Are New Traders Who Are Successful Hated ?

[bobcollett 10]

[/highlight red]

yes of course i believe that a newcomer can meet the six month deadline.

I have not been a party to such an achievement but i hold the desire to succeed

in any person, as almost immeasurable.

 

What i do believe however is that the question of time/achievement in trading is too complex to be boiled down into two camps ....yes/no.

Since your insightful contributions account for almost a quarter of the posts, i imagine this subject to close to your heart and i admire that and i think that you do care.

 

I entered this game fifteen years ago with no experience of trading other than running a forex book for my companies and when i decided to switch to futures (after a couple of half decent cognacs) and reading a few books, i received a big surprise.

[highlight red]what i had read and what was happening were quite unrelated.

that is when i shut down my pc and thought the problem through.

It is after all a logical problem that requires a logical thoughtful approach.

What it demanded of me was more energy and commitment than i thought that a retired guy should give initially, but now it keeps me young.

 

Dear John,

Wise words.

I think I will borrow them for a new signature.With permission

You sound like you and I went to different schools together.

kind regards

bobc

[karoshiman 10]

 

...

 

2) Far from being "abstract," a goal of making a living is very concrete, so long as one knows what it really costs to finance one's living. There is nothing abstract about a goal of generating a minumum of $70K per year in short-term trading profits in order to fund one's existence.

 

...

 

 

 

That's right, the goal itself is crystal clear. The requirements are not. I was referring to the requirements and "what it means" to achieve that goal. I was not clear in my wording. Sorry, my bad.

 

 

 

...

 

5) What good would understand "x different methodologies" do me? I would think I only need one.

 

...

 

 

 

Yes, the problem is, you don't know which one. And you don't know whether you have to "invent" a methodology for yourself in order to achieve that goal (that includes also the intelligent tweaking of existing ones).

 

And that's also the point with reading many books, etc. You have to gain a lot of knowledge in order to be able to create a customized method which suits YOUR psychology.

 

 

Just think of the goal of becoming a surgeon or a pilot. Irrespective of the fact that you have to get degrees etc. in order to be able to work as one, no one expects that they have the abilities to work as one after only six months of studying. But so many people expect exactly that from trading.

 

If it helps, read "Traders" by Mark Fenton-O'Creevy, Nigel Nicholson, Emma Soane, and Paul Willman. It's a book about institutional traders, their mindset and the management of them. There you can read that starting traders have to learn for 6 months along experienced traders before being allowed to take their first trade and then only with strong supervision. And you can read also that trader managers state that it takes at least 2-3 years for their traders to be ready to trade completely on their own. They have to work with different experienced traders in order to see different trading styles.

 

And remember, that these are traders

 

1) who were smart enough to be recruited by the banks

 

2) who work in professional environments with many resources they can make use of

 

3) who are pointed into the right direction right from the start.

 

At least points 2) and 3) are not available for most retail traders.

 

In my opinion, the mindset, that making a living in trading is achievable easily is exactly the reason why most retail traders fail. This includes those who do not put enough time and effort into it, but also those who give up after six months as they could not reach their goal.

 

Anyway, I wish you good luck with your goal.

 

 

PS: I should note that I've underestimated trading as well and thought that it should be manageable to make a living after six to nine months... now I know better... at least for myself. I've needed about 17 months working full-time on my trading, which is still very fast from my current point of view. But the costs for this were several blown up trading accounts and a lot of pain I've went through (live trading right from the start). I sincerely wish anyone to achieve their goals faster and with much less pain.

[40draws 10]

PS: I should note that I've underestimated trading as well and thought that it should be manageable to make a living after six to nine months... now I know better... at least for myself. I've needed about 17 months working full-time on my trading, which is still very fast from my current point of view. But the costs for this were several blown up trading accounts and a lot of pain I've went through (live trading right from the start). I sincerely wish anyone to achieve their goals faster and with much less pain.

 

1) You have spent 17 months working full-time as a trader. Are you now supporting yourself financially from your trading profits, or are you drawingfrom savings or another source of income.

 

2) Why has it been so difficult for you?

[johnw 10]

Hi 40draws,

 

It is Saturday and I imagine you are replaying trading charts.

I greatly admire your enthusiasm and I am not going to pollute your mind with my

opinion or my experiences, but I am going to help you on your way with two pieces of advice.

