[es] What Do I Need to Learn

[MightyMouse 12]

It's all in the method. Without a method, it's just gambling.

 

But not just any method. You need a good method - no, a GREAT method. Then you can trust your method completely.

 

No "mechanical" method will ever do. You will never trust a mechanical method completely.

 

Your method will always require the use of good judgment. Your method is THE way you form good judgment. Then it is not about using instinct. It is about OBEYING.

 

The only potential instinct that a human has is an infant's sucking instinct when placed near a breast.

 

I have been in trades that have left my mouth in a sucking motion so instinct may in fact be a part of trading.

[phantom 16]

No "mechanical" method will ever do. You will never trust a mechanical method completely.

 

Your method will always require the use of good judgment. Your method is THE way you form good judgment. Then it is not about using instinct. It is about OBEYING.

 

Sorry Gosu, but its obvious that you just don't know what you are talking about in this case...

 

I've been trading "mechanical" methods for years and I am a very successful trader, by any measure. In fact, I am currently the chief trading advisor for a hedge fund which is listed (on the internet) in the top 10 of last year's best funds. (Greater than a 25% return to our investors).

 

Goodoboy, its just like I said before. Most of the advice you'll receive is put forth by those who are not qualified to give the advice. That's just a cold, hard fact.

 

Be very careful where you place your trust when it comes to money matters. Most of these guys couldn't trade their way out of a paper bag, and that's the truth.

 

Furthermore, Joshdance challenged me earlier : "The important thing is for the poster to go through the process of finding what he personally likes, not trading something because someone else says it's good." If certain aspects of trading are not brought to the forefront, how will a newbie ever find these truths?

 

Most of the folks who post on this website will not offer anything of substance, mostly due to the fact that they have very little to offer at all... My advice is to look to those who have actually posted information that you can test for yourself and take to the bank. Everything else is, well, B.S.

 

 

Luv,

Phantom

[gosu 10]

Sorry Gosu, but its obvious that you just don't know what you are talking about in this case...

 

I've been trading "mechanical" methods for years and I am a very successful trader, by any measure. In fact, I am currently the chief trading advisor for a hedge fund which is listed (on the internet) in the top 10 of last year's best funds. (Greater than a 25% return to our investors).

 

Goodoboy, its just like I said before. Most of the advice you'll receive is put forth by those who are not qualified to give the advice. That's just a cold, hard fact.

 

Be very careful where you place your trust when it comes to money matters. Most of these guys couldn't trade their way out of a paper bag, and that's the truth.

 

Furthermore, Joshdance challenged me earlier : "The important thing is for the poster to go through the process of finding what he personally likes, not trading something because someone else says it's good." If certain aspects of trading are not brought to the forefront, how will a newbie ever find these truths?

 

Most of the folks who post on this website will not offer anything of substance, mostly due to the fact that they have very little to offer at all... My advice is to look to those who have actually posted information that you can test for yourself and take to the bank. Everything else is, well, B.S.

 

 

Luv,

Phantom

 

No need to apologize. You are entitled to form your own opinion like everyone else and to express it as well. In my post I expressed my opinion. It was not meant as advice, as you say. It is just something that I've arrived at from my own experience.

 

Now, I cannot claim to have the authority of "the chief trading advisor for a hedge fund listed on the internet". But to be fair, from the get go I've claimed no authority and stated I'm here mostly to bullshit. I can say, however, that I did much better than 25% last year on my account, but I know I am not comparing apples to apples.

 

In any case, I am in agreement with your statment that most people who post actually offer little substance. So it is wise to be skeptical. However, I would take it one step further and say to be especially skeptical of people who offer advice claiming they've actually posted things of substance or something you can "take to the bank."

 

Love and kisses,

 

gosu

[goodoboy 10]

Sorry Gosu, but its obvious that you just don't know what you are talking about in this case...

 

I've been trading "mechanical" methods for years and I am a very successful trader, by any measure. In fact, I am currently the chief trading advisor for a hedge fund which is listed (on the internet) in the top 10 of last year's best funds. (Greater than a 25% return to our investors).

 

Goodoboy, its just like I said before. Most of the advice you'll receive is put forth by those who are not qualified to give the advice. That's just a cold, hard fact.

 

Be very careful where you place your trust when it comes to money matters. Most of these guys couldn't trade their way out of a paper bag, and that's the truth.

