Fear Yourself Young Apprentice and the Chaos Within

[TheNegotiator 13]

Fear, fear, fear is what I hear when traders are talking about their psychological problems with trading. Sure, fear is a problem when you have a crappy trade on and whilst it needs to be dealt with appropriately, but it is NOT the underlying problem.

 

Fear is created in situations of unknown risk. It is our evolutionary mechanism for telling us that there could be big trouble ahead. The way we act subsequent to feeling fear is of course something which needs to be scrutinised as it's clearly all to often in a way which is detrimental to our accounts.

 

But as a trader I know this. Although there are indeed uncertain situations which markets do throw up from time to time, the vast majority of fear and uncertainty is created by lack of preparation, biased views, inconsistent monitoring of markets and indecision. In other words, YOU BECOME FEARFUL IN A TRADE BECAUSE YOU KNOW YOU'VE MESSED UP AND HAVEN'T A CLUE WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON. Or you just can't help but take impulsive trades where you know you shouldn't. If you don't have rigid enough risk mechanisms in place to exit the trade and the fear builds even more as the market prints against you. This explanation also covers those who are fearful of pulling the trigger to enter a trade. If haven't assessed the market, indentified trades and assigned proper risk parameters to them, there's every reason to be fearful as if you do take a trade, you know you'll be floating in a sea of chaos very quickly.

 

I hope I'm being clear here. Whilst it's important to manage fear when it appears, it's imperative that you manage day-to-day trading objectives properly and thus evade potentially fearful situations in the first place.

[zdo 20]

Negoc8r

 

I Like this. However, if I may take this a little bit deeper and broader

“lack of preparation”

“biased views”

“inconsistent monitoring of markets”

“indecision”.

“ just can't help but take impulsive trades where you know you shouldn't”

“ don't have rigid enough risk mechanisms in place to exit the trade” etc

all are also ‘fear’ based…

I’m broadening the usage of the word ‘fear’ here because this ‘fear’ is not necessarily accompanied real time by the direct conscious experience of physical sensations and peptides of fear. Those issues you listed are still all ‘caused’ by a chronic background steady state of, to put it bluntly, avoidance… most accurate term for it I’ve seen is chronic ‘fear reactivity’. Neurologically, one way of describing it is the amygdale are habitually oriented towards threat instead of opportunity at an effectively constant ‘baseline’ level which prevents consistent “preparation”, awareness of “biased views”, consistent “monitoring”, and leads to decision fatigue, susceptibility to “impulsive trades”, and incomplete acceptance of risk, etc… fear reactivity limits capacity as effectively as do physical brain lesions… can be imagined as brain lesions self induced by years of 'psychic surgery'.

To will all those things – to “cognitively” will to prepare, to be consistent, to be decisive, to never be impulsive again, etc. are honorable and admirable but they will not get most traders the consistency they really need to get… In near constant fear reactivity it is literally impossible to "manage day-to-day trading objectives properly and thus evade potentially fearful situations in the first place. "

 

... guess I ended up disagreeing with you more than I originally thought I was going to ...

[DbPhoenix 42]

  zdo said:

Negoc8r

 

I Like this. However, if I may take this a little bit deeper and broader . . .

 

It's as if I never left

 

Db

[TheNegotiator 13]

  zdo said:

Negoc8r

 

I Like this. However, if I may take this a little bit deeper and broader

“lack of preparation”

“biased views”

“inconsistent monitoring of markets”

“indecision”.

“ just can't help but take impulsive trades where you know you shouldn't”

“ don't have rigid enough risk mechanisms in place to exit the trade” etc

all are also ‘fear’ based…

I’m broadening the usage of the word ‘fear’ here because this ‘fear’ is not necessarily accompanied real time by the direct conscious experience of physical sensations and peptides of fear. Those issues you listed are still all ‘caused’ by a chronic background steady state of, to put it bluntly, avoidance… most accurate term for it I’ve seen is chronic ‘fear reactivity’. Neurologically, one way of describing it is the amygdale are habitually oriented towards threat instead of opportunity at an effectively constant ‘baseline’ level which prevents consistent “preparation”, awareness of “biased views”, consistent “monitoring”, and leads to decision fatigue, susceptibility to “impulsive trades”, and incomplete acceptance of risk, etc… fear reactivity limits capacity as effectively as do physical brain lesions… can be imagined as brain lesions self induced by years of 'psychic surgery'.

To will all those things – to “cognitively” will to prepare, to be consistent, to be decisive, to never be impulsive again, etc. are honorable and admirable but they will not get most traders the consistency they really need to get… In near constant fear reactivity it is literally impossible to "manage day-to-day trading objectives properly and thus evade potentially fearful situations in the first place. "

 

... guess I ended up disagreeing with you more than I originally thought I was going to ...