 

1 ..do not open any windows other than the price window

2 ..do not apply anything to the price window other than horizontal lines.

 

Also, I am going to throw in a huge bonus.

If at any time you ask me for my qualifications as a Trader, I shall ignore your question.

This means that I shall never lie to you, which is an enormous bonus on an open forum and especially this one.

 

So just to recap ... no indicators .. no windows other than price ... no lines, highlights or notations other than horizontal lines on your price window.

And no BS

 

goodluck and we will talk again in five months.

[40draws 10]

If at any time you ask me for my qualifications as a Trader, I shall ignore your question.

 

I haven't asked this of anyone, nor would I. Now, if you were to tell me that I couldn't possibly succeed in a mere six months, because you yourself spent seventeen months working full-time at becoming a trader, I might ask, for the sake of clarification, if you meant you had started 17 months ago and you are still working on it, i.e. seventeen months down and now you are working on month eighteen, or if you meant it took you seventeen months from the time you started on, for example, January 1, 2007 until you finally achieved profitability in May 2008, and that since that time you have been supporting yourself primarily as a trader. That would hardly be asking for your qualifications as a trader. That is merely asking you to make your meaning plain.

 

If you tell me you are a success, I'll take you at your word. I'm not one to ask a stranger to prove anything to me. I've gotten where I am by worrying about myself, and not what the other fella is doing. I do not care nor need to know whether you or anyone else are a successful trader or merely a fifteen year old pulling my chain. Given enough interaction, I trust I could figure it out on my own without the need to ask.

 

As for charts, mine are fairly bare bones affairs. My trades are short term - most being open and closed within the same trading session, while others are held for a few days. I do have a line struck at the current session's opening trade price and also at the prior day's closing price. I also write down yesterday's high and low using a lowly pencil and wide ruled paper in a 17 cent notebook. Other than that, any notes or annotations which I think may be helpful for review are drawn after the trade is closed using a separate screenshot edited in paint. In other words, the only lines on my chart in my charting software are yesterday's close and today's open. I also use volume, and that is plotted in a subpane of the main price window.

[SIUYA 11]

the advert that appeared on this page ...

fxoro

 

Quick and easy way to trade big.....:doh:

 

40draws.....if you are wanting to just be patient, wait for the right trade setup and stick to that, then yes it can be done. It might not necessarily be scalable, it might be tough work sitting there waiting, waiting waiting, and you might not need a lot of money as margin to do it. It can all be done. Your aim is consistency.

The problem may be - can you do it. Can you sit and wait, can you focus for that setup and do nothing in the meantime, can you stand it when you lose money etc.

This is the hardest part IMHO and just one reason people are skeptical - good luck

[johnw 10]

I haven't asked this of anyone, nor would I. Now, if you were to tell me that I couldn't possibly succeed in a mere six months, ......................................................... In other words, the only lines on my chart in my charting software are yesterday's close and today's open. I also use volume, and that is plotted in a subpane of the main price window.

 

 

Excellent start 40draws.......

 

1 ... you don't owe me or anyone else an explanation of your actions or beliefs

2 ... you are here to learn and Learners ask questions .. what is your question?

[karoshiman 10]

1) You have spent 17 months working full-time as a trader. Are you now supporting yourself financially from your trading profits, or are you drawingfrom savings or another source of income.

 

2) Why has it been so difficult for you?

 

 

Yes, but I had to reduce my expenses considerably as my capital base suffered a lot during my 17 months "learning period", i.e. I was drawing from my savings during that time for living expenses and my trading.

 

But I have to say, that I have not yet proved to be able to make a living long-term as I am not yet profitable for years (see my earlier post). My approach has to prove itself in various phases of the market. Only then can I make a statement like this.

 

However, how long I or anybody else has needed to become profitable is irrelevant for someone else, as people and their requirements and possibilities differ very probably. All I've wanted to say is that one should be realistic in setting goals in trading and don't underestimate what it takes in time and effort to get where you want to be.

 

It has been difficult for me, as it took me some time to build a customized method which meets my risk/return parameters, in which I believe 100% and which suits my personality best. There is so much BS out there, as you have already mentioned. And in fact, like BlueHorseShoe mentioned, in today's world, there is actually too much information, so that it's difficult for a newbie to distinguish good from bad.

