To Arm or to Disarm.

[Ingot54 13]

I don't expect to be arguing the pro's and con's of the position

NRA or the Gun Lobby here, but today there was an interview

of Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX).

 

He said that an armed teacher or principal could have taken

the killer’s “head off before he can kill those precious kids."

 

GOHMERT:

 

Having been a judge and reviewed photographs of these horrific scenes

and knowing that children have these defensive wounds, gun shots through

their arms and hands as they try to protect themselves, and, hearing the

heroic stories of the principal, lunging, trying to protect, Chris, I wish to

God she had had an M-4 in her office, locked up so when she heard

gunfire, she pulls it out and she didn’t have to lunge heroically with

nothing in her hands and takes him out and takes his head off before

he can kill those precious kids.

 

This is so ridiculous, I couldn't think of anywhere to post it!

 

It really belongs on "Jackass ... Part 27"

 

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/12/16/1342281/gop-rep-suggests-teachers-should-be-armed-with-assault-rifles/?mobile=nc

 

There is so much wrong with that turkey's reasoning, that I won't even begin to go there.

 

But here is the fantasy he is alluding to.

 

It goes like this:

 

"Doris ... do we have some one with a birthday today ... is that balloons popping?"

"Don't think so, Beryl. I'll go check."

 

Pop! Pop! Pop!

 

"Now where the hell is Doris."

 

Popopop! Pop! Pop! (sound of screams ... yelling...)

 

"OMG! Those are not balloons popping."

 

"Time to swing into action. Now where is the key to the gun cupboard. It must be taped underneath

the top drawer of my desk. Hmmm. Nope. It is taped inside the filing cabinet."

 

Beryl begins to walk towards the filing cabinet ... secures the key just as the door bursts open.

 

Pop! Pop! Popopop!

 

Beryl's last thoughts ... "I knew I should have attended the monthly AK47/Glock training."

 

Gunman takes keys from Beryl's lifeless and bloodied hand, opens gun cupboard, and re-arms himself

with something ... aaahhh ..."appropriate" ... for his mission!

 

This post is not meant to offend anyone in light of the tragedy that has happened.

 

It is designed to show the absurdity of the mentality that thinks school marms should be trained and

ready to use an assault rifle against a maniac charged with adrenalin and focused to destroy.

 

And it shows that there is another offense than should be taken - the idea that more guns can

somehow prevent another of these situations. That people who are ordinary citizens, school teachers,

should somehow be capable of taking another life when faced with a decision to pull a trigger.

 

It is time for the gun lobby to relinquish their position on assault weapons.

 

It is time for the registration and criminal background checks on anyone who feels they have the

right and the need to carry a weapon at all.

 

The very fact that people feel they need to carry, belies some sort of mental imbalance in the first

place, and should be considered as a factor in any decision to license them.

 

We are a hair's breadth from 2013 ... and we are still behaving like the Wild West is next door to Manhatton!

 

That is offensive to anyone who is working hard to build a civilisation, and a caring society.

 

I don't buy the paranoia that the government is conspiring to disarm its citizens.

 

If you believe something strongly enough, be prepared to die for it - don't be prepared to kill for it.

 

(Please do not post "like" underneath these posts.)

[johnw 10]

gm to you 54,

 

Here is an interesting piece ....

As for Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) .. thank God he doesn't have a proper job .... just when you think that Politicians cannot be any more stupid, along comes one who manages to lower the bar even further.

 

Obama has made it clear that the public and especially children will face an increasing risk as the pressure on US society continues to ramp up.

2013 is going to be a very interesting year in a thoroughly dismal way as we continue to de-lever debt and replace jobs with robots.

Just watch the number of jobs lost on Wall Street alone as the bots move in.

 

 

By Petula Dvorak

 

We live in a society that makes it very, very easy to kill kids.

 

Though we want to pretend that isn’t true.

 

Because the kids gunned down in Sandy Hook Elementary School Friday were swaddled in federally-regulated, fire-retardant blankets, rode in elaborate car seats plastered with safety stickers, learned to ride bikes with elbow pads, knee guards and safety helmets and were never left alone with a plastic bag. Some of them may never, ever have had a Twinkie.

 

Cribs, bouncy seats, cough medicine, scooters, sugary snacks — we have no problem regulating the everliving life out of those.

 

But how do we keep them safe in their sweet, little elementary school when we live in a culture that has convinced itself to accept guns?

 

Parents across the nation were undone by this tragedy. The president had to stop and wait, wait until his urge to sob had passed when he spoke of the “beautiful little kids” killed in Newtown, Connecticut Friday morning.

