Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

TinGull

[VSA] Volume Spread Analysis Part I

Recommended Posts

Yes and No.

 

I do not presume to know what is in Tom's mind, but there is a bit of placation going on here. Tom, the father of Volume Spread Analysis, does not like technical indicators. He has the ability to read a chart bar by bar and make uncannily accurate "predictions" of future price moves. As the rumors go, Tom was not very happy with TG when it first came out because; (1) there were too many signs of strength and weakness and (2) there were technical indicators included in the software. But Tom is a realist. He does understand that most traders into this area (trading) thru TA. This is because it is easier than reading a naked chart and more accessible.

 

As far as using them together, I believe, he would say if the TA doesn't match the VSA, always go with the VSA. Think about like this: Instead of going long because macd is diverging and there are signs of strength in the background; one should go long because there are signs of strength in the background and oh by the way macd is diverging. May seem like a subtle difference but they are actually worlds apart.

 

In the end, Tom does not trade your money. You have to do what works for you. It is about making money. If moving averages or CCI help you make money and make your VSA better, then use them.

 

Hi PP, yes I was wondering if at this seminar perhaps what William's was saying was tailored to the particular audience in attendance, it was "The Society of Technical Analysts" after all, so yes "placation " indeed.

 

Nevertheless, I thought I would include it in the discussion as the recent direction of the thread has been looking to specific entries, and if someone is comfortable with using technical indicators as an important input into entry and/or exit decisions then adding VSA can be beneficial. Then there is the other direction - if you are comfortable with using VSA can adding technical indicators be beneficial? Like you say, up to the individual and what he or she finds works best.

 

I would place myself in the camp of placing primary importance on the VSA/Wyckoff analysis, to the extent that I rarely look at indicators at all, but I can see how they could be seen as helpful if used in context.

 

It would be interesting to hear how people may use VSA in conjunction with say MP, or candles, or other more directly price-related inputs (as opposed to technical indicators) into their entry decisions and their take on the relative importance of VSA versus say a candlestick "pattern" in their specific entry/exit decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just watched TradeGuiders chart of the week with Tom Williams and he's announced that in January he's going to be sharing some of his favorite trading setups and strategies using VSA.

This is great news for us all!

 

I've gone back over some charts to find examples like PP and others have posted and even if you were to get in too early on a VSA 'signal', you would still be notified by another VSA signal to get out, that it's not going to go as far as we thought.

 

So in some of the examples I posted about where to get in, well if you had gotton in at any one of those signs of strength, you could have ridden it until a sign of weakness or 'unreadiness' to go up, at least for a small profit. Stops would only have gotton hit if you had a static target in mind and ignored the signs that the markets was not ready to move yet.

 

Thanks to all for contributing productively to the issue. It's awesome that even Tom is going to be contributing to the subject.

 

Let me end with a quote from Tom in the "Undeclared Secrets" about the subject with regard to trading an upthrust signal: "Note that the indicators are quite inspired but you still have your work cut out for you to trade them. Any market is designed for you to lose money in. The oscillating up and down ensures this".

 

Happy holidays everyone!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After reading on these forums about VSA, I am wanting to take my education a little deeper with regards to VSA.

 

What would be the steps you would advise me to take?

 

Is tradeguider the "main" site for VSA?

 

Thanks for the insight...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
After reading on these forums about VSA, I am wanting to take my education a little deeper with regards to VSA.

 

What would be the steps you would advise me to take?

 

There are, so far, >120 pages on this thread alone, I think you

can go pretty deep just studying these: there is huge amount

of written material and in the later pages there are audio/visual

presentations also. Study this thread - great first step.

 

Have you downloaded and studied the ebook Master the Markets?

Thats going to be helpful and a great second step.

 

There are threads on ET also, pretty sure the links are on this

thread - good third step.

 

All of this is free so far.

 

If you want to stay with the free resources, start investigating

Wyckoff, his work can go very deep into VSA indeed - VSA is

a subset of Wyckoff analysis. There are links to Wyckoff

resources throughout this thread - there is a Yahoo group

which is probably the easiest place to start to help find more

resources.

 

As far as TradeGuider goes, there are the free COTW presentations,

get on the distribution list for these.

Then there are the paid products like the educational CDs, the software

itself.

