Who Has A Strategy That Works??

[windsurfer 10]

I agree with you, Koyasan. Thank you for your comment. Your final words (below) echo my experience.

 

Most of what you say applies 100% to me (except my "product" is not the AUD/USD). There is no way I would disclose my system. It is how I make my living.

 

I would suggest to readers that, like you did, they look to a futures product, but a commodity (e.g. GC) or a currency (e.g. AUD/YEN), not a stock index.

 

btw, I did briefly trade on the floor. It was profitable, but nothing I learned there applies to electronic trading.

 

 

I have a strategy that works. I know it works because I make my full time living from it and have been doing that for the past four years. Before that I was part time. I trade only Aud/Usd Futures and typically I get one or two set ups a day,. though occasionally nothing happens.<snip>

 

No magic at all in my system.I have an edge and I work hard to keep it. I occasionally post here because I am bored watching my chart (yes just one chart, on one time frame with dare I say it, indicators and not a whiff of Sam Seiden in sight). If I could retire from this it would not be a day too soon. Don't get me wrong, I am privileged to make my money this way and I am fasinated by the the challenge of TA but hardly bettering humanity in the process and besides I am really a 'people person' so watching a computer is fasinating but not exactly life fulfilling. I trade to pay the bills and pamper my passion for travelling. <snip> In the end I have devised a system which follows simple rules and has minimum discretion,though the system is very far from simplistic.

 

So why don't I just tell you my system and let everyone at least test it or profit by it? I suppose the answer is "Why should I"? Yes I could start my own blog/thread and make it my mission to teach my system.....but for what purpose? To feed my ego? All I really need is to feed my family. In any case someone is bound just to repackage my system and sell it to someone else or more likely not have the discipline to make it work and therfore declare it as 'useless'. I might sound cynical but anyone who has been trading for a few years and is still surviving will know what I mean.

 

So yes, it is possible to have a strategy that works but it requires an awful lot of work to finally come up with a strategy (which incidentally is always evolving to some extent) and a lot of courage (and money) to turn a strategy into making a living. There are few shortcuts in this game.

[kick buttkowski 10]

Koyasan, you are the very type person I was hoping would respond when I originally started this thread. Everything you said I can relate to and live it everyday. I know what you mean and where you're coming from. I have an incredibly successful system that wo I call it jokingly, "stupid." What do I mean by stupid? After 18 years and countless hours of looking at charts beyond number, I came upon a simple method that if I were to show it here, which I won't, each and every person here who has been trading for a little while would say, "no way that will work consistently." Koyasan, like me, has found a method that works for him. We all take different routes, but usually spend thousands of dollars before we finally get there. Koyasan has indicated that his method is not simple, but he has put together something that works for him. That's all that matters. Unless you have a goal for your trading profits beyond just trading, trading sucks in my opinion. It's mundane and boring. They say boring trading leads to being successful and that is true to a large degree. But, beyond that, like Koyasan, I need to feel I am doing something that is worthwhile, that matters. And that is exactly what I do with my trading. If I were trading just for trading sake, I think I would do something else. But, let me repeat this. Most people here and at all the other sites are not successful. And what cracks me up is how they make all the insane comments about how this or that won't work. How can you possibly make such stupid statements when you can't even trade and make money. Stop making such insane statements. Any of it will work, indicators, price only, etc., once you finally figure out how it works for you and you only. But in the meantime, think about what you're saying because it has no value to anyone, especailly when you can't back it up. I may decide one day to share my method here and prove out the profits just to shut people up, but right now, I don't need to. I have no desire to even do a blog or whatever else it is all these other people do to try and show people how great they are at trading when in fact they aren't. It's like old man Sam Walton who use to wear worn overalls and drive a beat up old truck, yet he was worth billions. He didn't have to show off and it didn't matter what anyone else thought. He had it made and he knew it. I am not implying that I am in Walton's category financially at all, but when you know you are doing it or have it, it doesn't matter what anyone else says or thinks. Spend whatever money you need to to take the next step to learn how to trade. Keep you head down and it will come. Thanks again Koyasan for your great post.

[kick buttkowski 10]

Let me add something to my post that I forgot. To all those people again who say indicators don't work, etc., I suggest you read Pit Bull, the book about Marty Schwartz. The guy made hundreds of thousands of dollars per day trading futures and he used a 10 moving average and stochastics. He also liked looking at Fib numbers. As I said above, any of it will work once you figure out how to make it work for you. So, when any of you make statements about how all this stuff won't work, think about Marty Schwartz, perhaps the greatest trader ever. Your arguments start and end there. And if you think Marty Schwartz is somehow different than you and all others, then you don't have a very high opinion of yourself and you probably need to stop any pursuit of trading before you lose all your money and then some.

