Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

TinGull

[VSA] Volume Spread Analysis Part I

Recommended Posts

I think you're right Tin. It trips me up sometimes because one bar will be hidden potential buying followed by hidden potential selling on the next bar. Best to step aside I suppose or drop down to a smaller timeframe to see what's happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nice trade bertg. Any positive trade is a good one.

 

Do you guys think end of the day market action taints VSA. Short covering produces very high volume in a short period of time. Any thoughts?

 

Imo...

 

It's still a reflection of supply and demand no matter what the cause. Additionally, short squeezes near the end of the session won't be able to affect the background strength/weakness seen throughout out the day.

 

For me the first 15min of the next day is paramount to the last 15min of the day prior for the very reasons we're discussing.

 

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Imo...

 

It's still a reflection of supply and demand no matter what the cause. Additionally, short squeezes near the end of the session won't be able to affect the background strength/weakness seen throughout out the day.

 

For me the first 15min of the next day is paramount to the last 15min of the day prior for the very reasons we're discussing.

 

:)

 

I was thinking more along the lines of determining strength or weakness for the following day based on end of day action and wether it gives a good indication.

As for beginning of the day, how do you relate it to what will happen at the end?

thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Updates on the two stocks I posted on the weekend.

The first was the one I was asking about testing which was confirmed as a test today.

The second is FDX which there was obviously still a lot of weakness.

test.jpg.422193d4244ceae7261c6d8ae8cbf93a.jpg

fdx.jpg.07157cc6d6404d6567d6bb38f97224f4.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

jj,

As far as "so much for that being strength"---if the bar had closed WITHIN the playing field I'd say that it meant strength, but as it closed lower, and below the halfway mark of the bar, I'd look at it as weakness. What is this stock?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jj,

As far as "so much for that being strength"---if the bar had closed WITHIN the playing field I'd say that it meant strength, but as it closed lower, and below the halfway mark of the bar, I'd look at it as weakness. What is this stock?

 

When we see ultra high volume down bars closing off the lows then, in what circumstances are we to think bearish?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JJ,

 

My analysis may be wrong here as Im still learning VSA ... but the key IMO is the close on the LOW. If the last bar had closed on a HIGH then you could argue there was strength coming in.

 

High volume on a down-day/bar always means selling. However, if the day’s action has closed in the middle or high, then market-makers and other professional money must have attempted to buy into the selling, or absorbed the selling (by buying), which then causes the market to stop going down..... Absorption volume typically marks the end of a downward trend. It is characterised by a very high volume bar that closes below the previous bar, on a wide spread. In normal circumstances, this would be construed as selling, but the defining difference is that the bar closes on the high. If the high volume had represented selling, how can the price action close on the high? Williams P90-91

 

But at the moment the close on the LOW signifys weakness. However, if the next bar is UP then you have buyers coming back in and what yourve just observed is either:

 

Failed Down Move

A rapid price move on wide spreads down, on high volume (especially if closing low), is a sign of weakness (i.e. Effort to go down). However, this type of action causes the market to become rapidly oversold and vulnerable to up-moves. If the next day (or hour) is up, it must show that there was buying as well as selling contained in the high volume down-move (no results from the effort). This shows that the brakes are being applied to the falls at that moment. P.147

 

Selling Climax

After substantial falls have already taken place (bear market), the market may open with wide spreads down, on very high volume. There will be panic amongst the herd! However, the next day (or bar) is up. This action represents a rapid transfer of stock, generated from panic selling to professional money (news will be doom and gloom to help this transfer of stock). This is known as a selling climax. P.161

Selling Pressue

For a market to drop, selling pressure needs to be evident, which normally shows itself as wide spreads down on high volume. If the next day is down this usually confirms that the volume seen on the day (bar) before was genuine selling. However, if the next day is up then it shows that there was selling going on, but the professional money was prepared to buy and support the market as well. You would now be expecting testing at some time, as a check is made on the level of latent supply. P.166

 

So until theres confirmation (i.e., an UP bar) theres still weakness and it could go even lower. Similar to what occured around September 20.

 

sleepy :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
YW,

 

you will find that with this VSA stuff, it is relatively easy to get into detailed discussions with the benefit of hindsight as to the meaning in each bar and whether one should have gone long or short, but in realtime one does not have this luxury. As with all tools there are no full proof setups, probability always rules, VSA provides that extra edge, however any scenario which works on one occasion can be negated next time depending on selling and buying pressures from folks who operate on higher time frames, and one has to be ready for that rather than get tied up with any forecasts IMO

 

Quoted for truth. Actually it should be quoted twice!

