If I Hear "price Action" or "setup" ONE More Time...

[Roger Felton 10]

If I hear... "setup" ONE more time...

 

This is a perfectly valid word to describe an opportunity to enter the market. I get that. But it has taken the front seat of priority and has become the #1 word for people who seem to want to dumb down the market to the extent that they spend every hour of the day looking for "setups." One time a friend of mine and I took an opposite market position. He asked why I would take that position, and what it was based on? I said something like, "well, the market broke below this, and the volume was substantial, and the tape felt short," or something along those lines. I asked him what his was based on. He said, "It's based on probabilities, and a setup." I can't articulate without using the exact words, but suffice it to say that he was implying with his words he used at the time that his "setup" was far superior to my seemingly idiotic and baseless premise for my position, because he had--wait--a SETUP. Oh, and he had tested it thoroughly. Meaningless, but bully for him.

 

It's this kind of thing that I hear traders parroting, and sometimes I don't think they realize what they're even saying. "Find one setup and that's all you need." Really? And how many professional traders have a list of setups on their desks called "The Boomerang" and "The Dragon Tail" and "The Doogie Howser," and trade them faithfully every time? The market, to me, is more than just a bunch of setups. It's alive, breathing, and will kick your setup's ass from here to Timbuktu, especially if you insist on "sticking with the setup" every time you see it. The market loves to punish people who are lazy enough that they are not willing to learn how to trade, but who insist on learning "setups."

 

I'm not quite sure the problem with "Setup" is. A trader either has a system/method or they don't. If they don't, they won't be a trader very long. If they do, they they have "Setups"...unless they just sit on their hands and never enter the market.

 

It's important to note that markets are NOT living breathing entities. They are merely the product of a vast number of trader's pushing and pulling price up and down helter skelter in a nearly random fashion..."nearly" being the operative word.

 

Humans build bridges and skyscrapers but the products of their labor are NOT living things. Traders are alive, Markets are not. Once the trader realizes this fact, they quit seeing the market as the enemy. As a trader, your only enemy is yourself.

 

Whether you call them a Setup, Entry Point, Trigger Pull or Pull My Finger, what difference does it make? It's where a position is taken and whether it wins or loses is irrelevant. Any trader who takes "Setups" just because they are there will never make it. A lot of factors are in play at any given moment and a great Setup that worked an hour ago may have little chance now.

 

Every market entry must be highly filtered based on all of the pertinant factors happening NOW. This is where excellent coding skills can be extremely effective. Only the best programmers who are also good traders will get it right. Computers can filter and test 10,000 things and spit out the answer in the blink of an eye. The key is in the coding...but that's a topic for another time in another thread.

[Trin 10]

Lets' also add Profit, Trade Management and maybe Risk Control. Do ya think removing certain words from trading jargon also removes their importance?

 

As much as some of us may be annoyed by hearing the retail trader jargon, most of this tribal language contains the truths to real success. For profitable traders, the jargon are words of wisdom, reminders, lessons learned by those who actually paid the cost to trade for a living.

[Obsidian 10]

Can we add discipline and consistency to that list?

 

Lets' also add Profit, Trade Management and maybe Risk Control. Do ya think removing certain words from trading jargon also removes their importance?

 

why are you removing these words

[Roger Felton 10]

why are you removing these words

 

I'm not removing any words...you missed the sarcasm. I was expressing the ignorance of believing that choosing to not hear certain words would magically make them unimportant. However, I do agree that many "gurus" seem to latch on to certain popular buzz words and use them until traders are sick of hearing them.

 

My philosophy is that trading educators like myself should impress traders with their trading performance, not their buzz word parroting BS.

[joshdance 10]

Every market entry must be highly filtered based on all of the pertinant factors happening NOW. This is where excellent coding skills can be extremely effective. Only the best programmers who are also good traders will get it right. Computers can filter and test 10,000 things and spit out the answer in the blink of an eye. The key is in the coding...but that's a topic for another time in another thread.

