Are New Traders Who Are Successful Hated ?

[johnw 10]

Depends on what you mean by "very". Been doing this for 20yrs, and not for my own amusement.

 

As for being a teacher in how to make money trading, judge for yourself. Tour the Wyckoff Forum.

 

Db

 

gm Db,

 

Some people are born to teach and I am not one of those people.

But I have a healthy curiosity for situations that are foreign to me in

order to reduce their foreignness.

 

And so my question to you Db is "what motivates you to teach"

I am not interested in the cliche "those that can't resort to teaching"

I would like to think that we are beyond that point.

 

"what motivates you to teach"

[DbPhoenix 42]

gm Db,

 

Some people are born to teach and I am not one of those people.

But I have a healthy curiosity for situations that are foreign to me in

order to reduce their foreignness.

 

And so my question to you Db is "what motivates you to teach"

I am not interested in the cliche "those that can't resort to teaching"

I would like to think that we are beyond that point.

 

"what motivates you to teach"

 

Nobody lives forever. And I've been a teacher for more than 40yrs. What motivates anybody to do what they do? And teaching this is no skin off my nose. The idea that enabling somebody else's success somehow inhibits my own is idiotic (I always get a kick out of those who refuse to share their strategies and tactics because then they won't be worth anything anymore). I still get thanks from people who got out of the market in 2000 before it collapsed.

 

I may have had it easier than most because I learned to trade before the internet and before candlesticks and, to a large extent, before indicators.The first book I read was How To Make Money In Stocks, most of which was "borrowed" from Wyckoff and Schabacker thru Neill and Edwards. Therefore, I had very little to unlearn.

 

I sympathize with those who are trying to learn to trade these days because they think that the way things are are the way they've always been. They can't imagine trading without indicators and candles and "the book" and all the rest of it. The idea of trading from a chart with nothing on it but price is close to terrifying. But it helps to get to the central question: why does price go up and down? There's no shortage of message-board traders who've been at this for years who can't answer that question. And a not insignificant number of them are vendors:)

 

And it doesn't matter if it's ES or NQ or oil or copper or Forex or ETFs or whatever as long as the movement is determined by the balance between demand and supply. Unfortunately, few people understand how to determine this. So they fail. And with all the indicators and the internet and the software and discount brokers and so on, the failure rate now is pretty much the same as its always been (I'm sure you've noticed the bitterness and anger that too often characterize message boards; why would successful people behave that way?). But there are still those few out of a hundred who will get it.

 

Db

Edited August 14, 2012 by DbPhoenix
Correct spelling

[goodoboy 10]

I am new to trading ES. And I think if you have a plan and LOTS of advice (thank you TL) from the beginning you will be fine. I also, think that simple for beginners is the key.

 

Also, paper trading with reachable goal before live trading is important. I am paper trading until I know what the heck I am doing.

[goodoboy 10]

Nobody lives forever. And I've been a teacher for more than 40yrs. What motivates anybody to do what they do? And teaching this is no skin off my nose. The idea that enabling somebody else's success somehow inhibits my own is idiotic (I always get a kick out of those who refuse to share their strategies and tactics because then they won't be worth anything anymore). I still get thanks from people who got out of the market in 2000 before it collapsed.

 

I may have had it easier than most because I learned to trade before the internet and before candlesticks and, to a large extent, before indicators.The first book I read was How To Make Money In Stocks, most of which was "borrowed" from Wyckoff and Schabacker thru Neill and Edwards. Therefore, I had very little to unlearn.

 

I sympathize with those who are trying to learn to trade these days because they think that the way things are are the way they've always been. They can't imaging trading without indicators and candles and "the book" and all the rest of it. The idea of trading from a chart with nothing on it but price is close to terrifying. But it helps to get to the central question: why does price go up and down? There's no shortage of message-board traders who've been at this for years who can't answer that question. And a not insignificant number of them are vendors:)

 

And it doesn't matter if it's ES or NQ or oil or copper or Forex or ETFs or whatever as long as the movement is determined by the balance between demand and supply. Unfortunately, few people understand how to determine this. So they fail. And with all the indicators and the internet and the software and discount brokers and so on, the failure rate now is pretty much the same as its always been (I'm sure you've noticed the bitterness and anger that too often characterize message boards; why would successful people behave that way?). But there are still those few out of a hundred who will get it.

 

Db

 

You are right. There is SO much out there that steals a newbie focus. I dunno, I am with you, I will just watch the price action and learn this first.

