Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

TinGull

[VSA] Volume Spread Analysis Part I

Recommended Posts

Tawe

 

Maybe I should of been more exact. It is a candle/bar that is narrower than the previous candle/bar. You are correct that it is not a narrow range bar as defined by an overall measure of bar/candle ranges.

 

Range/Spread means high to low. The only exception is WRB which is Wide Range Body and refers to the distance between the open and the close.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Taken it up a notch.

 

A: Down bar on high volume with a close in the upper portion of range; Demand enters. This is confirmed with the next bar up.

 

B: WRB/Effort to Rise. Up bar with high volume and increasing range. Markets typically don't like up bars on high volume as they may contain selling (supply). WRB analysis says that a change in the supply/demand dynamic may be happening.

 

C: Down bar on high volume. Some supply did enter on previous bar. However, this bar is down on high(er) volume and could be hiding strength. The next bar does indeed close up, so there must be some buying in this down bar.

 

D: Up bar that closes in the lower portion of its range. Volume is high. Clearly Supply entered on this bar. The move sideways confirms that there was some supply entering on the last few bars. The fact that the market moves sideways and not down is telling of overall strength.

 

E: Down bar that is also a selling bar (low lower than previous low and high equal to or lesser than previous high). Volume has dried up and is less than the previous two volume levels. This is No Supply. Possible first entry as we now have a low volume sign within the body of a WRB with high volume.

 

F: D created a top and F is an Effort to Rise thru that top and the resistance level of B. Note volume is not very high and the close is on the high of the bar. This is a time when an up bar is strength not weakness.

 

G: More supply comes in. We get a very high volume bar that closes equal to the previous bar and closes in the lower portion of its range. While this was a buying bar (higher high than previous bar and higher or equal low than previous low), volume reveals the truth. Supply entered. The next bar is indeed down.

 

H: This is a Test. Had this been actual selling the volume would be higher. Plus the close would not be on the high of the range. When the next bar closes up and confirms the Test, we again have a low volume sign within the body of WRB. In short, another possible entry point.

 

I: is No Demand. There is no weakness in the background here. Or at least we see much more strength than weakness. The pros may not be ready to participate on an up move, but they are not selling decisively. Note how the next bar is down but does not trade lower than the low of the Test.

 

J: Test/Test in a Rising Market. Normally bullish but there is now a Gap on the chart. Gaps are usually filled. Does the Test tell us that this one will not be?

 

K: Effort to Rise. As previously stated, many times after a low volume sign there will be an Effort bar. This is due to the relationship between volume and volatility. At any rate, the next bar is down and we can see no close higher than this bar. This looks like No Result from an Effort to Rise (Bearish). Evidence that the market wants to at least back fill the gap.

 

L: Possible Test. The chart was captured before the close of the last bar so it may turn out that this bar is not a Test. If it is, it would make sense that the market is looking for supply as there has not yet been any results from the Effort to Rise and there is a Gap below. One should note that the low of this Possible Test is not lower than the low of the previous Test. This could be a good sign. Any dark WRB closing lower than this Test bar would be a sign of further falling prices....

5aa70e4eb64fb_post1228.thumb.PNG.fc5fcc44762422222ada686bc5346a0d.PNG

Edited by mister ed
Add back chart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Now I mainly trade the FTSE 100 Futures contract listed on the Liffe exchange from a 7 minute chart. I follow the cash market closely. Tom Williams states that if you're going to trade futures based on Indexes you must follow what the cash market is doing before jumping into the futures market.

 

The only probelm I have is that Interactive brokers do not provide realtime volume information for the FTSE 100 cash market. How is one to trade intraday using Tom Williams' methods if you do not have access to realtime parent index volume information?

 

Do you simply ignore the cash market all together and use the volume in the futures market as the guide? If so, aren't you trading contrary to what Tom has espoused in his writings on VSA?

 

Hello lote_tree, if you have read this thread you would see that I also trade the FTSE future and I have managed to bag some pts since I started posting my charts.

 

Yes, in an ideal world we would like to have cash mkt (live) intraday volume to help us trade but until that is available I believe the futures mkt volume is the next-best-thing. There is EOD volume available for the FTSE cash index.

 

I have also noticed frequent volume 'spikes' in the FTSE future which is normally followed by a good size move. I can only assume that the in-the-know traders have some advance notice of some important news and then they pile into (or go short) the FTSE future contract.