 

And do you happen to have software that can do this for sale? Yes, you do.. what a coincidence. You've just been banned from another forum.. seeking new revenue streams here? In full disclosure, shouldn't you be registered as a vendor here? It's in your profile settings.

[Roger Felton 10]

And do you happen to have software that can do this for sale? Yes, you do.. what a coincidence. You've just been banned from another forum.. seeking new revenue streams here? In full disclosure, shouldn't you be registered as a vendor here? It's in your profile settings.

 

Anyone who has ever met me knows that no one is ever asked or encouraged to buy anything from me...EVER. I joined TL to learn and help.

 

You are correct, I was recently banned from another forum but not for breaking any rules. Over the past year, I was directly responsible for over 400 of that "other" forums new paid members...and never even got a thank you for my efforts. His hatred of me for no reason other than my profession was clear from day one. It's the same dislike vibes I'm picking up from you. Déjà vu...I got them constantly from that forum's administrator (who is also an education vendor who charges a fee!)

 

As for the reason I was banned, I had a private email conversation with a private individual where I expressed my personal lack of faith in the administrators trading skills. Simple as that. It was pertinent to a question posed to me by the individual. Had the admin not been trying to pass himself off as a trading "expert", the subject would never have come up in that email conversation. I simply expressed a personal opinion based on several facts. I had not realized that I was a member of a forum where I could not express my opinion in a private email exchange OUTSIDE OF THE FORUM and be banned for doing so! If it hadn't happened to me I would not have thought it possible for a successful forum to be run that way. Again, it was a private conversation and not a forum post.

 

You will never see me here or on any other forum trying to sell anything to anyone at any time. I do encourage all traders, if they have a good mechanical system, to code it because it reduces mistakes and makes the job of trading so much easier and enjoyable. It's also a good indicator of the level of subjectivity involved in the system itself.

 

I disclosed my full actual name here. I'm not hiding anything and was unaware that there is a "vendor" option to register. I'll check and correct it the option does exist.

 

If allowed, I may consider offering any member of Traders Laboratory complete and unlimited access to my daily trading room with the understanding that no one will ever approach them at any time to try to sell them anything. I prefer it to be an exclusive offer to the members of whatever forum I can find that appreciates the tremendous promotional effort I put into it and the many hopurs of time I devote to helping those members free of charge. That generous offer was greatly appreciated by the members of the "other" forum and many will be greatly disappointed when I have to discontinue it. The depth of appreciation for my assistance to that group is evidenced by the many positive posts that appear there every day concerning me. I'll miss those guys.

 

Even though you don't know me, never met me and have no knowledge of what I do, your dislike for me is obvious simply because I'm a vendor. I hope that's not representative of the typical TL member. I have a tremendous amount of good, solid FREE assistance that I eargerly give to any trader willing to learn...been doing that for the past 15years. Nobody has to get out their wallet to get my help.

 

I tend to find most traders to be skeptical of anything that's not free...and I have no problem with that. Fortunately, I don't find too many like yourself that form a strong instant dislike of me based solely on my profession. That's something I'll probably never understand.

[MightyMouse 12]

And do you happen to have software that can do this for sale? Yes, you do.. what a coincidence. You've just been banned from another forum.. seeking new revenue streams here? In full disclosure, shouldn't you be registered as a vendor here? It's in your profile settings.

 

Friggin Josh! You sniffed him out.

[OptionsBaller 10]

Don't forget to BTFD

[Roger Felton 10]

Friggin Josh! You sniffed him out.

 

 

Well, this doesn't seem to be the fair and open minded type group I was hoping for. Somewhere a forum exists consisting of traders who will judge me by how much I help them in sharing free indicators and free mentorship time. A forum of traders who are willing to just give me a chance to help them and promise to slam me unmercifully if I don't.

 

That forum is out there somewhere ...but I'm just not seeing it here. See ya....