 

What we have not yet discussed is the requirements one has for making a living. If you can make a living by getting a return of 8% p.a. then you can achieve your goal maybe easier/faster than someone who needs a return of 20-30% p.a. or even more on a consistent basis to be able to make a living. That should be considered as well.

[karoshiman 10]

the advert that appeared on this page ...

fxoro

 

Quick and easy way to trade big.....:doh:

 

...

 

 

 

I love the ad!!! .... lol

[40draws 10]

Excellent start 40draws.......

 

... you are here to learn and Learners ask questions .. what is your question?

 

I'm good for now, but thank you for asking.

[bobcollett 10]

Hi 40draws

Joined August 2012

One months experience

Read all the books

Slick answer after slicker answer

Its a con.

I will say no more

bobc

[40draws 10]

...it took me some time to build a customized method which meets my risk/return parameters, in which I believe 100% and which suits my personality best...

 

That statement of yours indicates to me that your experience and your approach to this businesss, and probably your view of life generally, is vastly different from my own. With the exception of risk, the rest is foreign to the manner in which I have approached and structured my study. Such a difference likely will lead to a vastly different result.

 

I'm not passing judgement. I am just noting a difference between us that strongly implies to me that if it were possible to graph your journey and my own from a common temporal beginning, our paths would almost immediately, and necessarily, diverge.

[40draws 10]

Hi 40draws

Joined August 2012

One months experience

Read all the books

Slick answer after slicker answer

Its a con.

I will say no more

bobc

 

You never know whether I am who I say I am or a fifteen year old pulling your chain. However, I'm as unclear on the nature of the "con" with which you are apparently charging me as I am with the source of your "flabbergastedness" that resulted from one of my earlier posts. If I am not mistaken, you are also the one who said I was heaping disrespectful remarks on DbPhoenix. I insist that all of my exchanges with DbPhoenix have been nothing short of respectful. I do not understand your attitude toward me. It is one thing to disagree with me, and if you think me on a fool's errand, so be it. You're entitled to your opinion. But to call me a con borders upon hostility.

 

"Joined August 2012, one months experience": As I said, I'm technically now in week six, and we all have to start somewhere. My interest in the markets had previously been limited to more or less blindly investing in mutual funds in my Keough. A chance viewing of an infomercial for a day trading school as I flipped through the tv channels early, early one morning was the catalyst that started my investigation of the possibility of trading actively for an income. I actually called that school that day. The experience of that phone call led me to decide that I needed to learn as much as I could on my own first, as my sense from talking to their "admission counselor" was that he was a con.

 

"Read all the books": I've read twenty-six books, or about 4.25/week. Most of these are pretty quick reads, well-written, and thus easily and quickly understood. If a book was not easily understood, if it was poorly written, or if I found myself struggling to make sense of it, I closed it and never looked back. At least six books fit that criteria, so technically I read twenty or so books, and started but failed to finish six or so. I'm about done with the books, however. I am awaiting a twenty-seventh, Techniques of Tape Reading, based upon a review of this work by DbPhoenix. It should be here Monday evening, and I would estimate that I will have finished a first read no later than Wednesday before I lay me down to bed.

 

"Slick answer after slick answer": I'm flabbergasted. Well, perhaps not flabbergasted, but at least slightly bewildered.

[RichardHK 10]

... ... "Read all the books": I've read twenty-six books, or about 4.25/week. Most of these are pretty quick reads, well-written, and thus easily and quickly understood. If a book was not easily understood, if it was poorly written, or if I found myself struggling to make sense of it, I closed it and never looked back. At least six books fit that criteria, so technically I read twenty or so books, and started but failed to finish six or so. I'm about done with the books, however. I am awaiting a twenty-seventh, Techniques of Tape Reading, ... ...

 

Would love to see a list of those books, including the six you didn't like. Any chance?

 

I have read 'Techniques of Tape Reading' which I found to be a disappointment as not really much in there about tape reading actually. Not much good anywhere on tape reading which is possibly due to fact that so many algos are playing games. What we need is a book on 'The games HFT algos play'.

 

Good luck with your quest. For what it's worth I do think you should set aside more than six months before deciding to continue or not. All depends on your goals of course, and you also need a lot of live experience in that time with real money to really know if you can do it.