 

I am sure I have missed some resources, but take these steps

and you should be well on your way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
- VSA is

a subset of Wyckoff analysis. There are links to Wyckoff

resources throughout this thread - there is a Yahoo group

which is probably the easiest place to start to help find more

resources.

 

 

The Original Wyckoff course might be available from the Stock Market Institute. It used to go for about $200. It's by far the best material by Wyckoff and you'll see where Williams came up with many of his ideas. They have a brand new web site and you can find the contacts there, http://wyckoffstockmarketinstitute.com/

 

nic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Has anyone watched the CD by Tom Williams

"How to pick Stocks that are Ready to Move"

... just wondering if its different to the boot camp CDs.

 

sleepy :)

 

Haven't seen it, but it's my understanding that the primary focus of that CD is on using the stock scanner feature in TradeGuider.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Everyone,

 

Mr Noob here so please bear with me. I've read this thread from the start. I've read both "Master the Markets" and "The Undeclared Secrets That Drive Stock Market" by Tom Williams. Both are excllent books, (even though they are nearly the same).

 

I think it's probably the best method to trade stocks or futures that I've ever come accross because it's a very direct approach to taking advantage of what make prices go up or down, (the imbalance between supply and demand)

 

Now I mainly trade the FTSE 100 Futures contract listed on the Liffe exchange from a 7 minute chart. I follow the cash market closely. Tom Williams states that if you're going to trade futures based on Indexes you must follow what the cash market is doing before jumping into the futures market.

 

The only probelm I have is that Interactive brokers do not provide realtime volume information for the FTSE 100 cash market. How is one to trade intraday using Tom Williams' methods if you do not have access to realtime parent index volume information?

 

Do you simply ignore the cash market all together and use the volume in the futures market as the guide? If so, aren't you trading contrary to what Tom has espoused in his writings on VSA?

 

Great thread btw guys!

 

Thanks.

 

Peace...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it funny, that there is no volume for the cash indexes. I, still haven't been able to find the real answer. I did, however, ask someone and they said to compose your own index. Adding all the stocks together that make up the particular index. Truthfully, I have no idea if this can be done. I'm sure one of the guys on this thread may have more insight. Anyway, have a great new year, and a great time trading.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great thread here chaps with a lot of fine information regards VSA.

 

Would anyone be interested in discussing their VSA analysis of the daily DJI?

 

I'd be particularly interested in whether people think we are seeing accumulation or distribution over the last 6 months. :)

 

81i5lcx.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Great thread here chaps with a lot of fine information regards VSA.

 

Would anyone be interested in discussing their VSA analysis of the daily DJI?

 

I'd be particularly interested in whether people think we are seeing accumulation or distribution over the last 6 months. :)

 

6yeboyu.png

 

I'm fairly new but I see both...The 2 days that are throwing me off are the black arrow and then Dec. 21st. Black arrows wick seems like selling but I think how it closed off the lows makes it more bullish. That coupled with the fact that I don't think smart money would be unloading there, it's not high enough yet. Dec. 21st was options expiration so I've heard that most that volume was from that. I'm curious how the 21st is looked at because I see it as bullish whether it was options being executed or not.

 

Do you VSA pro's think a weekly is better to see broad market conditions? I can say when I stopped using a 5 minute chart for vsa and opened it to 15 minutes the signals got a ton more accurate. Perhaps for non intraday the same holds true and switching to weekly will smooth out the results a bit better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks mcichoki,

 

Taking the basics from Tom's 'Master the Markets' I can see professional support stepping in to buy during the middle of August.

 

Pro's didn't seem particularly interested in higher prices during the mid October highs by the falling volume (which you pointed out in your annotated chart) as we went to new highs.

 

Prices promptly came down and I'm wondering if the lows towards the end of November can be considered a test of supply as we came pretty close to the August lows again, but didn't find much selling.

 

What seems clear to me is that we are in a period of consolidation, and as I've stated before I'm looking for clues as to whether this is accumulation or distribution.

 

Something else I noted was that distribution tends to occur during good news and accumulation during bad news. From that point of view I suppose we can treat all the constant credit crisis articles as bad news.

 

I welcome anyone more experienced than myself with VSA to correct the obvious mistakes I may have made. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Great thread here chaps with a lot of fine information regards VSA.