 

All day long, my Facebook feed had parents changing their profile pictures to their little ones. One friend left work early to surprise her kids. Another said she just has “to pause and bow down in prayer…” for those kids.

 

What has happened to our culture that we even have this category — school shootings — by which to measure a horror that should otherwise be inconceivable, immeasurable and unfathomable?

 

Stop and think for a moment what this was. This is worse than “Hunger Games”-level bloodspill. This is the ham-handed massacre that happens in a post-apocalyptic novel, and book clubs discuss whether the author took it too far.

 

Or it’s something that happened in the past, in black-and-white, to urchins in pea coats and knee socks and we can’t even wrap our heads around what it was like back then.

 

But no, this is in full color, 2012. These are kids who just wrote Christmas letters to Santa asking for Mario Wii or American Girl dolls, they are kids who maybe got a remote control car for Hanukkah and grandma wondered if it wasn’t too much.

 

We worry about the hormones in their milk, the violence in Spongebob Squarepants and yet, this same country tolerates the existence of a military-style assault weapon built for no purpose other than killing lots of people on a battlefield — fast.

 

People will continue to say it’s written into our Constitution, and an American right, guns. It’s a sticker on a truck, a political statement swathed in red white and blue, a stand on tradition, individualism and a huge lobby soaked in cash and merciless about winning, winning, winning.

 

“This latest terrible tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School is no fluke,” said Marian Wright Edelman, president of the Children’s Defense Fund. “It is a result of the senseless, immoral neglect of all of us as a nation to fail to protect children instead of guns and to speak out against the pervasive culture of violence. It is up to us to stop these preventable tragedies.”

 

President Barack Obama also spoke to this disease in our nation, where mass shootings are now routine.

 

“As a country, we have been through this too many times. Whether it is an elementary school in Newtown, or a shopping mall in Oregon, or a temple in Wisconsin, or a movie theater in Aurora, or a street corner in Chicago, these neighborhoods are our neighborhoods and these children are our children,” he said. “And we’re going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this, regardless of the politics.

 

But America already knows how this is going to go. We’re getting scary good at this. There will be school counselors and vigils and maybe some protests.

 

We will all hug our kids extra hard. I don’t know if I’m going to be able to let my kindergartner and third-grader go to their sleepover this weekend, I won’t be able to let them go.

 

There will be great work done by reporters in the next few weeks uncovering how the shooter was able to get his hands on the weapons. We’ll probably learn that he was mentally ill, that there were holes in the safety net and everyone around him saw the signs, but our treatment of mental health issues is lacking, our care incomplete and our system broken.

 

Schools will re-examine safety procedures. It’s going to be even harder for the babysitter to come pick up a child or for mom to drop off a forgotten lunch because of new ID checks put in place and security guards hired by the school district. And somehow, parents are going to agree to this madness because, what else can you do?

 

The drills for surviving during a school shooting will now begin in kindergarten. Preschool board meetings will discuss whether this should be looked into. Board members will nod sagely. What else can you do?

 

Sandy Hook will become a database entry, next to Columbine and Stockton and Virginia Tech.

 

What isn’t going to happen? Nothing will change when it comes to guns in America.

 

That is something rotten and infected in our culture. And it breaks my heart, at least 26 different ways today.

 

Read more here: Connecticut shooting won’t change views on guns | Inside Opinion - The News Tribune

[Cory2679 11]

I can't think of anything that would have saved more lives Friday than an armed teacher or principal (well trained and competant). The M-4 comment was silly...a 9mm would have worked fine.

 

As for all the attention his assault rifle is getting...he didn't need it. He could have easily carried out his assault with a 9mm. He could have even done it fairly easily with a magazine capacity of just 10 rounds. It takes less than a few seconds to reload.

 

Banning AR's would do absolutely nothing to prevent such events. Keep in mind that we are talking about semi-automatics in these cases. I'm not sure why they're getting so much attention. Probably because they look scary. Do people mistake these guns for automatics? I think people want to do something like ban AR's just to be able to feel like they've "done something."

 

However, I am open minded and am aware that I don't know all there is to know on the subject. These are just some of my current ways of thinking.

 

EDIT: And strictly speaking, we're not even talking about a bonafide assault rifle, here. An actual assault rifle must be capable of some sort of automatic fire. True AR's are already heavily regulated and are not the issue here.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Cory2679

[zdo 20]

Guest Post: Gun Control? No, Drone Control. | ZeroHedge

 

gohmert is dummer than gomer... let's associate his ramblings with everyone who supports the 2nd amendment in any way approaching literally ...

 

while we're at it... let's associate all preppers with the goobers and nutcases on National Geographic prepper show

 

that's one way to roll... did you get sucked in ?