[prosentti 10]

is there anyone here on this forum that has worked on the floor, been trained by a very successful trader, or learned a setup from working with one of the big institutions or brokers.

 

I think floor does not prove anything. Many floor traders cannot make it remote and vice versa. Trained by the very succesful trader is okay but does not prove either. Good and well known example was that Turtle thing. Big institutions have only few traders who really trade rest of them executes their customers orders or do statiscal/other research. And being in the institutions and trading with the big money is very different when you trade smaller (as the major audience here is doing) so it also may not prove anything.

 

So I think there is no general recipe how to become a succesful trader.

 

If I teach you my system and methods I am 99% sure you will not succeed because the system is for me and you are not me. So I do not care if somebody knows my setups. My setups can be seen here: http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/wyckoff-forum/6459-then-there-were-three-breakouts-retracements-7.html

 

I think that the purpose of these countless trading message boards is just to give you a trading ideas not full working systems. Trading is so much more than simple setups as we all may know.

 

My opinion is that setup presents only 15-20% of the whole trading system. Everybody is searching a good setups but forgot for example that all the money is made (or lost) in the exits. How do you exit is the key question? But every piece must be in fit until you can succeed: self control, money management, position management, exits, setups, correct timeframe which suits you etc.

 

So you can shoot me but I proclaim that everything works in the right hands!

[ZoidtraderG 10]

buy low sell high,

 

buy high sell higher,

 

sell low buy back lower.

 

Education is the only way

[jackmcmillan 10]

I have a strategy that works , at least for me. But why should I tell anyone? What's the motivation? If you like, I'll tell you - for , oh let's say, $5000. It took me years and several accounts to develop it, so why should I give it away for free? Ifd you want to know - you pay. Welcome to the real world!

[xtraCache 10]

Let me add something to my post that I forgot. To all those people again who say indicators don't work, etc., I suggest you read Pit Bull, the book about Marty Schwartz. The guy made hundreds of thousands of dollars per day trading futures and he used a 10 moving average and stochastics. He also liked looking at Fib numbers. As I said above, any of it will work once you figure out how to make it work for you. So, when any of you make statements about how all this stuff won't work, think about Marty Schwartz, perhaps the greatest trader ever. Your arguments start and end there. And if you think Marty Schwartz is somehow different than you and all others, then you don't have a very high opinion of yourself and you probably need to stop any pursuit of trading before you lose all your money and then some.

 

Really? Is this Marty? Trying to drum up book buyers?

Why not tell the story of when all the above indicators stopped working?

s -h - u - t d o w n

Do not always believe what you read, lol.

But with tenacity, back trading crude oil....somewhat?:crap:

[InTheMonkey 10]

There is no magic strategy that will work perfectly forever. A big part of trading successfully is flexibility. If you are too rigid in your maneuvering and how you view things you will miss out on a lot of opportunities, and misjudge a lot of things you do catch.

 

So there is no goose that lays golden eggs. It takes work, patience, and analysis.

[kick buttkowski 10]

xtra, i think you pretty much make my point about people saying things like you did. schwartz is considered one of the greatest traders ever and he did it for a long time and he made millions. i think reasonable minds can agree that he certainly made it work pretty well, did he not? i think we can leave it at that.

[xtraCache 10]

xtra, i think you pretty much make my point about people saying things like you did. schwartz is considered one of the greatest traders ever and he did it for a long time and he made millions. i think reasonable minds can agree that he certainly made it work pretty well, did he not? i think we can leave it at that.

 

Considered by whom?

Do you know him?

Have you executed for him?

I have great respect for his dedication and tenacity which produced his excellent S&P 500 futures trading success. Bear in mind though, that was in the 1980's.

 

Lots of people write books after the fact, good for them. Maybe Monroe Trout will write one, decades after leaving the game with a billion dollars.

[Joseph Connors 10]

I have a strategy that works , at least for me. But why should I tell anyone? What's the motivation? If you like, I'll tell you - for , oh let's say, $5000. It took me years and several accounts to develop it, so why should I give it away for free? Ifd you want to know - you pay. Welcome to the real world!

 

Ok, I hear where you are coming from. You put in the time and money to learn to trade and why should you just give it away? Given that most of the people on this, and all other forums, are struggling to learn to trade and that is the reason they are here, I have a question for you and a couple of others who have said basically the same thing as you.

