Is Discipline Enough to Succeed?

[mattz 10]

I think this article puts "discipline" in a good perspective.

As this article says: randomness and lack of method often gets confused with discipline.

Emini S&P 500 Trading Course, Indicators, Volume Profiling

[Vince50 10]

all the discipline in the world won't help a losing, non viable, strategy become a winning strategy. sticking strictly to the rules of a losing strategy will just make a person become an expert loser.

 

Patuca is 100% right. I think waqy too much emphasis is placed on discipline because it allows people who are not traders to sell books and courses!!! I'm in this game 15 years and I can tell you this,if you have a great system, you can afford to not be disciplined once in a while and you will still do great. I think we need to focus on this: WHAT is wrong with my system that I cant be disciplined with it all the time? #2-Or...Is this the right system for my personality that discipline is a problem? Maybe it is not me, it is the system. If you told every trader on this board, they could maker a living just buying over the previous days high and selling when it breaks any days low, would there be one person foolish enough not to be able to follow that? No! Everyone has enough discipline for that. So then what is the real problem? I could tell you, but then.....(smile)

[zdo 20]

I think this article puts "discipline" in a good perspective.

...Emini S&P 500 Trading Course, Indicators, Volume Profiling

 

My sentiments (NOT) exactly (but very close...

...for one, they too are still using the 'd' word way to broadly...)

:spam:

[michael45 10]

Discipline is the based in humans. When we doing a business I think we must protect our discipline. If some do not have discipline it mean that person is not a human.

[Vince50 10]

Discipline is the based in humans. When we doing a business I think we must protect our discipline. If some do not have discipline it mean that person is not a human.

 

Mike, so what do you want to call the 2 million people we have in our prisons who cant get thru a day by themselves without being told what to do? And the drug cartels whose only discipline is murder?

 

Here is an interesting point. In most things, art in particular, there are always 2 kinds of artists. The paint by the numbers type of person, and the true artist who does his own thing.(like a discretionary trader) In boxing there is the disciplined boxer who keeps his hands up at all times as 'all" disciplined boxers do, and then you have Muhammed Ali who almost never did it. Who wins:discipline or intuition. Just a thought. But intuition can be mistaken for a discretionary system, and discretionary systems have a lot of ways to get into trouble. However in stocks, the best traders who play opening gaps and need their eye to measure velocity of money moving a stock around, you must be discretionary.I myself started as a discretionary trader, and now I try to be a rule based trader but I must confess there is no greater thrill for me than to "out guess" my system and get out right in the middle of the pair going my way because the other corrolated instruments arent tagging along.And 1 minute later the top is in. Best feeling in the world!!!! Yes?

 

And the wheel spins on and on........

[steve46 12]

This might help some folks to understand the significance of discipline

 

My system requires that the operator follow some basic rules

 

At the start of class I indicate to students that the most important thing they can learn from me, is risk management.....because these are smart folks, all of whom have a history of previous success in business, they actually listen....BUT they still need to see what I am talking about....and this last Friday we had what professional educators call a "teachable moment".....

 

After an early selloff, price hovered around my lower "Pivot" (the dark blue bar just below price in the attached chart). The first "test" of that dark blue pivot occurred at 8:45 am PST, however price did not "take out" (close below) the pivot....instead it bounced....and on a close above the pivot, traders were free to take a long IF they wanted to....

 

Later in the session at 10:18am PST, price came back down to test and close below that blue pivot...and shorty after 10:30am PST I entered short position getting filled at 2674.75 with a 2 point stoploss...

 

For the next 18 minutes I watched as students (some of whom had also elected to take a short) fidgeted, and one by one took themselves out of the trade.......NOT ONE of them was able to stay in the trade EVEN THOUGH PRICE NEVER TOUCHED THE 2 POINT STOP..

 

Twenty-one (21) minutes later price moved lower, and did not retest that entry point....favorable excursion down to our target area at 2650 where we exited the trade.