[Roger Felton 10]

:ciao: There are those in this world who do charitable works but don't like to talk about it.Then there are those who do charitable works and want everyone to know.Naturally,we tend to suspect the motives of the latter group.Human nature is not going to change on another forum.

So are you "The Shepherd" or are you"The weak" ? Guess the jury just decided it's got better things to do...........

 

The "charitable" work I do is never advertised anywhere...not in magazines, webinars or the website. But what good is willingness to help if nobody would ever know about it? I don't personally consider a genuine offer to do something I'm very good at to be beating my chest or tooting my horn about how great I am. What matters is how great you are...and how great can you be.

 

It's really getting clear that this isn't my kind of forum so I'll bid you guys the best and simply move on. Thanks.

[4EverMaAT 10]

The use of the phrase "price action trader" has become laughable lately because too many that use that phrase are traders that still indicators on their charts...usually just one or two indicators. Yet, when you ask them why they have indicators on their charts...they say the indicators have no impact on their trade decisions. :doh:

 

No, no, no, no, no! You've got it all wrong, Roztom! You obviously need lessons:

 

http://www.priceactionmasterclass.com

 

That'll be $2000 please . . .

 

(ps can't quite believe that the URL above hasn't actually been registered!)

 

This thread was one of the best that I've read, and bluehorse's skit on fish.....classic:rofl:

 

The central problem is actually the mis-use of the word in general, where the author does not define the terms that they are using in addressing their audience. The audience has to then assume that their own definition of price action is the same definition that the author is referring to. In the ambiguity, some members of the audience will say "oh, that's what I was looking for". Of course, when you put the actual method or strategy of replicating the price action in practice, you may find out just how deadly ASSumptions can be.

 

This can be solved by the author simply defining the terms they will be using.

 

BTW, "risk" is another one of those general terms that are tossed about; very few people actually define what risk means to them and how they calculate it.

[4EverMaAT 10]

I'm not quite sure the problem with "Setup" is. A trader either has a system/method or they don't. If they don't, they won't be a trader very long. If they do, they they have "Setups"...unless they just sit on their hands and never enter the market.

 

It's important to note that markets are NOT living breathing entities. They are merely the product of a vast number of trader's pushing and pulling price up and down helter skelter in a nearly random fashion..."nearly" being the operative word.

 

Humans build bridges and skyscrapers but the products of their labor are NOT living things. Traders are alive, Markets are not. Once the trader realizes this fact, they quit seeing the market as the enemy. As a trader, your only enemy is yourself.

You should more clearly define "system". For me, a trading system (or any system) must be completely mechanical; all decisions are accounted for ahead of time. You have your primary objectives, plus the appropriate "if-then" statements for any detours.

 

Whether you call them a Setup, Entry Point, Trigger Pull or Pull My Finger, what difference does it make? It's where a position is taken and whether it wins or loses is irrelevant. Any trader who takes "Setups" just because they are there will never make it. A lot of factors are in play at any given moment and a great Setup that worked an hour ago may have little chance now.

 

Every market entry must be highly filtered based on all of the pertinant factors happening NOW. This is where excellent coding skills can be extremely effective. Only the best programmers who are also good traders will get it right. Computers can filter and test 10,000 things and spit out the answer in the blink of an eye. The key is in the coding...but that's a topic for another time in another thread.

 

Here's the trick to using computer automation, or any type of automation/system/etc: the computer can only do what it is told to do. The computer is not a magician, however it can usually compute repetitive tasks much cheaper, quicker, faster, etc and with greater precision, flexibility, etc than with the human labor attempting the same tasks.:missy:

Edited May 29, 2012 by 4EverMaAT

[gosu 10]

Well, this doesn't seem to be the fair and open minded type group I was hoping for. Somewhere a forum exists consisting of traders who will judge me by how much I help them in sharing free indicators and free mentorship time. A forum of traders who are willing to just give me a chance to help them and promise to slam me unmercifully if I don't.