 

Why are you here?

 

If you have the answers that the rest of us are seeking but are refusing to share those answers then why participate? Is it ego? Does it give you a kick to tease everyone else with the knowledge that you withhold?

 

I think its all BS! I think the truly successful traders are not on these forums, but are too busy making money to engage in foolishness and bravado!

 

So, until you are willing to prove just how successful you are and how you have the trading world by the tail, go on thumping your chests. The rest of us know just what you and your kind are all about!

[SIUYA 11]

 

Why are you here?

 

 

unless you are scalping and really watching the screen for every tick, you might only be doing a few trades a day.....the rest is watching, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. ....that's where the money is. , that's where the secret is. (please deposit 2cents in my pay pal account)

[Vanguard 10]

Saw this thread pop up on my Iphone thought I might add a tidbit for the searchers.

I don't post ever! Apart from posting on Trading Naked BB many years ago but the one trading mantra thats seldom far from my thoughts is from Larry Willams.." Trading Strategies work, Traders dont". Good Luck All

[kick buttkowski 10]

joseph, does it really matter to you if me, jack or anyone else here or any other forum is making money trading. no! personally, i look around because i get bored and i want to see what is going on. i guess the same curiosity that drove me to come up with a trading method is the same that leads me to looking around. and it's not just trading forums. i have other interests that also have blogs or forums that i check out as well. it's funny how when people who do make money trading do make some comments and they're not believed. i think most people with any common sense can probably tell the difference between the real deal and the BS. sometimes my posts are harsh because i see people who are on a track going nowhere and i always make suggestions about what to do or not do. i truly hope all of you make it trading. i really do. there are some good places to go out there to learn to trade and/or get a good basis for getting better. i hope you can find one and get after it. if the price is reasonable, spend it. do some research, but don't squabble and be critical of everyone that wants money to learn what they know. good luck if you find one though. anything over a $1000 deserves a really hard look and probably is not good. you want to learn to trade, not just buy something that is suppose to kick out money why you do nothing. do it right. you have to look at charts by the thousands. if that is something that bores you and doesn't interest you, then trading isn't for you. read al brooks' books about price action trading. that man spent over 20,000 hours learning to identify setups off the 5 minute chart. read his books over and over again and i guarantee you will come away with some great information that will help your trading. good luck.

[windsurfer 10]

Joseph ("then why are you here?") Conners thinks we should not be here if we're not going to publish our strategies.

 

my answer: there is a lot of good advice here about the steps to take, time involved, the products to look at, etc that can be helpful.

 

But if you don't want to put in the time to develop your own methods, you just want to someone to give you their system, maybe you should look for a different way of making money.

 

TANSTAAFL

[Joseph Connors 10]

Joseph ("then why are you here?") Conners thinks we should not be here if we're not going to publish our strategies.

 

my answer: there is a lot of good advice here about the steps to take, time involved, the products to look at, etc that can be helpful.

 

But if you don't want to put in the time to develop your own methods, you just want to someone to give you their system, maybe you should look for a different way of making money.

 

TANSTAAFL

 

 

Windsurfer:

 

I'm not necessarily saying you have to publish your strategies (although why not?), it just doesn't make sense why traders who say they are successful, and do not want to share the reasons for their success, are even on these forums.

 

You say: "my answer: there is a lot of good advice here about the steps to take, time involved, the products to look at, etc that can be helpful." Why would they be interested in advice on subjects they say they have already mastered?

 

My point is why not share what has worked for you? If you are afraid that the word will get out and your setups will no longer work, I think those fears are unfounded. Their is no "Holy Grail". As someone mentioned before, good setups are a dime a dozen. The real secret lies in the psychology and the discipline of trading, but a good setup is needed as well. Plenty of people have shared some setups they use so why not share yours? This stuff of "give me $5000 and I will tell you" smacks of a school playground with " I have a secret and I'm not going to tell you!".

 

Some of you say you are very successful. Great! Forums are for sharing ideas. Why not share? And if you are not into sharing then again my question: Why are you here? This all presupposes that those who claim to be successful traders on these forums are in fact successful.

 

If they are successful, then why not share the information? And if they are not and merely pretending, then they are wasting all our time!

[steve46 12]

Since I am "here" only rarely these day I think I can answer some questions

 

First, yes I have several successful strategies.