 

It's funny you say that though because isn't it scientifically understood that deliberate practise forms new neurological pathways in the brain? If this is the case, the "will to win" and sheer determination can get you there. Isn't this often what separates the great from the good (or not so good)?

[zdo 20]

  DbPhoenix said:

It's as if I never left

 

Db

 

It is as if you never left

Typical “thinking type” reaction

 

Be careful you don’t assume that everyone is operating at the same level you are on some scale like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Many are chronically ‘patching leaks’ at several need levels lower than you or even what you brought to trading in the first place.

 

When we sum up what you (and the crowd that will be agreeing with you) conclude, we’ll find that you have confused what I’m saying as an indication that you should abandon something very central to yourself – your ‘detached control’ style. But if you are this 'type' / have this as a primary way of doing and if you do happen to know you need to change (obviously, Db, you know you don’t need to change) you should know you can ultimately retain ‘control’ as your primary mode of processing… but, to break fear reactivity you must risk going through a sort of dissolution and contact with emotions most control types will never dare – so they remain stuck!

[zdo 20]

  TheNegotiator said:

It's funny you say that though because isn't it scientifically understood that deliberate practise forms new neurological pathways in the brain? If this is the case, the "will to win" and sheer determination can get you there. Isn't this often what separates the great from the good (or not so good)?

 

It’s funny and, simultaneously, serious how you guys think I’m disagreeing with you…

 

Yes, it is “ scientifically understood that deliberate practice … ”

What I’m saying is the returns of deliberative practice, etc in ‘fear reactivity’ are miniscule compared to the returns of deliberative practice, etc in ‘flow’

 

In the way I’m conferring, ‘will’ is a key factor in creating the separation of the “good” from the “not so good”. The “great” - while they have and / or build the capacity to keep a solid, even superior, stored reserve of ‘will’ for when needed - rarely rely on ‘will’ at all...

[DbPhoenix 42]

  zdo said:

It is as if you never left

Typical “thinking type” reaction

 

Be careful you don’t assume that everyone is operating at the same level you are on some scale like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Many are chronically ‘patching leaks’ at several need levels lower than you or even what you brought to trading in the first place.

 

When we sum up what you (and the crowd that will be agreeing with you) conclude, we’ll find that you have confused what I’m saying as an indication that you should abandon something very central to yourself – your ‘detached control’ style. But if you are this 'type' / have this as a primary way of doing and if you do happen to know you need to change (obviously, Db, you know you don’t need to change) you should know you can ultimately retain ‘control’ as your primary mode of processing… but, to break fear reactivity you must risk going through a sort of dissolution and contact with emotions most control types will never dare – so they remain stuck!

 

It's not so much a matter of controlling fear as getting rid of it. Trading should not be a battle to control emotions. Trading should be relaxed. If one isn't relaxed, he ought not to be trading. At least not yet.

 

But didn't we do all of this several years ago?

 

In any case, Negotiator is doing just fine. I'll be an interested observer.

 

Db

[SIUYA 11]

  zdo said:

Negoc8r

 

I Those issues you listed are still all ‘caused’ by a chronic background steady state of, to put it bluntly, avoidance… most accurate term for it I’ve seen is chronic ‘fear reactivity’.

To will all those things – to “cognitively” will to prepare, to be consistent, to be decisive, to never be impulsive again, etc. are honorable and admirable but they will not get most traders the consistency they really need to get…

 

... guess I ended up disagreeing with you more than I originally thought I was going to ...

 

If I am reading you correctly zdo..... what you are saying is that

 

if you cant even be bothered to do the preparation, and it does not come naturally, then even if you force yourself to do it (so it becomes ingrained) - then you are still pushing sh.t up hill from the beginning?

[zdo 20]

It’s amusing and, simultaneously, serious how you guys think I’m disagreeing with you…

please note that I’m not discounting what you are saying and that you are discounting what I’m saying…

 

"But didn't we do all of this several years ago?"

No

 

"It's not so much a matter of controlling fear as getting rid of it. Trading should not be a battle to control emotions. Trading should be relaxed. If one isn't relaxed, he ought not to be trading. At least not yet."

Again, it’s amusing and, simultaneously, serious how you conclude I’m disagreeing with you…

The thread state is currently at “relaxation through willpower”. While that may be sufficient in your world, it is far from sufficient for many... so if things were just dropped at this point we're just stroking ourselves and helping no one…

 

 

 

 

 

Negoc8r, what did you mean by the title of this thread?

[DbPhoenix 42]

  zdo said:

It’s amusing and, simultaneously, serious how you guys think I’m disagreeing with you…

please note that I’m not discounting what you are saying and that you are discounting what I’m saying…

 

"But didn't we do all of this several years ago?"

No

 

"It's not so much a matter of controlling fear as getting rid of it. Trading should not be a battle to control emotions. Trading should be relaxed. If one isn't relaxed, he ought not to be trading. At least not yet."

