Whats the Largest Return Any Trader Ever Made/ How Much Do Top Solo Traders Make?

[futurebondtrader 10]

Hello,

 

While there has been endless publicity about hundred million dollar and billion dollar hedge fund managers, to anyone's knowledge:

 

1. In terms of account growth, what has the biggest percent growth ever been for a solo trader?

 

2. To anyone's knowledge, how much do top solo futures traders make?

 

Thanks

[onesmith 10]

10.17.02 ... a new trader just starting out was given his 1st account to manage.

10.17.02 .... $75,000 ... opening balance

10.17.03 ... $862,980 ... 1 yr later.

 

04.15.03 ... he was given another account to manage.

04.15.03 ... $25,000 ... opening balance

11.14.03 ... $247,000 ... date he released this info.

 

This info was in the public domain for a short time before it was deleted because of the personal attacks he received over posting it. I trust it is true. I insist anyone who recognizes this trader honor him by refusing to identify him. I'm posting these results because they inspire me. Everyone looking for inspiration deserves to see inspiring results like this. These results are from automated strats he wrote based upon just about zero knowledge of trading combined with what he learned in 3 yrs of studing programming at a public college.

[karoshiman 10]

Hello,

 

While there has been endless publicity about hundred million dollar and billion dollar hedge fund managers, to anyone's knowledge:

 

1. In terms of account growth, what has the biggest percent growth ever been for a solo trader?

 

2. To anyone's knowledge, how much do top solo futures traders make?

 

Thanks

 

 

To my knowledge the biggest percentage return published so far is Larry Williams' > 11,000% return in a one year period, turning $10k into $1.1m in that futures competition.

 

Although this is all very interesting, it's of no value to any other individual trader, nor what any hedge fund make per year.

 

The only thing that is relevant is how much YOU and YOUR METHOD are able to make per year.

 

It's like asking what the performance metrics of Tiger Woods are in Golf... how will this help you if you start golfing? Even if you have much more talent than Tiger Woods and are prepared to train smarter and harder than he did in all aspects of the game (incl. mental), then such comparison would only limit you to be as good as he was and not better...

[Predictor 11]

Most of the professionals day traders I've spoke too make consider anywhere from 30% to 50%+ a solid return. None of the most credible people I spoke too mentioned making over around 50% to 80%. You can look at World Cup to see what those traders are doing in their accounts.

 

I consider 30% a good base level return because most people don't want to experience more then 30% DD and a 30% return at a 1:1 reward/risk. Speaking of returns without risk doesn't tell you anything.

 

I consider also consistently making 30% on risk per day a top of the line return. This gives about a 4x return to the account size -- if risk is kept below 5% which is aggressive. Many consider the 4:1 reward/risk ratio an excellent goal. Few will manage better then 2x. Long term among tracked CTA funds, few manage a sharpe above 1. A 1 sharpe will translate closely to a 1 calmar or 1:1 -- in other words there aren't many funds that can do better then the 1:1 ratio.

 

Of course, some traders may have an excellent run and do a lot more. I don't think it is useful to compare yourself to those though. Traders at firms may do better but I know some of those managers and they aren't making as much as you'd think.

 

One futures firm said a good trader will do 250k before splits... so after splits you're making a good salary but not getting rich. A top stock prop firm told me that a new trader will do good to make 50k in the first year.

 

As for Larry.. he made his returns by scaling up his size. It is possible to do some amazing returns if one scales up size as the account grows. Most people don't want to experience those type of swings though...

 

 

2. To anyone's knowledge, how much do top solo futures traders make?

Thanks

Edited July 3, 2012 by Predictor

[Plugger 10]

I had an 18 mth run trading 1 Jan 2006 to 30 June 2007.

333 days traded with total profit Aud $1,497,527. Ave $4497 per day.

After brokerage costs of around $250,000 per year with Comsec Aot desk in Aus.

Was one of their largest private traders at that time.

That was my best return over a set period.

Before that I had some average years and some good years.

Probably doesn't compare with some of the guys from the US though.

But I was trading from a few home computers with a trainee and occasionally my wife.

The edge I had at that time is a lot smaller nowadays with the HFT guys.

I trade now online with a few pro traders from Aus in the Fx and futures markets.

Just thought this can show that it is possible if you can develop an edge over a large sample size.

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

It would seem that my attitude to all this would be the opposite of most.

