Learn How To Trade

[Predictor 11]

I know this isn't going to sit well with most -- especially the vendors here who like to attack me -- but one of the most important lessons I learned as a trader is that it is not possible to learn how to trade! This is why I don't claim to teach others how to trade. Something that can't be learned surely can't be taught!

 

One of the big breakthroughs I had in my performance was when I recognized that the effort in spent on learning how to trade was a mistake. In order to learn anything then it must be finite and it must be static. So, if we are to learn anything (completely) then it must be completely contained and never changing. If it changes or if we can't completely bound it (constrain) it then it is not possible to know it completely which is exactly what "learning to do something" implies.

 

Most professions are both unbounded and changing. There is no "learning how to program" either. It is not possible to learn how to program because if one truly learned how to program then it means (to me) that you can program anything in the world under any possible scenario. Nobody can do this! There are many specializations and new develops on a regular basis.

 

Let me give another example, it is not possible to, in general, "learn how to be a doctor". It only may appear that way. But, do you think the doctors of today would be able to practice medicine 200 years from now without additional training? Surely not...A good example can be found even today, I was reading some months ago that heart surgeons who had a decade of education and had expected to make 300k-500k per year were unable to find work because stints had replaced most of the work they would do. Many of these surgeons were going back to school to get additional education.

 

So, what does a trader who claims to have learned how to trade really mean? Really its not a objective measure but a measure ones own self confidence. A measure of how competent they feel and capable.

 

Let me back up and also say that I have produced materials on developing specific types of skills that have helped me. There are specific types of skills that one can develop, and that can take off years from the learning process.

 

The psychology that the average trader has, and promoted by average vendors, is so much different then the psychology that I believe the elite performer embraces. My psychology is one of a process. It is not a learned but a learning.

 

Instead of focusing the idea of "learning how to trade": focus on taking great opportunities. Focus on the process. Focus on listening to the market. Focus on building skills.

 

As well, there is no single way to trade. I trade in multiple paradigms, on multiple levels..

 

As I encouraged my students in my newsletter, focus on the opportunity.. focus on the process..

 

If I think about "learning how to trade", I draw a blank but I know how to find opportunity in the markets on a regular basis.

---

http://themarketpredictor.com

Edited August 5, 2012 by Predictor

[henryduncan12 10]

Thanks to share some useful points about forex trading. These tips are very helpful for new traders to follow it during trading and avoid lose.

[steve46 12]

Markets can be characterized...that characterization is simply a model of how each market acts...once you have that, you can develop a plan to trade it...

 

A person who says it can't be taught is a person who A). Doesn't have the skills to teach it. or B.) Doesn't really know how to do it consistently

 

If we take the ES market for example, the characterization that works currently is based on the concept of balance and imbalance....simply put, balanced markets move in a range, while imbalanced markets trend....this happens on all time frames and once you know that you can trade responsively (long at the bottom of the range, short at the top) or initiatively (long or short as the market breaks out, and starts to trend)....

 

What can't be taught is basic aptitude....but the skills based on that simple analysis (above) can be learned if one has the talent, the basic intelligence and motivation to learn it....

 

Amazing isn't it that the gentleman takes multiple paragraphs to explain what he can't do.... while have just put it in writing here in a few words....

 

Good luck folks....lol

Edited August 7, 2012 by MadMarketScientist
off topic

[steve46 12]

Generally speaking the folks I work with are good people....working hard and trying to stay employed...thats why they are sent to me...unlike you they are serious about this profession

 

and I leave the small comments to you as they seem to be your specialty...

 

Sincerely

Edited August 6, 2012 by steve46

[zdo 20]

Generally speaking the folks I work with are good people....working hard and trying to stay employed...thats why they are sent to me...unlike you they are serious about this profession

 

and I leave the small comments to you as they seem to be your specialty...

