What Do You See?

[TheNegotiator 13]

I'm sure the psychologists out there will have (and probably already have had somewhere) a field day on this one. What is it that makes different people look at the same thing and come to vastly different conclusions about implications or meanings etc.? From watching your favourite sport to talking about the latest news item in the pub. From observing markets to forum posts. People see different things and these different views can sometimes be beneficial and sometimes not so beneficial. Sometimes someone can say something very different to what you've interpreted and actually, both things can be useful. Sometimes of course we can or somebody else can misinterpret something and come to an incorrect viewpoint. But the differences are usually there in either case. Is it emotions? Is it objectives? Is it indoctrinations? Is it just 'personality'?

 

Getting to the heart of it, how do we mechanically identify our own objectivity and remove obstacles to viewing the world for how it really is?

[ForexTraderX 10]

Mechanically? i highly doubt it's this easy.... but I've found that there is an objective truth in most things...and in many others, there is a subjective interpretation or point of view.

 

So how to tell one from the other? Know thyself...

 

If a person knows their own strengths, and their own weaknesses, they can start to identify various areas of competence in which they do have a more complete picture of an objective reality... as well as identify various areas or situations in which that clarity and objectivity may become quite fuzzy.... Knowing ones weaknesses will NOT provide clarity to understand the objective truth. What it will do is provide a "warning sign" of sorts... if a person can recognize that they are in a situation that is very likely to bring their weaknesses into play, then they would be wise to acknowledge the situation or viewpoint they are about to engage in is something they likely do not understand, dispite how they may feel about it.

 

When a posture of humility is taken, it is much easier to gain a more complete view of a situation or concept, than it is if a posture of "mastery" and competence is taken. such stronger postures are fine and appropriate when dealing in areas of a persons strength... but not in their weaknesses.

 

Know Thyself. This is one way to find better, more "real" answers and insights.

 

Another way is to recognize that we are not our thoughts, or our ideas, or our experiences, or our emotions, etc... These things all contribute to our sense of self... "ego" in the purest sense of the word.

 

And it is such self definitions that ultimately become greatly self limiting.

 

If I tell myself that I'm sophisticated. That I am more financially astute than most, and that I've spent an immense amount of time learning how to be sophisticated and astute... I've literally created a very constricting sense of self that... in other words...goes something like:

 

"Your information can be dismissed, because you lack the sophistication that I have. I find that I listen to a few individuals whom I respect for their financial knowledge, but if I don't respect your financial knowledge, then I will pretty much dismiss everything and anything you say that has to do with financial information. I've also worked my ass off to get to where I am in terms of knowledge and experience, and my pride in my previous work often casts an elitist shadow that others don't appreciate, so I "turn off" many who may have better insights, but are not interested in sharing it with me because of my demenor and attitude."

 

this is an incredible oversimplification, but I think most will get the idea...

 

I make a deliberate effort these days to "prove" a new idea is flawed... In doing so, it keeps me from quickly dismissing something that sounds' flawed, but may in fact be flawless...or at very least, partially helpful.

 

I also sometimes tell myself that I am not my ideas. I am not my knowledge. I'm just a curious person who wants answers. And answers can come from anywhere, and everywhere.

 

:::shrug::::

 

To be candid, I don't struggle with this concept of "which idea best represents the reality?"...because I am constantly looking for new ideas to replace the ones I have. I take pride in that process of always trying to replace my current models of the markets... and in doing so, I never become bound or limited to a "favorite" way of looking at things, because no matter how effective or helpful or clever... I simply don't identify myself or my actions or my feelings with any particular view of the markets. This makes new information and points of view very easy to consider, since doing so does not threaten my ego, my self image, or my status in the world.

 

FTX

[zdo 20]

... What is it that makes different people look at the same thing and come to vastly different conclusions about implications or meanings etc.? From watching your favourite sport to talking about the latest news item in the pub. From observing markets to forum posts. People see different things and these different views can sometimes be beneficial and sometimes not so beneficial. Sometimes someone can say something very different to what you've interpreted and actually, both things can be useful. Sometimes of course we can or somebody else can misinterpret something and come to an incorrect viewpoint. But the differences are usually there in either case. Is it emotions? Is it objectives? Is it indoctrinations? Is it just 'personality'*?