 

Furthermore, Joshdance challenged me earlier : "The important thing is for the poster to go through the process of finding what he personally likes, not trading something because someone else says it's good." If certain aspects of trading are not brought to the forefront, how will a newbie ever find these truths?

 

Most of the folks who post on this website will not offer anything of substance, mostly due to the fact that they have very little to offer at all... My advice is to look to those who have actually posted information that you can test for yourself and take to the bank. Everything else is, well, B.S.

 

 

Luv,

Phantom

 

Thank you Phantom for the comments and advice. And everyone comment. I agree with you concept, trading with a systematic or mechanical approach seems more understanding and strategic. One thing I have on my side is patience. I am not in a rush to take a trade, that is not a high probability of me winning. I manage to get 2 points this week. That's a start to recovery!

 

I will continue to put in the hours of reading here, watching webinars, and practice daily/nightly. Right now, besides the technical and finding a method that works for me, I focus more on risk vs reward and waiting for the right trade for me, until I recover.

 

Thanks,

[phantom 16]

I would take it one step further and say to be especially skeptical of people who offer advice claiming they've actually posted things of substance or something you can "take to the bank."

 

Love and kisses,

 

gosu

 

People, like yourself, do seem to take things out of context...

 

My comment was, in fact, " look to those who have actually posted information that you can test for yourself and take to the bank."

 

The difference is subtle, but oh, so important.

[Tams 20]

Trading is a philosophy.

 

Trading is Zen.

 

Trading is not about methods, or systems. (most will ultimately fail.)

 

Trading is about understanding the market, and its participants.

 

There is nothing new under the sun,

people's behavior (ie greed) is the same whether you are black white brown Indian Hispanic Asian Russian...

people's behavior (ie greed) is the same 100 years ago, and 100 years from now.

 

The market is a reflection of people's behavior.

 

Understanding people's behavior is

understanding philosophy.

 

Just like Zen... it requires deep meditation.

[gosu 10]

People, like yourself, do seem to take things out of context...

 

My comment was, in fact, " look to those who have actually posted information that you can test for yourself and take to the bank."

 

The difference is subtle, but oh, so important.

 

Since it seems important to you, I attempted to edit my post to add "that you can test for yourself and..." to the quote in my post. Unfortunately, the time for editing a post has been exceeded. To me it doesn't change the intended point, but consider it added.

 

I have not read the posts that you seem proud of; therefore I cannot offer an opinion about your claim. I will not speak for others, but as for me, finding something that I can test for myself and take to the bank is not why I come here, so you will understand if I do not show any interest in your generous gift.

 

From my own experience, I have yet to find anything that can be picked up by any visitor to a message board that he can test for himself and take to the bank time and time again without eventually being taken to the cleaners. That is usually the claim of someone who has something to sell. I am not accusing you of being such a person; I am just speaking from my own and very limited experience.

 

I have been known to be wrong, but I do not shy away from the consequences of being wrong. If you did indeed put forth a money machine on this site that we can test for ourselves and take to the bank, I will just have to live with the thought of having missed out on a fortune because of laziness.

[onesmith 10]

Strategies based upon timeless emotions, take $$$$ from those with the same understanding of these timeless emotions. Meditated philosophers who write code come from the same set of meditated philosophers who don't prepare by writing code.

 

Trading is Trading. Trading is not zen.

Zen is Zen. Zen is not trading.

Different philosophy?

Who can say it doesn't work for someone using it to attain their state.

Which would Aristotle prefer?

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

Trading is not about methods, or systems. (most will ultimately fail.)

 

Isn't it a mathematical certainty that all systems will eventually fail?

 

But that doesn't mean that systems are unworkable. My car will eventually fail, but I still drive it around every day. If I buy a brand new car then I know the likelihood of it failing shortly after I've driven it off the forecourt is very small.

 

Having a 'market philosophy' is all very well, but a trader needs a formalised way to turn idle perspective into an opportunity to profit. It's a bit like having the perspective that cruelty to animals is wrong. Lot's of people would tend to agree, but very few actually set about in an organised manner to actively reduce instances of cruelty to animals.

 

A system or method, though ultimately it will fail, is the best way to go about transposing a generalised philosophy into objective action.

 

It would be interesting to hear the market philosophies of those on this thread - how does everyone view the markets in a very general sense?

 

Bluehorseshoe

[Tams 20]

Isn't it a mathematical certainty that all systems will eventually fail?

 

But that doesn't mean that systems are unworkable. My car will eventually fail, but I still drive it around every day. If I buy a brand new car then I know the likelihood of it failing shortly after I've driven it off the forecourt is very small.