[zdo 20]

Lanza, Bloomberg, Obama, guns, psychiatric meds, and mass hypnosis in Newtown, Connecticut - BlackListedNews.com

 

( How to Spot a Hypocrite in the Gun Debate and Other Reflections on Newtown | A Lightning War for Liberty

 

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/more-than-2000-children-are-murdered-in-the-united-states-every-single-day

 

http://alt-market.com/articles/1218-the-federal-government-is-guilty-accomplice-in-school-shooting

)

 

Ingot, glad you brought this up yet ?

Edited December 17, 2012 by zdo

[SIUYA 11]

Zdo.....those articles you posted ....

the way i read them....

it seems that the right to bear arms gun crowd seems to think that its ok to allow guns and make them readily accessible to those who have mental illnesses.....because in their own words guns dont kill - people kill, and that its mental illness that is the issue.....

and the only reason the government wants to ban guns is so that they can de-arm their own populace in order to keep telling untruths - that they are already telling and has the general public already believing. Always seems strange when the best country in the word with the best system of government does not even back or trust its own government.

 

Finally - that you are a hypocrite if you back the USA in drone killings but want to disarm your own society.......in order to stop killing.

As for having an armed populace to stop other armed mentally ill people - who then protects us from the armed populace? The government.....or ourselves everytime I 'feel offended'

 

Seems a strange argument to make.....but i dont have any vested interests either way so maybe i am missing the points and throwing fuel on the fire.

Edited December 17, 2012 by SIUYA

[DbPhoenix 42]

but i dont have any vested interests either way so maybe i am missing the points and throwing fuel on the fire.

 

It's easier to understand if you come from, live in, or have otherwise had personal experience with a culture of hatred. In your case, think back to "The Troubles".

 

Db

[zdo 20]

SUIYA,

 

Sensible logic isn’t high on my list here bub. I don’t watch network news, but my wife had it on and I walked by, saw and heard things, and questioned the agendas – did you? These posts are to counter the mass hypnotism that goes on and on …

 

Sensible logic isn’t really high on their list either… even though they are very polished at making it seem that way. ... … just like the “wars” on poverty, drugs, and terrorism… a “war” on mass killings will not stop them, yet it will be costly to individual liberty and pocketbooks/freedom.

 

Here’s how to interpret me correctly ---- beware of false flags, official pronouncements of causations and cures, of sentimentally / emotionally anchored mass hypnosis… in reality the time for ‘mass shootings’ will come and then suddenly it will be gone and no laws or controls will change that … or “stop killings”...

If you see that I am questioning, not necessarily getting all polaritied out on 'gun rights' etc then you may be interpreting me correctly... please add fuel to that fire.

 

it seems that the right to bear arms gun crowd seems to think that its ok to allow guns and make them readily accessible to those who have mental illnesses.....because in their own words guns dont kill - people kill, and that its mental illness that is the issue..... it seems that the right to bear arms gun crowd seems to think that its ok to allow guns and make them readily accessible to those who have mental illnesses.....because in their own words guns dont kill - people kill, and that its mental illness that is the issue.....

More accurately “the right to bear arms gun crowd” correctly realizes that more laws, more control will not stop sickened sickos … this guy (and all his recent predecessors going back circa Columbine, etc) broke multiple ‘gun’ laws before and during their “acting out “ (sensitivity phrasing)… more laws would not have deterred them one bit and in the meantime the rights of innocents are eroded for less than honorable reasons.

Anti- gun logic is not very sound either… it is IMFUCKINGPOSSIBLE to keep arms out of the hands of those bound for “mental illness”. Yet we are getting readied to accept that as a "soulution"

 

Each situation is unique and in my view, “return fire” , (while admittedly, my fellow collectivist lovers, it is not a solution meted out by the system, shit - nwhile it is not a solution at all, statistically,) still not be legally precluded as a situational ‘solution’…

 

The media celebrates mass shootings because they make for great ratings. People tune in to watch the horrifying scenes and share in the grief. This means eyeballs on the screen and that translates into ad revenue for the TV news networks.

 

…

The media glorifies psychopathic killers

What's even more horrifying than the massacre itself is the way the mainstream media now glorifies mass shooters, turning them into cult heroes and even ranking their body counts as a sort of achievement score. The Newtown shooting currently holds the "high score" according to the mainstream media, and they have no problem pushing this kind of junk journalism as long as their teleprompter-reading reporters appear to be convincingly saddened for the cameras.

 

…

 

With school shootings, you see, the killer victimizes the children once, and then the media victimizes them a second time.”