That forum is out there somewhere ...but I'm just not seeing it here. See ya....

 

Hi Roger,

 

You are not describing traders. People who look for free indicators and free mentorship on a message board are your potential customers, who are not traders.

 

As a self-proclaimed member of the fair and open minded group, I can tell you I don't give a shit about your free indicators or mentorship and that goes double for your altruism. On the other hand, I don't give a shit if you offer nothing and are here just looking for customers either. If your posts are mildly amusing to make me smile or even spectacularly insipid to make me shake my head, you will have my appreciation.

[Roger Felton 10]

You should more clearly define "system". For me, a trading system (or any system) must be completely mechanical; all decisions are accounted for ahead of time. You have your primary objectives, plus the appropriate "if-then" statements for any detours.

 

 

 

Here's the trick to using computer automation, or any type of automation/system/etc: the computer can only do what it is told to do. The computer is not a magician, however it can usually compute repetitive tasks much cheaper, quicker, faster, etc and with greater precision, flexibility, etc than with the human labor attempting the same tasks.:missy:

 

Probably just a difference in terminology. To me, a trading method is a totally mechanical means of trading void of any computerization whatsoever. Like the trader who watches two crossover MA's and some pivot points, Or one who trades by watching price alone. The trader gets no assistance from program code in any way.

 

In my circles, a trading system is not necessarily a trading robot. Total automation is not necessary to be a trading system. Some level of computer code is necessary to crunch massive amounts of data and deliver pertinent information to the trader. This can be in the form of entries, entry filters, market condition on several other timeframes, what's the best chart type and timeframe to use, backtest and forward testing data, trade management assistance, strong and weak signal form, audible and visual alerts, factors posing potential problems, trader performance evaluation capability, etc. The possibilities are endless but, ideally, it should automatically be adaptable to what's happening currently in the market....not what happened an hour ago...or 6 months ago for that matter.

 

This does not mean that the system must also auto-trade. Personally, I'm not a fan of these auto trade systems that make big bucks while the trader clips their toenails. None work well for very long and all have brutal drawdown periods. If this were not the case, you couldn't buy such a system for a million dollars. Really good robust ones don't exist so I do not include them in my definition of trading system.

[joshdance 10]

It's really getting clear that this isn't my kind of forum so I'll bid you guys the best and simply move on. Thanks.

 

You may want to consider forexfactory if you haven't been there yet. Lots of truly fresh meat ... their 'Trading Systems' subforum seems to be very active, see the attached picture. All of these updated in the last 10 hours alone! Plenty of real newbies there who are searching for the latest grail that will help them be successful without actually engaging their brains. Just look at those thread titles -- all "systems" designed to make trading easy...

 

remove the trading decisions from the human and offload to a computer =>

remove the discretion =>

remove the thinking =>

remove the accountability ...

 

equals... "it's not me, it's my system"... repeat the process with a new "system"...

 

Isn't that pretty much how it goes?

[Roger Felton 10]

You may want to consider forexfactory if you haven't been there yet. Lots of truly fresh meat ... their 'Trading Systems' subforum seems to be very active, see the attached picture. All of these updated in the last 10 hours alone! Plenty of real newbies there who are searching for the latest grail that will help them be successful without actually engaging their brains. Just look at those thread titles -- all "systems" designed to make trading easy...

 

remove the trading decisions from the human and offload to a computer =>

remove the discretion =>

remove the thinking =>

remove the accountability ...

 

equals... "it's not me, it's my system"... repeat the process with a new "system"...

 

Isn't that pretty much how it goes?

 

No, actually it's not. As I've said a thousand times, no trading system is any better than the trader behind it pushing the buttons. There is a huge difference between a trading software assisting with all the measuring, calculating, anticipating, back testing, forward testing, data crunching and other timeframe activity and a software doing all the decision making for the trader. If the latter is what you seek, you will never be successful and that comes with a guarantee.