 

Getting to the heart of it, how do we mechanically identify our own objectivity and remove obstacles to viewing the world for how it really is?

 

Hm - and this is coming from a guy who said:

"...In the same way that pointing out that you need to find a strategy that fits your personality* (which also is kind of silly imo)..."

:rofl: ;razz;

 

re: "... Is it ____ ? Is it ____? ..." It's all of the above and more

... and you forgot 'Is it beliefs?'...

'believe what we do when we don't know...

 

We cannot possibly come to the same "conclusions" if we can not possibly form the same neural 'chunk' for a perception of an event as someone else. ... and further...

 

We can never experience / see the "'world"... we can only experience / see our representations of it. The work is bringing those representations into closer and closer alignment with 'reality' - so that our acts take on qualities of incisive clarity and mature 'power'.

“Find your own way” is a primary choice

… once that choice is made, making the secondary choices to orient twds consciousness via mindful awareness becomes increasingly seamless

ie needing to stop caring about how someone else is ‘seeing’ and "concluding" (and knowing, and sharing, and understanding, and teaching, and trading, etc etc) becomes progressively rarer.

 

 

*personality - one more time... it goes far beyond personality...

:haha:I believe the use of that term herein is revealing of limiting beliefs

[TheNegotiator 13]

Hm - and this is coming from a guy who said:

"...In the same way that pointing out that you need to find a strategy that fits your personality* (which also is kind of silly imo)..."

:rofl: ;razz;

 

My point is that 'personality' is potentially a hindrance. How do you get closer to seeing things as they really are?

 

*personality - one more time... it goes far beyond personality...

:haha:I believe the use of that term herein is revealing of limiting beliefs

 

Yes I thought you'd pick up on that one zdo! Note the use of inverted commas.

[zdo 20]

re: "How do you get closer to seeing things as they really are?"

 

going out the door in a few minutes ... will try to post a reply tomorrow ...

[zdo 20]

Hey folks, Here we go… :rofl:

...and remember - “…Sometimes someone can say something very different to what you've interpreted…”

… and In typical zdo fashion I don’t have time to build a good case or to explain it fully or even adequately.

… and in a fashion atypical to a ‘laboratory’, I will assert though that the best sample size is a sample size of one – You.

 

One consolation: don’t worry - you would only get this kind of reply from one in 10000 ‘psychologists’ or trading coaches, etc. In the modern paradigms, the “mental” aspects have taken ascendency.

“Relax", "de-stress", "meditate", "stretch", "get in shape" yada yada …

‘Medicate’ / suppress your symptoms so you can fix your thinking.

Fix your thinking and you have fixed your life… yada yada… In my experiences of the last decade, all that misses the mark

 

 

Instead - here we go…

How do you get closer to seeing things as they really are?

 

Short answer =

“Thou art that”

Only when you be, feel, think, and sense that seamlessly do you get closer to seeing things as they really are.

 

A longer (but still very incomplete) answer =

The Body

In the modern world, the most dominant obstacle is the body.

The primary, (unapproached, avoided, unconscious) element in the body is compromised biotensegrity of the various types and ‘bags’ of myofacsia that develop from adaptations to threats and stress. Bound flow in the myofascia spreads to create structural malformations…which leads to degradation of functionality in perceptions and muscular and neural performance...

Again, I’m not attempting building a solid, influential case for this… If you want to explore this in detail see the works of Stephen Levin, Thomas Myers, Stanley Keleman, etc. If you want to skip investigation of the theoretical bs and begin actual clearing work, PM me for an unaffiliated referral. My point herein is that each perception, each ‘neural chunk’ is made up as much from movements, proprioception, patterned reactions, centered ‘out’ in the body as it is brain processing of sensations like sight, etc., thoughts and emotions. These residual tensions, fear reactivity, sensory motor amnesia, having “chair shaped” front and back ‘lines’ etc, etc block flow.

