Are New Traders Who Are Successful Hated ?

[RichardHK 10]

  BlueHorseshoe said:

You'll find something like that here:

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/day-trading-scalping/13811-daytraders-do-you-know-your-enemy.html

 

I don't pretend to be any kind of an expert on these things - I'm just slowly trying to piece together a picture of how they operate within this thread.

 

BlueHorseshoe

 

Thanks mate. Will see you over there on that thread too.

 

Richard

[40draws 10]

  Ingot54 said:

IFurther, you need to understand that you are embarking on a journey that potentially can destroy your family life, and estrange you from many of the things you currently enjoy - including your health.

 

This is impossible. In six months, this is either working for me, or I pull the plug. Let's call it a "stop loss" on my pursuit of trading in stocks as a profession. Now, if in six months this isn't working, and instead of stopping I decide that I am going to drag this out for six years, then yes, all of the above could possibly come to pass. But it would be irresponsible of me, and in my opinion, plain crazy of me to continue to bang my head obsessively against the wall insisting that I was going to "make it as a trader" in spite of clear and compelling evidence to the contrary. This message board community seems to be populated by a good number of such "head-bangers."

 

I appreciate the time and effort you put into your response to me. I would respectfully point out that many of the issues you raise are non-issues for me and were covered in earlier posts of mine, e.g. I am my own boss, and I haven't had a boss since the last one fired me when I was eighteen. That was 26 years ago and I was 18.

 

Based upon your post, I could say to you the same thing to you that I said to another individual who responded to me yesterday:

 

  40draws said:

That statement of yours indicates to me that your experience and your approach to this businesss, and probably your view of life generally, is vastly different from my own. [The concerns raised in your response] are foreign to the manner in which I have approached and structured my study. Such a difference likely will lead to a vastly different result.

 

I'm not passing judgement. I am just noting a difference between us that strongly implies to me that if it were possible to graph your journey and my own from a common temporal beginning, our paths would almost immediately, and necessarily, diverge.

 

I thank you for your concern. But I think that your response is perhaps better intended for you and your situation, rather than mine.

[Ingot54 13]

  40draws said:

This is impossible. In six months, this is either working for me, or I pull the plug ...

This message board community seems to be populated by a good number of such

"head-bangers."

 

I appreciate the time and effort you put into your response to me. I would respectfully

point out that many of the issues you raise are non-issues for me and were covered in

earlier posts of mine ...

 

Based upon your post, I could say to you the same thing to you that I said to another

individual ...

 

I thank you for your concern. But I think that your response is perhaps better intended

for you and your situation, rather than mine.

Cheers, 40draws.

 

My situation isn't that I am a head-banger ... and you didn't say I was - just that the

forum has a good number of them. Quite an insight for a novice trader.

 

I am beginning to form a view here, that perhaps you have been involved in trading

before, despite your assertion that your response is relatively a new thing. You certainly

have a pretty good grip on how to handle yourself in terms of trading terminology, and

somehow, quite early in the piece you have sifted through all of the thousands of

market strategies and come up with the Wyckoff approach. That in itself is an amazing

insight, normally the discovery of a more experienced and mature trader, than that of a

complete novice.

 

Some of the attitudes you espouse are normally reserved for those who have done

their time in the markets. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you turn out to become a very

highly successful Wyckoff trader.

 

If you haven't been involved in attempting to trade before, then it seems you may have

a natural head-start on the head bangers. Your forum etiquette, for a start, is well-oiled,

and you handle yourself well, as well as managing your detractors skilfully.

 

My own situation is that I wanted something that would enable me to make the

transition from a working life, to something that would provide a cash flow in my

coming non-working life. I never had a wealth/trading for a living goal, and I am not

interested in time-based goals.

 

To that end I remain a student ... and have not set a time deadline for myself. The

deadline I have set is when I feel I have exhausted all of my opportunities to learn, and

that hasn't happened yet. On the contrary, as I am trading better than break even now, I

look forward to raising my position size, reducing risk, and improving my reward:risk.

 

I expect this process to endure, and my bottom line to mature.