 

Richard

Hong Kong

[40draws 10]

I read a lot of stories on here about how people had to go through this long, torturous process to become successful at trading Forex. It's so common that it almost seems like there's a union mentality about the whole thing. You know, the whole "you gotta pay your dues" and "you gotta get crapped on a lot before being successful" type of thinking. You can see written in between the lines of what people post here.

 

If someone was successful right out of the gate, I have to wonder if they should just keep it to themselves. My guess is that those who have already made up their minds that nobody can go from zero to making a living at this game in 6 months would call someone a liar who decided to share their success after actually pulling it off. After all, it's natural human psychology to tear down what something that doesn't jive with one's pre-conceived notions than to challenge their one's own beliefs.

 

When I first responded to this discusion, I have to admit that I had not really read the author's initial post as thoughtfully or as literally as I should have. Instead, what sparked my attention and prompted me to participate was the phrase "from zero to making a living at this game in 6 months." I ignored the thrust of the question posed.

 

Had I read it thoughtfully, and actually answered the question, I would have said something along the lines that "of course no one would hate someone for succeeding - after all, I take one person's success to indicate to me that my success is also possible." However, the orientation of many respondents seems to be the opposite: "I have been doing this for years, and I haven't been able to succeed, so how dare you think you might be able to do in six months what I have been unable to do in six years."

 

I have not made any claim to be making a living at the trading business. I simply said I was a new trader, and I was giving myself six months either to show myself this is a viable business for me or not. Given the tenor of most of the responses, the original author's suspicians have been proven to be well-founded.

[40draws 10]

40draws ... yes it can be done... good luck

 

 

40draws reading between the lines - Thank you, SIUYA.

[goodoboy 10]

I have found three to be worth studying, and five or six worth reserving for further study.

 

5) What good would understand "x different methodologies" do me? I would think I only need one.

 

Here's a question I'd pose to the community as a whole: Forget about trading for a living - who among us has ever taken any money out of their trading account that was profit, and not merely part of the initial funding, and then used those profits for anything, whether paying a bill, buying a bag a groceries, or indulging in a personal product purchase, or anything at all? And who has never withdrawn even one penny of profit, perhaps instead throwing good money after bad to keep the trading account open as they chase this apparently elusive goal of "trading for a living?"

 

Thanks for feedback 40draw, I agree with you. One method for a newbie should well good enough. I am also learning price action, but mainly focus on my trading plan for now.

 

Do you mind sharing the three books to be worth studying?

 

I have never taken money out the account for profit as I just started trading future about 4 months ago actively.

[goodoboy 10]

That's right, the goal itself is crystal clear. The requirements are not. I was referring to the requirements and "what it means" to achieve that goal. I was not clear in my wording. Sorry, my bad.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, the problem is, you don't know which one. And you don't know whether you have to "invent" a methodology for yourself in order to achieve that goal (that includes also the intelligent tweaking of existing ones).

 

And that's also the point with reading many books, etc. You have to gain a lot of knowledge in order to be able to create a customized method which suits YOUR psychology.

 

 

Just think of the goal of becoming a surgeon or a pilot. Irrespective of the fact that you have to get degrees etc. in order to be able to work as one, no one expects that they have the abilities to work as one after only six months of studying. But so many people expect exactly that from trading.

 

If it helps, read "Traders" by Mark Fenton-O'Creevy, Nigel Nicholson, Emma Soane, and Paul Willman. It's a book about institutional traders, their mindset and the management of them. There you can read that starting traders have to learn for 6 months along experienced traders before being allowed to take their first trade and then only with strong supervision. And you can read also that trader managers state that it takes at least 2-3 years for their traders to be ready to trade completely on their own. They have to work with different experienced traders in order to see different trading styles.

 

And remember, that these are traders

 

1) who were smart enough to be recruited by the banks

 

2) who work in professional environments with many resources they can make use of

 

3) who are pointed into the right direction right from the start.

 

At least points 2) and 3) are not available for most retail traders.

 

In my opinion, the mindset, that making a living in trading is achievable easily is exactly the reason why most retail traders fail. This includes those who do not put enough time and effort into it, but also those who give up after six months as they could not reach their goal.

