Unconscious Vs Conscious Competence

[roztom 10]

I find that many traders have an intuitive element in their trading mind, but they don't know how to integrate the hunches into their decision making. In this left brain world we certainly are not taught. To the intuitive trader, this element of the mind, I call Creator. You learn to open yourself to the hunches and welcome their appearance -- and they are checked out by the clear thinking (hopefully) of your impartiality. I find this works well when developed. It's simply an attunement that is sharpened by a trained mind.

 

Rande Howell

 

That is the basis of the discussion. How to integrate it...without it creating conflict to the rule based/process side...

 

One of my issues is I have trained myself to be (hopefully) consciously competent. What happens is the unconscious intuitive side recognizes market behavior, especially at market turns but the conscious side will disregard the information - actually "forget it" and even moments later act from the conscious side within the rules to step in front of a changing trend...

 

What always amazes me when this happens is that I recognized it but even more important the "glimpse or flash" is gone when the conscious structure shows up moments or minutes later..

[FXGirl 10]

I’m coming in late to this discussion, but in reading back through some of the posts (not all), it’s been an interesting one.

 

I’ve worked in a number of fields before becoming a trader: police officer, knowledge engineer (interviewing experts and helping them elucidate their decision making process), and clinical psychologist. This is what I’ve learned about experts: the subconscious mind records everything, all the facts, results, experiences (including physiological states) and all emotions associated with them (emotions are a critical ingredient), and it layers or mixes these in with other experiences that came before and turns all this into an extremely sensitive pattern recognition system. And because the movements of the market are so complex and the emotions so intense, with trading it usually takes a long time – years - for the subconscious to gather enough data to develop the pattern recognition system sufficiently.

 

When the conscious mind is quiet, or looking the other direction, or when the pattern recognition system goes into red alert, the subconscious can get a message through to the conscious mind. It comes as a “knowing” (“I just knew”) or a feeling (“I just felt it was right”). Sometimes it has visceral component to it (“I felt it in my gut”).

 

Some people have a knack for listening to this voice; they come to trust it and they relax into a state that allows it to come forth. But the problem for most traders is that they have trouble separating the “knowing” from the other emotions of trading and this is where they get into trouble.

 

A number of years ago, we hooked up an expert day trader to biofeedback equipment so we could monitor his heart rate, breathing, GSR, etc. while he was trading. We expected to see rising levels of stress as he considered and took trades. Instead we found that his biomarkers dropped into what is more closely associated with a meditative state. Now, that was just one trader, but it made me wonder if what I was seeing was his way of letting the subconscious speak.

[karoshiman 10]

 

...

 

Some people have a knack for listening to this voice; they come to trust it and they relax into a state that allows it to come forth. But the problem for most traders is that they have trouble separating the “knowing” from the other emotions of trading and this is where they get into trouble.

 

A number of years ago, we hooked up an expert day trader to biofeedback equipment so we could monitor his heart rate, breathing, GSR, etc. while he was trading. We expected to see rising levels of stress as he considered and took trades. Instead we found that his biomarkers dropped into what is more closely associated with a meditative state. Now, that was just one trader, but it made me wonder if what I was seeing was his way of letting the subconscious speak.

 

Great post! Thank you for that.

 

This might explain also the misunderstandings we had at the beginning of this conversation.

 

Anyway, regarding this expert day trader which you have monitored, can you say whether he had actually meditation training before? I'm asking because I've heard it now several times that mediation might help traders in their task. Someone with mediation experience might get easier into this meditative state than someone without such experience. Or is it just like a skill someone has or doesn't have? Of course, meditation might help also someone who has this skill already...

[roztom 10]

I’m coming in late to this discussion, but in reading back through some of the posts (not all), it’s been an interesting one.

 

A number of years ago, we hooked up an expert day trader to biofeedback equipment so we could monitor his heart rate, breathing, GSR, etc. while he was trading. We expected to see rising levels of stress as he considered and took trades. Instead we found that his biomarkers dropped into what is more closely associated with a meditative state. Now, that was just one trader, but it made me wonder if what I was seeing was his way of letting the subconscious speak.

 

Very interesting post, thanks..

 

If you recall, to what extent was this the operative part of this traders process?.. Was it quantified in any way?