 

At the close of session, I asked each person to write (in their journal) their reason(s) for exiting the position early.....every one of them said the same thing....they thought the trade was going to be a loser RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING and they wanted to save a few bucks by closing it out before the two (2) point stop was hit......:doh:

 

My comment was as follows....IF you follow the system rules....the SYSTEM will take care of you.....yes you will take losses.....and at some point you surely will have runs of consecutive wins AND losses....that is the nature of a system based on a mathematical (statistical) edge....however if you CHANGE the system by inserting your emotional response....you are randomizing the result...and negating your edge....and it is likely that your final result will be due to random chance....and one last thing.....no matter what system you trade...if you have an edge.....and you have tested all the components (including the size of the stoploss) as we have......don't change anything during the trading day.....the only time you can make changes is at the end of specific time periods when you are evaluating your results....

 

In terms of everyday trading, if you really want to do this and make money you have to have the understanding of what a successful system is....and you have to be willing to put that understanding on the line by committing to disciplined execution of the system rules....practically speaking, when you enter a trade, you have to be willing to take a loss....a full...complete stop out and then simply go on to the next trade.....you can't decide well I THINK this one going to be a loser and I'll save myself a few ticks by getting out right here....

 

This is one example of the critical role that discipline plays in trading success.

 

Good luck folks

Edited November 4, 2012 by steve46

[James Farr 10]

Discipline is one part of trading that a trader must have to succeed.

A trader needs three things to start out with, A PLAN that they have CONFIDENCE in and the DISCIPLINE to trade the plan.

There fore allowing the trader to collect the data needed to improve.

[MightyMouse 12]

In boxing there is the disciplined boxer who keeps his hands up at all times as 'all" disciplined boxers do, and then you have Muhammed Ali who almost never did it. Who wins:discipline or intuition. Just a thought.

And the wheel spins on and on........

 

 

Ali et al would leave their guards down to provide a target and lure opponents into trying to hit them which would make open up the opponent's target. The best knew they were fast, agile and confident enough to use such a ploy. Ali, specifically, late in his career used the "rope-a-dope" ploy which was a kin to him playing possum against the ropes which encouraged boxers to punch themselves to exhaustion. This strategy was particularly useful against boxers who he knew were more powerful than him and who would not last long. So, Ali did keep his guard up all the time until he detected fatigue in the other boxer. It was awesome. You next Vince. You next Vince.

[SIUYA 11]

rope a dope...from Wikipedia....Rumble in the jungle a great story....

 

"After several rounds of this, he began to tire. His face became increasingly damaged by hard, fast jabs and crosses by Ali. The effects were visible as Foreman was staggered by an Ali combination at the start of the fourth round and again several times near the end of the fifth, after Foreman had seemed to dominate that round. Although he kept throwing punches and coming forward, after the fifth round Foreman looked increasingly worn out. Ali continued to taunt him by saying "They told me you could punch, George!" and "They told me you could punch as hard as Joe Louis."

According to Foreman, near the end of the fight, Foreman slammed Ali with a thundering body blow, and Ali whispered to him "Is that all you got, George?" to which Foreman thought "Yep...that's about it." After that, Ali began to dominate Foreman."

 

I loved that last part, and if anything you should learn - context and strategy - learning when to apply different strategies.......

[Vince50 10]

I was simply making a point that some people break all the rules and become #1 because it "fits" them better. And also that a good trainer doesnt force his trainees to do things even if they are supposedly written in stone. For me...all the trading psychology advice I read doesnt sound right to me. Caused me too much stress and put me into overwhelm. Something is missing. But........ I apologize. I guess I should not have used a boxing analogy with trading. THE END! =)

[SIUYA 11]

i think any analogy can be used if it clicks with you Vince, or with others.

 

Plus I read the boxing one slightly differently with Ali.....he applied a strategy to suit the situation. He had done the homework, the hard work and then did not chop and change md way. Then he stuck with it, and basically thats why i love that quote....