 

Having a 'market philosophy' is all very well, but a trader needs a formalised way to turn idle perspective into an opportunity to profit. It's a bit like having the perspective that cruelty to animals is wrong. Lot's of people would tend to agree, but very few actually set about in an organised manner to actively reduce instances of cruelty to animals.

 

A system or method, though ultimately it will fail, is the best way to go about transposing a generalised philosophy into objective action.

 

It would be interesting to hear the market philosophies of those on this thread - how does everyone view the markets in a very general sense?

 

Bluehorseshoe

 

I did not say systems are unworkable;

to be a consistent long term survivor,

a noob should not first seek systems or methods,

but to seek an understanding of the market and its participants.

 

 

 

ps. regarding systems and methods,

just stop for a moment and think,

(you don't have to post an answer this question, this is just a thinking question)

how long you have been using your system?

when was the last time you make a little tweak to this system?

how many iteration of tweaks have you done before you arrived in this system?

 

And do you know where are you in the continuum of tweaks and the ultimate system?

 

 

My point is, once upon a time, you (me, as well as everyone) thought we had the ultimate system... then we tweak it a bit here, then tweak it a bit there...

everytime you tweak your system, you are actually telling yourself the "old" system is a failure.

 

If your current system is not the ultimate system, then your system will fail, right?

 

 

 

This is a philosophy, it will take a while for people to absorb, and to accept.

When you have arrived at an understanding, you have got Zen.

 

Good Trading.

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

And do you know where are you in the continuum of tweaks and the ultimate system?

 

I agree with your view that a market philosophy should form the basis of a trading system and that new traders should seek to develop the former before focussing on the latter (I've posted to make this exact point earlier in this thread). Beyond that I'm not sure that I understand what your point is, but that's probably just be me being a bit stupid.

 

As for tweaks, good systems ought to tweak themselves, no?

 

Bluehorseshoe

[onesmith 10]

Study strategies. Learn how to program. The other suggestions might help but they're inefficient and unnecessary diversions.

[davejacksondj 10]

RUN, don't walk away from Craig Ross sole operator of Apex Futures. He makes up his own bogus margin calls (doesn't follow the industry - CME standards) and forced me out of positions without any warning. Then he deliberately doesn't answer his phone.

It is NOT his platform you think you're using but OEC (Open Out Cry) out of NY. All he did was copy their stuff. I switched to OEC directly and bypass bogus Craig -- even save on commissions. Their info. should be on your daily statements or go to epenecry.com

[jolee 10]

I did this exercise many , many moons ago which I'd read about from some trading book.

Sit down somewhere and play the heads or tails coin toss game for an hour or two. If you loose , you'll loose one coin. If you win you get two coins. That's all descretionary trading is about - except you can also cover the coin after flipping and not play which in trading is to get out of the trade before loosing the coin or you can win more coins by trailing stops.

 

I can't imagine how after learning all about chart patterns , trendlines, support and resistance, breath indicators and internals and momentum, price action and indicators, market profile and price volume ladder, etc whatever- why we still can't enter a trade with a better than 50% chance win or no better than a coin toss.

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

I did this exercise many , many moons ago which I'd read about from some trading book.

Sit down somewhere and play the heads or tails coin toss game for an hour or two. If you loose , you'll loose one coin. If you win you get two coins. That's all descretionary trading is about - except you can also cover the coin after flipping and not play which in trading is to get out of the trade before loosing the coin or you can win more coins by trailing stops.

 

I can't imagine how after learning all about chart patterns , trendlines, support and resistance, breath indicators and internals and momentum, price action and indicators, market profile and price volume ladder, etc whatever- why we still can't enter a trade with a better than 50% chance win or no better than a coin toss.

 

Although thinking about trading in terms of probabilities can be extremely helpful, I also feel that it can at times be misleading.

 

To make your coin flip analogy more accurate you need to do two things:

 

1) Play with a £1 coin. Each time you play, regardless of the outcome, you must also put 10p into a pot. This is representative of commissions. How long does it take you to loose all your money?

 

2) Each time you play, you can then choose to go 'double or quits', except that to do so you must automatically put 50p in the pot, regardless of outcome. This is representative of paying the spread when you trade with a market order or a stop.

 

Hope that's helpful, and apologies if the UK currency confused the point - you can't toss a $1 bill!

 

BlueHorseshoe