 

Second, no I don't share them

 

Third I have taught a few (very few) students how to trade. I did it because I wanted to help. Teaching is work...it is difficult to do and with my experience behind me I now have respect for those who do that work...I no longer teach

 

and a couple of comments for the original poster

 

Websites like this one attract all kinds of people. What they have in common is the interest in learning to make money. Some of them are "my kind of folks" (whatever that means) some are not....I try to help those who seem like they are trying earnestly to learn the business. Others I ignore or try to direct to places where they might find help...Some (who in my opinion

) are infantile persons, get a verbal whipping and they don't like it....thats just too bad...its part of life...so no apologies.

 

There are simple ideas that work..generally they are "right in front of you" meaning that they are obvious but for reasons unknown, the general populace simply doesn't have the skill or the intelligence to find them. Again thats life....there will always be winners and losers.

 

The best advice I can give is to learn to observe patiently and try to see what people are doing in the markets...learn the basics and go slowly...learn to test your ideas and to manage risk and eventually some of you will make it.....

 

If you find a good teacher consider yourself very lucky as that can speed up the process significantly.....if not try to become your own teacher....

 

Good luck

[Predictor 11]

Okay, there is so much wrong with this thread that I don't know where to begin. I think the biggest misconception is that a trader could just tell you in a few words how to be successful. Would anyone expect to be able to have a little "chat" with a surgeon and go out perform surgery? What about a programmer? What about a pilot? What about just about any other job or field? Obviously, nobody would expect that they could be told the "secrets" to becoming a great surgeon, doctor, or programmer but they somehow think this is true in trading. That's the first mistake..

 

Successful traders may use a dominate analysis technique and many traders and market analysts will share analysis techniques --such as Barros swings, market profile, Eliot wave, wyckoff, candlesticks, etc. Part of the confusion comes from a basic misunderstanding, it is not possible to teach one how to trade say "market profile" because market profile is not a trading strategy but a way of analyzing the market. Successful discretionary traders tend to have extensive, often multiple year, experience in using their analysis techniques. There are many market analysts and traders willing to share such techniques. Of course, the nature of such methods make this area a "ripe" grounds for unscrupulous vendors. But, the core focus on developing extensive experience in understanding the market is correct.

 

Analysis techniques differ from strategies which are methods that completely or mostly define the criteria for a trade, think "Turtles". Most successful traders will be able to make use of both extensive experience in understanding markets and/or have multiple defined strategies. Yes, successful traders are very concerned about others copying their strategies. It takes a long time to develop a working strategy, and I personally would never share such a strategy for free and don't know anyone else who would either.

 

A third category of instruction is based on training the activity of trading which is seldom discussed in the public domain. I've focused on this aspect in my ebook, webinar, and newsletter. This type of instruction includes both analysis technique but also trading instruction. My personal approach is to simplify everything as much as possible and throw away anything that doesn't prove itself. The focus in this sort of training is on how to combine analysis with execution. There are a few others who recognize the value in this sort of training.

-

Curtis

The Market Predictor

[koyasan 10]

Since I posted ( genuinely surprised and grateful for such positive responses) the debate has moved on and I thought I would just add a few comments.

 

Sharing my strategy: I am not trying to be coy about this or holding out for someone to pay me for my 'secrets'. I also have no interest in publishing or teaching my strategy for free or otherwise. I make enough money from my trading to live comfortably and to do other things apart from trading. Secondly there is nothing secret in my strategy that you won't discover for yourself if you have a curiosity about the markets and prepared to put in the work.

 

The Logistics of Sharing my Strategy: Lets say I have made more money than I would ever need (unlikely as my other half spends it as fast as I make it) and decided to gift my strategy to the world. I would be giving you one A4 sheet of paper which lays out my rules for set up, trigger, profit targets, money management etc. I would also be giving you my default template in Metastock 11 code containing five indicators, only one of which is my own invention and not in itself a critical component ( but it's my baby,a volume derivative indicator used for confirmation of trend,). The template is simple and clean but the codes behind the indicators are complex. To apply my strategy (as I use it) you will need Metastock Pro version 11, real time data North American subscription and CME futures real time data and a brokerage account to trade Futures. I'm sure my strategy could be applied to other platforms but that's irrelevant to me. Wherever you live in the world you must have the time to watch the markets at least during London time and preferable also New York times though some good set ups do occur during Asian time.