 

The main difference between cash and future mkt which has been previously discussed is 'testing' where in the cash mkt it needs to be low to be successful, but if the futures traders see a successful 'cash' test they then pile in, which can lead to a high volume futures test.

 

As somebody else suggested, (if it can be done) you could add the intraday volume of the FTSE's say 15 largest companies by mkt cap ie BP, Shell, Glaxo, Rio, Bats, Vodafone and the big banks etc.

 

Just out of interest, why do you use a 7 min timeframe ? I usually have a range of various timeframes open, from 3mins to 60 min.

 

Darren

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the boot camp Tom says there are situations when a high volume up bar is actually bullish and that he'd explain later. But he never does so what are the situations when a high volume, wide spread, up bar is bullish?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JJ,

It is indeed explained. Here are my notes of it.

 

There is one circumstance when a HV WRB is bullish. This is when the market needs a push, it needs the volume to get thru resistance. You’ve got to be aware of where you are when HV comes in. Look to the left for resistance.

 

When you see an old trading area to the left like below, there are traders who are locked in long. On every dip down, they are worried. Smart money doesn’t want to see them sell when they want to drive the prices higher.

 

Bryan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Marketguy, is what you speak of, the same for down WRB's? The picture attached shows the QQQQ daily. It pushes through support with huge volume. However, it closes 19 cents off the low. One thing I would like to point out is, that on the 15 min chart, there was a huge volume spike. It took place in the last 15 minutes of the real market being open. Followed by the rest of the after hours session moving higher. Would this suggest overall weakness in the market, but a slight pop on Monday? I found Friday to be a very interesting day. The bad NFP report, plus the key break of support with so much force, could spell trouble here for the Nasdaq and the overall market.

qqqq.PNG.b04d89c027492171a28ca308220e5393.PNG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JJ,

It is indeed explained. Here are my notes of it.

 

There is one circumstance when a HV WRB is bullish. This is when the market needs a push, it needs the volume to get thru resistance. You’ve got to be aware of where you are when HV comes in. Look to the left for resistance.

 

When you see an old trading area to the left like below, there are traders who are locked in long. On every dip down, they are worried. Smart money doesn’t want to see them sell when they want to drive the prices higher.

 

Bryan

 

Oh yes I do recall that but I thought the tactict was to gap up through resistance rather than push.

 

So basically, if we've seen a down move with a bit of accumulation and we then get a big bar up, it's probably bullish where as if we've had a nice rally and we see a big bar up then we're probably looking at the top or at least weakness, correct?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a chapter called Pushing through Supply / Support Lines in the book.

 

'If you observe a wide spread up bar on high volume, punching thro' the top of a trend channel / down-trendline (supply line) and the next bar is level or higher, then you would now be expecting higher prices. Any low volume down-bar (potential test) will confirm this view.

 

I believe the opposite is true for pushing down through an up sloping channel / trendline.

 

There is also the possible act of gapping through support / resistance.

 

So basically, if we've seen a down move with a bit of accumulation and we then get a big bar up, it's probably bullish where as if we've had a nice rally and we see a big bar up then we're probably looking at the top or at least weakness, correct?

 

JJ, that seems a valid statement. I think the trick with VSA (like many others have said) is to look left on the chart to see where prices have come from, before acting on what is currently happening. Where has the mkt been ? and then compare that to where it is now. It is worth asking yourself this question on a continual basis. 'They' say that TA doesn't work, as past prices can't predict the future but it the case of VSA I believe that looking at the past is vital to making it work on the hard right edge.

 

A wide spread high volume up bar after a rally 'could' be seen as bearish.

A wide spread high volume up bar after a decline pushing through a trendline 'could' be seen as bullish, effort to rise etc and the start of a possible rally and change of trend.

Edited by tawe trader
.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

I joined this forum around mid-december and have read most posts in this thread. I have also read "Master the Markets" by Tom Williams.

 

I have a question about volume adjustmentss around the holiday season. In "Master the Markets", p103, it is said: "It is a good idea to double the volume figures for half-day trading periods".

 

Is this generally done, is there any other volume adjustments to make for dec-24 to jan-2 ?

 

Thanks,

Rene

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi

If anyone is willing to sell a used "Professional Chart Reading Boot Camp" CD please email me.

 

tradproj, I have noticed that there is one for sale on ebay, have a look at:-

 

hxxp://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=190188487740&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=009

 

If the link doesn't work, try changing the hxxp to http.