 

Would anyone be interested in discussing their VSA analysis of the daily DJI?

 

I'd be particularly interested in whether people think we are seeing accumulation or distribution over the last 6 months. :)

 

81i5lcx.png

 

Sure.......We have tested the Aug 16th lows with some activity so we may test the lows again, hopefully on lower volume to be successful. Accumulation and distribution will show itself in the result of this sideways action. Firstly though you should have your price bars one colour so as to see the price range only. The volume bars should be the same colour as well in order to note the amt of volume as activity only. That way one is not thinking in terms of up and down, but what is price and volume doing. Secondly you make up a composite of the Dow stocks to see the real price and the real volume on your charts. That way you know whether there is no demand or no supply at the top /bottom of a swing. Since i'm new here, hello everyone, really like this thread.

 

erie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the fast replies chaps.

 

From my basic understandings of 'Master the Markets' I see the following;

 

1) Professional support at August lows as buying steps in.

 

2) The October highs occurred on light volume (which mcichocki marked on the chart) suggesting a lack of professional buying interest.

 

3) Test of supply on the November lows, quite high activity suggests another test may be likely (as you point out, erierambler).

 

In the book, Tom suggests that accumulation occurs under a bad news climate, such as we've had with the relentless credit crisis coverage.

 

We're clearly in a trading range, and due to the obersvations above I'm leaning more towards accumulation than distribution.

 

If any VSA pro's can spot obvious mistakes on my behalf I'll happily stand corrected. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be particularly interested in whether people think we are seeing accumulation or distribution over the last 6 months.

 

There is a third option which is neither, no accumulation or distribution, which is why Wyckoff broke his bases into phases. The market doesn't always know which way it wants to go.

 

nic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks gassah. The group you moderate, the SMI/Wyckoff Yahoo group, given the huge amount of information in the postings of that group do you have any links to particularly instructive posts/threads or series of posts/threads that you can single out? If you have the time?

 

I am sure a lot of the information there would be of use to those (like me!) following this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi mister ed,

 

I've only been trading for seven years and will have to pass you on to somebody with much more experience. I have found the most instructive posts by cofferspeculator. He has been trading Wyckoff-style for 40 years and a few years ago posted some real-time trades on IBD's board over several months that returned something like 40% in stocks. He has since been an incredible resource. He has his own board on Silicon Investor and I'd suggest going through all his posts, http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/subject.aspx?subjectid=54872

 

nic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The market doesn't always know which way it wants to go.

 

nic

 

Worth repeating and remembering. There are many participants some 'smart' some not so 'smart' all have different agendas and different time horizons. Sometimes they are not active sometimes they are.

 

For example think about what a test is. The market is marked down to discover if there are still sellers at a lower level. If there are then we see a failed test. The market is there to facilitate trade it will move around until it discovers where the orders are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WoW. Going thru forum withdrawal. Never again Soul!!! LOL.

 

Just a quick pic of an interesting, yet oft repeated pattern. Check out the chart below. Notice the Squat that appears on the chart. We have a narrow range bar with volume higher than the previous bar and volume that is high. But look at the volume on the very next bar. It drops off considerable on a down bar that closes near its high, in other words, a Test. Thus the Supply that entered on the previous bar (the Squat) most of been absorbed. This is thus a bullish sign. Also note that the Test is within the body of a WRB formed by the Effort to Fall Candle.

 

Let's back up to this candle for a second. We see a large dark WRB on higher volume that represents an Effort to Fall. But the next candle is up. We are seeing no result from high volume on this candle. Once the market move up and closes higher than the high of the Effort candle, we have no result from an Effort to Fall. Which is of course, a bullish sign.

 

Price falls down the next two bars however. Still on this fall we see a candle with volume less than the previous two bars , closing on its low and closing lower than the previous candle: No Supply. Look to the right to the Test candle. Notice that this Test does not get as low as the low of the No Supply candle. Hard to believe that that is just happenstance.

5aa70e4eb109d_post1223.thumb.PNG.da2c6ba294207ef73e3094480bee7abb.PNG

Edited by mister ed
Add back chart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Long vs Short

 

In theory VSA applies equally to going Long or Short. Just wondering if those who have been using VSA for a while have found that is in fact the case or if they actually do things different (consciously or sub-consciously) when going SHORT.

