Truisms - NOT!

[zdo 20]

I used that KISS ‘word’ over in the ‘non optimization myth’ thread earlier today and it got me thinking…

Then, noticing the 'mass hypnotism' in two thread titles (not the content in the threads, btw)

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-markets/14132-kiss.html

and

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/tech-analysis/14111-bringing-common-sense-trading-3.html

fed the fire.

 

…since I don’t have serious arguments with the real topic or the content of the OP or other posts in “Common Sense...” article; and since my intentions are to elicit diametrical departure from discussing the degrees of KISS in that thread … I’ll just start a separate thread instead of going over and trashing theirs

… and if anyone needs they can feel free to come trash this one

 

 

avoid “common” in trading

 

In the common sense thread , the OP seems to have largely thrown in the ole ‘truism’ just to add credibility and that’s accepted by most. But the use of the phrase in ‘selling’ the article is, imo, a disservice to developing traders. In the title, he paired "common sense" as an aid when those SR's do 'work', but what should "common sense" say when those SR's (or whatever) don't work? When was the last time you saw "common sense" call a mea culpa on itself ??

 

Quickly get away from ‘common’ or ‘sense’.. Common trading sense / Common sense trading will put you right smack dab in the middle of the pack! Run, noob, run!

Again, I appreciated the content of the opening post, and even ‘second the motion’ of the DBPh’s sentiments in post #22 ... but

The trigger was the ‘simplifying’, via truisms, in the titling..

 

 

 

 

the delusion of the kiss

 

As in quality physical training, consistently successful trading must progress from the simple to compound to complex.

Again, rephrased slightly - as with most all self directed performance work/play/behavior/w.e. where there is ANY level of pace at all, (trading included) even raw beginners must immediately leave ‘simple’ and include ‘compound’ and ‘complex’ and start moving all three towards unconscious competence. Right out the gate, in the ‘playing’ or ‘practicing’ or even ‘learning’ the movement towards the complex must begin and continue on incessantly - even though components and steps in the chain of a performance can be broken out and temporarily isolated and seemingly ( but not really! ) made simple.

But - To keep it simple is stupid.

Attempting to ‘keep’ it simple will take all but a few out of the game! *

 

One more time! Even for beginners, to simply build on Keep it simple IS stupid…. we were created / have evolved for increasing complexity… the humanness of markets is far from simple… no matter how much we may wish it were so or even act as if it is, staying ‘simple’ will NOT work…

 

…However, steady development is not the norm and should not be expected. Rather we must build in regressions. When we can’t sustain the complex, we need to (hopefully consciously) regress to the compound and when we can’t sustain the compound, then we need to regress to the simple. But, unless you are one of the tiny minority that can actually tolerate the truly simple systems *, then to even want to keep it simple is a futile, illusionary, waste of your energy.

 

 

 

 

the illusion of the simple

 

Any of us in performance work can produce an illusion of simplicity. Occasionally, we can and do make it look ‘simple’. We can even ultimately experience all three of the levels mentioned above as ‘simple’. Both looking it and (episodically) experiencing it as ‘simple’ is epitomized by the likes of LangLang, Michanangelo, Montana, Rice, Jordan, Federer, Tiger, etc etc. Those examples, and all the rest of us, though are actually always continuously pushing deeper into complexity and difficulty… moving the intersection of eustress further and further over towards complexity/ mastery

 

Bottom line: Beware - if you just KISS, you won’t get very far in this game. you will feed instead of being fed, etc etc.

 

 

 

For yourself - If you meet the truism on the road, see it for what it really is ! …

 

 

and now

the leap… (alternatives)

instead of ‘common sense’ and ‘kiss’

 

> Know what you want! Utilize honesty. It's liberating ... and, btw, that also means

… consider what you want independently of any consideration of process! ...and ...

… separate what you want from any questions of possibility!

 

> Then choose if you fully accept the unknown, but certainly high, levels of complexity and discomfort that are coming if you persist in creating what you want in trading…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* A few really really simple methods to trade successfully exist. By far the best example is pure (read that real) trend trading… but unless you are born to it being compatible with your true nature you will just not be able to sustain trading it exclusively

[SIUYA 11]

Trading certainly has complex aspects to it and thinking it is simple is definitely a mistake, maybe the idea might be better stated -

.....ensure any review has a focus on not making it unnecessarily complex if it does not need to be......or to KISS for those aspects where adding complexity adds nothing.....

 

for those areas where complexity is required - until it becomes second nature, then maybe rather than common sense, careful and deep thought is recommended. There is certainly nothing common in trading - for every buyer and reason to sell there is the opposite, and they all may be valid in their own rights.

 

as for other truisms - not! - i will think of some more I am sure.....

 

The only thing I can think that always make sense, is the only truth and while it is often forgotten in many other aspects of life - the only way to make money is to buy something at a lower price than you sell it at, otherwise....