 

 

hm, Your students are sent to you? …they’re not directly paying the bill ?… so you have to treat them with a certain level of courtesy and respect or those footing the bill won’t send or refer anyone else ever ? … The way you’re posting on TL lately smells of progressively intensified frustration ‘displacement’ to me …

 

Seems you’re left with a choice here – treat your vendor peers and members who voluntarily interact with you up here with a modicum of the same respect or continue to lose more and more of the credibility you previously established.

 

Put another way …

Vendor Vs Vendor is as inane as was Spy Vs Spy – but has none of the entertainment value of even Spy Vs Spy

Having no entertainment value, what do the attacks on fellow vendors provide?

…Maybe some educational value? Nope.

On balance, this torrent of sabotage, attacks, and put downs interferes with “learning how to trade” far more than it helps with “learning how to trade”...

 

... also, and briefly, from your posted reactions to Predictor's content in particular, I doubt you really get the perspectives from which he's coming at the challenges of trading...

 

…still trusting you are not really as small, angry, and mean as you’re appearing to be recently…

 

Yours - shrinking together and making TL and all who participate smaller too,

 

:missy:

 

zdo

[Predictor 11]

One of the experiences I had that led to this thinking, actually came from another performance field, computer programming. I started programming at an early age, learned many programming languages, many ways of structuring programs -- first structured programming and later object orientation. Yet, technology changed over the years. The skills that I started with, programming in assembly language were replaced with programming in C/C++ whereas today I use even higher level languages.

 

I was rather good at this from an early age.. not that I didn't struggle a lot too-- after about a decade of experience I tried to figure out what exactly I had learned. It was hard to really put my finger on. As best I could tell, I had mainly gained a sense of confidence that I could solve the problems that I needed too. Not that I "knew everything" but that I could go and learn it. Of course, now it is easier with the internet to get answers to problems.

 

I also knew other programmers over the years. Some had more experience then I did but couldn't do as much. I recognized that most people learn for about 1-2 years and then they just rely on what they already know. I notice that some of these people are very good at "taking shortcuts" which is productive but doesn't really allow them to develop further.

 

One of the subscribers to my newsletter (no longer published) was always concerned if he were doing things the RIGHT way. He was thinking too much. I realized that when I over thought trading that it produced additional stress and anxiety that made it difficult for me to perform at my best.

 

I encouraged him, as I do myself, to take it 1 day at a time: focusing on the process.. focusing on developing the read... and the opportunity..

[steve46 12]

hm, Your students are sent to you? …they’re not directly paying the bill ?… so you have to treat them with a certain level of courtesy and respect or those footing the bill won’t send or refer anyone else ever ? … The way you’re posting on TL lately smells of progressively intensified frustration ‘displacement’ to me …

 

Seems you’re left with a choice here – treat your vendor peers and members who voluntarily interact with you up here with a modicum of the same respect or continue to lose more and more of the credibility you previously established.

 

Put another way …

Vendor Vs Vendor is as inane as was Spy Vs Spy – but has none of the entertainment value of even Spy Vs Spy

Having no entertainment value, what do the attacks on fellow vendors provide?

…Maybe some educational value? Nope.

On balance, this torrent of sabotage, attacks, and put downs interferes with “learning how to trade” far more than it helps with “learning how to trade”...

 

... also, and briefly, from your posted reactions to Predictor's content in particular, I doubt you really get the perspectives from which he's coming at the challenges of trading...

 

…still trusting you are not really as small, angry, and mean as you’re appearing to be recently…

 

Yours - shrinking together and making TL and all who participate smaller too,

 

:missy:

 

zdo

 

You aren't paying attention...I will go over it slowly

 

My "students" (I call them clients) don't pay the bill, they don't pay directly or indirectly....the institution that employs them pays....and that institution is willing to pay my fee, because A) after traders work with me they make more money and B.) it is cheaper than going out and looking for replacements....

 

I treat "my clients" with respect because unlike the folks here, they always pay attention, they THINK carefully about the subjects at hand....they ask thoughtful questions, and they work hard (because their jobs are on the line)....