 

1. Trading my own money I want the low volatility of returns that most fund managers target in order to attract investors. Whereas most independent traders tend to quote 'being able to take on greater risks to achieve larger returns' as a benefit of not trading other people's money.

 

2. If I was trading other people's money and, hypothetically, could do so on a completely unregulated basis with no question of repercussions, then I would swing for the fences with money management in the way that Larry Williams did in the competition. It's other people's money - what would I care about the volatility of returns or risk profile? There's no real downside, for me, and unlimited upside.

 

What do others make of this? Is this a logical conclusion, or should I be working with the other sociopaths at Goldman?

 

BlueHorseshoe

[Plugger 10]

I agree with you Bluehorseshoe on your comment.

During the 18mth period my volatility and draw downs apart from the odd brain fade were very low.

I built my account up day by day with low risk and trained our 20yr old babysitter/childcare to trade my account alongside me.

I think it is the consistency of the trading approach with an edge over a large sample size that is important.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Plugger

[bakrob99 11]

... I think it is the consistency of the trading approach with an edge over a large sample size that is important.

 

You're absolutely right. You can't make BIG money without trading size. To be able to trade size you need consistency. Having an edge, and making small consistent gains - then adding a contract after the margin (or 2 x the margin) has been made, is the key to adding size and exploiting the edge.

 

The discussion of return as a percentage of account means nothing when trading futures IMO.

[Ingot54 13]

I had an 18 mth run trading 1 Jan 2006 to 30 June 2007.

333 days traded with total profit Aud $1,497,527. Ave $4497 per day.

After brokerage costs of around $250,000 per year with Comsec Aot desk in Aus.

Was one of their largest private traders at that time.

That was my best return over a set period.

Before that I had some average years and some good years.

Probably doesn't compare with some of the guys from the US though.

But I was trading from a few home computers with a trainee and occasionally my wife.

The edge I had at that time is a lot smaller nowadays with the HFT guys.

I trade now online with a few pro traders from Aus in the Fx and futures markets.

Just thought this can show that it is possible if you can develop an edge over a large sample size.

Plugger - I used to live on the Sunshine Coast, and attended Davin Clarke's free trading info evenings at Kawana Community Centre.

 

Your numbers sound very, very similar to Davin's. The numbers I heard from a "reliable source" were that Davin paid Commsec $330,000 commish between 1st July and end September ... probably around 2006 or 2007. Davin is now in the USA I believe, where he is involved in the teaching/coaching side of the markets these days.

 

Like you, Davin made many rapid trades in a relatively short period. I am thinking that if you are not Davin Clarke, then you must know him or know of him.

 

The effort was extraordinary for the times, as was yours.

 

Well done.

[Plugger 10]

That's me.

Back on the Sunny Coast now after some prop trading in Atlanta US with Alexander Tzarvaras.

Those meetings that I ran were fun but time constraints became a factor.

Hope your trading has been going well Ingot.

Saw the post about trader returns and thought I should write that good returns are possible but require the hard yards and a bit of independent thinking that most can't commit to.

A hard way to make an easy dollar.

Think the commissions to Comsec got up to the half mill + over a 2yr period.

The chrissy presents were a bit stingy only a dozen beers on one of those years.

Lucky I'm a beer fan.

[Ingot54 13]

That's me.

Back on the Sunny Coast now after some prop trading in Atlanta US with Alexander Tzarvaras.

Those meetings that I ran were fun but time constraints became a factor.

Hope your trading has been going well Ingot.

Saw the post about trader returns and thought I should write that good returns are possible but require the hard yards and a bit of independent thinking that most can't commit to.

A hard way to make an easy dollar.

Think the commissions to Comsec got up to the half mill + over a 2yr period.

The chrissy presents were a bit stingy only a dozen beers on one of those years.

Lucky I'm a beer fan.

 

You forgot to mention ... they don't have our surf!

 

There are still a few traders on the Sunny Coast, though I have not rubbed shoulders with too many. I corresponded with Youri from Wurtulla today - didn't know he was there (Russian bloke) - he may have been around in your earlier times?

 

Awhile ago I stopped looking for a strategy and decided to master what I am already doing. That sort of focus pays in spades ... only wish I had done it 6 years earlier!

 

Will look you up when I am next on the coast - I still have family there and am possibly moving back before Chrissy.

 

Keepacoldieinnafridge!

 

Nice to touch base again. I have followed a bit of your work through different people with good blogs who linked to you (Lance Beggs is one). Also wondering about Chris Shea - is he still in the coaching business? His book deserved far more exposure and popularity than it received - an excellent beginners starting point to get the head around the market's tricks.

