To a Handful of Traders Out There

[PristineTrading 10]

Good Morning All:

 

If you are an experienced trader, you can skip reading this article. If you are new, or if you have been at this less than a year and not making money yet, you may want to read this. If you have been at it more than a year and are not making money, you probably will not read this.

 

To a Handful of Traders Out There

 

I have to accept the fact that there are very few people willing to recognize in the early stages of trading that they need an education. It should seem obvious, as it is the only acceptable route in any other high-paying profession. While I have to accept that fact, I do not really understand it. Having excepted it, I know that the next best thing we can do at Pristine is to make sure people stay under our wing until they are ready to advance their careers through a proper education.

 

We want to make sure that you stay with us even if you have not yet made a commitment to be a full or part-time trader, or to manage your own long-term money. To do that we want to continuously improve you and your knowledge by offering a variety of ways to obtain great information for free. Every 6 to 8 weeks we do a seminar called "Online Trading Essentials". There is a nominal charge for it but if you are currently a Pristine student you can get it for free. If you are in the process of discussing a seminar with a counselor, you may also be able to get it free. Talk to your counselor. It is a great class that delivers four and a half hours of nonstop critical information about many of the topics that traders need to know about trading. Everything from advanced concepts about risk management and share sizing, down to what a level II screen is for, and how to use news and/or fundamental analysis in your trading. This is all information that is critical to know, yet on the other hand is too basic to actually be taught in our paid for seminars as they focus purely on technical or more advanced topics.

 

In addition, we are introducing a new series of "Power Trading Workshops" that are designed to deliver more information and they come to you Monday through Thursday (some weeks may only be three days) at 4.15, just after the market closes. Some of these will have new topics that have not been discussed, and some will blend some old favorites and new twists. Naturally, we still have new people who want to know about Pristine and about some of what we teach, and that will be included in some of the topics as well. You can view the schedule for these on our homepage or in the e-mails that you receive. They are under the topic of either "Power Trading Workshops", or "Free Webinars".

 

 

 

 

Paul Lange

Vice President of Services

Pristine Capital Holdings, Inc.

[TheNegotiator 13]

There are two problems which spring to mind when it comes to education in trading.

 

1 - People don't really understand what a trading education should look like and educators are not open enough as to what they provide.

 

2 - As far as I'm aware, virtually every trading educator out there has no prerequisites whatsoever in order to qualify for a course other than $. Think of good universities. Do they take anyone? (well maybe they do if you sponsor them with $ millions+!)

 

A good education is a highly beneficial thing in any walk of life, but it remains difficult for students to see that and/or identify what is truly good.

[ForexTraderX 10]

 

2 - As far as I'm aware, virtually every trading educator out there has no prerequisites whatsoever in order to qualify for a course other than $. Think of good universities. Do they take anyone? (well maybe they do if you sponsor them with $ millions+!)

.

 

I couldn't agree more with this. Dr. Van Tharpe has done some work on personality types and trading, and out of 15 different personality types that Tharpe has catagorized and defined, 2 of them are "ideally" suited to trading. There are 10 that are probably able to become proficient in trading, but they have a bit of an uphill battle in some aspect of their psyche... And then there are 3 personalities that just are not up to the task.

 

Here's the test if anyone is interested... it's free.

 

Tharp Trader Test

 

And this brings me to another point that I think would make an appropriate #3 on your list Neg... if one is fortunate enough to have the aptitude to trade, and also has access to the best educational information... there still remains the process of converting that information into a format that suites the trader. I've seen at least 1 or 2 people who had everything required to become successful traders. In fact, both of them DID become successful, but their first mentorship experience was a flop, because they were learning from a mentor whos trading style was not going to work for their own personality.

 

FTX

[TheNegotiator 13]

I couldn't agree more with this. Dr. Van Tharpe has done some work on personality types and trading, and out of 15 different personality types that Tharpe has catagorized and defined, 2 of them are "ideally" suited to trading. There are 10 that are probably able to become proficient in trading, but they have a bit of an uphill battle in some aspect of their psyche... And then there are 3 personalities that just are not up to the task.

 

Here's the test if anyone is interested... it's free.