 

I think new traders focus on the profit first, its a big mistake. Focus on the skill and make it simple, then move toward a more define method.

 

The biggest mistake i made was using my real cash from the beginning. By all means, do not do this.

[johnw 10]

................................. What motivates anybody to do what they do? ..................................get it.

 

Db

 

Thank you Db, I appreciate the time you took to explain your actions.

 

Incidentally, I don't think that it is difficult to understand what motivates people,

and by and large it has little to do with their self appraisals ... quite the opposite in many/most cases.

[SpecTrade 10]

Not meant to be slick. Some people are quicker on the uptake than others. And some are more dedicated than others. But what with replay, one can pack years of experience into six months. So, if he has the will, yes, he can learn what he needs to learn in six months.

 

Db

 

Absolutely! If only one could just trade the way he learn, the way he designed his plan and MM. That would bring many to success.

But no, after some successful trading we start to wonder:

- that free stuff works, but I wonder how much better would work that paid stuff!

- my free plan is ok, but maybe it sucks against some pro charging $$$ for his plan.

- my MM isn't stupid, but hey, the one for 2500$ seems to be really sophisticated and "tailored" just for me maybe, that would bring me edge.

- and hey, all these people talk about edge - maybe just maybe I need to educate myself further while I'm trading my way.

 

And so it goes. Vendors with shitty strategies, indis, crazy or too simple MM system, mechanical systems, grid traders, trend followers, reversal seekers, and the holy grail hidden perhaps somewhere between Gann, Elliot and Harmonic Patters, etc, etc. - all this starts to slowly screw the new trader's head to the point that he himself develops various systems and strategies which not only perform much worse than his original, but some actually prevent him from entering trade where he supposed to, because this+that+these 2 indis don't agree = no trade. And then bang,:haha: trend breaks loose, and it goes and goes. "Ah, catch it next time". The next time comes, and the next time one enters various orders based on various strategies and (god prohibit) multiplying it on various markets "so just to diversify" (big BS). then bammm! range, range, range, wild markets, losses. :angry:And then...ah I need to review my strategies, what's going on? I need a week off, clear my mind. Come back to see that again there was simple maybe single entry in a single market and trend goes for 500-800 pips. :doh:OK, ok, be good boy now. Fck the others, I will do what I did originally. And all is fine and peaceful and probably profitable, until ... another idea from another guru or just a guy comes to our mind and plays tricks on us.:helloooo:

 

So yeah, the best strategies come early on, they could be sharpen. but often people just abandon them.... and pay heavily for this.:crap:

But we all want you forex intraday guys to be successful, you know? Especially if we are your brokers, you know? :rofl:

[Colonel B 10]

I agree with the Dd guy. If you are not positive on your account in 6 months or less find a different something. If you got a job with a prop shop they aren't going to allow you to lose their money for 90+ days. If someone hates you because you are making a good living then chances are they are just haters.

[40draws 10]

How fortuitous for me to have found this discussion!

 

I have five months before I need to be able to make a living at this trading business. I have read a good number of books on trading and the financial markets, and I have managed to find three that struck a chord with me, and to which I have therefore devoted much time to studying: one is a basic "textbook" on Wall Street and the financial markets. The other two are examinations of the manner in which the price of a security moves as Wall Street transacts its business.

 

I have also spent many hours over the last four or five weeks to studying charts at night after the market closes, as well as to observing as much real time market activity as my current engagement allows.

 

Of course, "much time to studying" and "many hours observing" are relative. I infer from what others have said that many would find my description of my having devoted "much time" and "many hours" to learning this trading business to be laughable when compared to the amount of time that they themselves have devoted to learning to trade for a living. I am only about a month into this endeavor (my investigations commenced on July 13th 2012, to be exact), and I have this week started to take my first trades. I am hoping that six months proves to be sufficient for my preparation.

[ckait 10]

5 months? if thats all your going to give yourself quit now or just wire me the dough.

[DbPhoenix 42]

I have also spent many hours over the last four or five weeks to studying charts at night after the market closes, as well as to observing as much real time market activity as my current engagement allows.

 

To what purpose? What were your objectives when you studied these charts? What did you learn from the exercise?

 

I am only about a month into this endeavor (my investigations commenced on July 13th 2012, to be exact), and I have this week started to take my first trades.

 

Unless you have a well-tested and consistently profitable trading plan, you should stop immediately. Otherwise you will likely only waste the next five months.

 

Db

[40draws 10]

5 months? if thats all your going to give yourself quit now or just wire me the dough.

 

Technically, it will be six months, with one down and five to go. I am confident that that shall be sufficient.