 

I could easily pre-judge you guys to be a bunch of jaded, angry, frustrated losers who can't take personal responsibility for your own lack of discipline and resulting failure. But that would be neither fair nor is it the kind of person I am to form baseless opinions when I have never met any of you. Would it not make at least a little sense if just one of you guys would extend the same courtesy?

 

Look, I'm not interested in "fresh meat" but I appreciate your thoughtfulness. If I needed to expand my student base, I would advertise. I never have and never will. My students come almost 100% from word-of-mouth and I prefer it that way.

 

I have found that, in almost every forum, there are traders who are trying really hard, have lost money, have been scammed & lied to, feel frustrated and would appreciate it greatly if someone with the actual ability to help, actually would...and not ask for a credit card. I just poked my nose in the wrong forum and I apologize if anyone took offense. No harm intended.

 

I can and will help any trader who asks for it and all I ask in return is for their honest feedback. If I don't help, if my offer to help is actually a ploy to get them to buy anything, if I lie to them in any way, then I pray that they would slam me unmercifully in every trading room they can find. I'd certainly deserve it. But slamming without giving me a chance does nobody any good.

 

I had no idea that an unseffish offer of kindness and generosity would generate this kind of response. I made a mistake so please forgive my ignorance.

 

Take care...

[4EverMaAT 10]

You may want to consider forexfactory if you haven't been there yet. Lots of truly fresh meat ... their 'Trading Systems' subforum seems to be very active, see the attached picture. All of these updated in the last 10 hours alone! Plenty of real newbies there who are searching for the latest grail that will help them be successful without actually engaging their brains. Just look at those thread titles -- all "systems" designed to make trading easy...

 

remove the trading decisions from the human and offload to a computer =>

remove the discretion =>

remove the thinking =>

remove the accountability ...

 

equals... "it's not me, it's my system"... repeat the process with a new "system"...

 

Isn't that pretty much how it goes?

or babypips. I did get a chance to follow some of the price action threads and it seems like when I ask some basic questions about entry/exit, etc, the rules always seem to be very subjective "depending on how price moves around the next bar or the bar after, etc..." no specific if-then rules.

 

The irony is that a complete system:

 

- imitates the trading decisions of the human, but allows instructions to be followed unattended, and can be scaled to handle faster market conditions in a more consistent manner than human mouse click.

- removes second-guessing.

- encourages thought and even improvement, see below.

- forces you to be more accountable. Because it would have required a logical set of instructions to begin with. Plus you have the added benefit of observing how your system works outside of yourself. Like sketching a concept on a whiteboard or mindmap.

 

Obviously with a blackbox system you cannot know this. Build your own OR buy a system that is easy to understand and you understand how to control the different "levers".

[Roger Felton 10]

You may want to consider forexfactory if you haven't been there yet. Lots of truly fresh meat ... their 'Trading Systems' subforum seems to be very active, see the attached picture. All of these updated in the last 10 hours alone! Plenty of real newbies there who are searching for the latest grail that will help them be successful without actually engaging their brains. Just look at those thread titles -- all "systems" designed to make trading easy...

 

remove the trading decisions from the human and offload to a computer =>

remove the discretion =>

remove the thinking =>

remove the accountability ...

 

equals... "it's not me, it's my system"... repeat the process with a new "system"...

 

Isn't that pretty much how it goes?

 

 

Sure, many traders jump from one system to another and never realize the root cause of their failures. I'm not trying to teach anyone a "system" and I'm not looking for "fresh meat". Word of mouth referrals is the only way I care to take on a new student and I have plenty of those.

 

But let's do this...you continue to believe whatever you choose about me and I'll choose to believe that TL is a bunch of vile, jaded, ignorant traders who can't take responsibility for their lack of discipline or their gullibility in choosing obvious bogus systems.