 

Did it only present itself at extreme moments or was it integrated into a consistent process?

 

I think for some, these intuitive flashes are not necessarily quantifiable without creating randomness..

 

I suspect though that those of us who have been at this for some time have this awareness, as you referenced, lurking at various levels within us.

 

If we could capitalize on the potential to leverage these integrated experiences.. then we could potentially substantially increase our P/L's.

 

Question is: To recognize, harness it and convert it to yield...

 

We would welcome suggestions: As you wrote../

 

How can we harness it and also potentially integrate it into our "conscious" skill set.

 

Tx

Edited March 27, 2012 by roztom

[FXGirl 10]

Karoshiman: No, this trader didn’t have meditation training, but he was a youth minister in years past and had a daily practice of prayer. I think this may have been the basis for his ability to calm his physiology. Also interesting was that he was an artist in his spare time and did beautiful, detailed paintings. When he was painting, he allowed his creative side to express itself (subconscious mind?). He trusted that it was there and would make itself known.

 

I think that a calm, quiet physiology can be a great asset in letting the subconscious speak. The body can learn to move into that state through the practice of any of a number of meditative techniques (TM, Zen, mindfulness, mantra, etc.), controlled diaphragmatic breathing, biofeedback, and so on. A quick look in the Apps section of the iTunes store (or Android store) will show you a number of apps for breathing, relaxation, meditation or biofeedback. The trick is consistent, daily, practice so the body learns and goes into that state automatically in response to a given trigger, such as starting to breath deeply. And, of course, good food, as in good-for-you food, sound sleep, and vigorous exercise all support a calm physiology.

 

Roztom: I don’t think that this trader set out to put himself in that state consciously. I think he had just developed that association over the years and found it worked for him. This became his consistent, natural state when trading. Of course, if he hadn’t spent years at the charts, his subconscious wouldn’t have had the data for understanding the market.

 

However, this is a complex subject and a calm physiology is only one possible avenue to letting the intuitive voice express itself. In athletes, we don’t see a calm physiology. What we see is a state of mind, “flow”, and the body as the tool the subconscious uses to express itself.

 

There are probably lots of ways to allow that intuitive voice to express itself, but one thing that always gets in the way is a negative emotional state. If your conscious mind is preoccupied with emotional drama and internal chatter, it’s tough to hear your subconscious. A very nice side effect of a calm physiology is a less intense emotional pull by the conscious mind, but it isn’t usually sufficient to silence the drama. There are lots of things you can do about your emotions (pretending they aren’t there is not an option if you want to be a good trader), but that’s probably for another thread.

 

It would be interesting to hear what avenues or experiences, other than trading, have allowed the intuitive voice to express itself. Perhaps we could learn from some of these.

[SpearPointTrader 10]

for me, simply learning to not care made a huge difference.

 

Sometimes, I still do stupid things though. Yesterday in Hogs, I had an 'Almost' set up. There was one detail that told me not to enter the trade. However, I had seen that warning fail plenty of times before, so I jumped in. The market started to go my way, which reinforced my thought that the warning would fail...then it turned on me.

 

Now, it had already been going my way, and it was clear I made a mistake early enough. I got out with a $20.00 loss. The market continued up and was still moving the wrong way all day today.

 

The thing is, I knew I made a gamble. So at the first sign it wasn't going to pay off I just exited before I had a real loss.

 

My first mistake was making the trade in the first place. However, my lack of attachment to it allowed me to just exit and not really care that I just lost. I could have listened to my gut, and got out with a +20, just as easily. I waited a bit, and suffered the loss. However I didn't wait too long, so I kept it really small.

 

The thing is, is it really does not matter what i did (other than the fact I should not have traded it in the first place). What mattered is that i was detached from the situation, and living only in the moment, like how a surfer rides the waves.

 

To be good at this stuff, you don't need to get to know your 'Self' better. You need to detach from self, ignore it, as well as detach the emotion from the market, and just live in the moment like a surfer does when he rides a wave.

[zardoz 10]

If you want to know how your Brain can mess you up there is a good book called Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman (Nobel Prize winner in economics).

 

The book Trading Chaos also tries to address this issue.

 

I did not read all the other posts so if I repeating stuff I apologize.