 

sleepy :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey it's nice to have this thread back online.........I have missed my VSA fix !

Check out the chart below. Notice the Squat that appears on the chart. We have a narrow range bar with volume higher than the previous bar and volume that is high

 

PP - you have confused me now (not hard I know) with your 'squat'. In my eyes it isn't a narrow range bar or am I reading in wrong ?

 

If I was looking at the EUR/USD chart as a bar chart I wouldn't class it as a narrow range bar but do you because it is a candlestick with a narrow spread between open and the close ?

 

Am I correct in assuming the Tom Williams determines the range/spread as the distance from the bar's high to low ?

 

Cheers Darren

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • "To make more capable, powerful AI models, developers need a steady flow of fresh data to train their models on. However, they’re starting to run out. Current generative AIs have scraped everything from the Internet that can be scraped. The alternative is to use “synthetic” data—training data generated by earlier forms of AI instead of original sources found on the Internet.  Using synthetic data is tempting. It’s cheaper than licensing datasets (an increasingly common requirement); there’s virtually no limit to the amount of data, text, or images AIs can create; and no one’s privacy is violated. The problem is that, over several generations, AIs trained synthetically develop what has been called “Model Autophagy Disorder,” or MAD, by the researchers at Rice University who discovered it. They like the acronym “MAD” because it’s similar to “Mad Cow Disease,” a calamitous, fatal brain disease that turned up in beef cattle in the 1980s when they were fed the ground-up remains of their butchered colleagues.  The word “autophagy” is a combination of the Greek “auto,” meaning self, and “phagy,” to eat. After training successive visual AI models on synthesized data, the scientists found a disturbing pattern: images of faces began to show grid-patterned scratch marks and eventually began more and more to look like the same face. Images of numbers gradually distorted until they became a mass of unintelligible squiggles.  “Even after a few generations of such training, the new models can become irreparably corrupted,” computer engineer Richard Baraniuk said in a university press statement.  As synthetic data, and synthetically trained AIs, proliferate online, the problem will feed on itself and become steadily worse, he warned. “One doomsday scenario is that if left uncontrolled for many generations, MAD could poison the data quality and diversity of the entire Internet,” Baraniuk said. “Short of this, it seems inevitable that as-to-now-unseen unintended consequences will arise from AI autophagy even in the near term. “Without enough fresh real data,” he added, “future generative models are doomed to MADness.” TRENDPOST: If AI developers come to believe that it is no longer possible to advance generative AI much beyond its current state, two things will happen. First, engineers will switch from developing new models to tweaking existing ones and continue customizing them to make off-the-shelf versions for specific industries. Second, developers will turn their obsession with AI power from generative systems to general AI, which can reason and make decisions without the need for human guidance.  That day might be closer than any of us, including AI engineers, are ready to deal with." Zgbs73                        
    • TS Tenaris stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 39.17 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TS
    • UAL United Airlines stock nice breakout setup at https://stockconsultant.com/?UAL
    • AAL American Airlines stock, good trend, watch for a range breakout at https://stockconsultant.com/?AAL
    • Date: 10th January 2025. Why is the British Pound Declining?   The Great British Pound is the worst performing currency of 2025 so far after witnessing sharp declines for 3 consecutive days. The decline is largely being triggered by the bond selloff, lack of business confidence due to the UK Autumn budget and political uncertainty. Will the trend continue?     The GBP Index Declines 2% In 2025! Why Is The Pound Dropping? The Great British Pound is the worst performing currency of the week and of the year so far. Below you can see a table showing the Pound’s performance in January 2025 so far. GBPUSD -2.25% EURGBP +1.69% GBPJPY -1.44% GBPCHF -1.42% GBPAUD -1.91% GBPCAD -2.00% A key reason for the GBP’s decline is the latest labor budget, which is driving a selloff in UK bonds. Bonds across the global market are declining, including in the US and Germany. However, the global decline is mainly due to monetary policy. The decline in UK bond yields is due to concerns regarding the UK budget, higher costs for business and investor confidence. As a result, investors are selling UK bonds, but also reducing their exposure to the Pound. Bond Selloff and Rising Yields: Higher bond yields can sometimes strengthen a currency by attracting increased investor