To Arm or to Disarm.

[Tams 20]

[TheDude 10]

um.. because gun bans won't stop him from getting a gun..something you can't seem to get into your peckerhead brain.

absolutely

 

um..me thinks you don't know sh$t about the stats..the only reason Europe exist is because of american guns:haha: :haha: :rofl:

 

:crap::crap::crap:

 

Well they do say that when one resorts to name calling it's a sign they have lost the argument as they have no logical comeback.

 

As for the other mistake in your post, you really do need to understand that the US were kinda late - real late in the European conflict, and it was really the Battle of Britain that turned the tide for Europe - which America had NOTHING to do with (as I believe they were still contemplating joining the Nazis at the time).

 

Remember - America hasn't won a single war. EVER. Except it's own civil war which was won through terrorism.

 

 

Either way, this seems a pointless argument.

 

If someone has been raised in a culture where aggression and violence are the norm, where 'an eye for an eye' is seen as justice, who grew up in a state that still practices the death sentence (Do a search on the other countries that practice capital punishment - you will see they are ALL backward places), then I very much doubt they will listen to the voice of reason and peace.

 

Just remember: The Dude is a lover, not a fighter.

[MightyMouse 12]

:applaud: :applaud: :dito :haha:

 

People who overuse emoticons should also not be allowed to get married.

 

You guys have convinced me to change sides.

 

I too agree that church and state should be separate and I am for freedom of religion as long as everyone is christian.

 

I too feel that we should be allowed to pray in school and that creationism should be taught in science even though it is theology and not a science. My favorite radio talk show host told me it is the right thing.

 

I too will fail to see the similarities between my beliefs and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's beliefs

 

I too am for entitlement reform as long as they don't take anything away that I am getting because I am American and pay taxes and I have earned the right to deserve them.

 

I too am for small government as long as we continue to support a large military, as long as we continue to fight a losing war on drugs and as long as we patrol our borders

 

I too believe that the president should bring his birth certificate to every event so that everyone can see where he was born because he is a communist socialist facist nazi and I don't trust him

 

I too believe that the people have rights and freedoms as long as they are not gay and as long as we ban abortion

 

I too will use statistics combined with inflammatory remarks without knowing what I am talking about.

[SIUYA 11]

MM you forgot to put everything IN LARGE LETTERS

with MANY COLOURS

and a picture.

[SunTrader 10]

Me like pictures .:o

[TheDude 10]

Me like pictures .:o

 

Need we say more?......

 

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2013 by TheDude

[TheDude 10]

 

Edited January 18, 2013 by TheDude

[sdoma 10]

I too will use statistics combined with inflammatory remarks without knowing what I am talking about.

 

Because all of the other comments in your post aren't inflammatory? At least the other guys will tickle my pickle with some stats while they're at it, you're just being lazy.

 

Let's face it, people overreact to school shootings because they have an entirely illusory sense of 100% total security, and panic when it is shattered. You might as well live in fear of your kid dying via lightning strike, because it is equally as likely, but you'll happily sell all of us down the river so you can preserve your naivete. And don't give me that "for the children" crap, because kids get killed every day by the boatload, are sold into sex slavery and the like, and very few middle class people are even aware, let alone care. This hits home because it could happen to them.

 

As with lightning strikes, the probabilities can be lowered from incredibly unlikely to nearly impossible if you take simple precautions, which Sandy Hook Elementary did NOT, despite spending a bunch of money on a security overhaul the year before. For example, how about actually having doors that can resist entry by an armed person? Many of the admittedly contradictory accounts of the shooting have Lanza simply blowing out the glass doors and walking in. That's right, they had a system where they had to buzz you in, but the doors were made of glass. While we're at it, how about *gasp* locks on the classroom doors? You know, so teachers don't have to barricade them with their bodies, or shove a filing cabinet up against them.

 

In fact, I can't believe nobody has called out the people who thought it was a good idea to teach the kids mass shooter drills but not actually beef up security for the school. In fact, why do you think they call classroom locks Columbine locks? Specifically because they help prevent or contain these situations. Don't tell me this wealthy Connecticut school district couldn't afford $200 per classroom to install them.

 

Also, whether or not it's actually necessary, I think it's funny that President Obama called the idea of armed security in schools absurd when Sidwell, the tony private school his kids attend, has a large armed security staff, not counting the Secret Service. In fact, here's a shocker - most of these prep schools, especially in urban areas, have armed security. But you just nod like a good little doggie when Chad and Todd tell you that it's simply absurd for your children to have an armed guard in school. Urban public schools have police officers assigned to them as well. So it looks like the middle class schools are the exposed underbelly, and guess where all the school shootings occur?