 

The System2 brain (conscious) does not work well under stress and when under stress the System1 brain (unconscious) influences it. So maybe your system one got you in the trade, but once in and you see your profit dwindling your subconscious alters it beliefs as now it has all these others factors affecting it (fear, greed, what the wife will say...) and starts to encourage bad trading habits. You are under time pressure to make a decision and system 1 ideas leak into your system 2 mind and you make a bad decision even though you had some rational reason for your decision.

 

For me it comes down to this. The more subjective your trading strategy is the more difficult it is to trade it correctly once in a trade. The very fact that you are in a trade changes your subjective perspective and can cause doubt.

[karoshiman 10]

 

... Also interesting was that he was an artist in his spare time and did beautiful, detailed paintings. When he was painting, he allowed his creative side to express itself (subconscious mind?). He trusted that it was there and would make itself known.

 

...

 

 

 

That's interesting. I've took 2 art classes last year and loved it. I was able to get totally absorbed in the tasks and have a fresh mind afterwards. Then I stopped it due to a move and my efforts in developing trading methods which suit my personality. Having done the latter, I guess I will start again with painting...

 

Thanks again!

[DeniseKShull 10]

The very latest in our understanding of perception and judgment (particularly under uncertainty) goes beyond Daniel Kahneman's metaphorical system 1 and sys 2. First there is "core affect" (or how we feel both physically and emotionally) and then there is the "gist" of the matter (Valerie Reyna, Cornell, 1990-2012 research).

 

The hottest topics in neuroeconomics are mind/body cognition which in effect means thinking not only with our intellects but sorting out our senses, sense of something (like gist), emotion about it (which provides the meaning) and then what choice we want to make.

 

The biggest two problems are:

1) When the brain senses uncertainty, which is always there in the markets, it automatically moves to look at the context and compels you to make a judgment call. 2)This is what derails you after you are in a trade - we were never taught to know what to do with the information our whole body and brain are delivering.

 

The comparison of conscious vs. unconscious competence came however more out of things like riding a bicycle. At first you had to pay all of your attention. Today you are unconsciously competent.

 

This can come in trading but not through the angles we typically try - due to the overemphasis on intellect and analytics. For example, research shows that complex decisions are best made non-deliberately. This means that when we want to decide how to get out of a trade we should get away from the screen and let what unconscious competence we have, come to our mind's forefront.

 

All of this starts with realizing that trading is a much more physical endeavor (as is perception and thinking) than we normally realize. Treating our trading process as an athletic contest can also help our unconscious pattern recognition come to the surface in a way that we can depend on it.

 

I could go on... but that is enough for my first post in years .

 

Denise

[roztom 10]

The very latest in our understanding of perception and judgment (particularly under uncertainty) goes beyond Daniel Kahneman's metaphorical system 1 and sys 2. First there is "core affect" (or how we feel both physically and emotionally) and then there is the "gist" of the matter (Valerie Reyna, Cornell, 1990-2012 research).

 

The hottest topics in neuroeconomics are mind/body cognition which in effect means thinking not only with our intellects but sorting out our senses, sense of something (like gist), emotion about it (which provides the meaning) and then what choice we want to make.

 

The biggest two problems are:

1) When the brain senses uncertainty, which is always there in the markets, it automatically moves to look at the context and compels you to make a judgment call. 2)This is what derails you after you are in a trade - we were never taught to know what to do with the information our whole body and brain are delivering.

 

The comparison of conscious vs. unconscious competence came however more out of things like riding a bicycle. At first you had to pay all of your attention. Today you are unconsciously competent.

 

This can come in trading but not through the angles we typically try - due to the overemphasis on intellect and analytics. For example, research shows that complex decisions are best made non-deliberately. This means that when we want to decide how to get out of a trade we should get away from the screen and let what unconscious competence we have, come to our mind's forefront.

 

All of this starts with realizing that trading is a much more physical endeavor (as is perception and thinking) than we normally realize. Treating our trading process as an athletic contest can also help our unconscious pattern recognition come to the surface in a way that we can depend on it.

 

I could go on... but that is enough for my first post in years .

 

Denise

 

Welcome to the discussion... based on your understanding is their a way to integrate this skill or is it just too random and unstable an occurance to help yield?