 

"Never waste a good crisis"

Nowhere is the celebration of school shootings more amplified than in Washington D.C. where the federal government desperately wants to disarm the American people. The higher the body count of children in a given mass shooting, the more "moral authority" D.C. politicians will claim to have in destroying the rights of all Americans by demanding they turn in their guns.

 

Right now, there's a massive call among traitors like Bloomberg to gut the Second Amendment and completely disarm perfectly innocent American citizens who have done nothing wrong (and are actually upstanding citizens who PREVENT crime).

 

Remember: Millions of privately-armed Americans are off-duty cops and returning veterans who have been trained by the government to carry weapons and use them to stop crimes. But people like Obama and Bloomberg want to condemn them all as "potential criminals" and strip away their constitutional right to carry a firearm. This is the idiocy of the Washington agenda to ban all guns from private citizens.

 

The more mass shootings occur, the louder the call becomes for "gun control" which actually doesn't work but it's a convenient scapegoat for those who don't know any better.

 

…

School shootings are secretly welcomed by the Obama administration because they create the necessary emotional impact that will result in irrational public support for citizen disarmament schemes. This is why the federal government keeps pushing for school "gun free zones." Such signs posted outside schools advertise those schools as easy targets for psychopathic killers. It's almost like posting a sign that says, "All killers welcomed here!"

 

Big Pharma also welcomes school shootings

The pharmaceutical industry is at least partially responsible for many of these shootings, as it is their own drugs which cause young males to become violent and detached. The vast majority of shooters over the last two decades have all been taking prescription medications such as antidepressant drugs (which are known to cause violent, suicidal behavior).

 

But the real benefit to Big Pharma from the school shootings is that such events traumatize other children who can then be "diagnosed" with fictitious psychiatric disorders which are invented solely for the purpose of selling more prescription medications to children who don't need them.

 

[These] School shootings, you see, benefit the media, the drug companies and the power base of the federal government.

 

...

 

The solution to stopping all school shootings is ridiculously simple: allow principles and school office personnel to carry concealed. This would allow them to save the lives of children by halting psychopathic killers with lethal force.

 

And take down those delusional "gun free zone" signs. Posting a sign does not stop a psychopathic killer. If you want to physically stop such a killer, you need something called return fire.

 

Learn more: Why the government and mainstream media celebrate mass school shootings (and secretly want them to continue)

 

 

 

 

 

...

 

and the only reason the government wants to ban guns is so that they can de-arm their own populace in order to keep telling untruths - that they are already telling and has the general public already believing.

 

"in order to keep telling untruths" is such a minor part of the agendas of dark psychopathic leadership and the minions who are fascinated, attracted, and clusterfkd into supporting it. SUIYA, you are not a creator of collective maya at this point. But you need to question within – Are you a consumer of collective maya?

 

 

Always seems strange when the best country in the word with the best system of government does not even back or trust its own government.

The stupid founders of this stupid country were very suspicious of government and were quite in favor of tearing them down when they don’t work anymore. Btw, readers, if you think the present ‘worldwide’ democracy “best system” is working …ie that we should be trusting government … then, bluntly, I believe you would have also fallen for Stalin, or Hitler, or ________

…and, btw, It doesn't matter if you come from a 'culture' of hatred or a 'culture' of love ... the separations, the illusions, and the potential dark violent reactions - individually and collectively - all ride around right inside each of us - including you DB... even though you are wise, understanding, and (self ) righteous...

 

 

 

 

SUIYA, you are still at liberty to remain neutral … but for how much longer?

 

Some stupid ole dead fake commie once said

"Sometimes nothing happens for a decade. Sometimes a whole decade happens in a week"

[zdo 20]

Do you know how many laws are on the books?

Even murder is illegal.

Really, will more laws solve a dam thang?

 

Stats: some ‘traders’ demand stats to help them avoid emotions and stay 'objective'

so toward those ends, here's some lies, damned lies, and statistics…:rofl:

 

Newtown Shooter Had Asperger Syndrome, And Some US Gun Facts | ZeroHedge

[zdo 20]

Preface: I was raised to be against guns...

 

Raised in a blue state, I had the stereotype that militias were made of crazies … and so the “right to bear arms” as part of a “well-regulated militia” seemed like a nutty anachronism.

 

And I have long been deeply influenced by leading voices for non-violence, such as Gandhi and King. So – Until recently – I was pro gun-control. As such, I understand gun control arguments very well.

 

 

Gun Control: The Big Picture - Washington's Blog

[MightyMouse 12]

I live miles from where the tragic event took place. My children were in lock down on Friday and again today. It is difficult to begin to explain the terror and feeling of loss that surrounds the area.