 

Anyway, I wish you good luck with your goal.

 

 

PS: I should note that I've underestimated trading as well and thought that it should be manageable to make a living after six to nine months... now I know better... at least for myself. I've needed about 17 months working full-time on my trading, which is still very fast from my current point of view. But the costs for this were several blown up trading accounts and a lot of pain I've went through (live trading right from the start). I sincerely wish anyone to achieve their goals faster and with much less pain.

 

This is a very good post to read.

 

I don't recommend to start something like trading and expect consistence in trading in 6 months. However, think of how far you come in 6 months. I think its all about having the right practice as Db mention to me. Because I wasted 3 months studying the wrong thing with all this indicator stuff when the data was right in my face. I then started trading live and I lost real money. I think back and that was silly. Now I trade sim until I my plan and structure is consistent and profitable.

[40draws 10]

Thanks for feedback 40draw, I agree with you. One method for a newbie should well good enough. I am also learning price action, but mainly focus on my trading plan for now.

 

Do you mind sharing the three books to be worth studying?

 

I have never taken money out the account for profit as I just started trading future about 4 months ago actively.

 

Hi goodoboy,

 

Here is a list I posted earlier:

 

Here is what I've been reading:

 

Understanding Wall Street, Jeffrey Little

 

Studies in Tape Reading, Richard Wyckoff

 

Tape Reading & Market Tactics, Humphrey B. Neil

 

In adition to these, the books I've read that I have kept to read again are Wyckoff's Stockmarket Technique, vol. 1 & 2, Stock Market Profits by Schabacker, How to Make Money in Stocks, by Wiliam O'Neil, Reminiscences of a Stock Operator by Edwin Lefevre, and How to Trade in Stocks by Jesse Livermore.

 

The Jeffrey Little book is a basic textbook, e.g. what is a share of stock, how Wall Street works, the role of investment banks, etc.

 

The Wyckoff and Neil books are similar, in that both explain price movements in terms of the relationship between price and volume. Neil is not an advocate of day trading, whereas Wyckoff presents it as a potential way for someone to make a profession out of wall street operations alone. In adition to these two books, I found a website by a trader named Linda Raschke where she had a couple of articles, on on Tape Reading, that sort of helped point me in how to make a practical start with the Wyckoff and Neil method. I'll hunt down the links later and post them here so long as it would not violate the traderslaboratory rules. I'll send a PM to the moderator and ask first.

 

I am taking a small draw tomorrow from last week's activity. I have been trading using my smart phone, and I want to buy a lap top and set it up with mobile broadband. My current business is such that I am traveling about 90% of the workday which puts me out of the office for 100% of the trading session on most days. My business plan calls for all future trading related expenditures to be funded out of trading profits. This first draw will pay for a trading laptop, accessories (car charger, case, etc.), and mobile broadband service from September through January.

[goodoboy 10]

Hi goodoboy,

 

Here is a list I posted earlier:

 

 

 

The Jeffrey Little book is a basic textbook, e.g. what is a share of stock, how Wall Street works, the role of investment banks, etc.

 

The Wyckoff and Neil books are similar, in that both explain price movements in terms of the relationship between price and volume. Neil is not an advocate of day trading, whereas Wyckoff presents it as a potential way for someone to make a profession out of wall street operations alone. In adition to these two books, I found a website by a trader named Linda Raschke where she had a couple of articles, on on Tape Reading, that sort of helped point me in how to make a practical start with the Wyckoff and Neil method. I'll hunt down the links later and post them here so long as it would not violate the traderslaboratory rules. I'll send a PM to the moderator and ask first.

 

I am taking a small draw tomorrow from last week's activity. I have been trading using my smart phone, and I want to buy a lap top and set it up with mobile broadband. My current business is such that I am traveling about 90% of the workday which puts me out of the office for 100% of the trading session on most days. My business plan calls for all future trading related expenditures to be funded out of trading profits. This first draw will pay for a trading laptop, accessories (car charger, case, etc.), and mobile broadband service from September through January.

 

Thanks, you should trade ES futures. I trade it and I like it. Better than searching for stocks.

[Whidbey Island 10]

If your a new trader and successful which statement is true?