 

Does "conscious competence" ie. process & discipline always trump the "unconscious competent?"

 

Is the "conscious competence" where the highest consistent yield can be obtained?

 

Is it realistic to try to integrate the two or are they somewhat conflicting forces to sucessful trading in your opinion?

 

Since you are a professional in this area of trading performance your contribution is most welcome and appreciated.

Edited March 27, 2012 by roztom

[DeniseKShull 10]

The brain and psychological research would say that a blend of conscious and unconscious competence is what you want. You can also use your conscious to to help your unconscious - ie sleep, breaks, tracking the feeling of sensing when you see a pattern develop as well as other feelings and emotions.

 

With trading, I am not so sure this is the right way to parse it though.

 

Relentless uncertainty causes your brain, thinking and feeling to react in a different way than something more precise. I think that working with the reality that you can never know for sure - all you can do is sense patterns. And, the fact that you will perceive patterns BEFORE your conscious tells you, is the place you want to shoot for.

 

In other words, your objective should be to know the difference between an intuitive feeling and an impulsive one. You can consciously work on this. In doing so, you add a layer of knowledge that you can learn to integrate into a process.

 

I don't mean to be vague - but it is a case of rethinking what it really means to think. We do half of that (not precisely, I say half to make a point) with our bodies. We haven't been taught however to use that in school and in fact have been taught the opposite.

[laurus12 10]

Hello Tom.

 

From what you shared in your first post there are three things that comes to my mind. Those are: Lack of preparing your trading day psychologically, hope and mindfulness.

 

The reason for thinking lack of preparation is that when we go into trading there is the danger of preconceptions which then can lead to hope. When saying hope I am thinking of hope of earning back losses and missed out opportunities, plus the general hope that our dreams will be fulfilled.

 

The psychological mechanism in this is that if you have preconceptions about what the market is going to do and then going into hope when opening your trade. It's game over. Period. The reason for this is that your ego attaches to that preconceived picture and no matter which side you are emotionally, greed-side or fear-side, you will not be able to see what the market does. You might be totally out. That's how ego perceptions work. It's a mechanism and unfortunately most of us are doing it all day in everyday life. When I say greed I am thinking of the more innocent common version where you have 80 ticks in profit and was hoping of 120 where price goes back and take you out in break even. Or if it is strong enough even take you out in a loss. Remember that in everyday life hope is a strong positive life force needed to go forward, but in trading it is a "Deadly" force. It does not matter how much we hope. The markets are just going to do what they are going to do. In Zen there is a saying: "If you want to see the truth, do not have any preconceptions".

 

If I understand you right, I would recommend you making a contract with yourself where you every trading day go through a check list before you start your analysis. Like, "No preconceptions - I am going to follow what the market does no matter what", and so on. When you are able to do this you will also get a stronger sense of how well you have done your homework regarding your system.

 

As Denise Shull goes into: "complex decisions are best made non-deliberately". This also means that your right brain works much faster than your left brain. And recent scientific research done by Institute of HeartMath has shown that the heart as a sensory organ reacts before the brain when it comes to external input. Which is also very interesting historically speaking. The Samurais where practicing Zen at the same time as they where practicing with their swords. And they practiced so much that it became automaticly and totally perfect. Then the step into mastery was to let go of everything they had practiced on, trust and literally let their hearts completely guide them in their actions. This made them have seemingly inhuman quick responses when they were attacked. All this can also be applied to trading.

 

My last recommendation would be that you learn about mindfulness. Mindfulness is a form of meditation that will train you to detach and make you more attentive to what the market really does. Van Tharp writes about it from page 50 to 60 in his SuperTrader book, and a place I would highly recommend you to learn how to do this is with Dr. Gary Dayton at Trading Psychology Edge. He is both a Wyckoff expert and psychologist, and a very good teacher.

 

So I would suggest: Practice like the dickens with your system, make a contract with yourself where you follow a check list before you start trading to avoid psychological pitfalls, and then use mindfulness to be able to handle what is necessary as best as possible.

 

I might be off target with some stuff here, but hopefully it was still meaningful and made sense to you

 

 

Best wishes,

Laurus

Edited March 28, 2012 by laurus12

[JohnBly 10]

Very interesting thread.

