Is Discipline Enough to Succeed?

zdo · October 16, 2012

bump

fwiw ... asking sincere, not frivolous, questions ...

steve46 · October 16, 2012

You want a sincere answer...here it is

Persistence without the pre-requisite skills, without direction, and disciplined application of valid principles won't amount to anything....there's just to many obstacles in the way....to many smart people reaching for the brass ring....its all very romantic (thinking that persistance will win "in the end"), the hard truth is that if you don't have what it takes, you lose.....no matter how persistent (I call it masochistic) you are....

Its really not that difficut...if you want to win this game, find someone who IS winning and get them to show you how its done..."do it yourselfers" simply don't get very far in this profession...

Done for the day...

Best to all.

johnw · October 16, 2012

Is Persistence Enough to Succeed?

Well, let us attach persistence to your belief to succeed at making good consistent money from the markets.

The first river to cross is to ask your self "Am I prepared to do whatever is required"

If your passionate response is YES then you will succeed.

During the planing of your assault and success over the markets, one of the questions you will ask of yourself is "will I involve Steve46 or will I involve other people in my quest to win.

If you begin with a belief and therefore remove all limitations over your thoughts and consequently your actions, you will not fail.

My suggestion is to always start with a simple belief which will then lead you into questions which leads you into research and then into planing and finally you take action.

Be prepared to change everything from yourself to the usual use of words.

Accept nothing until it is proven to your satisfaction.

Start no action until you are assured of the outcome.

Be persistent in your pursuit of your beliefs and you will not fail.

Eddie Z · October 16, 2012

This is probably a question which is more broadly applicable than to just trading and it would probably be helpful to hear from those well versed in current (not always necessarily correct though) views in the field of psychology. Is it enough to be just very disciplined at something in order to become successful at it whilst not having bucket loads of natural ability and possibly more importantly, the passion for it? I would note that by success I mean replicable positive results, not necessarily be at the very top of the tree so to speak.

My feeling is it depends. Probably a great deal on the type of guidance the individual receives. I think that natural ability is only fulfilled with discipline. Clearly therefore, there will be some individuals with very little need for external influence to experience some degree of success. Yet there will be some who are extremely disciplined who lack the flair and intuition (or whatever you want to call it but please, that's a different thread!) to know what they should be doing and there are those who have the flair and so on but not the discipline. How important do you consider each factor?

I think discipline is a HUGE factor in trading. Obviously knowing and mastering a system is a must but no system without discipline can really work. So I will definetely say that discipline is extremely important to become succesful in trading. The markets have no mercy so it is up to the trader to recognize this and act accordingly. This can only be accomplished with rules and discipline.

ForexTraderX · October 17, 2012

I think discipline is a HUGE factor in trading. Obviously knowing and mastering a system is a must but no system without discipline can really work. So I will definetely say that discipline is extremely important to become succesful in trading. The markets have no mercy so it is up to the trader to recognize this and act accordingly. This can only be accomplished with rules and discipline.

Eddie, I'm gonna use your statement here to pose an alternative viewpoint on "discipline" with regards to trading.

Let me pose the following analogies: If you leave your house, and walk outside to a busy street... does it take discipline to wait for the cars to stop rushing by before you try to cross the street?

How about when your cutting vegetables to prepare them for a dinner. Does it take discipline to not cut your hand with the knife?

Now, I'll grant you that these are highly imperfect analogies.... as with cars and knives, our 5 senses can literally see the potential risk or danger in a very physical, tangible sense. In the market, we generally must imagine in the abstract the relative danger (we do get some tangible, visible indications of danger or opportunity, but these are to a much lesser degree than watching cars rush by on a busy street)... but over all, once a person has an idea of how markets work, and how to properly evaluate various opportunities that they provide, it does become much more like waiting for cars to stop before crossing a busy street... rather than some deep, internal well of fortitude to resist the urge to jump out into the street (or market, as the case may be) before the cars have stopped speeding by.

Of course everyone's method is a different, but I believe my point still stands.