 

That way, we can both go on living in blissful mistaken ignorance because we are all too lazy to get to know what each other are about before passing judgment.

 

Isn't that pretty much how it goes?

[Roger Felton 10]

or babypips. I did get a chance to follow some of the price action threads and it seems like when I ask some basic questions about entry/exit, etc, the rules always seem to be very subjective "depending on how price moves around the next bar or the bar after, etc..." no specific if-then rules.

 

The irony is that a complete system:

 

- imitates the trading decisions of the human, but allows instructions to be followed unattended, and can be scaled to handle faster market conditions in a more consistent manner than human mouse click.

- removes second-guessing.

- encourages thought and even improvement, see below.

- forces you to be more accountable. Because it would have required a logical set of instructions to begin with. Plus you have the added benefit of observing how your system works outside of yourself. Like sketching a concept on a whiteboard or mindmap.

 

Obviously with a blackbox system you cannot know this. Build your own OR buy a system that is easy to understand and you understand how to control the different "levers".

 

 

For the past 12 years I have had a standing offer to anyone who had an autotraded system or black box that could reasonably compare with my discretionary trading performance over a period of just one year, and I would gladly pay them one million dollars for it. To date, no one has stepped forward. Does that say something?

[SunTrader 10]

You have to have a million to put up a million.

 

I suppose you provided proof you have a million - and if so that you can put up at any moment, huh?

[gosu 10]

For the past 12 years I have had a standing offer to anyone who had an autotraded system or black box that could reasonably compare with my discretionary trading performance over a period of just one year, and I would gladly pay them one million dollars for it. To date, no one has stepped forward. Does that say something?

 

I don't know. Did you announce the offer to people in a place where they hang out like Collective2? Or was it sitting in your living room just within earshot of your dog?

 

Where can I find the terms of this offer? I do not autotrade or use blackboxes, but if your offer is legitimate I can forward it to the right places where I know your challenge will be accepted.

[gosu 10]

I've never bet on a dog before...until now. :rofl: Full of wind Felton just ignores the questions.

 

I am beginning to appreciate this Roger Felton. He's a hot shot trading educator who throws down a million dollar challenge to back up his actual trading prowess. I don't know why he keeps saying this site is not for him, as it sure could benefit from just his style alone.

[Patuca 13]

For the past 12 years I have had a standing offer to anyone who had an autotraded system or black box that could reasonably compare with my discretionary trading performance over a period of just one year, and I would gladly pay them one million dollars for it. To date, no one has stepped forward. Does that say something?

Roger, ...you little egotistical tamale ...mitsubishi could probally sit in a black box and out trade out you any day. if he fails i could jump on my bicycle and come up there.

[Roger Felton 10]

Did you get that idea from James Randi?

 

Challenge Info

 

No, that offer just popped into my head while I was a guest speaker at a Money Show in Vegas a little over a dozen years ago. I have no clue who James Randi is. New "gurus" pop up overnight and I can't keep track of them. But I doubt if I'm the only guy in the world that thinks it would be a bargain to find an autotrader system that wins 87% of the time with just 4 losing days this year. It would be a bargain, though, even at 5 million.

[Roger Felton 10]

I don't know. Did you announce the offer to people in a place where they hang out like Collective2? Or was it sitting in your living room just within earshot of your dog?

 

Where can I find the terms of this offer? I do not autotrade or use blackboxes, but if your offer is legitimate I can forward it to the right places where I know your challenge will be accepted.

 

The terms are simple. One million for an autotrader system that can just come close to my personal discretionary trading results. No more than 5 losing days per year and those must not lose more than 2% of the trading account balance on any losing day. No periodic tweaking allowed either when market dynamics trash the auto trader system. It must be able to automatically adjust to whatever is going on in the market at any given time. It should be able to trade any market that moves and be profitable in volatile, choppy and trending markets.

 

Takers?....I didn't think so. There is a reason why you and I don't autotrade.