 

By the way, I have already proven myself here...over a period of years....I have published a lot of free information that seems to have been useful to struggling traders....you....and a few others who seem to be upset...not so much.....in fact not at all....clearly you are "takers" rather than "givers"....If I am wrong point me to something that you have authored that has gotten a significant number of page views....Credibility?.....I am sure you can imagine where you can put your comments about credibility....

 

Lovely to have spoken with you once again...

[Ingot54 13]

Predictor - I am fast becoming a fan of yours, partly because of your ability to ignore the pomposity of ego-centric detractors while holding true to the topic ... and partly because the lateral thinking with which you approach the topic is causing me to follow suite.

 

Thanks for your innovation. I am certain you are developing an appreciative following.

[SIUYA 11]

I treat "my clients" with respect because unlike the folks here, they always pay attention, they THINK carefully about the subjects at hand....they ask thoughtful questions, and they work hard (because their jobs are on the line)....

.

 

Obvious question Steve and I think this is actually not off topic as we are talking about learning to trade and hence the link with teaching, and this is not meant to question your or anyones ability to trade, or teach or their knowledge.....

 

If folks here are such poor students, and you treat them with disrespect compared to your paying clients, and your clients actually pay (or some representative from them does)....why do you continue to stay and disrespect people here at TL who might not have the experience of your 'professional' clients.

Surely as a free internet discussion site for many new day traders you would understand the level of knowledge here might be less than elsewhere. (For others it is rather higher)

 

I dont think I need to further any other suggestions of what this might mean, but it does beg the question Steve of - Why are you here if this is what you really think?

[MightyMouse 12]

I know this isn't going to sit well with most -- especially the vendors here who like to attack me -- but one of the most important lessons I learned as a trader is that it is not possible to learn how to trade! This is why I don't claim to teach others how to trade. Something that can't be learned surely can't be taught!

 

One of the big breakthroughs I had in my performance was when I recognized that the effort in spent on learning how to trade was a mistake. In order to learn anything then it must be finite and it must be static. So, if we are to learn anything (completely) then it must be completely contained and never changing. If it changes or if we can't completely bound it (constrain) it then it is not possible to know it completely which is exactly what "learning to do something" implies.

 

Most professions are both unbounded and changing. There is no "learning how to program" either. It is not possible to learn how to program because if one truly learned how to program then it means (to me) that you can program anything in the world under any possible scenario. Nobody can do this! There are many specializations and new develops on a regular basis.

 

Let me give another example, it is not possible to, in general, "learn how to be a doctor". It only may appear that way. But, do you think the doctors of today would be able to practice medicine 200 years from now without additional training? Surely not...A good example can be found even today, I was reading some months ago that heart surgeons who had a decade of education and had expected to make 300k-500k per year were unable to find work because stints had replaced most of the work they would do. Many of these surgeons were going back to school to get additional education.

 

So, what does a trader who claims to have learned how to trade really mean? Really its not a objective measure but a measure ones own self confidence. A measure of how competent they feel and capable.

 

Let me back up and also say that I have produced materials on developing specific types of skills that have helped me. There are specific types of skills that one can develop, and that can take off years from the learning process.

 

The psychology that the average trader has, and promoted by average vendors, is so much different then the psychology that I believe the elite performer embraces. My psychology is one of a process. It is not a learned but a learning.

 

Instead of focusing the idea of "learning how to trade": focus on taking great opportunities. Focus on the process. Focus on listening to the market. Focus on building skills.

 

As well, there is no single way to trade. I trade in multiple paradigms, on multiple levels..

 

As I encouraged my students in my newsletter, focus on the opportunity.. focus on the process..

 

If I think about "learning how to trade", I draw a blank but I know how to find opportunity in the markets on a regular basis.

---

 

It might be a good idea for you to define what you think trading is. It will prove futile for anyone to focus or listen if he doesn't not know what he is seeking.

In my opinion if one has to learn how to trade before he comes to the markets, he won't stand a chance. Other talented traders will fleece him while he tweeks his way to extinction. You can't find the opportunity in the long run if you do not know how to trade.

 

Also, would you please dampen some of the sales tactics. It feels like you are offering a 90 day free trial to a secret weight loss or exercise program.