 

The only law that would have prevented the hell that occurred would be an outright ban on guns. The guns that the attacker possessed were bought legally by his mother who was, up until the time her son shot her 4 times in the face, a law abiding citizen.

 

I know such a law will never occur because there are too many paranoid imbeciles who feel the need to arm themselves. I personally feel that if you feel the need to arm yourself, you should put off getting a gun and get mental help first, because if your decision to purchase a gun is because you are fearful, then you need help with the fear. A gun will only mask the problem.

 

If you want what our forefathers intended with the second amendment, then you should be allowed to bear the arms that they intended. At the time of the writing of the 2nd amendment, there were single shot black powder guns, not bushmaster .223s with 30 round clips. They amendment was drafted at a time when the US was vulnerable of attack by England, again, or France, Indians, etc. None of these threats have existed for years. These guys who hold out the 2nd amendment as gospel are no different from the Muslim fundamentalists who point to 12th century scripture as a way of life. Both are fucking nuts. Simply fucking nuts.

 

I am not sure how you can look at a massacre of 20 children, 16 who were 6 years old and the other 4 who were eight, each shot between 3 and 11 times and say that guns should not be banned. Yes each were shot between 3-11 times. That mom's guns sure protected her. Fucking nuts. Just fucking nuts. The gun was purchased by a law abiding citizen. I guess the mom can't say "thank god I had a gun when I was attacked".

 

For the record I own a hand gun and 2 rifles, I do not and will not carry. In fact they are not in the home that I live in. I no longer hunt and have not gotten around to selling them.

[Ingot54 13]

I no longer hunt and have not gotten around to selling them.

Who would you sell to?

Who would buy them and why?

 

For the record, I sold my .303, a .22 magnum and a 12G shotty back in the 70's.

 

We also have a fascist government today - a mere extension of business, making corporate crime legal. That wasn't nearly the case back when the constitutional amendment was made. You fight these enemies with idea and votes ... not physical weapons. You have meetings and you take back control, which is your right.

 

I am not a US citizen, and visiting the USA is not on my bucket list. I like being free.

 

But this seems to me to be a tenet of the US Constitution:

 

... this nation, under God, shall have a new

birth of freedom -- and that government of

the people, by the people, for the people,

shall not perish from the earth.

 

Seems the gun lobby is cherry picking which part of the Constitution is important!

They insist on the "right to bear arms" ... but do not insist on democracy.

 

Piss weak ... like my fellow Aussies - so piss weak ... that they won't protest even the slightest over some of the open rorts of government! We are a push-over here ... and the Aussie government(s) knows we are.

 

Does this (USA) government represent a threat to its citizens ... yes.

 

To the extent that owning an arsenal of small arms is going to be any sort of defense?

 

No.

 

Can a pocket of citizens of "justified resistance" to any civil military pressure, withstand CF gas, RPG's, and so on?

 

No.

 

You just have to see what the USA does to "insurgents" in other countries to see what they could do at home if a civil war occurred. (The "if" is another topic). The difference is they would do it "legally."

 

I didn't intend for the discussion to gravitate to the right or the need to carry or own a weapon. The OP was more to point out the imbecility of attempting to get your local school marm to face up to a crazed and driven maniac with an automatic assault arsenal strapped to his torso, hell-bent on taking out anything that moves within 50 feet.

 

To even suggest that the brave school principal could have done anything at all is conjecture, knee-jerk, and futile.

 

What is needed in societies of all kinds, is a change of heart.

 

While we still give kids guns as toys ... provide them with Playstation/X-Box army "games" and so on at an early age, we are actually reenforcing the very behaviour that needs to be banished from society if we want to get rid of violence.

 

I have worked in a prison for 3 years ... some time ago ... and some of the worst crimes were committed after the assailant had spent hours playing with some of these "games."

 

This and stuff like it ... sold to youth for nothing other than commercial gain ... is at the heart of our problems.

 

But you can not legislate these changes - they have to be taught from an early age.

[Predictor 11]

In order to determine a way to stop this, the root cause must be determined. While no one knows in this case, the causes in similar cases are:

 

1. Bullying

2. The glorification of revenge within our society.

3. A lack of mental health solutions -- not health care. We have health care but not solutions.

4. A lack or perceived lack of "social safety net", i.e when people go ballistic after losing a job

5. A value for unhealthy competition, i.e non productive competition

6. Relatively easy access to higher powered guns.

 

I'm not convinced that removing guns will solve this because we're seeing similar types of things in China with knife attacks. I don't claim to know a solution but perhaps requiring gun owners to keep their guns under lock and key might be a first step, though unlikely to have prevented this.