 

In my own experience, I have noticed 3 dimensions that have to be taken into account:

1) The logical planner

2) Emotions

3) Intuition

 

Generally, the Logical Planner is in charge, executing the trade plan.

 

Emotions of all kinds come and go and I try to just leave them be without going with them or pushing them away.

 

And every now and then Intuition appears, always unexpectedly.

There is always a suddeness to it and a clarity. Surprise even.

I simply know what is going to happen next and there is a sense of certainty about it.

 

When that happens whilst working the indraday timeframe the best approach I have found is to simply grab the mouse and take the trade immeadiately, without deliberating on it for a moment. Acknowledge the gnosis and just take the trade.

 

It's like you are boxing and suddenly your right hand rises to cover your head, and it's only in the next moment you realize there was a punch on it's way. Any delay would have killed the intuitive brilliance.

 

So I suggest giving yourself self permission to do this kind of thing in one's overall trade plan. Track the results and assess.

 

The challenge is to sift out hope and fear from genuine intuition and that is a work very much in process.

[FXGirl 10]

Very interesting thread.

 

In my own experience, I have noticed 3 dimensions that have to be taken into account:

1) The logical planner

2) Emotions

3) Intuition

 

Generally, the Logical Planner is in charge, executing the trade plan.

 

Emotions of all kinds come and go and I try to just leave them be without going with them or pushing them away.

 

And every now and then Intuition appears, always unexpectedly.

There is always a suddeness to it and a clarity. Surprise even.

I simply know what is going to happen next and there is a sense of certainty about it.

 

When that happens whilst working the indraday timeframe the best approach I have found is to simply grab the mouse and take the trade immeadiately, without deliberating on it for a moment. Acknowledge the gnosis and just take the trade.

 

It's like you are boxing and suddenly your right hand rises to cover your head, and it's only in the next moment you realize there was a punch on it's way. Any delay would have killed the intuitive brilliance.

 

So I suggest giving yourself self permission to do this kind of thing in one's overall trade plan. Track the results and assess.

 

The challenge is to sift out hope and fear from genuine intuition and that is a work very much in process.

 

John: Very well put, very well indeed!

[MightyMouse 12]

Intuition's cousin is instinct.

 

I do not believe that humans have instincts, but we do have the ability to reason. Without instinct is intuition even possible?

 

On the other hand, when I meet a gorgeous woman, instinctively I am overcome by the desire to reproduce; I sense it is quite natural and survival of the fittest, in the end, is really just a numbers game. But, intuitively, I know it is better to not act since my wife will instinctively take everything I have. So, am I cutting my losses short by using reason or intuition? Or is it my wife's instinct to prevent my genes from surviving?

[SIUYA 11]

Intuition's cousin is instinct.

 

I do not believe that humans have instincts, but we do have the ability to reason. Without instinct is intuition even possible?

 

On the other hand, when I meet a gorgeous woman, instinctively I am overcome by the desire to reproduce; I sense it is quite natural and survival of the fittest, in the end, is really just a numbers game. But, intuitively, I know it is better to not act since my wife will instinctively take everything I have. So, am I cutting my losses short by using reason or intuition? Or is it my wife's instinct to prevent my genes from surviving?

 

dont you just mean thank god we have the ability to reason despite our instincts

[laurus12 10]

Very interesting thread.

 

In my own experience, I have noticed 3 dimensions that have to be taken into account:

1) The logical planner

2) Emotions

3) Intuition

...............(and so on)

 

Good layout and summary John.

 

Curtis Faith is also talking about this in his book "Trading from Your Gut", though from what I know today I believe "from the the heart" would be more appropriate. As I mention in my previous post, Curtis Faith also emphasize the necessity of hard practice before it goes over into the right brain hemisphere and becomes part of intuition.

 

I would also like to mention that scientific research has found that the heart has similar nerve cells as the brain and, to kind of refrase, that the heart is the dominant over the brain. Not the opposite which we have been taught. It's just that we have been too caught up in left brain "reason" to be able to notice it. For those interested you can download "Science of the heart" from Institute of HeartMath. There is also the documentary "The Living Matrix" where Institute of HeartMath is one of the participants when it comes to scientific research on the heart. Very good documentary I think.