"Is that all you got, George?" to which Foreman thought "Yep...that's about it." After that, Ali began to dominate Foreman."

 

Now, letting the market beat you to a pulp first might not be advisable, plus markets dont have ten rounds, bells, and endings......, but for some that is what it takes.

[Savant 10]

Hehe this was nicely put...

[zdo 20]

I personally came up via the standard habituation to edges and extinction of maladaptive bhvrs model. I saw through the ‘d’ trap faster than most – but still stayed in this whole ‘discipline’ muck way too long…

 

Discipline is NOT enough to succeed! It is far from enough!

 

Very generally, ie in most instances ... (example: like most of the members of Steve’s class as a sample at http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-psychology/14467-discipline-enough-succeed-7.html#post165446 – …and, btw, not picking on you Steve46 – bcse what you’re putting them through is a necessary stage – but to help those who see through a little bit and really want to overcome the confirmation biases so rampant in trading pop psychology ( even among those who don’t ‘believe’ in or ‘need’ any trading psychology.))

... anyways to start again...

Very generally, ‘Trading Psychology’ is a trap! “All you need is ‘Discipline’’ is a trap! ‘Trading with discipline’ does not accurately describe reality any better than the freakn economic models accurately describe economies! I’ve seen classes like Steve’s. Sometimes it looks like the whole class gets it… sometimes most of them apparently get it… and sometimes only a few --- but the painful fkn reality is that none of them really ‘get it’… after they leave. The sympathetic nervous system is not availed the information to differentiate between true physical threat and false symbolic threat. Taking ‘discipline’ home with them ( or back to their office, in the case of his classes) will not train them to detect CNS fatigue (not muscular fatigue, like in the boxing examples , but with similar, more subtle, dynamics that are much more difficult to detect real time), etc, etc.

NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY HAVE CONSCIOUSLY COME TO BELIEVE IN THE ODDS OF THEIR EDGE – they are no where near ready to avert tanking(like Ali did in first Spinks fight), turning negative / losing confidence, choking (like Foreman did in the examples just above). These are distinct traps that the students will not be able to cope with consistently. Their managers, not the students, will vigorously have to intervene and prevent consequent mistakes and losses.

Conscious application of ‘discipline’ will not prevent a trader from going into sympathetic arousal.

By the time a trader needs to apply ‘discipline’ to follow the system / stick with the plan, he is a already in sympathetic arousal.

Discipline will not really help one effectively cope while in sympathetic arousal – ie long term, reliance on ‘d’ is counterproductive in developing skills to recover back underneath sympathetic arousal threshold …

And most importantly, the “DISCIPLINE to trade the plan” as discussed over and over over and over in trading forums contributes to forming even less adaptive ‘structures’ for future challenges… leading to bound flow

[SIUYA 11]

The sympathetic nervous system is not availed the information to differentiate between true physical threat and false symbolic threat. ....................

 

NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY HAVE CONSCIOUSLY COME TO BELIEVE IN THE ODDS OF THEIR EDGE – they are no where near ready to avert tanking(like Ali did in first Spinks fight), turning negative / losing confidence, choking (like Foreman did in the examples just above). These are distinct traps that the students will not be able to cope with consistently. Their managers, not the students, will vigorously have to intervene and prevent consequent mistakes and losses.

Conscious application of ‘discipline’ will not prevent a trader from going into sympathetic arousal.

 

Zdo...my post #48 talked about two books i read...

 

Switch - How to change things when change is hard - Chip Heath and Dan Heath

they referenced and use the elephant and rider idea from

The Happiness Hypothesis - Jonathan Haidt .....in it he talks about the 'elephant (emotions) and the rider (rational thought)',

.....but I did not read that.....one for the future.

 

A question(s) for you.....have you read these or seen the 'rider (rational) elephant (emotional)' description referred to?

if so - is this kinda of what you are talking about?

if not - I think this is kinda what you are talking about....