 

Cheers mate ... sorry to take the thread off-topic.

[ForexTraderX 10]

Hello,

 

While there has been endless publicity about hundred million dollar and billion dollar hedge fund managers, to anyone's knowledge:

 

1. In terms of account growth, what has the biggest percent growth ever been for a solo trader?

 

2. To anyone's knowledge, how much do top solo futures traders make?

 

Thanks

 

Marty Schwartz (interviewed in the best selling book, market wizards) averaged 25% ROI per MONTH, for several years in a row, while never suffering more than a 3% drawdown from month end to month end, on a multimillion dollar account. This was published in his interview in this book, he also wrote a book called pit bull about his experience trading, and his account was audited because he did become a CTA, so it's not just a claim, or a rumor, but it's been validated. He also entered several trading competitions that used real money (he used his own personal account), and he won I believe 4 out of 5 years with unbelieveable returns.

 

That's an ROI of approx. 1,400%+ per year, for years in a row, without more than a few percent draw down.

 

This is the best i've ever heard of with real money, that can and has been independently verified.

[n00btrader 10]

How about top retail discretionary futures traders, if you are, and of those traders you know, what kind of average % returns do you consistently make?

[bakrob99 11]

How about top retail discretionary futures traders, if you are, and of those traders you know, what kind of average % returns do you consistently make?

 

Do you mean per day, week, month, year. Trading futures is all about making income for me, not return. I'd have to calculate return on what?? Margin, Risk$? Leveraged amount?

 

Let's say the ES is at 1400 and its point value is $50. Therefore each contract is worth $70,000. So trading one contract if you made $35000 in a year - a good and possible target in my opinion - it would amount to 50% of the leverage amount. But on the basis of margin at $5000 per contract it would be 700%.

 

What is the point of asking these questions. Will it give you something to shoot for in your mind? I suspect that you may be wondering how much is possible to see whether it is an activity which is something you wish to pursue. In my experience - pursuing this activity for strictly financial reasons is not an effective way to go about it and is going to lead to poor results.

[n00btrader 10]

Do you mean per day, week, month, year. Trading futures is all about making income for me, not return. I'd have to calculate return on what?? Margin, Risk$? Leveraged amount?

 

Let's say the ES is at 1400 and its point value is $50. Therefore each contract is worth $70,000. So trading one contract if you made $35000 in a year - a good and possible target in my opinion - it would amount to 50% of the leverage amount. But on the basis of margin at $5000 per contract it would be 700%.

 

What is the point of asking these questions. Will it give you something to shoot for in your mind? I suspect that you may be wondering how much is possible to see whether it is an activity which is something you wish to pursue. In my experience - pursuing this activity for strictly financial reasons is not an effective way to go about it and is going to lead to poor results.

 

Day, week, month, year, doesn't matter, if you have one, you can calculate the rest.

 

Comparison against margin, leverage, contract value, etc is not too useful in futures. I mean income, return against account value.

 

I already know I wish to pursue, as I have been for years and am comfortable with my reasons. The point, is simply to know. If we are discussing what the top institutional traders have achieved, why not discuss what the top retail traders achieve?

[Ingot54 13]

Day, week, month, year, doesn't matter, if you have one, you can calculate the rest ...

... The point, is simply to know. If we are discussing what the top institutional traders have achieved, why not discuss what the top retail traders achieve?

The question was valid, and of interest generally, n00btrader - thanks for asking it.

 

But the best answer you might get was in post #5 of the thread, by Plugger - a trader I have met once or twice, and for whom I would vouch. I also know people with whom he was associated in training at a very high level.

 

They held an annual retreat at the old Hyatt Regency, Coolum beach on the Sunshine Coast (now the Palmer Resort I think it might be called now.) Back then - 2006 onwards - if you were making $750k minimum pa you qualified for the Super-Trader retreat at the resort.

 

I think Plugger could clarify how many traders attended - - I fell a bit short of the qualifying mark myself ... :(

 

Have included a couple of pics of the resort, for dreamers ... plus a link to Google Satellite of the area if interested in motivating yourself for a half-decent vacation!

 

http://tinyurl.com/cbllkgk

[ForexTraderX 10]

It would seem that my attitude to all this would be the opposite of most.

 

1. Trading my own money I want the low volatility of returns that most fund managers target in order to attract investors. Whereas most independent traders tend to quote 'being able to take on greater risks to achieve larger returns' as a benefit of not trading other people's money.