 

PS:

I'm not convinced that violence in games is a problem, at least for most people. Agree that an armed principle would be no guarantee of a different outcome.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Predictor

[Ingot54 13]

In order to determine a way to stop this, the root cause must be determined.

While no one knows in this case, the causes in similar cases are:

 

1. Bullying

2. The glorification of revenge within our society.

3. A lack of mental health solutions -- not health care. We have health care but not solutions.

4. A lack or perceived lack of "social safety net", i.e when people go ballistic after losing a job

5. A value for unhealthy competition, i.e non productive competition

6. Relatively easy access to higher powered guns.

 

I'm not convinced that removing guns will solve this because we're seeing similar types of things

in China with knife attacks. I don't claim to know a solution but perhaps requiring gun owners to

keep their guns under lock and key might be a first step, though

unlikely to

have prevented this.

 

PS:

I'm not convinced that violence in games is a problem, at least for most people. Agree that an armed

principle would be no guarantee of a different outcome.

Salient points, Predictor.

 

Perhaps you could review your opinion of

I'm not convinced that violence in games is a problem

 

Kids and Violent Movies: A Scary Trend

 

Worldwide think-tank warns parents: Violent images in movies, TV or computer games CAN act as triggers for aggression | Mail Online

The Influence Of Violent Media On Children & Adolescents | LIVESTRONG.COM

 

In fact there are many sources stating the same thing. And the message has been unchanged for 30 years:

 

"Limit the exposure of children to violence" ... why would they say that, if it does not have any role in

perpetuating violence, and spawning violent acts in young people?

[DbPhoenix 42]

I'm not convinced that removing guns will solve this because we're seeing similar types of things in China with knife attacks.

 

One can't mow down a roomful of children with a knife.

 

Db

[MightyMouse 12]

Who would you sell to?

Who would buy them and why?

 

I would sell them to a gun shop. They would likely resell them to someone who is able to own a gun.

 

I didn't intend for the discussion to gravitate to the right or the need to carry or own a weapon. The OP was more to point out the imbecility of attempting to get your local school marm to face up to a crazed and driven maniac with an automatic assault arsenal strapped to his torso, hell-bent on taking out anything that moves within 50 feet.

 

To even suggest that the brave school principal could have done anything at all is conjecture, knee-jerk, and futile.

 

I struggle with seeing law enforcement with assault weapons guarding our schools as they have for the last few days. It is asinine to suggest that the principal needs to carry a gun. We are not under siege. Gun nuts look to this and think that if the teachers had guns, this wouldn't have happened. I look at it as if the guns were not in that home, then this wouldn't have happened.

 

I am certain if you watch the media coverage, you'll see the manicured lawns, the pictures of the frail boy in khaki pants and button down shirts and the puzzlement over how this can happen. It is simple: guns were legally purchased by an irresponsible gun nut who allowed her mentally deranged son to have access to them. As a result, he shot 20 children dead with 3-11 shots each. Yes, he shot them 3-11 times each. One needs to think about the ramifications of this for a bit before one decides that to solve the problem we need to add more guns. Just crazy.

 

Ingot,

 

I think I am about 20 years younger than you and I can say that in my lifetime there has not been a single instance where I wished I was carrying a gun. In fact, there are far more instances in my life that I am grateful that I did not have a gun. I think most people can say the same if they don't have an agenda.

 

And you make a good point in that we are completely defenseless against our govt, given the firepower they have.

[Predictor 11]

Db,

Sadly it happens...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932011)

 

China stabbing: 22 children and elderly woman stabbed outside primary school by Chinese knifeman | Mail Online

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre

 

 

 

One can't mow down a roomful of children with a knife.

 

Db

[DbPhoenix 42]

Db,

Sadly it happens...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932011)

 

China stabbing: 22 children and elderly woman stabbed outside primary school by Chinese knifeman | Mail Online

 

Osaka school massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The Henan children were hurt, not killed. The Osaka incident resulted in eight children dead, not an entire classroom.

 

Db

[johnw 10]

...................................................................

If you want what our forefathers intended with the second amendment, then you should be allowed to bear the arms that they intended. At the time of the writing of the 2nd amendment, there were single shot black powder guns, not bushmaster .223s with 30 round clips. They amendment was drafted at a time when the US was vulnerable of attack by England, again, or France, Indians, etc. ........................................................citizen. I .

 

gm MM,

 

Given that the Indians have resided in North America for thousands of years before the European Colonists arrived, it seems odd that you included them with the French and the English.

I would imagine that they would have been perfectly happy to throw the whole lot of you out of their country.