 

In other words, you can think critically about this without being an Alex Jones type. Stop accepting the narrative that's being rammed down your throat and think for yourself.

[TheDude 10]

Because all of the other comments in your post aren't inflammatory? At least the other guys will tickle my pickle with some stats while they're at it, you're just being lazy.

 

Let's face it, people overreact to school shootings because they have an entirely illusory sense of 100% total security, and blah blah blah.....

 

If you'd like facts, please consider this:

 

How many cases have there been in the last 10 years where guns are freely available, of people walking into schools, cinemas and the like and murdering swarms of people in the USA?

 

Now compare that figure, by capita, to Europe where guns are not so readily available.

 

Do you see a pattern?

 

Do you really think beefing up security in schools is the answer? I think it's moronic. Just follow Europes lead and ban guns. It really is that simple. Will it totally eradicate gun crime? No of course not, but it will make USA a safer place for everyone.

 

People talk of their right to bear arms, but what of the rights of innocent bystanders who get shot?

 

If your family were killed by a mad man, would you still think the gun laws were a good thing?

[TheDude 10]

It's a very sad society that needs a weapon to feel free. In fact, it just displays their inferiority, insecurity, and base stupidity.

 

[Cory2679 11]

...it will make USA a safer place for everyone.

 

Is this necessarily true?

 

I may be wrong, and I may be blasted on this thread as being a complete idiot/lunatic, but it's my understanding that although the U.S. has a higher rate of homicide, the problem of assaults in countries like the U.K., Australia, and Sweden is much worse.

 

One might think that having a few more murders per 100,000 persons each year is still much worse than having many hundreds more assaults. Perhaps it is. (One could also argue that differences in proportion are all we should care about.) But there should be no doubt that the term “assault” often conceals some extraordinary instances of physical and psychological suffering.

 

Murder is worse than assault—and many assaults are quite insignificant. However, many crimes categorized as “assault” leave their victims physically and psychologically damaged for life. Frankly, I don’t know what it means, in terms of aggregate human suffering, to trade 2 murders per 100,000 people for 400 assaults.

 

(Some of this is copied or paraphrased from Sam Harris's writings I posted earlier.)

[zdo 20]

To the OP, Ingot,

Most of the people who have posted in this thread can only see pathocracies in hindsight.

Are you one of them ?

[MightyMouse 12]

Because all of the other comments in your post aren't inflammatory? At least the other guys will tickle my pickle with some stats while they're at it, you're just being lazy.

 

Let's face it, people overreact to school shootings because they have an entirely illusory sense of 100% total security, and panic when it is shattered. You might as well live in fear of your kid dying via lightning strike, because it is equally as likely, but you'll happily sell all of us down the river so you can preserve your naivete. And don't give me that "for the children" crap, because kids get killed every day by the boatload, are sold into sex slavery and the like, and very few middle class people are even aware, let alone care. This hits home because it could happen to them.

 

As with lightning strikes, the probabilities can be lowered from incredibly unlikely to nearly impossible if you take simple precautions, which Sandy Hook Elementary did NOT, despite spending a bunch of money on a security overhaul the year before. For example, how about actually having doors that can resist entry by an armed person? Many of the admittedly contradictory accounts of the shooting have Lanza simply blowing out the glass doors and walking in. That's right, they had a system where they had to buzz you in, but the doors were made of glass. While we're at it, how about *gasp* locks on the classroom doors? You know, so teachers don't have to barricade them with their bodies, or shove a filing cabinet up against them.

 

In fact, I can't believe nobody has called out the people who thought it was a good idea to teach the kids mass shooter drills but not actually beef up security for the school. In fact, why do you think they call classroom locks Columbine locks? Specifically because they help prevent or contain these situations. Don't tell me this wealthy Connecticut school district couldn't afford $200 per classroom to install them.

 

Also, whether or not it's actually necessary, I think it's funny that President Obama called the idea of armed security in schools absurd when Sidwell, the tony private school his kids attend, has a large armed security staff, not counting the Secret Service. In fact, here's a shocker - most of these prep schools, especially in urban areas, have armed security. But you just nod like a good little doggie when Chad and Todd tell you that it's simply absurd for your children to have an armed guard in school. Urban public schools have police officers assigned to them as well. So it looks like the middle class schools are the exposed underbelly, and guess where all the school shootings occur?

 

In other words, you can think critically about this without being an Alex Jones type. Stop accepting the narrative that's being rammed down your throat and think for yourself.