[karoshiman 10]

It's amazing how many people think that you have to "get it" in trading after six months... how many people think the same when it comes to other professions?

[ckait 10]

Well its setteled, Im going to get into the "Educating Traders" buisness ive just decided. And what im going to teach are 101 ways you will surely loose your ass in the futures market.The document I will produce will save people tons of cash!!!!! And the reason I know I started out doing all the things I will teach not to do. I will sell this vast and extensive knowlede base for the low low fee of $25.00 thats USD. PM me if you want a copy Im not even kidding Ill have it done in a week. Ill even talk to you Via skype if you want and trade at the same time.

[jackmcmillan 10]

Are new successful traders hated? I don't know since I haven't met any. I HAVE met some new traders who were lucky for a while, then lost all their money.

 

Trading ,like any profession, takes time to learn - "one-night wonders" don't stay in trading very long. Don't confuse luck with success, they are NOT the same!

 

I wonder if the author of this article would go to a dentist or doctor who felt "lucky"? How about a heart or brain surgeon who's just studied for just 6 months but feels "lucky"?

 

I'm not implying that trading is equivalent to brain surgery, but both skills require time to develop. There are NO "successful" new traders - just a few lucky ones. The ones that survive long enough to actually learn how to trade correctly will eventually go on to be successful.

[4EverMaAT 10]

I find the OPs question very interesting. Often times you see jealousy from people who are surprised that people somehow figured it out sooner. Maybe it isn't the fact that they didn't spend all their time chasing superstitions and assumptions. They 'cut to the chase' and only spent their time on systems that made sense. If they happen to find or develop their own profitable system in a short amount of time, then good for them. It almost reminds me of the Apple vs Samsung patent wars.

 

There was a thread recently where someone asked for specific advice on a profitable trading system. A few of the posters blasted the guy for wanting to be spoon fed. I would think anyone who wants to target something objective, would want objective steps to get there. Does it really matter where you start if the destination is the same?

 

.......

Unless you have a well-tested and consistently profitable trading plan, you should stop immediately. Otherwise you will likely only waste the next five months.

 

Db

 

I love this quote. Betting on luck and chasing superstition is not going to somehow improve your chances of having a working system. The system must work at the core levels.

[DbPhoenix 42]

Well its setteled, Im going to get into the "Educating Traders" buisness ive just decided. And what im going to teach are 101 ways you will surely loose your ass in the futures market.The document I will produce will save people tons of cash!!!!! And the reason I know I started out doing all the things I will teach not to do. I will sell this vast and extensive knowlede base for the low low fee of $25.00 thats USD. PM me if you want a copy Im not even kidding Ill have it done in a week. Ill even talk to you Via skype if you want and trade at the same time.

 

I'd ask to be put on your list but, unfortunately, these accounts and lists always end up being more or less the same, since losers make the same mistakes over and over again, and have for centuries. And they will likely continue to do so for centuries more. If we last that long.

 

I've encountered this problem repeatedly:

The typical trader will do most anything to avoid creating definition and rules because he does not want to take responsibility for the results of his trading. If he knows exactly what he is going to do and under what conditions, then he would have something by which to measure his performance, thus making himself accountable to himself. This is exactly what most traders don't want to do, preferring instead to keep their relationship with the market somewhat mysterious.

 

This creates a real psychological paradox for traders, because the only way to learn how to trade effectively is to make oneself accountable by creating structure: but, with accountability comes responsibility. (Mark Douglas)

Db

[40draws 10]

To what purpose? What were your objectives when you studied these charts? What did you learn from the exercise?

 

 

 

Unless you have a well-tested and consistently profitable trading plan, you should stop immediately. Otherwise you will likely only waste the next five months.

 

Db

 

1) I've learned that Will Rogers was right, that I should buy some good stock and hold it 'till it goes up, and if it doesn't go up, I shouldn't buy it. Which is to say I have been looking to find stocks were buyers seem to be overwhelming sellers, and then to identify patterns that suggest buyers will continue to outstrip sellers. I buy, and if it doesn't go up, I sell (the next best thing to not having bought it at all).

 

2) I understand the importance of a trading/business plan. I feel I have the basic structure of a solid plan in place. As a business plan, it is solid enough to structure my activity, and flexible enough to accomodate growth and change in my knowledge and abilities.

 

PS I'm a quick study, and have been since I was a young'n. I do not like wasting time, and five months would be an inexcusable amount of time to waste given how little we get to begin with!

[johnw 10]

.......................................