 

As an aside I think an area where VSA shines is monitoring what is going on in the now. My paradigm was always anticipate and then monitor. Is it happening yes/no. VSA is a pretty decent monitoring tool. I have shifted recently to simply looking for continuation/change. Neither of these paradigms rely on prediction.

 

It is easy (especially amongst newer traders) to come away with the idea you can 'predict' and that if you 'read it right' the trade will be right. This can actually lead to a pretty damaging mindset and is patently not true. Its refreshing to see trades that did not work out, I'd like to see lots more to keep a balanced perspective. Besides that there is often much more to be learnt from these scenarios. It is how one reacts to unfolding events that is really key to trading success not the initial 'read'. Monitoring price and volume puts you ahead of those that only watch price.

 

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where I find VSA very worthwhile is in a situation where a lot of indicators fail, ie an intraday trading range. If the mkt is bouncing around without any major news you can quite successfully pick tops and bottoms.

 

Over the last couple of days though, I have found it to be quite unsuccessful trading the long side of any of the major index Futures based on a VSA 'buy' signal. On numerous occasions there has been very high volume coming in on down-bars, but there have only been very small bounces before the mkt turns back down again. The bad news has been over-riding most VSA long set-ups.

 

On the opposite hand if I had only acted on VSA 'sell' signals (ie a no demand up-bar after a small rally) over the last couple of days then my trading would have been a lot more profitable.

 

It has confirmed to me, that I need to have a trend direction tool in the background to help filter my VSA signals. So if I am trading off a 5min timeframe, I really should only take signals in the direction of the 60 min trend or if I do go against the trend, only risk small amounts, use a tight stop-loss and take any quick profits.

 

Darren

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good point Darren. VSA is great when used to take higher odds trades, ie; in the direction of a trend. Tools to use for that....higher highs and higher lows/or opposite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This also highlights the importance of why Williams recommends using multiple timeframes. If you dont occassionally look at the bigger picture you may find yourself "too close to the market" and in effect swimming against the prevailing current (or as in this case ... the trend).

 

Alexander Elder got around this problem by coming up with his "Triple-screen Trading" technique. For example, a long term trader would first look at a monthly chart, then a weekly chart and finally the daily chart before making a trade, and then only if they all lined up.

 

sleepy :)

 

By the way has anyone found a way in TradeGuider to apply a group of charts (ie. a Monthly, Weekly, Daily chart of a particular stock) to ALL stocks in a folder. As creating a 'Group' for every stock I want to monitor is so time consuming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well you could try saving your monthly's in one folder and your daily's in another folder. You obviously know about the 'save group' function but you want a timeframe applied to all, correct?

Do you have the RT version or EOD?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JJ,

 

I have EOD. Im actually wanting to see M,W,D charts for stock AAA on the screen, then be able to see M,W,D charts for stock AAB, etc

 

... so as I page through EACH stock in a particular folder I have their M,W,D charts appear on screen at the same time.

 

sleepy :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Bert, nice work. What i see here...

 

1: Note that level of support. First area of support where the yellow line starts is a WRB support line. The bottom of the WRB often will provide support, and getting a higher volume spinning top right after...good sign it'll go higher. Then...comes the penetration of the low of that WRB on lower volume. Regular spread, lower volume and closing in the upper third. A break of that hammer is reason to get long for sure.

 

2: Another WRB that should provide some sort of S/r, and the next bar closes outside of that zone and then we get signs of excess in the form of long tails penetrating that S/R zone of the WRB....killer play.

 

TG,

 

Thanks for the reply and all of the contributions. To be honest, I'm not sure I understand which WRB support line you are talking about.

 

In any case, I am very excited about learning.

 

I'll post another chart soon that I will appreciate comments on.

 

Regards,

Bert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bert, if you see where the #2 is and there's a yellow box...that is outlining the support/resistance area of the wide range body candle that I marked out. The tops and bottoms of WRB candles as well as long tails on candles mark imbalance/excess. Hope that helps

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As an aside I think an area where VSA shines is monitoring what is going on in the now. My paradigm was always anticipate and then monitor. Is it happening yes/no. VSA is a pretty decent monitoring tool. I have shifted recently to simply looking for continuation/change.

 

BlowFish - if you have time could you elaborate on what you mean by "looking for continuation/change" please? And how VSA is useful for this? Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would you guys mind helping me out on this chart. One thing I'm still getting tripped up on is the background.

Have a look at this chart of the DOW mini (15 min chart), would one of you be able to point out the elusive (to me anyway) background?

I know Ravin's familiar with the YM, any pointers?