 

Better security such as better doors is a no brainer. I completely agree with you. Guns in schools? for what? to protect children from lunatics who have rights to have guns? Wouldn't it make more sense to take the guns away from lunatics so that we don't need guns in schools? Doesn't that make more sense than arming everyone to protect people from people who have rights to have guns? Is that naive?

 

Urban schools have armed guards because children in those schools have guns. There are serious drug trade issues in urban schools. The guns are not there to protect the kids from lunatic suicidal intruders who are carrying legally purchased weapons.

 

Arming school faculty with weapons creates another statistic: accidental school shootings, faculty who go nuts, and who knows what other stat. All so that a lunatic can remain free to have a gun?

 

I do not know the names of the people you mention, other than Obama, and therefore do not know what their opinions are and am not having anything rammed down my throat by anyone. I do notice lots of others who seem to be NRA soldiers and advocates for the gun industry, whose sole purpose is to maintain a society where their products can be sold.

 

I can show you all the stats you want about less guns leading to less gun homicide and an overall lower homicide rate, when you hold everything constant. The variable is drugs and the drug trade. There is no paradox to the numbers. More guns = more death across the board.

[SIUYA 11]

To the OP, Ingot,

Most of the people who have posted in this thread can only see pathocracies in hindsight.

Are you one of them ?

 

and the others only see conspiracies in every thing.

Are you one of them?

 

Have a good weekend everyone, lock the doors, check the baked beans and ammo clips and prepare the stats for next weeks assaults by the enemy within us all.

 

..............

The powers that be never should have allowed the internet to develop but thankgod it did - where would porn be without it. (and vice versa)

[zdo 20]

Wouldn't it make more sense to take the guns away from lunatics so that we don't need guns in schools? Doesn't that make more sense than arming everyone to protect people from people who have rights to have guns? Is that naive?

 

Urban schools have armed guards because children in those schools have guns. There are serious drug trade issues in urban schools. The guns are not there to protect the kids from lunatic suicidal intruders who are carrying legally purchased weapons.

 

Arming school faculty with weapons creates another statistic: accidental school shootings, faculty who go nuts, and who knows what other stat. All so that a lunatic can remain free to have a gun?

 

...

 

Just for the readers who might be tempted to start lumping all the To Arm advocates as what MM has labeled “NRA soldiers and advocates for the gun industry”, let me be an example.

Re “NRA soldiers” -, I strongly disagree with the NRA about armed guards in every school.

Re “advocates for the gun industry” - I strongly encourage self printing of weapons… which would pretty much not swell the coffers of the ‘evil’ gun makers …

 

Onward…

All so that a lunatic can remain free to have a gun?

More “variables” misused and mixed up… more ‘stat based reasoning’… The reality that still hasn’t sunk in with you yet MM. If you passed and enforced all the measures and solutions you have proposed, such as mass confiscations, etc. (plus some you haven’t dreamed up yet) - the lunatic will still remain free to ‘have’ a gun. Meanwhile, …

 

Sandy Hook was not a "stat". It was the act of (a single?) seriously disturbed human(s).

With comments like "faculty who go nuts, and who knows what other stat" you reveal a deep distrust of us humans and probably of yourself. The paradox is that you are simultaneously ready to trust the cleverest psychopaths to fix it for us...

[sdoma 10]

Better security such as better doors is a no brainer. I completely agree with you. Guns in schools? for what? to protect children from lunatics who have rights to have guns?

 

Generally lunatics do not have the right to purchase a gun. Also, I want to know, at what point do we turn our gaze on the administrators and (possibly) security consultants that botched the security here? The money was there, the competence was not.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to take the guns away from lunatics so that we don't need guns in schools? Doesn't that make more sense than arming everyone to protect people from people who have rights to have guns? Is that naive?

 

It is naive to think that most guns used to commit crimes are legally obtained. The stats show that they seldom are. In Lanza's case, the guns he had were illegally obtained since he murdered his mother and stole them. The guy who shot the first responders in NYC used a straw purchaser. What is most interesting to me is that you get it when it comes to the War on Drugs - prohibition creates a black market and an increase in crime - and yet you think there would be no black market for guns. In fact, with 3D printers and custom metal fabrication getting easier and easier, the day of the printed gun is not that far away. What then?

 

Urban schools have armed guards because children in those schools have guns. There are serious drug trade issues in urban schools. The guns are not there to protect the kids from lunatic suicidal intruders who are carrying legally purchased weapons.

 

Your point, while true, is irrelevant. I wasn't saying that was their intended purpose there, I was noting the fact that these schools aren't generally targeted by lunatics. Criminals of all types, insane or not, go for the softest target they can find. This has been borne out in criminology studies.