Flow is our natural state… our birthright… which we give up gradually… and which is our responsibility to reclaim… and only in flow can we see the world as it is.

Note: Don’t confuse the content above to be about flexibility, relaxation response, etc etc, or ‘fitness’ as it is currently defined… or limit it to the 'flow' of Csikszentmihalyi... and it is not ‘martial’ either (… although much can be garnered via the ‘martial’ . In flow, styles become indistinguishable.etc etc…)

 

The Brains

Our wonderful capacities to generalize, build off previous similarities and differences experienced, see ‘trends’, tendencies, etc, etc. in a stim filled world can push the more simple, pure awareness – simply seeing what is with ‘new eyes’ – into a recessive, rarely activated, mode. Practicing mindfulness gets us to where we can see in real-time how and when we have learned to rely on our concepts of reality more than our observations of reality. Mindfulness is a choice to become aware of and break the loop of inevitable confirmations you will find if you are examining reality with a preconceived idea of what you will find. It is a choice that takes about 1000 - 10000 quality tries before it starts to get some sustainable traction. The concepts and projections, and predictions continue, but they can, when needed, be left more in the background.

Also and unfortunately, the exact same capability that makes our analytical brains perfectly suited for its deductive reasoning tasks makes them completely vulnerable to being deceived into thinking they can judge right or wrong, good or bad. So certain ‘parts’ of our brains (without getting all ‘hemispheric’ or ‘religious’ btw) often conscript ‘judging’ as a role. But whenever we try to be the analytical expert on what’s wrong with something, we are blocking our capacity to 'see' reality as it is. The analytical brain’s role is simply to present to the whole a representation, an as accurate as possible replication (sorta like holographic ? a duplication ?) … another skill that takes about 1000 - 10000 high-quality attempts to advance from the ‘cognitive’ level of performing a task to the ‘associated’ level where the process begins to become automatic in nature.

… and, btw, 'personality' is potentially a hindrance, but only a minor one.

...and emotions - once the blocks are cleared are also and usually only minor obstacles. … the task with them is to simply bring the lucidity and adaptation enhancing ones to the training (and living and the trade station, etc) … a “team”, as our ‘psychologist’ friend Rande H. calls it, of the best emotions to put out on the field... then, emotional 'reactions' become valuable 'soft' data sources... not obstacles...

 

The ...

Progressing along … starting in utero, as we ‘co-create’ our 'self ' / as we ‘leave’ unity… we make “decisions”’ around polarities that, unless neutralized, cancel our ‘seeing of the world as it is’ for our whole lives. Neutralizing your individual set of these polarities opens up domains that normals consider to be metaphysical or supersensory, etc…. but really they are normal… not meta or supra at all… notice above I did not use the word Mind at all… the real Mind is one of those realms… Soul is too… Spirit,too… none of them are ‘special’…

Again, this is not the place or the audience to ‘explain’ ... Anyone who has questions, PM me for references and referrals.

 

As the rap song goes “You can take the bitch out of trading… but you can’t take the bitch out of trading”

[Colonel B 10]

Wow all the responses so far you need at least some sort of advanced schooling to understand. First off I don't agree with the main stream consensus about psychology in the first place and so far all of the responses are eloquent and publisher worthy. Just reading the first page has been an exercise in journeying into the realm of science and philosophy. Lets pull out the bean bag chairs and blow up furniture fire up the hookah and delve into the cosmos.

 

This is what I do. I scroll out and look at the market at least 1 time frame larger then I am looking at and I ask myself what a 12 year old would say about it. Unexciting I know but hey it works. I use market profile and I usually look at 30 min bars. I mostly look at the current day and the previous day so for me I would look at the overnight in between and maybe the last 5 days with overnight included. I will do this and ask what a 12 year old would see. Is it up or down or just going sideways.