 

If this is kinda what you are talking about - I think I finally understand about 90% of you posts now. If not then I am still lost but interested

[johnw 10]

........................................

Very generally, ‘Trading Psychology’ is a trap! “All you need is ‘Discipline’’ is a trap! ..........................................

 

gm zdo,

 

You are right on the money with this one zdo ... the ingredient for trading (and life for that matter) is 'clarity' and clarity is borne of freedom ... traps are the mortal enemy of freedom

 

The beauty of trading is that it spanks the Trader every time the Trader feels that the trade is not going his way.

Eventually he either gives up or learns that he must follow The Price through the process of surrendering his own ego .... this is the beginning of clarity ... this is the beginning of The Trader learning to observe and remember

 

As for The Elephant and The Rider I wondered how long it would take for Buddha and Eastern thoughts to appear over the horizon on this thread.

It is a good analogy only if you want it to be, but be very careful by accepting it at face value since the Rider appears to be facing daunting odds.

Why not shrink The Elephant and Increase The Rider and have The Rider walking alongside The Elephant in complete harmony .... doesn't that make you feel better already.

 

Have you studied the 13 chapters of Sun Tzu concerning the evils of war.

He begins by saying that war should be avoided whenever possible and if prosecuted it should be short and quick, since everyone losses to some extent or another.

Obviously, someone is not paying attention 2,500 years later in the 21st Century.

 

All this information is freely available and can assist The Trader enormously, if applied in careful doses ... not too much and not too little.

[SIUYA 11]

gm zdo,

 

As for The Elephant and The Rider I wondered how long it would take for Buddha and Eastern thoughts to appear over the horizon on this thread.

 

 

ahhhh....this is the point that is missed and why i asked. It has ZERO to do with eastern philosophy at all. Thats why i quoted the books.

It is more about a description about how the left brain right brain/emotional and rational sides of the brain work - or the latest theories, and this is a great visual to imagine why it is difficult to changes habits, bend emotions, and control one self.....

 

In brief - the rider is the rational side. It is trying to control the elephant the emotional side.

Basically - this is going to be hard to do as the elephant is far bigger, has different motivations to the rider and the rider is quickly exhausted (discipline (and self control) is rapidly exhausted as shown through studies) (hence the idea Zdo is getting at (I think) - that if you need to revert back to discipline all the time you are stuffed - as it will exhaust you).....

the analogy works as the rider is small the elephant large - but with the right incentives the rider can direct the elephant quite easily.....blah blah blah....

 

nothing to do with eastern philosophies - but the book is worth a read, and for me - as I am a simple fellow - it struck a light on for what a lot of others may be (maybe I am wrong here) often talk about in similar veins.

Its more about incentives, behaviour changes and core beliefs not about discipline.

 

The book gives some examples of how quickly results can be acheived with simple changes that have nothing to do with discipline, punishments or incentives even.

[johnw 10]

ahhhh....this is the point that is missed and why i asked. It has ZERO to do with eastern philosophy at all. Thats why i quoted the books.

.

 

The chapter is based on Buddha's metaphor The Elephant and The Rider

Edited November 6, 2012 by johnw

[MightyMouse 12]

Suddenly I am craving sushi.

[SIUYA 11]

The chapter is based on Buddha's metaphor The Elephant and The Rider

 

sorry - you are correct, thanks for pointing this out....., but in the context he is talking about it is a great way to describe it without worrying about any reference to Eastern philosophies..... mind you if that works then thats fine.

More as a visual for how to imagine your rational side might struggle controlling your emotional side.

You dont need to have any reference to Eastern philosophies to be able to picture it - at least i dont . .....and I think bringing in these often confuses, or alienates some as 'more mumbo jumbo'

 

Maybe its just me and i react well to visuals. (plus introducing Eastern ideas with Zdos ramblings woould also confuse even more )

 

Regardless - I referenced more the book Switch - How to change things when change is hard - Chip Heath and Dan Heath, rather than the original, which I do want read.....as Trading is maybe not so much about happiness - or is it?