When we read the history of the United States it is obvious that the Country was founded on violence and violence has become embedded in the culture.

I grant you that US was not alone in it's violent approach to colonisation, but there is no safety in numbers, only shame.

There are however lessons from history in abundance .... lessons that just lie about waiting for people to pick them up , learn from them and move on to building a better society.

Does this ever happen .... well perhaps sometimes, but usually only when it is expedient.

All we need to do is look at the world in 2012 and gauge for ourselves.

 

By nature, Man is a reckless, greedy creation who employs violence and the threat of violence as a principle tool to achieving his 'wants' ... to hell with 'needs' Man principally sees only his wants ... in fact he has blurred wants and needs into one driving force, but they still remain 'wants'.

 

One side of his pitiful brain is dedicated to the advancement of technology reaching right back beyond the wheel even to a time when he 'discovered' the pivot and leverage.

So let us fast forward to the .223 Bushmaster.

I wiki-ed it.

I read that it is the best selling AR weapon in US.

I read how it is made and the type of cartridge it was designed around ... in fact the wiki left me with the clear impression that a great deal of thought had gone into it's design and manufacture and I imagine that affordability was a clear intention along with accuracy and the ability to fire continuously with jamming.

 

Nowhere did the article mention the prime purpose of the weapon, and so I will take a guess and say that it is to kill other people.

I imagine that the omission of this small piece of information in the wiki article is a complete oversight .... or else perhaps it is so obvious that it is not worth mentioning.

 

I woke up this morning to the news that Obama is placing Biden in charge of a committee to look into preventing this sort of thing happening again ....make of that what you will, I know that I have ... as Zdo wisely points out that murder is already illegal, and so clearly the Sandy Hook shooter broke the law ... just as well sucicide is no longer illegal otherwise that would be two laws broken ... but wait a moment, isn't unlawful discharge of a weapon another broken law.

Perhaps we will all breath a collective sigh of relief when the next mass shooting involves only people over the age of eighteen.

If you do not like the tone of my writing, so be it.... it is because I am angry.

Angry at the fact that it happened

Angry that it involved young children

Angry because I know that it will happen again and again ... just the when and where remain the mystery.

 

But mostly I am angry because there is no desire intense enough to deal with the nasty realities that are involved ... it is intense desire, a burning desire if you will, that leads us to change ... firstly as individuals and then collectively..... it is this collective burning desire that leads us to the tipping point of change for the greater good.

 

Just as obesity and it's causes has lead to the granting of more lucrative licenses to Pill Companies, so will this tragedy lead to a knee reaction to guard schools with armed guards ... just watch what happens when the next mass shooting occurs.

 

As DbP said that obesity will run it's natural course, and I agree with him .... then perhaps we can reasonably expect that mass shootings will eventually lose favour ... however I for one would not bet on it when I look at the course of history littered as it is with unlearned lessons.

[SIUYA 11]

Db- "the troubles" - i had to look that up as my family has been in Oz 6 generations, and they were originally from Scotland - the last trouble that had there was with the Romans who built a war to keep those crazy highlanders out.

 

I agree its hard to understand a lot of this when you have not come from an area/era of hatred. I have a few Irish friends who left Belfast because they were sick of all that and just wanted to get away from the stubborn mindlessness of it all.

 

...back on gun control...................and stick with me hear as i get a bit wayward.

 

Zdo - not sure how to respond or even to bother as i think you have strayed the discussion so far, and resorted to what are normally seen as last ditch attacks on the person with your insinuations of suggesting i would be a Nazi or Stalinist....

Your Questions..... "SUIYA, you are not a creator of collective maya at this point. But you need to question within – Are you a consumer of collective maya?"

 

and.....

"Btw, readers, if you think the present ‘worldwide’ democracy “best system” is working …ie that we should be trusting government … then, bluntly, I believe you would have also fallen for Stalin, or Hitler, or ________ "

 

This is always the agenda of a poor argument Zdo.....attack the person/s....

 

While you may not have intended this, I believe that is the result.

 

Re Nazis/Stalinists - Most do follow, most will and it will happen again and if you dont think the current US government is any better then what can we say.

Which system of government is better? are any? none?

ananarchist style of all freedoms with self regulating society...?

 

You kind bring the old extreme tyrannical view in as the end result without offering some other suggestion....

 

........................................

 

I do like your....

 

"The stupid founders of this stupid country were very suspicious of government and were quite in favor of tearing them down when they don’t work anymore. "

 

They were probably also in favour of tearing down certain constitutional rights when they dont work any more, or are not needed or irrelevant......but i am not an expert on US constitution or laws......