Thanks!

5aa70e2468f07_ymbackground.jpg.0fc168c59d43a8a07699cc9d01246e7d.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just got the new member ‘post or perish’ msg when I came up this time. So, here’s a post - that includes a short self -introduction.

While looking at price and volume threads on T2W, followed a reference to TL Forum and here I am. My user names are ZDO on T2W, obx on TS forum, (and I forgot it on ET) - should you need to check the intention and tone of my legacy posting.

 

Have only found time to look at a few pages but, so far, TL is a breath of fresh air. Going forward, as I plow through all 83 pages on this thread will I find herein any digests of the principles of VSA ? Any special pages on this thread to get the big picture? Also, is the book complete? ie does the Tom Williams book disclose all the patterns used in the software? Many thanks.

 

zdo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow. This thread moves at the speed of light. LOL

 

I love it.

 

ZDO: The book is complete. However, the software has roughly 2oo signs of strength and weakness. Many are slight various of a theme. For example, there may be 10 different No Demand signs. All that really means is there are 10 different dialog boxes associated with the No Demands, yet the definition of No Demand remains constant throughout the 10 different signs.

 

Also Tom and Todd worked on the software together and not the book. Which means Todd added a few ideas to the software that are based on VSA principles but not specifically articulated in the book. (Early on it is rumored that Tom felt that the software had too many "signs").

 