 

(at least MM is thinking sushi and not elephant burgers)

[johnw 10]

sorry - you are correct, thanks for pointing this out....., but in the context he is talking about it is a great way to describe it without worrying about any reference to Eastern philosophies..... mind you if that works then thats fine.

More as a visual for how to imagine your rational side might struggle controlling your emotional side.

You dont need to have any reference to Eastern philosophies to be able to picture it - at least i dont . .....and I think bringing in these often confuses, or alienates some as 'more mumbo jumbo'

 

Maybe its just me and i react well to visuals. (plus introducing Eastern ideas with Zdos ramblings woould also confuse even more )

 

Regardless - I referenced more the book Switch - How to change things when change is hard - Chip Heath and Dan Heath, rather than the original, which I do want read.....as Trading is maybe not so much about happiness - or is it?

 

(at least MM is thinking sushi and not elephant burgers)

 

It is funny how we are all different ..I have followed the Eastern approach because it suits me and makes sense, and I found the western approach to be too biased towards the rational understanding of the emotional side.

 

In the end, all Romes point to Rome.... to put it another way ...it doesn't matter how you skin the cat just so long as you wind up with a bald pussy.

[zdo 20]

Zdo...my post #48 talked about two books i read...

 

Switch - How to change things when change is hard - Chip Heath and Dan Heath

they referenced and use the elephant and rider idea from

The Happiness Hypothesis - Jonathan Haidt .....in it he talks about the 'elephant (emotions) and the rider (rational thought)',

.....but I did not read that.....one for the future.

 

A question(s) for you.....have you read these or seen the 'rider (rational) elephant (emotional)' description referred to?

if so - is this kinda of what you are talking about?

if not - I think this is kinda what you are talking about....

 

If this is kinda what you are talking about - I think I finally understand about 90% of you posts now. If not then I am still lost but interested

 

SUIYA,

No, unfortunately I have not read the book Switch yet… will add it to my list.

 

I have seen similar references to 'rider (rational) elephant (emotional)' … and since it is a ‘budha’ story I would have to question ‘who’ the rider and elephant was in the original before being able to comment much beyond… over time in my own world, the moorings to hemispheric constructs have been eroded and jerked out, etc. … also, I tend to have immediate issues and start looking for the unstated, mediating ‘axis’ shortly after such dualities are presented.

 

So, to answer your questions, SUIYA – I can’t be sure I’m talking precisely about the same thing …

it’s all related… …limits of language etc.

--------yes - “kinda” would be safe... kinda little bit not much maybe:roll eyes:

 

“The enemy is denial” Dave Grossman. In mainstream pop trading psych. ‘discipline’ gets big time emphasis, but in the path I’m on it is a capacity that should only be called upon a couple times a month…so in this thread I’m really talking in the backwaters. The larger topics / contexts are much more important.

And within those confines, my point in this thread is simple –

disproportionate ‘discipline’ reinforces dysfunction.

 

...

 

~3 in a 100 will drop the pop crap and really go for effortless high performance…they really get it that the pressures to perform NEVER dissipates, but that paradoxically, performance cannot be forced…

along those lines...

(while maybe it’s not part of the story you’re referring to) sadly, the real potentials of the ‘elephant’ can also be significantly restricted by the desires and tricks of the fkn ‘man’...

(and, no, johnw - "shrink The Elephant and Increase The Rider " doesn't make me feel better already )

 

But, whether he is talking about the 'story' or not, johnw’s pointing to ‘clarity’, etc. could stand more personal exploration by the few who are committed to these ways...

I use the term ‘flow’ for the experience (and be careful of limiting your exploration to the rather narrow, mental, Csikszentmihaly, pop, et al, utilization of the term)

 

...

[SIUYA 11]

SUIYA,

And within those confines, my point in this thread is simple –

disproportionate ‘discipline’ reinforces dysfunction.

 

...