demand. However, this effect is unlikely when rising yields result from a bond selloff driven by declining investor confidence. The UK 30-Year Bond Yields are at their highest level since 1998 and the 10-Year Bond Yields are up to the highest level since the banking crisis of 2008. Investors’ concerns are that the higher costs for business will be passed onto consumers, triggering higher stickier inflation. As a result, the Bank of England will struggle to reduce the cost of borrowing in 2025 and foreign investors will become more cautious of operations in the UK. The short-term impact is that the UK Chancellor may struggle to meet her fiscal rules. Her budget margin of £9.9bn to avoid overshooting borrowing has likely shrunk to about £1 billion due to market shifts, even before the OBR updates its forecasts. This uncertainty may force the Treasury to cut future spending plans, but the full picture won’t emerge until the OBR's March forecast. According to reports, the UK Chancellor cannot risk higher increases in taxes and will be forced to cut public spending. The GBPUSD Falls To A 60-Week Low! The GBP is struggling against all currencies, but the sharpest decline can be seen against the USD. The GBP’s decline is partially due to the incoming president, Donald Trump, who is expected to introduce Dollar-supporting measures, but also potentially impose tariffs on the UK.   The new White House administration is likely to impose new tariffs on imports from China, Canada, and Mexico. This is likely to potentially disrupt supply chains and prompt the Federal Reserve to adopt tighter monetary policy, thereby strengthening the national currency. Some experts believe the UK will face tariffs or be pressured to adopt more pro-American economic policies. This is also something the EU will likely experience. In addition to this, reports suggest that the UK Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, and Trump supporters are not on good terms, nor agree on much including on Geo-politics. Therefore, the decline is also related to concerns the UK may be put into a difficult position by the new US administration. According to analysts, Dollar strength is likely to continue throughout the year due to the new administration’s measures, but also due to a hawkish Federal Reserve. In the latest FOMC meeting minutes, the committee stated it expects interest rates to decline at a slower pace. The Federal Reserve is likely to only cut 0.50% in 2025 and may not cut until May or June. Liz Truss 2022 Or James Callaghan 1976? Is this the first Pound crisis? The GBP has experienced many "sterling crises” in the past. For example, Black Wednesday from 1992 and after Brexit in 2016. However, there have been similar crises in the past which are very similar to the current situation. For example, the Liz Truss Budget from 2022 which saw the GBP decline more than 23%. During the Sterling Crisis of 1976 the GBPUSD fell from 2.0231 to 1.5669. Both sterling crises were due to the budget, inflation and rising bond yields. Today’s issues for the GBP and UK are very similar, however, the performance of the GBP will depend on if the new SI contributions triggers lower economic activity, inflation and if the Federal Reserve indeed avoids cutting interest rates in the near future. If inflation rises it will dampen consumer demand and the Bank of England will be forced to pause any rate adjustments. As a result, the economy may contract or stall further pressuring the GBP. However, this cannot yet be certain. KPMG experts anticipate accelerated economic growth this year, supported by monetary policy and increased government spending. They project GDP to rise to 1.7%, more than doubling last year’s 0.8%. This growth, according to their estimates, will be driven by a recovery in consumer spending, expected to increase by 1.8% compared to 1.0% last year. In addition to this, if the Federal Reserve unexpectedly opts for more frequent rate cuts, the GBP and EUR are likely to benefit. When monitoring the price movement and patterns which can be seen in the exchange rate, the decline looks similar to the price movement seen in 2022, during the Truss reign. The price has now fallen below the support level from April 2024. The next support levels can be seen at 1.20391 and 1.17992. Technical analysis for the GBP can also be viewed in HFM’s latest Live Trading Session.   Key Takeaways: The Great British Pound is the worst performing currency of the year so far, having declined by more than 2.00%. A key reason for the GBP’s decline is the latest labor budget, which is driving a selloff in UK bonds. UK 30-year bond yields are at their highest since 1998, while 10-year yields have reached levels last seen during the 2008 banking crisis. Investors reduce exposure to the GBP as the US edges closer to a new president and pro-Dollar supportive measures. The UK labour government will not reconsider higher taxes but may be forced to reduce public spending. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding of how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in Leveraged Products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.