 

If you are still with me, what I can't teach you is the discretionary element in my trading which although minimal is still vital for my success. My discretionary element comes from an understanding of the maths behind each indicator, how they interact to sometimes give false signals and the experience which comes from watching the market and knowing the subtleties of the market I trade (AUD/USD Futures). I also cannot teach you how to trade, I cannot teach you how to accept risk when you are pulling the trigger on the right hand side of the screen. I cannot teach you how to cope with even buying one Futures contract when seconds after you have bought you might be down $100 (roughly 10 ticks) or how not to close a position even if you are up $500, now try multiplying that by 5 contracts. Also what I can't teach you is how I tweak my strategy in line with a market that changes over time due to fundamentals. My strategy is no different from last month but very different from 4 years ago. I also know that my strategy will raise more questions that it answers depending on where you are in your trading experience and I can't fulfill that demand on my time.

 

There are people on this Forum that are still with me and may easily have more knowledge and experience than me. If they saw my strategy they would I think say it makes perfect sense and is sound and will work, but not a single original idea in any of it (except for my Vol Indicator which is not critical). For everyone else I believe there is no way they would invest the time and money to make my startegy work for them, they might still be looking for a 'magic indicator'............most people don't even like Metastock or have the margin capital for Futures Trading. This is really the heart of the problem with trading. As Predictor says in the previous post it's impossible to teach you how to trade in a few words.

 

I want to share an example of how a strategy is not the same as knowing how to trade. Quite a few years ago I was fasinated by Bill Williams (Trading Chaos etc) and read everything that he wrote. I must have spent six months of my life trying to understand his strategy and applying it. I understood everything, and had all the codes on Metastock and I promised myself that I would use part of the expected trading profits to invest in my own education and fly over to one of his trading weekends. The only problem was I never made a single dime , big fat zero. If anything I had a few nightmares about being eaten alive by one of Bill's big Alligators. The twist to this story is that I took the book off the shelf a few months ago, managed to get past my phobia of Alligators, and in a matter of a few hours using a small Forex cash account I made some profitable trades. I was never going to go back to Trading Chaos and of course Bill's stuff was still the same, but it was me who had changed. I could make an average system work. I'm no 'Tiger Woods' of Trading but give Tiger just a putter to play a round of golf and I bet you he would still put in a decent score.

 

So pointless and impractical for me to share my strategy but at the risk of dissapointing a lot of people I will happily tell you the logic. I trade for the most part with the Trend (either Short or Long) entering on Pullbacks, that is it. I trade only AUD/USD Futures on 30min time frame becasuse the trends are common and balances well with risk. My strategy concentrates on how to identify a trend early enough to enter a trade, how to identify a Pullback and above all how to assess risk to minimise the drawdowns when I am always wrong towards the end of the trend. I have my own way of achieving these tasks and my methodolgy does change over time as I have said but the basic logic is the same and I suspect always will be. Other traders have their own methods but if they are Trend traders they are bacically doing the same thing as I do. As I have said before there really are no secrets, do your own homework on your own instrument on your own preferred platform and put in the practice hours and you can if you want to make money in this game.

 

Final thought.......why do I need to bother with Forums? For the same reason I still read trading books, avidly read magaizes such as S&C Magazine and spend countless hours looking at other markets, watching charts and trying to improve my ability to construct and write code......there is always something to learn from everybody no matter where they are in their trading experience (even, if only how not to do it)..........I put in 50/60 hours each week to maintain 'success' , I avoid complacency, I take nothing for granted and I never fall into the trap of thinking I have 'arrived'. Success never comes cheap but the biggest investment is your time.

[pipsmasterone 10]

My two pips

 

I totally agree that once you have a profitable trading strategy, you should keep it to yourself.

Like few others on this thread ,I spent a few years developing a strategy that works for me and for me only, will it work forever? I don't know, but as long as its working, I will continue to use it.

It was mentioned before on this thread - the key is to develop your own strategy (edge) based on your own experience and knowledge, in my opinion, it is the best advice that a successful trader can give to a trader that wants to be successful.

Why some profitable traders read and comment on blogs such as this one without disclosing their strategies?

Here are my reasons: no single trader ever took me "under his wings" and told me exactly what to do (including my personal friend who made millions in the markets) but they were always clues in what they all said, I learned that they were always pointing me in the right direction but left it up to me to develop my own methodology.

They all carefully listened to what I had to say about the markets even though they were making a lot of money and I did not at the time,why? perhaps they could learn something new from me since they were fully aware that markets do change.

 

Cheers

[kick buttkowski 10]

Koyasan and Pips, thanks for your great posts. I'm glad to see that there are people who really get it. I think most of the people on this forum and others do get it and understand, but then you always have some people that have to press things to such an intense level. What both of you said is really profound, but I just know someone is going to come back with a smartass, gotta ruffle the feathers reply about how none of this makes sense.