 

There is nothing true in the markets - most things are strategy specific (thanks zdo)

and even hindsight often deceives.

 

(its late and I think common sense is telling me I have complicated this )

[Obsidian 10]

.....One more time! Even for beginners, to simply build on Keep it simple IS stupid…. we were created / have evolved for increasing complexity… the humanness of markets is far from simple… no matter how much we may wish it were so or even act as if it is, staying ‘simple’ will NOT work…

 

you should have used double size fonts for this part

[zdo 20]

In forums, show me a noob’s OP about an emergent or recently identified trading problem and if there’s not at least one post from a seasoned trader/poster rephrasing the extraordinary and simple necessity of ‘discipline’ then we can safely assume the OP was stoopid beyond any belief or credence.

 

? Maybe a Discipline! NOT! post is not needed. So before I go off on Discipline! NOT! , it would probably be a good idea to get clear what the best current consensus is of what ‘disciplined trading’ is.

??? What is ‘disciplined trading’?

??? What does it imply?

??? Can someone please summarize for us what all those posts are getting at ? thx

[SIUYA 11]

with - no plan, no tested plan that works, and no review and modification of those plans - discipline means nothing.

 

In an attempt to answer your questions......

 

What is ‘disciplined trading’?

 

applying a systemised recorded planned and tested approach repeatedly.

(Deviation from the mission statement is not to be tolerated and will result in extermination)

 

??? What does it imply?

 

it implies that this is a really crappy job that is largely industrialised, and yet not necessarily robotic and that doing nothing most of the time can actually be the best way to achieve something.

 

??? Can someone please summarize for us what all those posts are getting at ?

 

information compulsion

 

For me disciplined can also imply - being a tight arse, focused, money hungry, obsessively driven, methodical raving lunatic.

(for some strange reason this morning I was on you tude - and big brother kept showing me trading videos - all saying the same rubbish - it was somewhat depressin - while its all been said and done before and continually - its probably not the definitions that matter its the doing the steps that are important.

and just to throw in the obligatory analogy - Bit like saying to be a good race car driver you need to drive really fast (but before that you have to learn to drive, go up through the ranks, learn to survive, learn far more skills and then you can successfully drive fast)

 

(Side note - had a good day today - jobbed for a few small losses until 10:14 am - one good move - all out by 11:51 - watched an waited for anything extra - nothing else happened - but i was extemely disciplined, made money and feel very unsatisfied - cant wait for tomorrrow so i can go crazy and start punting wildly )

[wrbtrader 10]

What is ‘disciplined trading’?

 

What does it imply?

 

Some (not all) traders have a trading plan that they know is profitable when executed. These same traders also know that when they do not execute their trading plan...they lack discipline.

 

Therefore, discipline trading implies one is executing the trading plan as designed.

[zdo 20]

The emerging definition in this thread of “trading discipline” = invariably following your own rules

… and here’s a representative version of the truism

“trading success really takes only one thing. discipline” bootstrap

 

What process is needing and being ‘disciplined’?

Why would someone not follow the plan?

It seems to me that implied in any lacking of discipline (in all its many and variable individual degrees) are rational, quasi-rational, and irrational structural conflicts

I have to question the long term viability and sustainability of simply attempting to apply “discipline” in such irresolvable structures

 

…

 

In another vein, it is really hard for me to see how one can consistently "just do it / discipline" without previously having built up the capacity

…and practicing / applying a routine act of ‘discipline’ today will not build that capacity

 

So, I’m not a fan of ‘discipline’ trading. I’m more out of than in agreement with the horde, literally, of ‘discipline’ traders.

… I can recognize where they are coming from.

… ie not making them and their positions completely wrong – just ‘completely incomplete’. Basically, I think life is fixin’ to shock all these ‘discipline’ traders – one by one…

… hence the exploring if this is another Truism – NOT!

[SIUYA 11]

What process is needing and being ‘disciplined’?

Why would someone not follow the plan?

… hence the exploring if this is another Truism – NOT!

 

probably because they really dont have a plan? or a strategy or a system that they can apply.....they would prefer to buy one, have it handed it to them, and think that all they need is discipline.

 

.............

time for vendor bash for some reason it stuck me as something to do --- another truism - NOT ! maybe - vendors should be ridiculed.

 

For some reason I have been recently watching some trader educational videos on u tube (in between family guy, TED, TL and other assorted porn) - it only takes 5-10 mins on each and most can be switched off pretty quickly ---- it amazes me how many of them there are out there. How many of them say the same stuff in the same way, or the same stuff but by trying to be different (a unique selling point no doubt).

 

 

Any ways a few 'truisms' popped up i thought i you might like - these seemed to be repeated.....