 

So if a 10 min is the largest you look at then switch to a 30 min and at least double how much space you have on your screen. If you normally have 2 hours of 10 min candles on what you consider your main chart (12 in the case of 10 mins) then have at least double that on the larger time frame. You should have 24 30 min candles and now are looking at 12 hours of info like a 12 year old. Is it going up, down, or sideways? Making new highs, new lows, or falling short and not doing much of anything? Its been going up for a few hours but now coming down now? Or the most important 12 year old observation... I DON'T KNOW. Some times its not clear what it is doing. You don't have to have an opinion all the time every time. Sometimes it pays to wait till it becomes more clearer. Let the other folks that think they know battle it out and then when the winner becomes clear or more clear then attack.

 

The other thing I do that is really good is I ask myself how would I feel taking a trade here. If you scroll out and see that we have been on a down trend for a few days now and you see folks getting long you can judge some conviction by how you would feel. Would you hold onto that trade if it goes in your direction then against? Maybe you would but if you would be a little nervous then its safe to assume that other traders are nervous there as well. If its consolidated there for a little while you would feel a little better and again others most likely feel the same and has a better chance of holding. If you have a profit target of 8 ticks and it goes 7 and comes back to your entry how do you feel? If it doesn't effect you and you have no emotions then maybe you are a sociopath. Well it does a majority of other traders and that is what is important. If you are buying at the bottom with a bunch of other guys rest assured that they may be really nervous and if it doesn't go right away then they will get out right away.

If its the third or fourth or fifth time in a certain area then traders are really leery that it wont work on those times. If you are shorting some triple top for the day understand that other traders that are short with you might be convinced that it has less of a chance to hold this time up there and feel that the trade is more "riskier" this time up. It is really the same as if we are buying at the bottom of a lots of down days mentioned earlier.

 

So that is my mechanical way of looking at the market. I think all that nonsense about trading is 80% mental and 20% everything is so misleading. Also all that getting caught up into your own head and find a system that works for you is also crap. I think its the overwhelming indoctrination on this psychological topic that causes these beliefs. This is one of those industries that it pays to pay attention to what everyone else is doing and what they maybe thinking.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Colonel B

[Patuca 13]

as a person that travels alot in other countries and interacts with cultures i would say none of us can ever see all things as they really are. our w.v. influences many things much of which is unconcious or just taken for granted. however, interaction with others does broaden our capacity to see things from another angle. like me, i relate much trading to moto riding because that is part of my world. see my posts in mitsubishi's red/green team thread..i get ridiculed for it but if you haven't ridden a moto you may not understand...

 

reality, many timesl is too radical so we can't see it or accept it completely. plus not all we do see is necessary to survival or success. much of our interpretation of reality is done through the the lenses of our culture..from which we get our values, beliefs, behaviour.

[TheNegotiator 13]

Some interesting replies so far. I'd probably home in on colonelb for a minute though. I think that by organising things in a consistent mechanical way, it becomes easier to objectively assess and compare things in your trading (and in life). But what if the market (or life) throws you a curveball? If something totally unexpected comes up, what do you do to remain objective in these situations? After all, it's these extreme situations that may well make or break us.

[zdo 20]

... how do we mechanically identify our own objectivity and remove obstacles to viewing the world for how it really is?

 

mechanically ???

 

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.”

– Albert Einstein

 

 

 

 

I think that by organising things in a consistent mechanical way, it becomes easier to objectively assess and compare things in your trading (and in life).

“To trace something unknown back to something known is alleviating, soothing, gratifying and gives moreover a feeling of power. Danger, disquiet, anxiety attend the unknown – the first instinct is to eliminate these distressing states. First principle: any explanation is better than none… The cause-creating drive is thus conditioned and excited by the feeling of fear …"

– F. Nietzsche

 

 

But what if the market (or life) throws you a curveball? If something totally unexpected comes up, what do you do to remain objective in these situations? After all, it's these extreme situations that may well make or break us.

“Very few beings really seek knowledge in this world. Mortal or immortal, few really ask. On the contrary, they try to wring from the unknown the answers they have already shaped in their own minds – justifications, confirmations, forms of consolation without which they can't go on. To really ask is to open the door to the whirlwind. The answer may annihilate the question and the questioner.”

– Anne Rice, The Vampire Lestat

 

)

Edited October 30, 2012 by zdo