 

"Let me back up and also say that I have produced materials on developing specific types of skills that have helped me. There are specific types of skills that one can develop, and that can take off years from the learning process. "

 

"Let me back up and also say that I have produced materials on developing specific types of exercise skills that have helped me. There are specific types of exercise skills that one can develop, and that can take off inches from your waist line in a matter of days."

 

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

You aren't paying attention...

 

You're damn right we're aren't!

 

BlueHorseshoe

[steve46 12]

It might be a good idea for you to define what you think trading is. It will prove futile for anyone to focus or listen if he doesn't not know what he is seeking.

In my opinion if one has to learn how to trade before he comes to the markets, he won't stand a chance. Other talented traders will fleece him while he tweeks his way to extinction. You can't find the opportunity in the long run if you do not know how to trade.

 

Also, would you please dampen some of the sales tactics. It feels like you are offering a 90 day free trial to a secret weight loss or exercise program.

 

"Let me back up and also say that I have produced materials on developing specific types of skills that have helped me. There are specific types of skills that one can develop, and that can take off years from the learning process. "

 

"Let me back up and also say that I have produced materials on developing specific types of exercise skills that have helped me. There are specific types of exercise skills that one can develop, and that can take off inches from your waist line in a matter of days."

 

 

Nice to see some common sense appearing on the horizon

[steve46 12]

Obvious question Steve and I think this is actually not off topic as we are talking about learning to trade and hence the link with teaching, and this is not meant to question your or anyones ability to trade, or teach or their knowledge.....

 

If folks here are such poor students, and you treat them with disrespect compared to your paying clients, and your clients actually pay (or some representative from them does)....why do you continue to stay and disrespect people here at TL who might not have the experience of your 'professional' clients.

Surely as a free internet discussion site for many new day traders you would understand the level of knowledge here might be less than elsewhere. (For others it is rather higher)

 

I dont think I need to further any other suggestions of what this might mean, but it does beg the question Steve of - Why are you here if this is what you really think?

 

A decent question (for a change)

 

What I have found to be true (unfortunately) is that those who benefitted most from my comments were those who were members but did not post, or did not post very much....

 

I taught two (2) small classes of retail traders. It was the only time I have every taught retail traders....4 people in each class.....and only one of them posted here.....when I asked them why, they suggested to me that the level of discourse at Traderslaboratory was (and here they used a variety of discriptive terms) "unpleasant" "rude" "idiotic" "moronic" ".......I could go on, but that was the gist....

 

Thanks for the question

Edited August 7, 2012 by steve46

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

I taught two (2) small classes of retail traders....

 

Hi Steve46 (fourty-six),

 

I really admire the way you write!

 

At first I wasn't sure what you meant by 'two' and was really confused . . . but then you were kind enough to put the number in brackets afterwards, and suddenly a lightbulb went on in my stupid head!

 

TL would be a much worse place of there weren't articulate people like you around to explain things for the slower folks like myself . . .

 

BlueHorseshoe

 

ps. I (myself: the first person) hope you don't mind if I adopt this same stylistic technique in my own writing? (question mark)

[SIUYA 11]

A decent question (for a change)

 

What I have found to be true (unfortunately) is that those who benefitted most from my comments were those who were members but did not post, or did not post very much....

 

I taught two (2) small classes of retail traders. It was the only time I have every taught retail traders....4 people in each class.....and only one of them posted here.....when I asked them why, they suggested to me that the level of discourse at Traderslaboratory was (and here they used a variety of discriptive terms) "unpleasant" "rude" "idiotic" "moronic" ".......I could go on, but that was the gist....

 

Thanks for the question

 

yes but why are you here if this is what you really think? Why not just post in a thread such as the ES where you contribute positively......

because with comments such as "A decent question (for a change)" you are clearly only contributing to the level of discourse you seem against.......

 

To me it does not make sense for you to be here unless you enjoy it, enjoy reading it, enjoy participating in it. You are not getting paid, you think people here are morons and seem happy to be open about it (I mean that is just your personality which is fine).