Now, a person DOES need discipline to a degree in determining appropriate bet sizing, as well as taking a loss (because identifying high probability opportunities in the markets is not as simple or obvious or accurate as high probability opportunities to safely cross a busy street)... and also some patience to wait for the right moment to enter or exit a market... but, discipline in the traditional sense... I'm not really sure what that means exactly anymore.

When lighting a fireplace, I don't need discipline to avoid burning myself with a match. I don't need discipline to wait for the cars. And when seizing on a trading opportunity, I don't need discipline to avoid trading with conflicting signals, or to keep my order away from entering the market in the middle of a low liquidity "gap" situations, or to trade against an obvious and significant bearish or bullish engulfing candle that occurs at a previous mulit-month high or low. I just need to know how markets work in general, and what the sigificance is of various patterns, price action, and price levels, market sentiment, etc... are in the marketplace.

FTX

ForexTraderX · October 17, 2012

As a follow up point to the above post.... the real reason why I don't need "discipline" to avoid some of the problematic situations in the markets that I outlined above... is because once a person has a good understanding of how markets work, why, and what is influencing any given market at a particular moment...etc...

when those things are known (or at least understood and taken into consideration)... one doesn't need discipline as much as it just becomes common sense: it becomes something like:

"no stupid, don't go buying after an 11 day, 1000 pip rally into a previous yearly high after price has made a significant bearish reversal candle on the daily charts, but has not fallen even half way to the closest likely significant support level...which wouldn't even be a 15% retracement of the move if it did hit that support level."

I know this may be a very obvious situation, and not all are this obvoius, but, this is the basic thought process that I personally experience. Or even something like:

"ya know, if half the reasons you see say price may go up, and the other half say it may go down, it's pretty stupid to try to pick a direction now... so lets not do that"

Anyway, I would be interested to see what you or others have to say regarding my 2 posts right here....

FTX

TheNegotiator · October 17, 2012

I believe that the insights which psychologists can give us into ourselves can be extremely useful but also at times misleading. The thing is, to be successful at trading it takes a certain practical approach. Yes there should be introspective self-analysis. However, without discipline we won't succeed. If you decide to change something in your trading approach, it won't happen automatically overnight. You must work on it until it does become natural to you and this is where self-discipline comes in. Also, there will always be new situations encountered which we haven't psychologically prepared for. Study yourself in order to understand when stresses come in and create a routine to mitigate such circumstances, but then work on discipline in order to generate consistency of considered action. Not just on any one trade but for all your efforts in the business.

Its really not that difficut...if you want to win this game, find someone who IS winning and get them to show you how its done..."do it yourselfers" simply don't get very far in this profession...

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: first, by reflection, which is noblest; second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third, by experience, which is the most bitter.”

Confucius - a smart dude.

TheNegotiator · October 17, 2012

When lighting a fireplace, I don't need discipline to avoid burning myself with a match. I don't need discipline to wait for the cars.

When you were a kid, did your parents or someone older than you like a teacher for example tell you to not run across the road, to look right and left and then right again? Did they tell you to not play with matches? Did you get into trouble if you didn't adhere to these rules? You don't need discipline once you are there, but to get to a point where your actions are automatic, my feeling is that you do.

johnw · October 17, 2012

This thread makes people think ... some people are stretched by this thread and some consider the posts they read and prefer to remain the same.

Either way, it is a good thread and this is reflected in the civility of the posts...

perhaps we are all too 'disciplined' to act otherwise.

To me, discipline remains a crutch at best, but the advantage of walking with the assistance of a crutch

is that you are aware at all times that you must lose the crutch at some stage and recover your ability to walk and run.

It all depends on how high you wish to set the bar.

The good news is what ever we do is only with us for a lifetime ...so how important is that.

Perhaps a new thread with the same level of thoughtfulness and civility might begin to unravel the mystery of why less than 1% of Retail Accounts survive the first year.

DbPhoenix · October 17, 2012

Perhaps a new thread with the same level of thoughtfulness and civility might begin to unravel the mystery of why less than 1% of Retail Accounts survive the first year.