 

Arming school faculty with weapons creates another statistic: accidental school shootings

 

I never said faculty should be armed, but if they are, I don't see how a student gets shot as long as the teacher is properly trained and the gun is holstered properly with the safety on. Many guns also have mechanisms that prevent them from discharging if dropped.

 

faculty who go nuts

 

At which point, couldn't they just bring a gun in from home? Or do you think they will be stopped by the "no guns" sign?

 

I do not know the names of the people you mention, other than Obama, and therefore do not know what their opinions are and am not having anything rammed down my throat by anyone.

 

Chad and Todd are stereotypical rich guys' names. You'll find that rich socialist types generally have guns. Look at Dianne Feinstein, she has one of the only concealed carry licenses in California. Look at what they DO, not what they SAY. They SAY no guns, and own them themselves. They also take their children's security very seriously.

 

I can show you all the stats you want about less guns leading to less gun homicide and an overall lower homicide rate, when you hold everything constant. The variable is drugs and the drug trade. There is no paradox to the numbers. More guns = more death across the board.

 

Really? Criminological studies don't seem to agree with you.

 

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

 

Read this study. It's long, but worth it. Harvard criminologists found no correlation between firearm ownership and crime. Now, they didn't find a strong more guns = less crime conclusion either, but to me, it still contradicts your stats that you haven't posted.

Edited January 18, 2013 by sdoma

[zdo 20]

and the others only see conspiracies in every thing.

Are you one of them?

 

 

Thanks Ingot.

 

 

SIUYA

Most of the To Disarm crowd herein has already posted sufficient material to show they do trust pathocracies. Sincerely wasn't intending to slight anyone. Please forgive me and allow me to ask you too.

Are you one of them?

[zdo 20]

Well they do say that when one resorts to name calling it's a sign they have lost the argument as they have no logical comeback.

 

… it just displays their inferiority, insecurity, and base stupidity.

 

Now who has “lost the argument”? :razz:

[TheDude 10]

Now who has “lost the argument”? :razz:

 

'They' have.

 

I wasnt referring to an individual, but an observation of a whole culture.

[SIUYA 11]

Thanks Ingot.

 

 

SIUYA

Most of the To Disarm crowd herein has already posted sufficient material to show they do trust pathocracies. Sincerely wasn't intending to slight anyone. Please forgive me and allow me to ask you too.

Are you one of them?

 

yes i was butting in - Is'nt that what PMs are for, and none of us mean to offend anyone do we?? Sorry.

 

I am not only one of them but also one of us and one of the many and the few.

 

Came across this quote once before and you have to think it can apply to anyone/them/us or the others we dare not mention.....

 

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.

 

I guess we can choose which absurdities to believe in.

 

............

I did think your suggestion for the new 3D printing of weapons was an interesting idea.

As a technology that is f..n. amazing and potentially economy changing. I want to buy the ink producers - much the same as those supplying the shovels.

[SunTrader 10]

Because all of the other comments in your post aren't inflammatory? At least the other guys will tickle my pickle with some stats while they're at it, you're just being lazy...........

.

Right critical thinking.

 

Like don't restrict guns, especially to a parent that has a looney-toon at home.

 

Put locks on classroom doors. Artillery-proof all exterior doors (how about that, just in case they have a M1A1 Abrams Tank)?

 

Middle schools where all the school shootings occur ......and shopping malls, and movie theatres and parking lots and fast food restaurents and college campuses.

 

Well beside all of them yeah middle schools. :doh:

 

Alex freakin' Jones. Now there a real brilliant guy. :rofl:

 

Armed guards, you mean like they had in Columbine? That helped.

 

But what if every school had armed guards and there was still attacks taking place. I'm sure Barney Fife rent-a-cop would be a crack-shot. That would be some scene, rent-a-cop against lunatics with kids and teachers in the middle.

 

Guns and children don't mix well, A real adult understands this basic fact.

Edited January 19, 2013 by SunTrader

[SunTrader 10]

Now who has “lost the argument”? :razz:

 

That ship left the dock long ago.

[smmatrix 11]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyS3CEIbpJo&feature=youtu.be

Gun Control - Watch What Happens When Guns Are Banned.

 

Gun Control - Watch What Happens When Guns Are Banned.

The results of Australia's Gun Ban: Armed Robberies UP 69% Assaults With Guns UP 28% Gun Murders UP 19% Home Invasions UP 21%

Edited January 19, 2013 by smmatrix

[Patuca 13]

Pa. kindergartner suspended for bubble gun remark - Yahoo! News

 

so what do you think?

[smmatrix 11]