 

2. If I was trading other people's money and, hypothetically, could do so on a completely unregulated basis with no question of repercussions, then I would swing for the fences with money management in the way that Larry Williams did in the competition. It's other people's money - what would I care about the volatility of returns or risk profile? There's no real downside, for me, and unlimited upside.

 

What do others make of this? Is this a logical conclusion, or should I be working with the other sociopaths at Goldman?

 

BlueHorseshoe

 

Actually... if your trading other peoples money, you don't want to do that. Here's why:

If you start your year off managing $1 million, and make even a 30% ROI your first year, with a drawdown that never exceeds 10%... you will charge your 1%, plus 20% of profits. You will make about $70,000

 

And, you will also get probably $10 - $100 milllion to manage in your second year. For this year, you will make 30% ROI, drawdown never over 10%, and you chart 1% plus 20% of profits. You will make between $700,000 - $7 million. by the end of that second year.

 

If you do this, you will be get about $200 million - $350 million to manage in your third year. For this year, you will make 30% ROI, drawdown never over 10%, and you charge 1% plus 20% of profits. You will make between $14 million and $24.5 million that year. In your third year. Starting with $1 million. 3 years later, you can very realistically be on track to make $14 - $24 million

 

Remember, with that type of return and low drawdown, you will have more money than you can imagine being thrown at you. Trust me. I know. The world can be a very, very, very rich place with money to give to you if you show a couple of guys some good numbers for a year or so. Because those guys have friends. And their friends have stupid money. And so do their friends, and so on... and every single one of them wants to make 30% per year with no more than a 10% draw down. Every Single One. Period.

 

If you trade your own money, you would need to acheive an ROI of about 230% - 290% per year, if you start with $1,000,000, and want to make $14 - $24 in your 3rd year.... mind you, if your drawdowns average 10% of your annual return.... well, lets just say you'll come close each year to wiping out your account while you kill yourself to make that type of ROI.

 

If you trade other peoples money, you can literally make $14 - $24 million per year by the end of your 3rd year, by acheiving only a 30% ROI, and an extremely pleasing drawdown of only 10% at any given time.

 

You don't swing for the fences because you don't get money from one person one time. You go for singles and base hits because you get money from many rich people, all the time, and that list is always growing, never dropping, if you can get that type of risk adjusted return.

 

If you can do that, it's better than almost any rich person can do with big money anywhere else. So that's why your phone will ring every single day with someone who wants to give you millions.

 

No joke. Sounds nuts. It's true. And it's why you prefer base hits to home runs if you trade OPM

 

FTX.

[mwtzzz 10]

The only metric that matters is the P/L statement over the entire lifetime of a trader. Impressive gains over a two or five year period matter nothing if subsequent losses erase those gains. Consistency is the most important factor.

[nelsonhimes 10]

Its not yet fix or decided because the ratio of the return is always increasing or decreasing everyday.

[TheDude 10]

Hello,

 

While there has been endless publicity about hundred million dollar and billion dollar hedge fund managers, to anyone's knowledge:

 

1. In terms of account growth, what has the biggest percent growth ever been for a solo trader?

 

2. To anyone's knowledge, how much do top solo futures traders make?

 

Thanks

 

I dont have stats but I have a friend who have been trading 15 years 'solo' ie his own account and now worth 100 mil+ trading futures.

 

this is the secret though - you dont have 'retail' accounts.

 

when you get to a level, you need leverage. you know you dont want to keep a load of margin in your account to cover exchange margins. What you do is consider your account balance as your 'ultimate stop'. You have reserve cash in a bank account else where - that used to pay interest lol. You go to a professional broker (crosslands, advantage, etc) and they will give you extra leverage and give you limits based on position size. retail traders will have a position limit determined by acct balance.

 

eg retail trader with 50k trading at $500 intraday margin can trade 100 lots max

with an agreement pro/retail may have 50k in their account but has agreed a 300 lot limit.

 

Obviously to do this, the fcm/broker must know you well (confidence you know what youre doing), you need a good track record etc. Its in their interest of course, because the more you trade, the more they make.

 

They (fcm) will ALWAYS look at their risk first of course. If you dont respect the extra leverage and start to lose say 50% of your account, they may well withdraw the limit or block you until you have more funds wired in.

 

The broker provides extra leverage.Its part of their business model.

 

This is similar to how it works in prop firms.