 

~3 in a 100 will drop the pop crap and really go for effortless high performance…they really get it that the pressures to perform NEVER dissipates, but that paradoxically, performance cannot be forced…

 

I think its a similar thought process, and as johnW says - each might find the same solution from a different path.....'find your own way' right zdo.

 

along those lines...

(while maybe it’s not part of the story you’re referring to) sadly, the real potentials of the ‘elephant’ can also be significantly restricted by the desires and tricks of the fkn ‘man’...

(and, no, johnw - "shrink The Elephant and Increase The Rider " doesn't make me feel better already )

 

But, whether he is talking about the 'story' or not, johnw’s pointing to ‘clarity’, etc. could stand more personal exploration by the few who are committed to these ways...

I use the term ‘flow’ for the experience (and be careful of limiting your exploration to the rather narrow, mental, Csikszentmihaly, pop, et al, utilization of the term)

...

 

while i would be inclined to agree with you zdo - you dont want to restrict yourself, the issue for many is the elephant running wild in the first place - little steps maybe.

 

Its more about behavioural tricks not to reduce the elephant but to have it do what the rider wants while still exercising all the benefits (of normal behavior).

This should not be a task and a chore or exhausting for either rider or elephant, and so the discipline would not really be needed very often as you say, but should rarely be called on as the elephant is doing what it does naturally - its the small tweaks that can best help this......for me it might be best described as working out how to do more of what you do best, and less of what you do poorly.....because this is the most natural for you.

thanks.

[Vince50 10]

First of all, there is a big difference in discipline. Are we talking about having the discipline to always get up early enough in the morning to properly prepare yourself, always leaving extra time for unseem problems or thoughts to be dealt with. That is the kind we all need.

 

But discipline to keep following the same trading routine no matter how it does, and even if you are winning you keep folowing it though you now cant sleep anymore and it makes you a nervous wreck, thats not good discipline.

 

Discipline is good if it keeps you on the "right" course. But discipline in any art can often lead to "rigidity." I knew open minded traders that as soon as they found Elliot Waves or moving average systems, never ever explored anything new again.. And the software sellers are just waiting for people who dont know how to change their mind. No disrespect but, Im still waiting for one, just one Elliot Wave trader who ever made a living at the markets....with consistantly. Now why should we elliott traders carer. After all, if RN elliott himself never got rich with his own system, why should we bother with little "details" like that. LOL

[johnw 10]

[quote name=zdo

' date=' johnw - "shrink The Elephant and Increase The Rider " doesn't make me feel better already )

...[/quote]

 

that is a pity because The Elephant and The Rider do not exist other than in the Reader's perception ... it is a metaphor.

 

And so, if you choose to change the relationship of emotions and rational to a point more closely resembling balance then you will need to address the issue of The Elephant and The Rider along with all the other issues that were in play before Buddha made his dramatic entrance into your life.

 

Which brings us to the point of adding to a problem whilst we are trying to address it.

This in turn brings us right back to trading where so many People think (assume) that adding more information will reduce the risk in trading, which in turn will lead to bigger profits ... they could not be more wrong if they tried.... they have missed the point completely, but still they push on.

 

And that brings us back to clarity which leads to freedom and it's running mate balance

 

To say that we humans struggle with balance would be the mother of all understatements.

No wonder we have so much trouble with clarity

[zdo 20]

johnw - "shrink The Elephant and Increase The Rider " doesn't make me feel better already

 

translation is

johnw - "shrink The Elephant and Increase The Rider " doesn't make me feel better already ;wink

 

Beyond what I've heard in here, I don't know that story and I don't understand the metaphor for sure...plus the Twitch authors could have been using it differently from the way bodhi was using it. etc etc.

... and personally, my daddy was from the bud side of the mountain and my mama was from the tao side ... so while making the man bigger might be ok, some severe reservations wei wi up when we start talking about shrinking an elephant...

(btw, that's a :smile for our emoticon challenged friends herein)

 

 

...

 

Can you describe people balance a little bit more (maybe best in a new thread) Thanks.