Again, it’s amusing and, simultaneously, serious how you conclude I’m disagreeing with you…

The thread state is currently at “relaxation through willpower”. While that may be sufficient in your world, it is far from sufficient for many... so if things were just dropped at this point we're just stroking ourselves and helping no one…

 

You're making a lot of assumptions about our assumptions. In any case, you brought "control" into it.

 

But I'm glad you're amused:).

 

Db

[zdo 20]

  DbPhoenix said:

...In any case, you brought "control" into it...

 

and with good reason...

[SIUYA 11]

  zdo said:

please note that I’m not discounting what you are saying and that you are discounting what I’m saying…

 

 

actually I am just trying to paraphrase you for myself (and maybe others) - a bit like putting it in my own words so that I get where you are coming from..... as I do find your writings somewhat cryptic (or just plain confusing) sometimes.

I dont know if there is any disagreement or discounting.....

[zdo 20]

  SIUYA said:

If I am reading you correctly zdo..... what you are saying is that

 

if you cant even be bothered to do the preparation, and it does not come naturally, then even if you force yourself to do it (so it becomes ingrained) - then you are still pushing sh.t up hill from the beginning?

 

No, “pushing sh.t up hill from the beginning” is chronically coming from the background of fear-reactivity. The examples used - “lack of preparation”,“biased views” , “inconsistent monitoring of markets”, “indecision”, “ just can't help but take impulsive trades where you know you shouldn't”, “ don't have rigid enough risk mechanisms in place to exit the trade” etc are but symptoms of fear-reactivity (regardless of whether one is 'triggered' enough to experience the sensations of the fear emotion or not).

 

The strong “just say no” tactic that TN is talking about is spot on for a certain group… (note again I'm not making wrong the 'keeping the lid on it' way of dealing with 'emotions...) but it is a wholly inadequate for many others in here… and for us to just say “that’s good - so it must be good for everyone” is a serious disservice to the TL as a whole… (and quite classically, many of those for whom it’s “good” advice will not even acknowledge the situation others are in - talkin’bout “assuming” - now that’s assuming!! )

 

For many, doing the opposite of the items on that list (and other trading issues) can not be plainly done by just doing the opposite. (the 2nd worst sentence of the week ) Nor can those things TN listed and the fear reactivity behind them be readily trained or conditioned away by typical practice trading, desensitization, relaxation, etc etc.

 

… there’s no getting around “do the preparation”, etc . What I’m talking about is the state from which we do . To distill it down to, for example, ‘relaxed’ (or whatever) is adequate for some… but definitely not for others… and I’m going to “assume” TN cares about those for whom it is not adequate too…

[Obsidian 10]

  TheNegotiator said:

...YOU BECOME FEARFUL IN A TRADE BECAUSE YOU KNOW YOU'VE MESSED UP AND HAVEN'T A CLUE WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON....

is it fear or hope which causes problems?

 

when the trade goes against you,

-do you fear it is not coming back?

or

-do you hope it will come back?

[zdo 20]

  Obsidian said:

is it fear or hope which causes problems?

 

when the trade goes against you,

-do you fear it is not coming back?

or

-do you hope it will come back?

 

how 'bout Both fear and hope?

(not to mention several other possible 'co-emotions'...)

[zdo 20]

These might initially seem to be very same but

We have a choice.

We can continue to work with mitigating, modulating, preventing, etc episodic mental and emotional reactions/responses – dealing with “both” ( as Obsidian made so cryptically clear – )

 

or

 

We can work with whatever “chronic” background we may be coming from

 

I hope the following is less cryptic than I typically am … you are either doing one or you are doing the other. You can’t do both at the same time!

and it is also ultimately senseless to do one of them in the service of the other

whups – that non cryptic moment was sure short lived …

[gosu 10]

  Obsidian said:

is it fear or hope which causes problems?

 

when the trade goes against you,

-do you fear it is not coming back?

or

-do you hope it will come back?

 

There is no place for hope in trading. None. Zilch. Finis.

 

Fear on the other hand is useful, and I put it in the group of emotions fear/anxiety/anger. All it means is you have not figured out how to handle yourself in the particular market situation that causes the emotional reaction of fear/anxiety/anger.

 

In the big picture, there is nothing to fear in the markets. There is money changing hands back and forth. That's it.

 

Anyone who has survived losing all the money and material possessions they have in the world either through war, natural disaster, social upheaval, etc., knows the truth. The people who are ready to jump out the window because their account blew up and they can't make the payment on the mortgage or have to pull junior out of private school have yet to learn it.

[zdo 20]

Hope is (a flavor of) anxiety.

...and isn't trying to 'stuff it' is as dangerous as stuffing any of the rest of the emotions ???

 

contrary mf today ain't I?