[TheRumpledOne 14]

Interesting exchange so far!

 

You can train someone how to trade in less than a day just like you can teach them how to play chess in less than a day. It just takes a lifetime to master.

 

I have been posting on trading forums for a decade or so. I have shared many of my systems, methods and indicators that I have developed. I have been called just about every nasty name in the book. But that doesn't deter me. One driving force behind my posting and sharing was because my degree was in computer science and I could not believe the crappy code that was being sold for hundreds or thousands of dollars to traders. I wanted to put those guys out of business. Instead, I was attacked and kicked off of the TradeStation and eSignal forums. For telling the truth that there is NO FIXED SPREAD in Forex, I was kicked off of Forex Factory. But that doesn't deter me.

 

Even on this forum, I have been attacked. But that doesn't deter me. There are those that like what I do. Those are the people for whom I am posting. Many people would have given up posting after a couple of weeks, months or years. I'm not a quitter.

 

The other driving force is a few people helped me for free when I got started trading back in the 1970s and again when I started trading online back in the 1990s. I am PAYING IT FORWARD.

[Mysticforex 13]

unless you are scalping and really watching the screen for every tick, you might only be doing a few trades a day.....the rest is watching, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. ....that's where the money is. , that's where the secret is. (please deposit 2cents in my pay pal account)

 

You hit the nail on the head. . .

 

It's not something easily taught. But watching. waiting. It is usually apparent when something is happening. Jump in, jump out, if I can do that 3 times a day, it's been a good day.

[Drutyper 10]

You hit the nail on the head. . .

 

It's not something easily taught. But watching. waiting. It is usually apparent when something is happening. Jump in, jump out, if I can do that 3 times a day, it's been a good day.

 

This exactly what I do and it takes me only 2-3 hours a day. Not bad for a full days work compared to my friends who work 9-5 mon-fri and thankfully I don't have to do that any longer.

[steve46 12]

I think there are a couple of interesting points that can be taken away from a thread like this one

 

First, it seems obvious that in an economy like this one most small players have already lost most of their discretionary money....likewise we know that todays markets a dominated by institutional players. This tells us that on a daily basis most of you that still have accounts are taking a beating.

 

The comments about "watching and waiting" are important.....the ability to observe and develop information without being at risk is critical in this environment. Every time you pull the trigger it costs money whether you win or not.....and what many do not seem to understand is that you need money to make money....so it is very important to keep your powder dry until you have a very good strategy....one that allows you to make a minimum profit on each trade and to have a fairly high "hit rate" (accuracy)....for those of you with small accounts (less than $10,000) this allows you a chance to make some money and actually build up your base, instead of simply bleeding it dry (fast or slow) paying brokerage fees.

 

I hope the most recent thread on "felton trading" taught people some important lessons. In those threads we learned that folks in the so called educational profession are feeling the effects of this economy just like every one else.....with so few people having discretionary money, vendors are having to go out and search for students. Also you are seeing that many of these vendors simply do not have strategies that work well.....one cannot know whether that is because they 1. Never had an edge to begin with, or 2. Are simply too difficult or complex for students to learn. From my point of view it doesn't matter...the net result is the student loses.

 

A final comment about obtaining "proof"...I realize that is it fashionable to request financial records from vendors....hey...have at it if you must but from my point of view it is much better to do your own investigation. Not only can you obtain the data (your ultimate proof) but the advantage you get from doing this work yourself is that you have up to date evidence that a strategy works (or does not) and if you find something worth doing, the work you did to "prove it" provides you the internal confidence that helps you to "pull the trigger" confidently when you are trading it yourself....In my last class I required students to do this before trading with real money...they didn't like it, until after the exercise was over, then when it came time to put their own money at risk, they all "got it".....during the exercise of accumulating the data, they saw for themselves that trading produces runs of winners and losers (no way around that) during the process they see (they saw for themselves) how many consecutive wins and losses they could expect. I had them do a mandatory preliminary test of 100 data points, and for those willing to take my recommendation, (for my final class) I asked them to accumulate 400 data points using several different historical time periods (covering several different market conditions). The final "proof of the pudding" came at the end of the class, when I asked them to stop and go out on their own....those who had done the work are still trading and making money....those who did not aren't doing so well...(I only trained eight students over two classes). Especially for those working on their own, I suggest you take the time to do this work....it will pay you back many times over....

 

Good luck

Edited July 7, 2012 by steve46