 

Tharp Trader Test

 

And this brings me to another point that I think would make an appropriate #3 on your list Neg... if one is fortunate enough to have the aptitude to trade, and also has access to the best educational information... there still remains the process of converting that information into a format that suites the trader. I've seen at least 1 or 2 people who had everything required to become successful traders. In fact, both of them DID become successful, but their first mentorship experience was a flop, because they were learning from a mentor whos trading style was not going to work for their own personality.

 

FTX

 

True, but at least in the example of that case they do know what they are talking about.

[zdo 20]

To Pristine’s credit, re : “handful of traders” – he does seem to be acknowledging the tiny niche he can actually help.

... however it looks like he immediately backslides from that with "...We want to make sure that you stay with us..." = delusional...

"staying" for most will be a waste of both party's time...

 

 

 

 

re:

 

I couldn't agree more with this. Dr. Van Tharpe has done some work on personality types and trading, and out of 15 different personality types that Tharpe has catagorized and defined, 2 of them are "ideally" suited to trading. There are 10 that are probably able to become proficient in trading, but they have a bit of an uphill battle in some aspect of their psyche... And then there are 3 personalities that just are not up to the task.

 

Here's the test if anyone is interested... it's free.

 

Tharp Trader Test

 

And this brings me to another point that I think would make an appropriate #3 on your list Neg... if one is fortunate enough to have the aptitude to trade, and also has access to the best educational information... there still remains the process of converting that information into a format that suites the trader. I've seen at least 1 or 2 people who had everything required to become successful traders. In fact, both of them DID become successful, but their first mentorship experience was a flop, because they were learning from a mentor whos trading style was not going to work for their own personality.

 

FTX

 

 

 

Excellent points…

I take them even further.

The really thriving traders I know are ‘rule makers’ not ‘rule followers’. They are not AND NEVER HAVE BEEN good candidates for ‘trading education’… am pretty sure this fits into Tharpe’s profile / test (and stats) … but don’t know exactly how

 

re "there still remains the process of converting that information into a format that suites the trader" Rule of thumb: The more similar a 'trading education' is to 'normal education' (which is in itself also fuctup) the more useless it is...

 

//

 

Re mentors: “…their first mentorship experience was a flop, because they were learning from a mentor whos trading style was not going to work for their own personality.” It goes way beyond ‘personality’… and I understand you may have just used the word for brevity, but the few who might be mislead by the term’s usage are unfortunately among those that need not to be mislead the most:roll eyes:

 

More refinement re mentors…if you are 'learning' from a mentor, you are not being mentored yet. A great mentor has the perfect question from his pile of questions at the ready… but he does not provide one single answer.

[ForexTraderX 10]

 

 

Excellent points…

I take them even further.

The really thriving traders I know are ‘rule makers’ not ‘rule followers’. They are not AND NEVER HAVE BEEN good candidates for ‘trading education’… am pretty sure this fits into Tharpe’s profile / test (and stats) … but don’t know exactly how

 

 

Ya Zdo... agreed man. I do better in terms of risk adjusted ROI as well as just straight ROI than most professional traders from what little anecdotal information I've come across (though some do MUCH better than me of course) I'm probably about 60% "rule maker", and 38% "rule breaker"... and about 2% "rule follower".

 

my current trading plan is 1 page, and has 2 rules on it. I don't have a method, or system, or a "setup". I take a very comprehensive and organic approach to my trading. It usually starts with me opening up a daily chart, and scanning about 30 markets to see what markets look like they might be setting up for a good opportunity. This could be recent candlestick patterns, but it could be an overextended move, a broken trendline, a very significant area of S/R, a retest that will complete a "market symmetry" pattern, or even something else, like a stellar "market profile" level, etc.

 

I make a few notes about what i'm seeing, and in which markets. Then, I start combing through correlated markets, weighted baskets of currencies, world equity markets, bond markets, COT data, etc, and try to use these things to isolate the best 2 or 3 opportunities from those that I picked out of the charts.

 

Once I feel I've got a good idea of where the flow of money in the world is trending, and what (if any) catalysts could change or alter this, I am almost ready to trade. The next thing I do is I match the story in my head to the market that I'm trading. After all is said and done, I have to believe in my trade, otherwise, I'll second guess the shit out of it. So, if I can't find an acceptable story to fit into what I'm seeing, then I just don't trade it.