With no intention of being discouraging, this particular topic has been done to death, yet little to no impression is made. The current three-part Pristine series provides a nice summary (simplicity, focus, planning and discipline), but because P is a vendor, anything said is automatically suspect, and the series is largely ignored, which is a shame.

Why so few beginners survive is not a mystery and hasn't been for many years. The real mystery is why none of them will lift a finger to save themselves. But whatever answers are arrived at could be applied just as appropriately to any form of addiction.

As to this particular thread and other threads like it, I understand the reason for their existence, but they all skirt the real issue before inevitability arriving back at it: all the discipline and persistence in the world will not enable a beginner to succeed when he's trying to apply a poorly-thought-out, poorly executed trading plan (if he has one at all) that is only marginally -- if that -- profitable. It is unlikely that a failing freshman entrepreneur -- trader or otherwise -- will be able to rectify his own ignorance, laziness, and stupidity all by himself. Unfortunately, most of those who claim to be willing and able to help him will only make things worse.

Yesterday in chat that quote about winning traders was brought up, the one about winning traders winning because they do what winning traders do, i.e., what it takes to win, whereas losing traders don't. That seems to be it, in a nutshell.

Db

zdo · October 17, 2012

You want a sincere answer...here it is

...

Thanks Steve46, but my questions were going back to posts made by Negotiator (and goodoboy and …) about how they are defining / using the ‘discipline’ word…I should have clarified that… nonetheless good post.

One point of disagreement with your thinking: It has been my experience that the preponderance of the small sample of those who do survive and thrive are in fact what you’re calling "do it yourselfers" at their core… (and, secondarily, they are also simultaneously open enough to seek teaching help, and guidance, when necessary)

… and that in the whole of the sample I’ve been exposed to, I’ve discovered that no amount of “find someone who IS winning and get them to show you how its done” will save 80% of those who initially choose that route. It's partly because, as DBP just posted, “Unfortunately, most of those who claim to be willing and able to help him will only make things worse.”. But much more importantly, as I have previously pounded on many times, a trader who learns methods and even internal skills that are not compatible with his true self typically ends not in failure but in the fade away (and btw - fade away' s are a part of the failure 'stats')

(Note: generally - I’m talking about independent traders, while it seems you are primarily focused on teaching ways to succeed as an employee for a firm. Yours is a valuable perspective to add into the trading forum mix and I’m glad you contribute on TL.)

steve46 · October 17, 2012

Thanks Steve46, but my questions were going back to posts made by Negotiator (and goodoboy and …) about how they are defining / using the ‘discipline’ word…I should have clarified that… nonetheless good post.

One point of disagreement with your thinking: It has been my experience that the preponderance of the small sample of those who do survive and thrive are in fact what you’re calling "do it yourselfers" at their core… (and, secondarily, they are also simultaneously open enough to seek teaching help, and guidance, when necessary)

… and that in the whole of the sample I’ve been exposed to, I’ve discovered that no amount of “find someone who IS winning and get them to show you how its done” will save 80% of those who initially choose that route. It's partly because, as DBP just posted, “Unfortunately, most of those who claim to be willing and able to help him will only make things worse.”. But much more importantly, as I have previously pounded on many times, a trader who learns methods and even internal skills that are not compatible with his true self typically ends not in failure but in the fade away (and btw - fade away' s are a part of the failure 'stats')

(Note: generally - I’m talking about independent traders, while it seems you are primarily focused on teaching ways to succeed as an employee for a firm. Yours is a valuable perspective to add into the trading forum mix and I’m glad you contribute on TL.)

Okay so one small additional comment....

My "focus" is on helping struggling traders to find financial independence....realistically no one here could qualify as a trader at a top tier banking firm...thats not going to happen....so the next best thing (and from my point of view, its not a compromise at all)...is to show just a few (adult) folks how to win this game...I've only taught a few folks, but in this economy, I can tell you that it made a big difference in their lives...