 

It is good for you to be putting all of this in print - it will be sobering indeed for you ... or

the readers ... or both ... in days to come. I have a feeling you will be posting your

success, rather than your farewell. I'd be surprised if you are not already successful,

and the next 140 days will be nothing short of a delight.

 

Thanks for bringing us along with you.

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

  Quote

My situation isn't that I am a head-banger ... and you didn't say I was - just that the

forum has a good number of them. Quite an insight for a novice trader.

 

I wonder whether I am a "head-banger"? The problem is that "successful" isn't really a measured outcome. If you mean being able to turn a very modest but consistenet profit trading a limited number of markets in a limited style, then I am not a head-banger. If you mean having drawdowns and a risk profile that I am not really comfortable with, and then constantly searching for ways to improve these, then I most certainly am a head-banger. And it's been two-and-a-half years now . . . Please can someone tell me whether I should continue or quit?

 

Rather than just saying "successful", mightn't it be more helpful to have in mind a specific goal? Also, could a learning goal be more helpful than a profit goal? What if you reached the end of six months and hadn't made any money, but towards the end you felt you had gained several specific insights that would enable you to make great progress in your trading if you were to continue? At the end of six months I would be more interested in knowing what definite progress you have made than what your P&L shows.

 

  Quote

Your forum etiquette, for a start, is well-oiled,

and you handle yourself well, as well as managing your detractors skilfully.

 

I did a bit of a double-take myself when I first read 40Draws posts. More than just etiquette, there's a manifest lack of ego at play - this is always very refreshing on TL! As far as trading psychology goes, it will probably be of great service to 40Draws.

 

BlueHorseshoe

[ForexTraderX 10]

  GlassOnion said:

I read a lot of stories on here about how people had to go through this long, torturous process to become successful at trading Forex. It's so common that it almost seems like there's a union mentality about the whole thing. You know, the whole "you gotta pay your dues" and "you gotta get crapped on a lot before being successful" type of thinking. You can see written in between the lines of what people post here.

 

If someone was successful right out of the gate, I have to wonder if they should just keep it to themselves. My guess is that those who have already made up their minds that nobody can go from zero to making a living at this game in 6 months would call someone a liar who decided to share their success after actually pulling it off. After all, it's natural human psychology to tear down what something that doesn't jive with one's pre-conceived notions than to challenge their one's own beliefs.

 

nobody hates you. they either don't believe you, or they believe you, but simply know that 6 months is simply not nearly enough time to prove that one can make a living trading, regardless of method or knowledge or strategy or plan. Unless of course you've made enough to retire on for life in that 6 months. in which case, congratulations!

 

however, if you continue this for several more years, bought a house, a car or two, done some travel, maybe made a few investments outside the market with your profits....

ya, then most who you meet will not hate, but possibly admire or even envy you. and then you can tell them you made money right off the bat. and you'll be all the more special for it.

 

i do wish you much continued success however.

[4EverMaAT 10]

  karoshiman said:

..........

It has been difficult for me, as it took me some time to build a customized method which meets my risk/return parameters, in which I believe 100% and which suits my personality best. There is so much BS out there, as you have already mentioned. And in fact, like BlueHorseShoe mentioned, in today's world, there is actually too much information, so that it's difficult for a newbie to distinguish good from bad......

 

Your discontent is helping you get at the heart of the confusion. The greatest inspirations come from 'unlearning' what you think is correct. Trying to navigate through the oceans of available knowledge to find 'right knowledge' is difficult. Take the easy way: intuition, common sense, etc. You can save yourself a lot of time and effort tapping into the wisdom of others and more importantly, yourself.

 

To quote from Jed McKenna's Notebook: "The truth is always simple, and never lends itself to any debate or interpretation."

 

  40draws said:

........

"Read all the books": I've read twenty-six books, or about 4.25/week. Most of these are pretty quick reads, well-written, and thus easily and quickly understood. If a book was not easily understood, if it was poorly written, or if I found myself struggling to make sense of it, I closed it and never looked back. At least six books fit that criteria, so technically I read twenty or so books, and started but failed to finish six or so. I'm about done with the books,...................

+1. Emphasis added.