 

FInally, assuming I have completed all of this, I then look at S/R levels on every time frame, from 1 min to weekly charts, and I also watch price action as it comes into these levels on every TF, from 1 min to a daily chart. I also look at levels that I know are havens for institutional interest, primarily because of the quantity/type of orders that are likley to be at those prices.

 

If all this that i'm watching makes sense, then I do something. Usually a lot of something. I sometimes put on a single order, and walk away, but more often I take 5-10 entrries on each opportunity, as I try to pinpoint the bottom or top of a move by less than 10 pips. I take many very small losses, but even more decent sized gains.

 

price starts to stall? I close part out. Pulling back? I close part out. just made a 5 min reversal candle after it's pullback, and looks to continue the move? I put more on. etc.

 

Sometimes I close it all out minutes later. Sometimes... MONTHS later. (i've been short german 10 year bonds since June, as one example)

 

ANYWAY... the point of this whole monologue here is to give the readers here some perspective on what a :"rule maker" looks like as opposed to a "rule follower". I don't have setups, methods, systems, or criteria that I need to be met in order to trade. I just know how markets work, I then have ideas about direction, and I build a new "blueprint" each day to help me get the most out of the opportunity i'm currently looking at, for the least amount of risk.

 

and to concur with your second point... I absolutly have NO idea how I would teach this, other than as a collaborative, organic, intimate, conversation with someone who just loves to learn about the worlds capital markets.

 

So who taught me? I did. I have no idea how someone could possibly distill my approach to the markets down to a "paint by numbers" approach. I honestly don't think it's possible. It's like doing a step-by-step guide to: "theatrical improv ", or "jazz solos".. It' can't be done. I would have loved to come across someone that COULD have shown me what I know now... but, I would not have been able to get it from a "trading boot camp", that's for certain.

 

As far as the Tharpe Trader Test goes... I'm the "Strategic Trader". Makes sense right? And that's just the point. The funny thing about strategy, is the process is pretty much the same, but the situation and influencing factors are in constant flux.... Definately not a place for "rule followers", "holy grail setup mavins", or "forex bootcamp profiteers"

 

FTX

[TheRumpledOne 14]

I couldn't agree more with this. Dr. Van Tharpe has done some work on personality types and trading, and out of 15 different personality types that Tharpe has catagorized and defined, 2 of them are "ideally" suited to trading. There are 10 that are probably able to become proficient in trading, but they have a bit of an uphill battle in some aspect of their psyche... And then there are 3 personalities that just are not up to the task.

 

Here's the test if anyone is interested... it's free.

 

Tharp Trader Test

 

And this brings me to another point that I think would make an appropriate #3 on your list Neg... if one is fortunate enough to have the aptitude to trade, and also has access to the best educational information... there still remains the process of converting that information into a format that suites the trader. I've seen at least 1 or 2 people who had everything required to become successful traders. In fact, both of them DID become successful, but their first mentorship experience was a flop, because they were learning from a mentor whos trading style was not going to work for their own personality.

 

FTX

 

Thanks for sharing. Can't wait to see how I score...LOL!

[ForexTraderX 10]

Thanks for sharing. Can't wait to see how I score...LOL!

 

Welll now Rump.... you can't put on heels and lingere, light all the candles in the house, but then just curl up in a ball at the edge of the bed and go to sleep now....

 

and ya can't just lead in like "oh man, I can't wait to see how I score... LOL!" and then not share how you score!!

 

I bet you got "fun loving trader" or some other total sucky one like that. LOL

 

J/K man. But I am now curious as to what you got :p

 

FTX

[steve46 12]

As regards "following rules" it depends....if you have a set of rules that are tested and proven, it would be foolish not to follow them to the letter.....the problem is

 

A.) Most folks don't have a proven set of rules

B.) Unable to muster the discipline to follow the rules

 

As an example....I am in process of walk forward testing of my rule set...need 400 data points in order to make a determination....during the few weeks that I have been testing I have had several observers watch me trade, and each (and every one) has at some point suggested trades outside the rules....even though its been explained to them (rules are simply to wait for a specific small group of extreme levels to be tested)

 

So what I've done is to track those "suggestions" and produce a record of those results vs. what my rule set has done to date......and the record is very revealing...