Edited by tawe trader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See attached chart.

On this forum several people have asked for realtime trades with VSA, which is still beyond me (not good enough at VSA), but I think it would be really useful to post after-the-close charts of daily or weekly charts of the major indices and predict where we think the market is going, or at least show what we think might be valid VSA indicators.

 

So, for example, I've attached a daily chart of the Dow Industrials, and applied what I hope to be a correct analysis vis VSA. Namely, we have tested lower prices on higher volume. That would suggest to me that there's still more supply down below. Given the fact that we are sitting at support from last November as well as last August, and given the fact that we are still very oversold, we may get an upward bounce at this point, but I think this VSA interpretation suggests that we are not yet ready for a sustained, tradable up-move (unless you're trading intraday, perhaps).

 

Anyway, this is my best guess, given what I know of VSA so far.

5aa70e313cda4_failedtest.thumb.png.a457bbe016be7c6d7601b090380e337d.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
See attached chart.

Namely, we have tested lower prices on higher volume. That would suggest to me that there's still more supply down below. Given the fact that we are sitting at support from last November as well as last August, and given the fact that we are still very oversold, we may get an upward bounce at this point, but I think this VSA interpretation suggests that we are not yet ready for a sustained, tradable up-move (unless you're trading intraday, perhaps).

 

.

 

Today's narrowing spread on higher volume probably represents demand overcoming supply. I think Wyckoff and Williams called it bagholding. With the low to the left and the oversold position relative to the channel it's a logical place for demand to enter.

 

nic

5aa70e314551f_DowChannel.thumb.png.97c713c1baf3263f2255f5235eea2487.png

Edited by gassah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Williams prefers a down close for today's bar but Wyckoff didn't care.

 

"As they are buying (or absorbing) all of the stock on offer, this prevents substantial down-moves during the day's trading (despite all the frantic selling) and finishes up with a narrow spread on a down-day. If the professional money had not been bullish, they would refuse to buy stocks on offer, which means that the spread would then be wide and down for the day." MTM

 

nic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what Wyckoff stated for a similar bar:

 

"...although the price makes a new low and the closing is on the bottom, the downward thrust has shortened with volume still comparatively heavy, indicating that on this and the previous day somebody is holding the bag for the sellers -- a large demand is overcoming large supply-- the buying is of better quality than the selling.

 

If the above reasoning is incorrect, that is, if it should later turn out that the increasing volume... should have been interpreted to mean that liquidation is breaking out, we probably will be warned of this by the stock’s inability to rally convincingly from the critical supporting level... We are not likely to be long in doubt. Should it rally poorly...or should the price continue to decline on increasing volume, we must let our 3 Position stand (a bearish position). But if it quiets down and tends to hold, we must conclude that this means the break to a new low is failing to follow through."

 

nic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is what Wyckoff stated for a similar bar:

 

"...although the price makes a new low and the closing is on the bottom, the downward thrust has shortened with volume still comparatively heavy, indicating that on this and the previous day somebody is holding the bag for the sellers -- a large demand is overcoming large supply-- the buying is of better quality than the selling.

 

If the above reasoning is incorrect, that is, if it should later turn out that the increasing volume... should have been interpreted to mean that liquidation is breaking out, we probably will be warned of this by the stock’s inability to rally convincingly from the critical supporting level... We are not likely to be long in doubt. Should it rally poorly...or should the price continue to decline on increasing volume, we must let our 3 Position stand (a bearish position). But if it quiets down and tends to hold, we must conclude that this means the break to a new low is failing to follow through."

 

nic

 

Hi nic,

 

Could you point out which book this quote is from? I would like to read it myself. Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi nic,

 

Could you point out which book this quote is from? I would like to read it myself. Thank you.

 

Hi,

 

It's from Wyckoff's original course that is also part of SMI's Unit 2.

 

nic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi,

 

It's from Wyckoff's original course that is also part of SMI's Unit 2.