  BlueHorseshoe said:

I wonder whether I am a "head-banger"? The problem is that "successful" isn't really a measured outcome. If you mean being able to turn a very modest but consistenet profit trading a limited number of markets in a limited style, then I am not a head-banger. If you mean having drawdowns and a risk profile that I am not really comfortable with, and then constantly searching for ways to improve these, then I most certainly am a head-banger. And it's been two-and-a-half years now . . . Please can someone tell me whether I should continue or quit?

 

Rather than just saying "successful", mightn't it be more helpful to have in mind a specific goal? Also, could a learning goal be more helpful than a profit goal? What if you reached the end of six months and hadn't made any money, but towards the end you felt you had gained several specific insights that would enable you to make great progress in your trading if you were to continue? At the end of six months I would be more interested in knowing what definite progress you have made than what your P&L shows.

......

 

People asking abstract questions but expecting concrete answers. Blue is correct in wanting a clearer (more solid definition) of things like success. And I can concur that profit goal may not be the only attainable goals here, although for most speculative traders it is (or in my opinion should be) one of the primary factors that is used to evaluate the effectiveness of a trading system.

[40draws 10]

  Ingot54 said:

Quite an insight for a novice trader ... I am beginning to form a view here, that perhaps you have been involved in trading before ... despite your assertion that your response is relatively a new thing. You certainly have a pretty good grip on how to handle yourself in terms of trading terminology, and somehow, quite early in the piece you have sifted through all of the thousands of market strategies and come up with the Wyckoff approach. That in itself is an amazing insight, normally the discovery of a more experienced and mature trader, than that of a complete novice.

 

 

As I said, my interest in day trading was sparked by a chance viewing of an early morning infomercial for a day trading school. I actually contacted the school, and my conversation with the admissions counselor left me with two take aways. First, he was trying hard to sell me, and I do not respond well to the hard sell. Second, from his pitch, it became apparent that learning to "read the tape" was, according to his pitch, the critical skill component of learning to trade.

 

A google search of "tape reading" and "reading the tape," and a little discernment applied to what I was reading as I investigated the results quickly acquainted me with Wyckoff and Neill. You would I agree, I suppose, that one cannot immerse oneself in the study of a field and not quickly come to terms with the vocabulary of its participants. Less than two months ago, I was vaguely aware of "ticker tape," mostly as it related to parades. I have a much more comprehensive view of "the tape" now than I did then. Much of that has to do with the fact that I in addition to Wyckoff and Neill and Raschke, I also read a few basic textbooks on the financial markets. I knew nothing when I started. More importantly, I knew that I knew nothing and that I needed to learn what these financial markets were about before I started to engage them on an active basis.

 

As far as having "sifted through thousands of market strategies," I have really explored only one - the one that was my first introduction to this business: "Learning how to read the tape." I have encountered other systems in my reading. I have been fortunate in that I read everything with a eye toward how does it relate to what I have learned about price movement and volume.

 

I have indeed been invested in the markets for quite some time. I have Keogh accounts as well as non-retirement savings that have been invested in mutual funds for some years. As a matter of fact, my recently funded trading account began as a $60,000 investment with a Merrill Lynch broker in a group of diversified mutual funds over 13 years ago. In 13 years, that $60,000 had "grown" to $58,155.29. So I am not new to being a market participant. I am new to be an active and informed participant.

[RichardHK 10]

@40draws >...As a matter of fact, my recently funded trading account began as a $60,000 investment with a Merrill Lynch broker in a group of diversified mutual funds over 13 years ago. In 13 years, that $60,000 had "grown" to $58,155.29. So I am not new to being a market participant. I am new to be an active and informed participant.<

 

A great example of the wonders of 'buy and hold', thanks.

 

I like many others have lost significant sums of retirement money through so-called safe and conservative mutual funds. Thanks to the corrupt banking 'pros' of course. That's what drove me to trade for myself earlier this year. A monkey could have done a better job of investing, assuming 50/50 choices, than my 'personal wealth' advisors. Have what's left in cash at the moment and it's earning more than the last few years by going nowhere. What a joke.

 

Wishing you and all the greatest success.

 

Richard

Hong Kong