 

My system rules have produced a net profit 81% of days since I began....."Observers" suggestions have produced net losses EVERY day since we began the process.....EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN DAY.....

 

and for those interested, my analysis of these "suggestions" shows that most amateurs would be tempted to trade inside areas that produce congestions or range bound price action...further these traders (all of them having some experience) tend to want to keep on doing the same damn thing (entering trades in areas of congestion) even though it continued to produce losses....

[TRADEZILLA 10]

New traders will clearly learn much faster if taught and guided by a successful seasoned trader but most of the heavy lifting is in the EXECUTION and dealing with the NUANCES and DISSONANCE that comes with trading. New traders should not have to pay for general wisdom like "keep your losses small" and "hold your winners" and etc.. or pay for hindsight analysis and pay big bucks for it, which seems to be the norm like sheep eager to be fleeced.. Think about it; you can make up any method (rational or irrational) you can imagine in 5min, and I can easily pick out all the hind sight winners for you and show you how it worked perfectly.. It means nothing if you can't survive the stop..

 

Unfortunately, most places that teach trading will teach everything except the execution and charge a small fortune and they have thousands of students that buys into that.. Every method has some validity in various market conditions.. Its the ability to capture that opportunity that new traders need to learn, the execution.. the ability to sort thru the dissonance and nuances.. This means the ability to read the market real time..

 

If a mentor can show their execution real time and give real time rationale, I think the student will be very fortunate to have found such a mentor.. Otherwise, I'd say try to get some good free tips from other good traders in the forums and save your money and learn by blowing a few accounts trying out your own method.. that will teach a lot..

 

I don't think trading real time and explaining things real time is too difficult for a competent trader as they know what they're looking for within various contexts.. That's what new traders should seek when they're ready to pay to learn.. Everything else is free on the forums and internet.. You have to learn by doing but someone to help you read the market real time and guide the execution will warp speed your learning curve and that I believe is money well spent..

Edited October 28, 2012 by TRADEZILLA

[steve46 12]

Yes hard to imagine anyone being so naive as to pay for instruction that doesn't permit the student to watch trades being executed.....also difficult to imagine any student being so naive as to think they can learn without having the teacher watch them execute entries and exits.....I can't imagine anyone being that ignorant, but since you bring it up...there it is...

 

As for finding "free" resources on the Internet....most of the content I read on the Internet (including here on this site) consist of half truths peppered with urban myth....generally the content is of very poor quality, and if used as the basis for education, the trader can expect to end up bewildered and broke...

 

What works is what can be shown to work, and demonstrated...here is one example....prior to beginning a class I ask students to go through an exercise as follows. I ask them to take a coin (a quarter is preferred) and a pad of paper and spend about an hour flipping that coin and writing down the results.....Every 10 flips they are to make note of the results....in theory coin flips should result in an approximately 50/50 split between heads and tails....in practice, as a coin is flipped there will be runs of heads and runs of tails...if the students will simply take this time to do the exercise, what they learn is valuable because it demonstrates some very important truths about trading (and statistics)....from this exercise alone I can ussually tell if a student is "going to make it" in this business.

 

I certainly apologize if I have offended anyone...

Edited October 29, 2012 by steve46

[zdo 20]

Thanks for sharing. Can't wait to see how I score...LOL!

 

TRO,

At your level of development you might be better served checking how many of those ‘types’ of trader you can evoke, bring forth, embody, etc. on demand – instead of just surveying which type you ‘are’ … just a thought…

All the best.

zdo

[SunTrader 10]

My test result:

 

"You are a planning Trader"

 

"You tend to be decisive and to the point. You can spot logical inefficiencies in the market easily and take advantage of them, especially if you are pointed in the right direction. You enjoy long-term planning and goal setting and seem to enjoy learning, expanding your knowledge and staying well-informed".

 

But who knows really.

[peterevanson 10]

I’ve done the Tharp Trader Test and also the Investor Test from an Australian company it’s also free if anyone is interested

australianinvestmenteducation.com.au/quiz