 

nic

 

Thank you nic, do you have by any chance the url to this course? I would like to check this out when I get a chance. Ive always been a avid student of Wyckoff but never had a chance to take his course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a RT trade from today. We see weakness come in on these high volume wide spread up bars. The spread narrows and the volume is still high. This is an "End of a rising market" to me so I shorted it. My entry and stop are market.

cheers

5aa70e3162600_TueTrade.thumb.jpg.91fb9d1312b85b78df795ee20de3c8ef.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"As they are buying (or absorbing) all of the stock on offer, this prevents substantial down-moves during the day's trading (despite all the frantic selling) and finishes up with a narrow spread on a down-day. If the professional money had not been bullish, they would refuse to buy stocks on offer, which means that the spread would then be wide and down for the day." MTM

 

gassah, can you please tell me which page this quote appears on?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Folks

 

Please find todays ES Analysis for tuesday 8th Jan 08, I have managed to get the file size down without losing too much quality.

 

Regards Sebastian

 

Happy new year and a profitable one too, to you all.

 

Hi Sebastion,

 

Having some trouble with the video. Is the file audio only?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Sebastion,

 

Having some trouble with the video. Is the file audio only?

 

James, no trouble here Video and audio crystal clear. Maybe try rebooting? Sometimes that clears video/audio problems. Are you using wmplayer to view it? If you're using something else, that could also be a problem. Hope you get it figured out---Sebastian was brilliant, as always.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • "To make more capable, powerful AI models, developers need a steady flow of fresh data to train their models on. However, they’re starting to run out. Current generative AIs have scraped everything from the Internet that can be scraped. The alternative is to use “synthetic” data—training data generated by earlier forms of AI instead of original sources found on the Internet.  Using synthetic data is tempting. It’s cheaper than licensing datasets (an increasingly common requirement); there’s virtually no limit to the amount of data, text, or images AIs can create; and no one’s privacy is violated. The problem is that, over several generations, AIs trained synthetically develop what has been called “Model Autophagy Disorder,” or MAD, by the researchers at Rice University who discovered it. They like the acronym “MAD” because it’s similar to “Mad Cow Disease,” a calamitous, fatal brain disease that turned up in beef cattle in the 1980s when they were fed the ground-up remains of their butchered colleagues.  The word “autophagy” is a combination of the Greek “auto,” meaning self, and “phagy,” to eat. After training successive visual AI models on synthesized data, the scientists found a disturbing pattern: images of faces began to show grid-patterned scratch marks and eventually began more and more to look like the same face. Images of numbers gradually distorted until they became a mass of unintelligible squiggles.  “Even after a few generations of such training, the new models can become irreparably corrupted,” computer engineer Richard Baraniuk said in a university press statement.  As synthetic data, and synthetically trained AIs, proliferate online, the problem will feed on itself and become steadily worse, he warned. “One doomsday scenario is that if left uncontrolled for many generations, MAD could poison the data quality and diversity of the entire Internet,” Baraniuk said. “Short of this, it seems inevitable that as-to-now-unseen unintended consequences will arise from AI autophagy even in the near term. “Without enough fresh real data,” he added, “future generative models are doomed to MADness.” TRENDPOST: If AI developers come to believe that it is no longer possible to advance generative AI much beyond its current state, two things will happen. First, engineers will switch from developing new models to tweaking existing ones and continue customizing them to make off-the-shelf versions for specific industries. Second, developers will turn their obsession with AI power from generative systems to general AI, which can reason and make decisions without the need for human guidance.  That day might be closer than any of us, including AI engineers, are ready to deal with." Zgbs73                        
    • TS Tenaris stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 39.17 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TS
    • UAL United Airlines stock nice breakout setup at https://stockconsultant.com/?UAL
    • AAL American Airlines stock, good trend, watch for a range breakout at https://stockconsultant.com/?AAL