"I am an expert trader - but I did not take that trade because - I had computer problems - it was slow, my internet was down, I was having trouble with my system, I am showing you how to plan ahead but I couldn't be bothered "----- nah -it was probably never obvious at the time or impossible to get on it happened so quickly, and plus your an expert trader ---- get a new computer, a good platform and internet connection

 

"You could see this was going to be a red (down) bar" --- really - i thought that it either was or was not only after the fact?

 

" You can see that the pros were buying here, but the retail guys were selling here" - WTF - you cant tell sh.t. So the "pros" (whoever they might be) are the only ones that have enough firepower to move the market one way, but the retail guys are the only ones who have the power to reverse it.

 

"Magnets for price - it will be drawn to this level" - so why not put on a trade until it gets there? Why - because its not a trade, its just a hunch, and it might happen, but it might not in which case we forget i said anything.

 

.................

As a side note - we all say and do dumb sh.t but I like that these guys repeat the same dumb sh.t.....and yet its because we want them to ---- I want to see a vendor say -

"right most of you will loose, we will take half your money, the market will take the rest and unless you work it out for yourself you are cannon fodder, no matter what I tell you - thank you for coming next class"

 

....a good week I am feeling smug - Not. - enjoy zdo.

[zdo 20]

SUIYA thx.

...even though I'm a VendorBasher - NOT!

I did enjoy

[Obsidian 10]

ever thought of starting a vendor trading contest?

[MightyMouse 12]

ever thought of starting a vendor trading contest?

 

I actually did think of it. I suspected that no one would want to participate.

[ForexTraderX 10]

The emerging definition in this thread of “trading discipline” = invariably following your own rules

… and here’s a representative version of the truism

“trading success really takes only one thing. discipline” bootstrap

 

What process is needing and being ‘disciplined’?

Why would someone not follow the plan?

It seems to me that implied in any lacking of discipline (in all its many and variable individual degrees) are rational, quasi-rational, and irrational structural conflicts

I have to question the long term viability and sustainability of simply attempting to apply “discipline” in such irresolvable structures

 

…

 

In another vein, it is really hard for me to see how one can consistently "just do it / discipline" without previously having built up the capacity

…and practicing / applying a routine act of ‘discipline’ today will not build that capacity

 

So, I’m not a fan of ‘discipline’ trading. I’m more out of than in agreement with the horde, literally, of ‘discipline’ traders.

… I can recognize where they are coming from.

… ie not making them and their positions completely wrong – just ‘completely incomplete’. Basically, I think life is fixin’ to shock all these ‘discipline’ traders – one by one…

… hence the exploring if this is another Truism – NOT!

 

This is really solid man. To add a bit to this I can use a personal anecdote here. This year has been rough for myself as a full time trader. I've even twice reconstructed some significant parts of my trading plan (something I haven't felt needing doing in almost 3 years until now)

 

at first, due to some drawdowns and slow periods, I decided to create harder, stricter rules for my setups, my trade management, etc. And it went well, for a couple months. Then, I end up wiping out a fair portion of this years earnings on a "bad week" of emotional trading.

 

so a few months ago, I decided to throw out that new set of further structure, and actual take a more relaxed view of everything. I found that when I feel I want to be trading, really want to be trading, or the opportunities are good enough to get me excited about the markets, then I do well.

 

On days I trade out of obligation, or because I feel I should be doing my job, etc... I tend to do less well. And worst of all, it's those days that I can become completely destabilized and experience a double digit loss in a day or 2.

 

Now, I literally threw nearly my entire trading plan out, so to speak. I've reduced it to just two simple rules:

 

1. Only trade when want, how I want, in the markets that I want, during the times I want to.

 

2. Don't Blow Up.

 

For me, more rules and structure to my plan only made things worse. I find my "discipline" is in my always paying close attention to how i'm feeling internally. And, to constantly stay "in the moment" when I trade, so as I never get so stressed or unnerved to trigger a fight or flight reaction in me (in which I can melt down).

 

I tend to be a highly reactionary person, and I get angry quickly. For me, the discipline to always focus on balance, and to constantly question my own thoughts and state of mind, so as I can monitor this as I trade.

 

Like many other full time discretionary day traders, I don't need any sort of plan that tells me what my setups are, or how much I can risk on a trade, etc. I know it all because I've done it a million times, in a million ways, and I know what works and what doesn't. Like an experienced mechanic, I don't need a book to tell me how an engine goes together, or that this problem means that this part needs replacing, etc.

 

my discipline now comes in remaining balanced. To actually work less. To have fewer rules. To remember to focus on my feelings more. These are not things I naturally do well. They take work for me.

 

The end result is I don't need a rule to tell me how many trades I can or cannot take in a day. I don't need a rule to tell me how much I can or cannot risk in a day. I have no written setups. I just have an understanding of the markets, and myself. I know my own limits, and I have the discipline to stay focused on myself and those limits so I can make the best decisions in the markets.

 

Again, very good post.