 

(I for one enjoy it all immensely and find most people pleasant even if we dont agree)

 

I am just fascinated as why you would bother Steve - you can clearly trade and teach people - so why as such would you put yourself through the diatribe you think you find here.

[steve46 12]

A decent question (?) as usual ()

 

The original poster suggested in a clumsy multi-paragraph sales pitch...that he couldn't teach trading but incidentally he has these services that he can offer....for a price

 

I suggested in response that trading can indeed be taught....further... here is what works....markets are either consolidating or trending, so you trade responsively short at the top, long at the bottom of each range....and if you are lucky one of those times, price will break out with you on board...and the advantage is you don't have to pay anyone to teach you.....YOU CAN TEACH YOURSELF.....are you getting this yet...?

Edited August 7, 2012 by MadMarketScientist
no personal attacks please - thanks

[SIUYA 11]

Steve46 - I think most of us got the "clumsy sales pitch", your style of trading, (thanks by the way), and the lessons in being adults, we get your humour and that you have a grumpy personality ......

 

the part I dont get and maybe its just me -

As a teacher and a trader with the skills you have - why participate in something and with others that you clearly hold such contempt with, when you say you dont with your other students?

 

We could speculate but that might be a whole other thread in itself, and before we head down the slippery slope that is that........

I mean if you just don't like folks here, or they are a little slow, or maybe they just don't understand your sensitive side then fine, ......but why punish yourself?

 

It seems like a trader who repeats his mistakes when he is learning to trade.

[steve46 12]

Steve46 - I think most of us got the "clumsy sales pitch", your style of trading, (thanks by the way), and the lessons in being adults, we get your humour and that you have a grumpy personality ......

 

the part I dont get and maybe its just me -

As a teacher and a trader with the skills you have - why participate in something and with others that you clearly hold such contempt with, when you say you dont with your other students?

 

We could speculate but that might be a whole other thread in itself, and before we head down the slippery slope that is that........

I mean if you just don't like folks here, or they are a little slow, or maybe they just don't understand your sensitive side then fine, ......but why punish yourself?

 

It seems like a trader who repeats his mistakes when he is learning to trade.

 

 

Here is a quote from my previous post (#19)

 

for those whose short term memory may be compromised.....

 

"What I have found to be true (unfortunately) is that those who benefitted most from my comments were those who were members but did not post, or did not post very much...."

 

Okay so I think I have suffered patiently through all your many attempts to be witty.....and frankly now I am bored......

Edited August 7, 2012 by MadMarketScientist
no personal attacks please - thanks

[SIUYA 11]

"What I have found to be true (unfortunately) is that those who benefitted most from my comments were those who were members but did not post, or did not post very much...."

 

so Q: why put yourself through the moronic diatribe here, why punish yourself here when you have so much contempt for us.....

A: the silent few.

 

Fair enough.

it all makes sense now -thanks Steve - and sorry for me being a little short on memory....

 

Despite your contempt for the rest of us it is done for the silent few.....

 

not sure why but it kinda reminds me of Dr.Charles Montague

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u1jtxkgEdQ]Division of correction - YouTube[/ame]

[zdo 20]

... If I am wrong point me to something that you have authored that has gotten a significant number of page views....Credibility?...

 

A large number of views or thanks or likes on one of my posts always tells me I’ve gotten away from my intention on TL. My posts are not targeted to the large, general audience – but to the one particular trader out there who might need it in the moment. Most days I only find a few minutes to skim a few posts and maybe compose something that questions the paradigms of the “profession” (your term) from way out on the tails where seeking ‘credibility’ would be ludicrous..

 

I have already proven myself here...over a period of years....I have published a lot of free information that seems to have been useful to struggling traders....

That’s just it Steve46, the content about trading you have authored IS high quality and credible. I’m only finding “wrong” with your content about your peers and the way you are treating other people… It’s basically just a matter of at least trying when it comes to being able to disagree (or even warn or rescue them from some stoopid vendor like Predictor, etc) without being disagreeable. I’m taking the time and energy to respond because I’m still trusting you are not really as small, angry, and mean as you’re appearing to be recently…

 

and re:

clients…unlike you they are serious about this profession

I can’t speak for all traders, but the traders I admire ( myself included ) do not want to be in the "profession".