 

1. Another trader is teaching & mentoring you

2. You are a new trader learning on your own & successful

 

If your new & successful however not learning from another trader I would say keep your mouth shut, get your ego in check because more than likely your a "flash in the pan" so to speak. A person with success early on without much training the odds are against you & I don't hate you because the market(s) need order flow (Thank you). I thank you because eventually you will be order flow.... :missy:

[40draws 10]

Would love to see a list of those books, including the six you didn't like. Any chance?

 

I did post and re-post a list of the ones I found to make sense to me. Of course, the fact that they make sense to someone who knew nothing six weeks ago, and may now only think he knows something, should give you or anyone pause in taking up a book or method on my recommendation.

 

I considered your request that I names the books I didn't like, and after some thought, I'd rather not say. After all, to be fair, posting those titles would imply that I was making a critical judgment on their value, and I am not qualified to say anything other than the books I've listed above "made sense" to me, while others I've not mentioned by name left me unclear, uneasy, unsure, at times a bit baffled, and at others completely confused. That likely says as much or more about me than it does about them.

[40draws 10]

If your a new trader and successful which statement is true?

 

1. Another trader is teaching & mentoring you

2. You are a new trader learning on your own & successful

 

If your new & successful however not learning from another trader I would say keep your mouth shut, get your ego in check because more than likely your a "flash in the pan" so to speak. A person with success early on without much training the odds are against you & I don't hate you because the market(s) need order flow (Thank you). I thank you because eventually you will be order flow.... :missy:

 

I assume you're directing this at me, and I don't know why, unless you're a trading mentor who sells mentoring and training services, and the idea of someone teaching himself to do this is bad for business.

 

Whatever the reason, you obviously have not read my posts. I am learning from other traders, primarily Richard Wyckoff and Humphrey Neill. Again, had you read my posts, then that is information you would have known.

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

What we need is a book on 'The games HFT algos play'.

 

You'll find something like that here:

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/day-trading-scalping/13811-daytraders-do-you-know-your-enemy.html

 

I don't pretend to be any kind of an expert on these things - I'm just slowly trying to piece together a picture of how they operate within this thread.

 

BlueHorseshoe

[Ingot54 13]

 

I am taking a small draw tomorrow from last week's activity. I have been trading using my

smart phone, and I want to buy a lap top and set it up with mobile broadband. My current

business is such that I am traveling about 90% of the workday which puts me out of the

office for 100% of the trading session on most days. My business plan calls for all future

trading related expenditures to be funded out of trading profits. This first draw will pay for

a trading laptop, accessories (car charger, case, etc.), and mobile broadband service

from September through January.

I worry when I read something like the above.

 

Two things:

 

Years ago, when I was 18 yrs old, I bought a lottery ticket for $2. The draw yielded me a $20 prize ... $18 profit. This was in the late

1960's. My income was $36/week at that time, and so ... that early success in my gambling career started me on the path to near

ruin, as I attempted many times, and in many forms, to emulate that feat over and over.

 

You can read between the lines on that.

 

Secondly, you can not chase two rabbits - one of them is going to evade your efforts to trap them. Either your business is going to

suffer, or your trading is going to suffer, and if you have one, your family is going to suffer from having an absentee partner/dad.

 

Who is paying for your time, while you are out of the office, and attending to trading matters?

 

Yourself? Good.

Your boss? Hmmm.

 

If it's your boss, wouldn't you serve him/your conscience better by looking at your trading education in your own time?

Just a thought. I invite you to tell me to mind my own business, because this really is none of my concerns at all.

 

My message is to encourage you to persevere, and I congratulate you for having the insight to establish some sort of structure in

your approach. I would add a rider, that your time-frame for establishing success is very tight, putting more pressure on you than

you may realise. As the 6-month deadline approaches, you might need to extend that, if you are making measurable headway.

 

Further, you need to understand that you are embarking on a journey that potentially can destroy your family life, and estrange you

from many of the things you currently enjoy - including your health.

 

I am certain you have taken these issues into account, and my words are already redundant in your case. But trading is every

bit a full-time pursuit, in my experience, and if you want to have any quality of life outside of this occupation, it is likely that you

will eventually move to the higher time-frames, if you are not already working at that level.

 

Certainly I am no trader's shining light, but these are my observations.

 

Good luck with your journey, and thanks for sharing your vision and story.