Edited March 28, 2012 by laurus12

[roztom 10]

Very interesting thread.

 

In my own experience, I have noticed 3 dimensions that have to be taken into account:

1) The logical planner

2) Emotions

3) Intuition

 

Generally, the Logical Planner is in charge, executing the trade plan.

 

Emotions of all kinds come and go and I try to just leave them be without going with them or pushing them away.

 

And every now and then Intuition appears, always unexpectedly.

There is always a suddeness to it and a clarity. Surprise even.

I simply know what is going to happen next and there is a sense of certainty about it.

 

When that happens whilst working the indraday timeframe the best approach I have found is to simply grab the mouse and take the trade immeadiately, without deliberating on it for a moment. Acknowledge the gnosis and just take the trade.

 

It's like you are boxing and suddenly your right hand rises to cover your head, and it's only in the next moment you realize there was a punch on it's way. Any delay would have killed the intuitive brilliance.

 

So I suggest giving yourself self permission to do this kind of thing in one's overall trade plan. Track the results and assess.

 

The challenge is to sift out hope and fear from genuine intuition and that is a work very much in process.

 

John I concur with FXGirl & Laurus12, this is a very good summary and also articulates the pitfalls of discerning between the emotions and the flashes of insight...

 

Have you come up with any Stat's (and I understand this is specific to you not a generic answer to the question) that support a consistent pattern of higher performance?

 

Is it possible to recognize this "unconscious competence" and seperate from "fear & greed?" Is there a different signiture or a way it can be recognized or do they both "look" the same?

 

I'm curious if you or anyone else has had any opportunity to evaluate this or sort it out..

 

Tx for your contribution..

[Rande Howell 10]

That is the basis of the discussion. How to integrate it...without it creating conflict to the rule based/process side...

 

One of my issues is I have trained myself to be (hopefully) consciously competent. What happens is the unconscious intuitive side recognizes market behavior, especially at market turns but the conscious side will disregard the information - actually "forget it" and even moments later act from the conscious side within the rules to step in front of a changing trend...

 

What always amazes me when this happens is that I recognized it but even more important the "glimpse or flash" is gone when the conscious structure shows up moments or minutes later..

 

Recently I was watching an interview with a creativity researcher, and what he said both rang true and parts of it surprised me. First, he said that creativity doesn't happen often in groups -- brainstorming. Most intuition happens when relaxed and away from the drama. Ideas bubble in. He also said that creativity also happens when the brain is on its speed. Apparenty the intensity really takes the idea to the next level. He gave examples of writers having an idea show up and them intensely work on it. Certainly that happens to me.

 

In my my work, I see the mind as a trading committee and that committee is composed of various elements of the self. Rarely does a trader come equipped off the self to integrate his intuition into his awareness and his trading plan. What I keep finding in working with clients is that the intuition was there, but not well developed.

 

First relaxation is needed, or you can't listen to the "gut". Then I train for a trader to produce a memory of when intuition actually showed up. The key is to manage the feeling element of the emotion. It is the part of the emotion that takes over mind. Discipline, courage, patience, and impartiality have to be first developed as real skills in the trader's mind. Then the mind can be opened to the "gut". Takes work, bkut its the thing that seems to take the trader to the next level in the design of the mindset that you bring to your trading.

 

Rande

[DeniseKShull 10]

John - Such a great description of how it happens.

 

And you are so right about leaving room in your trading plan for this. I think that is where so many teachings send us astray - telling us for it all to be planned when in fact that is a literal impossibility.

 

Ditto on "I couldn't have said it better myself"!

 

Denise

[JohnBly 10]

John I concur with FXGirl & Laurus12, this is a very good summary and also articulates the pitfalls of discerning between the emotions and the flashes of insight...

 

Have you come up with any Stat's (and I understand this is specific to you not a generic answer to the question) that support a consistent pattern of higher performance?

 

Is it possible to recognize this "unconscious competence" and seperate from "fear & greed?" Is there a different signiture or a way it can be recognized or do they both "look" the same?

 

I'm curious if you or anyone else has had any opportunity to evaluate this or sort it out..

 

Tx for your contribution..