In sum, the book is complete and the foundation from which you should begin your VSA journey.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • "To make more capable, powerful AI models, developers need a steady flow of fresh data to train their models on. However, they’re starting to run out. Current generative AIs have scraped everything from the Internet that can be scraped. The alternative is to use “synthetic” data—training data generated by earlier forms of AI instead of original sources found on the Internet.  Using synthetic data is tempting. It’s cheaper than licensing datasets (an increasingly common requirement); there’s virtually no limit to the amount of data, text, or images AIs can create; and no one’s privacy is violated. The problem is that, over several generations, AIs trained synthetically develop what has been called “Model Autophagy Disorder,” or MAD, by the researchers at Rice University who discovered it. They like the acronym “MAD” because it’s similar to “Mad Cow Disease,” a calamitous, fatal brain disease that turned up in beef cattle in the 1980s when they were fed the ground-up remains of their butchered colleagues.  The word “autophagy” is a combination of the Greek “auto,” meaning self, and “phagy,” to eat. After training successive visual AI models on synthesized data, the scientists found a disturbing pattern: images of faces began to show grid-patterned scratch marks and eventually began more and more to look like the same face. Images of numbers gradually distorted until they became a mass of unintelligible squiggles.  “Even after a few generations of such training, the new models can become irreparably corrupted,” computer engineer Richard Baraniuk said in a university press statement.  As synthetic data, and synthetically trained AIs, proliferate online, the problem will feed on itself and become steadily worse, he warned. “One doomsday scenario is that if left uncontrolled for many generations, MAD could poison the data quality and diversity of the entire Internet,” Baraniuk said. “Short of this, it seems inevitable that as-to-now-unseen unintended consequences will arise from AI autophagy even in the near term. “Without enough fresh real data,” he added, “future generative models are doomed to MADness.” TRENDPOST: If AI developers come to believe that it is no longer possible to advance generative AI much beyond its current state, two things will happen. First, engineers will switch from developing new models to tweaking existing ones and continue customizing them to make off-the-shelf versions for specific industries. Second, developers will turn their obsession with AI power from generative systems to general AI, which can reason and make decisions without the need for human guidance.  That day might be closer than any of us, including AI engineers, are ready to deal with." Zgbs73                        
    • TS Tenaris stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 39.17 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TS
    • UAL United Airlines stock nice breakout setup at https://stockconsultant.com/?UAL
    • AAL American Airlines stock, good trend, watch for a range breakout at https://stockconsultant.com/?AAL
    • Date: 10th January 2025. Why is the British Pound Declining?   The Great British Pound is the worst performing currency of 2025 so far after witnessing sharp declines for 3 consecutive days. The decline is largely being triggered by the bond selloff, lack of business confidence due to the UK Autumn budget and political uncertainty. Will the trend continue?     The GBP Index Declines 2% In 2025! Why Is The Pound Dropping? The Great British Pound is the worst performing currency of the week and of the year so far. Below you can see a table showing the Pound’s performance in January 2025 so far. GBPUSD -2.25% EURGBP +1.69% GBPJPY -1.44% GBPCHF -1.42% GBPAUD -1.91% GBPCAD -2.00% A key reason for the GBP’s decline is the latest labor budget, which is driving a selloff in UK bonds. Bonds across the global market are declining, including in the US and Germany. However, the global decline is mainly due to monetary policy. The decline in UK bond yields is due to concerns regarding the UK budget, higher costs for business and investor confidence. As a result, investors are selling UK bonds, but also reducing their exposure to the Pound. Bond Selloff and Rising Yields: Higher bond yields can sometimes strengthen a currency by attracting increased investor demand. However, this effect is unlikely when rising yields result from a bond selloff driven by declining investor confidence. The UK 30-Year Bond Yields are at their highest level since 1998 and the 10-Year Bond Yields are up to the highest level since the banking crisis of 2008. Investors’ concerns are that the higher costs for business will be passed onto consumers, triggering higher stickier inflation. As a result, the Bank of England will struggle to reduce the cost of borrowing in 2025 and foreign investors will become more cautious of operations in the UK. The short-term impact is that the UK Chancellor may struggle to meet her fiscal rules. Her budget margin of £9.9bn to avoid overshooting borrowing has likely shrunk to about £1 billion due to market shifts, even before the OBR updates its forecasts. This uncertainty may force the Treasury to cut future spending plans, but the full picture won’t emerge until the OBR's March forecast. According to reports, the UK Chancellor cannot risk higher increases in taxes and will be forced to cut public spending. The GBPUSD Falls To A 60-Week Low! The GBP is struggling against all currencies, but the sharpest decline can be seen against the USD. The GBP’s decline is partially due to the incoming president, Donald Trump, who is expected to introduce Dollar-supporting measures, but also potentially impose tariffs on the UK.   The new White House administration is likely to impose new tariffs on imports from China, Canada, and Mexico. This is likely to potentially disrupt supply chains and prompt the Federal Reserve to adopt tighter monetary policy, thereby strengthening the national currency. Some experts believe the UK will face tariffs or be pressured to adopt more pro-American economic policies. This is also something the EU will likely experience. In addition to this, reports suggest that the UK Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, and Trump supporters are not on good terms, nor agree on much including on Geo-politics. Therefore, the decline is also related to concerns the UK may be put into a difficult position by the new US administration. According to analysts, Dollar strength is likely to continue throughout the year due to the new administration’s measures, but also due to a hawkish Federal Reserve. In the latest FOMC meeting minutes, the committee stated it expects interest rates to decline at a slower pace. The Federal Reserve is likely to only cut 0.50% in 2025 and may not cut until May or June. Liz Truss 2022 Or James Callaghan 1976? Is this the first Pound crisis? The GBP has experienced many "sterling crises” in the past. For example, Black Wednesday from 1992 and after Brexit in 2016. However, there have been similar crises in the past which are very similar to the current situation. For example, the Liz Truss Budget from 2022 which saw the GBP decline more than 23%. During the Sterling Crisis of 1976 the GBPUSD fell from 2.0231 to 1.5669. Both sterling crises were due to the budget, inflation and rising bond yields. Today’s issues for the GBP and UK are very similar, however, the performance of the GBP will depend on if the new SI contributions triggers lower economic activity, inflation and if the Federal Reserve indeed avoids cutting interest rates in the near future. If inflation rises it will dampen consumer demand and the Bank of England will be forced to pause any rate adjustments. As a result, the economy may contract or stall further pressuring the GBP. However, this cannot yet be certain. KPMG experts anticipate accelerated economic growth this year, supported by monetary policy and increased government spending. They project GDP to rise to 1.7%, more than doubling last year’s 0.8%. This growth, according to their estimates, will be driven by a recovery in consumer spending, expected to increase by 1.8% compared to 1.0% last year. In addition to this, if the Federal Reserve unexpectedly opts for more frequent rate cuts, the GBP and EUR are likely to benefit. When monitoring the price movement and patterns which can be seen in the exchange rate, the decline looks similar to the price movement seen in 2022, during the Truss reign. The price has now fallen below the support level from April 2024. The next support levels can be seen at 1.20391 and 1.17992. Technical analysis for the GBP can also be viewed in HFM’s latest Live Trading Session.   Key Takeaways: The Great British Pound is the worst performing currency of the year so far, having declined by more than 2.00%. A key reason for the GBP’s decline is the latest labor budget, which is driving a selloff in UK bonds. UK 30-year bond yields are at their highest since 1998, while 10-year yields have reached levels last seen during the 2008 banking crisis. Investors reduce exposure to the GBP as the US edges closer to a new president and pro-Dollar supportive measures. The UK labour government will not reconsider higher taxes but may be forced to reduce public spending. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding of how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in Leveraged Products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.