I've encountered this problem repeatedly:

The typical trader will do most anything to avoid creating definition and rules because he does not want to take responsibility for the results of his trading. If he knows exactly what he is going to do and under what conditions, then he would have something by which to measure his performance, thus making himself accountable to himself. This is exactly what most traders don't want to do, preferring instead to keep their relationship with the market somewhat mysterious.

 

This creates a real psychological paradox for traders, because the only way to learn how to trade effectively is to make oneself accountable by creating structure: but, with accountability comes responsibility. (Mark Douglas)

Db

 

"This paradox describes other traders, but most definitely it does not apply to me"

 

And so this attitude brings us to 'self delusion versus reality' which is another layer of the onion of life that must be peeled away.

[bobcollett 10]

1) I've learned that Will Rogers was right, that I should buy some good stock and hold it 'till it goes up, and if it doesn't go up, I shouldn't buy it!

 

Hi 40draws

Maybe DbPhoenix can help you? I ,for one ,am too flabbergasted to respond further.

regards

bobc

[DbPhoenix 42]

1) I've learned that Will Rogers was right, that I should buy some good stock and hold it 'till it goes up, and if it doesn't go up, I shouldn't buy it. Which is to say I have been looking to find stocks were buyers seem to be overwhelming sellers, and then to identify patterns that suggest buyers will continue to outstrip sellers. I buy, and if it doesn't go up, I sell (the next best thing to not having bought it at all).

 

What procedures do you follow to find these stocks? What patterns are you using make these determinations? What statistics have you compiled to tell you whether or not these procedures and determinations are helping you to reach your objectives?

 

2) I understand the importance of a trading/business plan. I feel I have the basic structure of a solid plan in place. As a business plan, it is solid enough to structure my activity, and flexible enough to accomodate growth and change in my knowledge and abilities

 

Not intending to be harsh, but feelings don't have anything to do with it. What data -- including statistics -- do you have to show that your plan is "solid"? What exactly is your trading plan?

 

Db

[bobcollett 10]

 

 

 

Not intending to be harsh, but feelings don't have anything to do with it. What data -- including statistics -- do you have to show that your plan is "solid"? What exactly is your trading plan?

 

Db

 

Hi DbPhoenix,

You know, with all the abuse and nasty remarks layered on you,your reply is always polite and positive

Well done.

kind regards

bobc

ds

[DbPhoenix 42]

Hi DbPhoenix,

You know, with all the abuse and nasty remarks layered on you,your reply is always polite and positive

Well done.

kind regards

bobc

ds

 

Well thank you, Bob. May the road rise to meet you and the wind be at your back.

 

Db

[40draws 10]

What procedures do you follow to find these stocks? What patterns are you using make these determinations? What statistics have you compiled to tell you whether or not these procedures and determinations are helping you to reach your objectives?

 

 

 

Not intending to be harsh, but feelings don't have anything to do with it. What data -- including statistics -- do you have to show that your plan is "solid"? What exactly is your trading plan?

 

Db

 

The list I am trading consists of active stocks and ETF's. I am looking for stocks that are gapping open, and my preference, for now, is given to those that gap higher.

 

Having read a good number of your posts yesterday and today, I would say that one of patterns I look for is similar to what you call a "hinge." Wyckoff's Studies in Tape Reading, by the way, is one of the books that I have been reading and re-reading. I am looking for small consolidations where I can take a position for the next move higher, while allowing for a loss cut level that is usually small relative to the potential profit should the move continue. I would say that I am using gaps to indicate that the supply/demand balance has tipped in favor of the buyer, and I then look for additional evidence that there are sufficient sellers trapped on the wrong side of that imbalance to sustain the move for a profit.

 

I don't take you as being harsh at all, and you are correct, feelings have nothing to do with it. Certainly a poor word choice on my part. As for data, my sample is regrettably small. Hence, my acknowledgent that revisions may be necessary as I gain experience, knowledge, and ability.

[40draws 10]

Hi 40draws

Maybe DbPhoenix can help you? I ,for one ,am too flabbergasted to respond further.

regards

bobc

 

I'm not sure from whence your "flabbergastedness" comes.

[40draws 10]

Hi DbPhoenix,

You know, with all the abuse and nasty remarks layered on you,your reply is always polite and positive

Well done.

kind regards

bobc

ds

 

I re-read my original response to DbPhoenix, and I do not see anything I have written which could be construed as "abuse and nasty remarks." I was trying respectfully to participate in this discussion by answering the questions he directed at me to the best of my ability.