From my understanding of it however, and my brief understanding of the US history, and the intentions of the founding fathers I might be more a supporter of their original intentions than many Americans.

 

As mentioned this might just be all fueling the fire

 

While I dont have a vested interest, I would side on gun control much for the reasons given by MM, and yet also understand the desires of personal freedoms. No body needs most of these weapons unless they want to use them to kill people....plus with less guns there is probably less likelihood of such incidents.

Having a pop gun against the government who is out to get you is unlikely to make much difference....

 

I do struggle with what i see as the emotional knee jerk responses by the bleeding hearts, as much as i do with the rational thought processes of those who want freedom and will create tyranny and an armed populace in order to protect it.

.....hence a middle ground needs to be determined......

 

I dont think the average USA citizen has much to fear from its government compared to many other places in the world, and in fact has more to fear from the corporatisation that is occuring....a whole other issue, which guns probably wont help.

Personally I would like the pro gun lobby to come out and say - if we want to protect ourselves in our homes from intruders or the government then every now and again this even will occur. Regardless of mental health, social security, border patrols etc....This sort of trade off at least would be an honest summation.

................

Posting that the media loves gun killing sprees is ludicrous Zdo - the media is a business, they love news, and will print that Kim Kardashians dog licked its balls if it sold a news paper......putting up such drivel detracts from any rational discussion about the issue at hand IMHO. The media also works both sides of the fence and will have people both pushing gun control and also more liberal gun laws....so whats your point with this.

Is this about gun control.

 

If you dont believe both sides will use anything to push their own agenda then what can I say.

 

IMHO- I hope those that push either agenda actually actively support the things that provide the checks and balances and the separations of controls and the systems to minimise corruption and tyranny first and foremost that make the systems in the US (while maybe not perfect) one of the better ones we have available. You should not need to defend it if you dont know what you are defending.

 

all good fuel.

[DbPhoenix 42]

As DbP said that obesity will run it's natural course, and I agree with him

 

I did? I wonder what the context was. The natural course would be death, though that would improve the gene pool, much like gun advocates who shoot each other and their children, as has happened several times in the past few weeks.

 

.... then perhaps we can reasonably expect that mass shootings will eventually lose favour ... however I for one would not bet on it when I look at the course of history littered as it is with unlearned lessons.

 

Depends on how you define "eventually". We in the US probably hate more people than just about anybody else. The last genuinely good-hearted effort that springs to mind is the Berlin Airlift. We hate Indians, Asians, Jews, "Mexicans", at one time the Irish and Catholics, in this time Muslims, and Negroes. Most especially Negroes. Whether the violence springs from all this hatred or the hatred springs from the violence is debatable. But it's nothing new. One can quite easily trace it back to Manifest Destiny, though even the idea of Manifest Destiny is nothing new (see Alexander, Elizabeth, Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler).

 

But while the rest of the world eventually got over all this, some voluntarily and some not, we haven't, most probably because of our immaturity. We are, after all, still fighting the "War Between the States", which was more or less an extension of the fighting that went on in the Continental Congress.

 

It isn't that gun advocates don't understand the why and how of societies; it is that the society they have and want is so different from that of everybody else. Whether the two societies can coexist within the same national boundaries under the same constitution remains to be seen.

 

Db

[MightyMouse 12]

 

But mostly I am angry because there is no desire intense enough to deal with the nasty realities that are involved ... it is intense desire, a burning desire if you will, that leads us to change ... firstly as individuals and then collectively..... it is this collective burning desire that leads us to the tipping point of change for the greater good.

 

 

I too am about as angry as one can be and even more angry to understand that nothing will happen to prevent this from happening again. As long as irresponsible people are allowed access to guns, these massacres will occur.

 

I cringe hearing the reports now that the woman was teaching her son to respect guns. Yes, a mentally deranged person is going to learn a sound respect for firearms.

[johnw 10]

I did? I wonder what the context was. The natural course would be death, though that would improve the gene pool, much like gun advocates who shoot each other and their children, as has happened several times in the past few weeks.

 

Db

 

Well there you go DbP ... you dispense good advice and opinion at a rate faster than your ability to retain it.

[smmatrix 11]

Arming citizens "and teachers" is a valid solution.

 

This is why there is no school shootings in Israel:

 

[smmatrix 11]

FACT: Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates in the world of any industrialized country.

 

FACT: Switzerland has the highest gun ownership per capita in the world with 46 guns per 100 population.

 

FACT: The Swiss government issues every household a Sig 550 assault rifle.

 

Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates in the world with most everyone armed.

 

Think for yourself. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to reach a conclusion here.