it is too late… performance degraded until recovery

... when sympathetic structures have been compromised, ‘stock’ thinking like “That is something I absolutely must get past to survive much longer term”( just a random example, btw) and doing ‘resolutions’ such as “I definitely just need to focus on my 10-15% moves for now an re-evaluate later on” can actually retard the pace of recovery…

 

... hoping you're back in form by Monday AM

 

… let me know if you want me to just bug out… :missy:

 

Thanks!

 

I made my 20% in options this morning and exited the market. Was done in basically 35mins.