'Professional' has at its roots jumping through a bunch of governmental and cultural hoops so that one can have an exclusive specialized license (to exploit)… personally if I were to go professional, it would not be as a professional trader … been there, done that - IB, CTA, CPO, managing private funds (... and even did a short stint interspersed in there as a training “vendor” (as we call them in here ).

Much like the complications that arise when lead substitutes in cellular receptor sites for zinc, etc, I find that ‘professionalism’ naturally needs to be flushed and chelated out - so that plain old fashioned Perseverance, etc. can do its job

… and that’s some Learn How To Trade from yet another perspective from the one Predictor is talking about.

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

Here is a quote from my previous post (#19)

 

Hi Steve46 (fourty-six),

 

I love how you have started to reference yourself in your own post - can I ask where the inspiration for this came from?

 

It's like some kind of postmodern feedback loop of recurrent, self-congratulatory pomp - AWESOME!

 

BlueHorseshoe

 

ps. I hope you don't mind if I start doing this too?

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

My sentiments totally echo those of BlueHorseshoe's previous post:

 

Hi Steve46 (fourty-six),

 

I love how you have started to reference yourself in your own post - can I ask where the inspiration for this came from?

 

It's like some kind of postmodern feedback loop of recurrent, self-congratulatory pomp - AWESOME!

 

BlueHorseshoe

 

ps. I hope you don't mind if I start doing this too?

 

BlueHorseshoe

[komodo 10]

This is one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read. And that is saying a lot.

 

Trading is hard, and it isn't right for everyone. However, the fact that we cannot know something completely or perfectly doesn't mean that we can't learn to do it or learn some part of it in which we can be effective. Any complex art, science or similar human endeavor is going to be larger than the capacity of any one person to know it all. That does not mean that a person, through diligent application of effort and maybe some natural skill, cannot become a master at it, even though it might take years or a lifetime.

 

I believe that, if someone wants to learn to trade, he needs to get to know himself -- his skills, available time, strengths and weaknesses -- the market he wishes to trade, the broker he is using, the software he is using, and then practice one or two basic setups hundreds of times, until he can execute them perfectly each time and can show a consistent positive expectancy. He doesn't have to know every indicator, every market, every theory and nuance; to claim that he "can't learn" something simply because it is complex or changing is complete nonsense.

 

Consider jiujitsu. There are thousands of techniques, and it is constantly evolving. The best players, though, aren't necessarily those who know thousands of moves, but who have mastered the basic principles and can execute a few effective moves with proper timing, confidence and efficiency. Getting there takes years of practice, hundreds or thousands of repetitions, and a lot of mistakes were made along the way. It isn't easy, and only one in a thousand can do it.

[madmedmat 10]

i really don't get why you guys are flaming each other.

this discussion altogether seems unproductive.

 

there are fundamental aspects of trading that can definitely be taught, no question about that (conscious, analytic mind function).

also, there are components that heavily depend on your personality and experience (subconscious, abstract mind function).

 

the people that want to be traders and mostly fail are over-analytic "left-brained" mindset weighted. they learn what can be taught and still suck, because its not enough.

 

so if someone says trading can not be taught, i say he is right, because the probably more tough components can not be taught. they have to be experienced.

if another guy says trading CAN be taught, i say he is right too, because some analytic components and approaches how you can work on your mindset can definitely be taught.

[1chameleon 10]

In order to come up with a more beneficial answer or solution it's sometimes helpful to ask a better question. Semantics aside I think rather than ask "can one learn to trade" a more appropriate question would be...

 

"Can one learn to trade profitably"?

 

I believe trading is a learned skill and one certainly can learn to trade profitably. Then a trader can continue to educate themselves (either self teaching or being mentored), be adaptable, improve their psychological skills such as mastering discipline and "hopefully" become more profitable over time.