Have a great weekend all

[gosu 10]

  zdo said:

Hope is (a flavor of) anxiety.

...and isn't trying to 'stuff it' is as dangerous as stuffing any of the rest of the emotions ???

 

contrary mf today ain't I?

Have a great weekend all

 

To me, hope is not an emotion but a condition of the mind rooted in not knowing. A person can be hopeful and feel fear/anxiety/anger. A person can be hopeful and also feel no fear, euphoria and joy. My viewpoint, by now probably known to you and others, is that trading decisions ought to be based on knowledge. I know you advocate a "not-knowing" approach so I generally do not comment on your posts as there is little common ground in our views of trading.

[MightyMouse 12]

  zdo said:

Negoc8r

 

I Like this. However, if I may take this a little bit deeper and broader

“lack of preparation”

“biased views”

“inconsistent monitoring of markets”

“indecision”.

“ just can't help but take impulsive trades where you know you shouldn't”

“ don't have rigid enough risk mechanisms in place to exit the trade” etc

all are also ‘fear’ based…

I’m broadening the usage of the word ‘fear’ here because this ‘fear’ is not necessarily accompanied real time by the direct conscious experience of physical sensations and peptides of fear. Those issues you listed are still all ‘caused’ by a chronic background steady state of, to put it bluntly, avoidance… most accurate term for it I’ve seen is chronic ‘fear reactivity’. Neurologically, one way of describing it is the amygdale are habitually oriented towards threat instead of opportunity at an effectively constant ‘baseline’ level which prevents consistent “preparation”, awareness of “biased views”, consistent “monitoring”, and leads to decision fatigue, susceptibility to “impulsive trades”, and incomplete acceptance of risk, etc… fear reactivity limits capacity as effectively as do physical brain lesions… can be imagined as brain lesions self induced by years of 'psychic surgery'.

To will all those things – to “cognitively” will to prepare, to be consistent, to be decisive, to never be impulsive again, etc. are honorable and admirable but they will not get most traders the consistency they really need to get… In near constant fear reactivity it is literally impossible to "manage day-to-day trading objectives properly and thus evade potentially fearful situations in the first place. "

 

... guess I ended up disagreeing with you more than I originally thought I was going to ...

 

Just latching onto your post for no particular reason, but if someone struggles with all these issues, it sounds like getting out of bed is a difficult task. If someone has any number of these issues, then trading probably is just not going to work for him. There are lots of other things to do other than trading.

 

Put another way, if someone has the risk under control, is properly prepared and still cannot execute a trade sufficiently well, then he should really go find something else to do.

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

  DbPhoenix said:

It's as if I never left

 

Db

 

Can anybody tell me who DbPhoenix is, why he/she has been away from the forum for so long, and why his/her return last week has garnered so much enthusiastic response from all the other old hands and maket wizards on here? I feel as though there is some history that I'm missing here . . .

 

BlueHorseshoe

[DbPhoenix 42]

  BlueHorseshoe said:

Can anybody tell me who DbPhoenix is, why he/she has been away from the forum for so long, and why his/her return last week has garnered so much enthusiastic response from all the other old hands and maket wizards on here? I feel as though there is some history that I'm missing here . . .

 

BlueHorseshoe

 

He's some putz who used to pretend that he could trade. But he was found out and has been bunking in a cave in Nepal with a Tibetan monk, attempting to find the enlightenment he was unable to reach trading the ES.

[joshdance 10]

Based on what I read here regarding fear based on 'lack of preparation,' I just created this thread:

 

Pre-Open Plans and Hypotheses - Traders Laboratory Forums

 

Would love to get feedback there regarding preparation, and "plans."

[Obsidian 10]

  zdo said:

how 'bout Both fear and hope?

(not to mention several other possible 'co-emotions'...)

 

haha zdo, cryptic, probably right

I could use "stress" but I said "fear and hope" for a reason because I think the most common problem is:

-it is hope that forces trades to hold on to loser trades

-it is fear that forces traders to get out of trades too early

[SIUYA 11]

  zdo said:

… there’s no getting around “do the preparation”, etc . What I’m talking about is the state from which we do . To distill it down to, for example, ‘relaxed’ (or whatever) is adequate for some… but definitely not for others… and I’m going to “assume” TN cares about those for whom it is not adequate too…

 

I think we are talking the same thing here....my pushing s..t up hill example is that even if you are doing the preparation and going through the emotions. Its just as pointless as not doing them if (any or all of the below)

a....you are not prepared to understand why you are doing them

b....you are actually not committed to doing them properly

c....you are doing them from the wrong state of mind in the first place

d....they are also not suited to either your personality and or trading style.

 

hence as per usual not everyone can apply the same set of rules, and just doing somethings will work for others but not all, and understanding of what works for you is about all that matters.

(if not then, I am totally lost on what you are saying, or very poor at explaining it myself.:doh:)