As to vendors "making it worse"...absolutely agree.....the idea that a system has to "fit" each person however is problematic...in fact my opinion has changed dramatically about this...throughout life, there are opportunities for each of us....things that we COULD do that might benefit us, but in order to realize those benefits, WE have to change, adapt, learn, and act....it ain't coming to us on a platter....its not like someone measuring you for a suit......you have to make the changes necessary to obtain the benefit...or someone else will, and you will be talking about how you never found what your were looking for.

zdo I appreciate your contribution as well as the opportunity to clarify my position

zdo · October 17, 2012

Okay so one small additional comment....

My "focus" is on helping struggling traders to find financial independence....realistically no one here could qualify as a trader at a top tier banking firm...thats not going to happen....so the next best thing (and from my point of view, its not a compromise at all)...is to show just a few (adult) folks how to win this game...I've only taught a few folks, but in this economy, I can tell you that it made a big difference in their lives...

As to vendors "making it worse"...absolutely agree.....the idea that a system has to "fit" each person however is problematic...in fact my opinion has changed dramatically about this...throughout life, there are opportunities for each of us....things that we COULD do that might benefit us, but in order to realize those benefits, WE have to change, adapt, learn, and act....it ain't coming to us on a platter....its not like someone measuring you for a suit......you have to make the changes necessary to obtain the benefit...or someone else will, and you will be talking about how you never found what your were looking for.

zdo I appreciate your contribution as well as the opportunity to clarify my position

Steve46, I understand but I daresay that even in these tough economic times if we were privy to how it unfolds, many of those you are using as examples ultimately become ‘faders away’ . I have just seen it too many times. .. (and I’ve know too many guys who are brighter and more talented than me who don’t stick because they never really get self and method aligned, etc etc.)

and…was not in any way implying that it’s “coming to us on a platter” ! On the contrary, the ‘find your own way’ traders I’m talking about typically have to deepen several more levels of toughness than the ‘found someone who will teach me to be profitable’ types. …and are required to ‘change’ more profoundly than the ‘teach me’ trading students ever do!

And I’m going by numbers when I make these claims. Maybe our differing conclusion are from evidence diverging by pure chance, (or maybe you attract more conformists than I do ) . My sample is comprised of about 2000 developing traders I have been exposed to close enough to develop some insight into their processes and p/l's– ~ half as a broker with a book, and the other half as a fellow broker, as a trading trainee, as a trainer/vendor, as a firm principle and employer, as a fund manager with clients who also traded their own money, etc. as a peer of all of the above and of traders, as a mentor, etc. ie It’s not just a sample of one.

But fwiw - my own case: In the early days, I had the episodic, but luckily sufficient, ‘discipline’ to stick to a way that was not my own – rather inflexible, seasonal trading. It was very profitable. I was extremely lucky ...

Also, I went through an extreme ‘search’ stage… spending more USD on training, systems, books, seminars – other ppl’s ways- than most … even more than many traders ever lose or make… we’re talking 6 figures…

But - windfall profits via someone else’s ways or not, and exposure to a multitude of others’ methods or not – ultimately I had to find my own way or get out of trading … much shorter term trading, developing MarketTyping, and developing a ‘portfolio’ of systems to exploit the MarketTyping ...

So again I will assert that from the whole of samples, most of the small percentage of those that survive and thrive do “find their own way” - a ‘way’ that is closely matched 1) to the representations of the auctions they perceive best, 2 ) to the way they mentally process things and 3) to the levels of stress they can ‘metabolize’ and 4)…

ForexTraderX · October 18, 2012

When you were a kid, did your parents or someone older than you like a teacher for example tell you to not run across the road, to look right and left and then right again? Did they tell you to not play with matches? Did you get into trouble if you didn't adhere to these rules? You don't need discipline once you are there, but to get to a point where your actions are automatic, my feeling is that you do.

Aright... I see what your saying Neg, and to a limited extent, I agree... but I still stand by my point of:

"if you understand how markets work and have a working mental model that you can effectively apply that knowledge of how markets work to your trading, then there really is very little 'discipline' involved"

It becomes more like... say you are visiting Miami beach in the summer time. You get to your hotel, and want to check out the ocean. You can choose anything you want to wear. It doesn't take discipline to avoid wearing thermal underwear and a heavy goose down coat. It just takes a working mental model of what a borderline tropical climate is like, and what the culture of miami beach is like in the summer, and no discipline is needed to choose the appropriate attire.