 

Thanks for all the replies and I am glad to find other traders who are so interested in this topic. One of my core beliefs about trading is that intuition is the ultimate edge, but only once everything else is in place (ei logical trading plan, discipline, money management etc).

 

As you touch upon, one the key skills that must be developed is discerning genuine gnosis from emotional noise, ei greed, fear, revenge. I have found that real intuition is not colored by any of these emotions. Rather there is the quality of clarity and a kind of spaciousness to them. And as I mentioned before, they usually occur "out of the blue". I am unable to force them. It's more a matter of making room in the mind for intuition to "get through". But honestly I find they arise unexpectedly, for me anyway. Others may have different experience.

 

As far as tracking them, when an intuitive flash gets thru with the above mentioned qualities they are almost always correct. I may not trade them as well as I should, but that is another matter. It's just a matter a of keeping a log of these kinds of trades and seeing over time how you are doing.

 

First step is acknowledging that intuitions can occur in the trading context and creating space in the mind for them appear. If there is no openess to possibility of intuition entering into one's trading then it probably won't as the faculty is in effect shut out.

[roztom 10]

Thanks for all the replies and I am glad to find other traders who are so interested in this topic. One of my core beliefs about trading is that intuition is the ultimate edge, but only once everything else is in place (ei logical trading plan, discipline, money management etc).

 

As you touch upon, one the key skills that must be developed is discerning genuine gnosis from emotional noise, ei greed, fear, revenge. I have found that real intuition is not colored by any of these emotions. Rather there is the quality of clarity and a kind of spaciousness to them. And as I mentioned before, they usually occur "out of the blue". I am unable to force them. It's more a matter of making room in the mind for intuition to "get through". But honestly I find they arise unexpectedly, for me anyway. Others may have different experience.

 

As far as tracking them, when an intuitive flash gets thru with the above mentioned qualities they are almost always correct. I may not trade them as well as I should, but that is another matter. It's just a matter a of keeping a log of these kinds of trades and seeing over time how you are doing.

 

First step is acknowledging that intuitions can occur in the trading context and creating space in the mind for them appear. If there is no openess to possibility of intuition entering into one's trading then it probably won't as the faculty is in effect shut out.

 

Thanks for sharing..Is there any material out there, other than "Trading In The Zone" or some other books on Sports analogies that specifically addresses this area that is able to be used by mere mortals without specific training in this area that you or any others reading this are aware of... ? Tx

[laurus12 10]

Thanks for all the replies and I am glad to find other traders who are so interested in this topic. One of my core beliefs about trading is that intuition is the ultimate edge, but only once everything else is in place (ei logical trading plan, discipline, money management etc).

 

.....

 

I agree what you wrote, but I also think that trading plan, discipline and money management will come on the intuitive side when one have been through them enough times. Like you just do it out of habit without thought.

 

Your experience with intuition is the same as mine and thanks for framing it the way you do. Practicing Mindfulness is a way to enhance this "space". In his "Super Trader" book Van Tharp talks about a woman in a Mindfulness course that enhanced her trading performance to 95% accuracy after doing this. She had off course a well defined trading methodology in advance. Inspirational I think.

 

Laurus

[laurus12 10]

Thanks for sharing..Is there any material out there, other than "Trading In The Zone" or some other books on Sports analogies that specifically addresses this area that is able to be used by mere mortals without specific training in this area that you or any others reading this are aware of... ? Tx

 

As I mentioned in my first post Tom, I would definitely recommend you taking a look at what Dr. Gary Dayton has to offer. You find it here. On the page he writes about what Mindfulness is and how it relates to trading. At the bottom of the page you can start with a free mindful skill builder. I have taken three of Dr. Garys courses and I can honestly say that he is the real deal. A very good teacher. No hype.

 

Laurus

[roztom 10]

As I mentioned in my first post Tom, I would definitely recommend you taking a look at what Dr. Gary Dayton has to offer. You find it here. On the page he writes about what Mindfulness is and how it relates to trading. At the bottom of the page you can start with a free mindful skill builder. I have taken three of Dr. Garys courses and I can honestly say that he is the real deal. A very good teacher. No hype.

 

Laurus

 

Thanks for the info..I'm sure you are aware that we must be careful not to promote any commercial services/Vendors. Being mindful of that, I did ask and you were kind enough to respond. Thank You.