    • Date: 10th January 2025. Why is the British Pound Declining?   The Great British Pound is the worst performing currency of 2025 so far after witnessing sharp declines for 3 consecutive days. The decline is largely being triggered by the bond selloff, lack of business confidence due to the UK Autumn budget and political uncertainty. Will the trend continue?     The GBP Index Declines 2% In 2025! Why Is The Pound Dropping? The Great British Pound is the worst performing currency of the week and of the year so far. Below you can see a table showing the Pound’s performance in January 2025 so far. GBPUSD -2.25% EURGBP +1.69% GBPJPY -1.44% GBPCHF -1.42% GBPAUD -1.91% GBPCAD -2.00% A key reason for the GBP’s decline is the latest labor budget, which is driving a selloff in UK bonds. Bonds across the global market are declining, including in the US and Germany. However, the global decline is mainly due to monetary policy. The decline in UK bond yields is due to concerns regarding the UK budget, higher costs for business and investor confidence. As a result, investors are selling UK bonds, but also reducing their exposure to the Pound. Bond Selloff and Rising Yields: Higher bond yields can sometimes strengthen a currency by attracting increased investor demand. However, this effect is unlikely when rising yields result from a bond selloff driven by declining investor confidence. The UK 30-Year Bond Yields are at their highest level since 1998 and the 10-Year Bond Yields are up to the highest level since the banking crisis of 2008. Investors’ concerns are that the higher costs for business will be passed onto consumers, triggering higher stickier inflation. As a result, the Bank of England will struggle to reduce the cost of borrowing in 2025 and foreign investors will become more cautious of operations in the UK. The short-term impact is that the UK Chancellor may struggle to meet her fiscal rules. Her budget margin of £9.9bn to avoid overshooting borrowing has likely shrunk to about £1 billion due to market shifts, even before the OBR updates its forecasts. This uncertainty may force the Treasury to cut future spending plans, but the full picture won’t emerge until the OBR's March forecast. According to reports, the UK Chancellor cannot risk higher increases in taxes and will be forced to cut public spending. The GBPUSD Falls To A 60-Week Low! The GBP is struggling against all currencies, but the sharpest decline can be seen against the USD. The GBP’s decline is partially due to the incoming president, Donald Trump, who is expected to introduce Dollar-supporting measures, but also potentially impose tariffs on the UK.   The new White House administration is likely to impose new tariffs on imports from China, Canada, and Mexico. This is likely to potentially disrupt supply chains and prompt the Federal Reserve to adopt tighter monetary policy, thereby strengthening the national currency. Some experts believe the UK will face tariffs or be pressured to adopt more pro-American economic policies. This is also something the EU will likely experience. In addition to this, reports suggest that the UK Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, and Trump supporters are not on good terms, nor agree on much including on Geo-politics. Therefore, the decline is also related to concerns the UK may be put into a difficult position by the new US administration. According to analysts, Dollar strength is likely to continue throughout the year due to the new administration’s measures, but also due to a hawkish Federal Reserve. In the latest FOMC meeting minutes, the committee stated it expects interest rates to decline at a slower pace. The Federal Reserve is likely to only cut 0.50% in 2025 and may not cut until May or June. Liz Truss 2022 Or James Callaghan 1976? Is this the first Pound crisis? The GBP has experienced many "sterling crises” in the past. For example, Black Wednesday from 1992 and after Brexit in 2016. However, there have been similar crises in the past which are very similar to the current situation. For example, the Liz Truss Budget from 2022 which saw the GBP decline more than 23%. During the Sterling Crisis of 1976 the GBPUSD fell from 2.0231 to 1.5669. Both sterling crises were due to the budget, inflation and rising bond yields. Today’s issues for the GBP and UK are very similar, however, the performance of the GBP will depend on if the new SI contributions triggers lower economic activity, inflation and if the Federal Reserve indeed avoids cutting interest rates in the near future. If inflation rises it will dampen consumer demand and the Bank of England will be forced to pause any rate adjustments. As a result, the economy may contract or stall further pressuring the GBP. However, this cannot yet be certain. KPMG experts anticipate accelerated economic growth this year, supported by monetary policy and increased government spending. They project GDP to rise to 1.7%, more than doubling last year’s 0.8%. This growth, according to their estimates, will be driven by a recovery in consumer spending, expected to increase by 1.8% compared to 1.0% last year. In addition to this, if the Federal Reserve unexpectedly opts for more frequent rate cuts, the GBP and EUR are likely to benefit. When monitoring the price movement and patterns which can be seen in the exchange rate, the decline looks similar to the price movement seen in 2022, during the Truss reign. The price has now fallen below the support level from April 2024. The next support levels can be seen at 1.20391 and 1.17992. Technical analysis for the GBP can also be viewed in HFM’s latest Live Trading Session.   Key Takeaways: The Great British Pound is the worst performing currency of the year so far, having declined by more than 2.00%. A key reason for the GBP’s decline is the latest labor budget, which is driving a selloff in UK bonds. UK 30-year bond yields are at their highest since 1998, while 10-year yields have reached levels last seen during the 2008 banking crisis. Investors reduce exposure to the GBP as the US edges closer to a new president and pro-Dollar supportive measures. The UK labour government will not reconsider higher taxes but may be forced to reduce public spending. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding of how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in Leveraged Products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.