I will say this for discipline though: I do use it to a degree every day in terms of never risking more than I am emotionally able to lose. The analysis itself is just something quite "pure" to me at this stage of the game, its' just like reading a story (most of the time anyway), but when it comes to actually choosing how much to risk and how to manage or reduce that risk as the trade moves on... yea... that's NOT so clear cut. Because it's not based on an external, emperically relevent, data driven logic, but on a much more internal, subjective, "unknown" (the unknown being exactly how a loss of X% in a trade/day/week/etc will affect me when it happens)

So for this, it does take discipline... for me it's the form of an internal montoring, but I have to always remember to focus on that, and if it gets uncomfortable, have the discpline to ignore my more optimistic, hopeful mind, and just focus on doing what i need to in order to be comfortable with my risk. If I let this get away from me, I can destroy a month of work in an hour or two. And it IS discipline that enables me to keep vigilant of this.

But in trading analysis, identifying opportunities, determining what levels and how big of stops and targets...etc... it's more like understanding than it is about discipline, IMO (and in my own trading. others will differ here of course)

FTX

TheDude · October 18, 2012

why i cant i delete posts?

Edited October 18, 2012 by TheDude

MightyMouse · October 18, 2012

The biggest thing that held me back was more to do with impulse or false intuition (for want of a better word) taking over. In other words, greed - or fear of missing out. That was what made me break my discipline/plan etc.

Before the screen I came from a trading environment where I was obliged to make a quote and trade upon request. So I'd quote accordingly. This may be why I had such difficulty keeping my discipline or being patient. If I felt the sniff of a trade, I would. I was so used to doing so.

I only overcame my greed, by reverting to what I used to do - when I wanted to trade, putting quotes in where Id be willing to trade. When I realised Id rather pay way below there the market was trading, I realised I shouldnt be trading at these prices - and Id wait for them to come to me.

Its always worth bearing in mind you only need to make a 5-10 ticks per day consistently to be extremely profitable when you add size and know how to trade in size. Thats discipline - being content with less.

Then theres false discipline. Having the discipline to do something - although its the wrong thing to do. Some people think trading 2-3% of your account is being disciplined. Not when you know what your doing - Id say its false discipline. If you are disciplined to only risk 2% when your consistent, you'll never make it.

The false hoods that abound the industry are quite amazing. If one has the discipline to follow all one reads, that discipline will hold one back - for sure.

It sounds like you were making a market. If so, then you had a built in advantage/edge that few can enjoy. Risking only 2-3 % in that was would be foolish. Trading electronically removes that advantage. With certain types of trading, risking 2-3% without the market makers advantage could be disastrous.

I do agree there are lots and lots of falsehoods.

TheDude · October 19, 2012

It sounds like you were making a market. If so, then you had a built in advantage/edge that few can enjoy. Risking only 2-3 % in that was would be foolish. Trading electronically removes that advantage. With certain types of trading, risking 2-3% without the market makers advantage could be disastrous.

I do agree there are lots and lots of falsehoods.

I deleted the post as I didnt want the thread to go off on a tangent...

but yes I was a market maker. I had a position limit, but I never ever came across the idea of 2-3% until I became a retail trader. The 2% comes from asset management where one has a hugely diversified portfolio - so its not even related to day trading

When consistent, 2-3 % is still foolish though.

One needs discipline to think for themselves rather than be gullible and do what ever one reads.

Discipline is so much more than the ability to follow a 'trading plan'.

I think the myth of TA 'pattrens' leads people to think they have discipline issues because in hindsight they may see a trade wasnt ideal, but failed to in the heat of the moment. The fact is, they are only human, and not necessarily deficient in discipline. Rather its TA/ a false base that is their problem.

I know a few half good traders who do far too much coke, and drink way too much. I wouldnt exactly say they are well disciplined, yet they make good coin consistently.

MightyMouse · October 19, 2012

.

I know a few half good traders who do far too much coke, and drink way too much. I wouldnt exactly say they are well disciplined, yet they make good coin consistently.