Unconscious Vs Conscious Competence

[roztom 10]

Yes good way to think about it.

I use a "general setup", a "strict entry" and a "general exit"

 

I like the strict formality for actual entry, as I don't have to think about it when it's time to pull the trigger.

My entry area and stop are defined once I have the green light of the setup in place, so easy to execute.

 

The exit is "general" as a strong market will lead me to keep position on longer than a weaker market would, so I need the flexibilty to adjust to actual market conditions

 

I prefer the more structured entry...The structure causes me to wait for it along with the key level for activity... Often the market will give head fakes and get you in on a Zig and then Zag putting you (me) at a disadvantaged trade location..To me getting good trade location is key since it frees everything else up to flow.. I still use structured pre-planned targets but for some reason The market doesn't always see it the same way... :doh: This can cause consternation for me since over the course of rotations my Mind says time to bail, etc... but that can be fear of loss...

 

Can't really make a judgement on it... Seems sometimes that "if you know you don't know" then put it in the hands of the market to prove you right or wrong...

 

I'd prefer to have some kind of mindful insight but it may just open the door for randomness as we've discussed.

 

However, I AM going to see if I can get to a more peaceful place while trading and try to allow more creative insights in...

 

Great discussion.

[JohnBly 10]

Yes, and maybe it is a little bit different for each of us.

 

Talking for myself, when I have these intuitive moments, there is no self-talk involved. But I do have these self-talks as well... but they are not linked to my personal "moments of brilliance"

 

Agreed.

If there is much internal dialogue going on, I find it's better to just stick with the rules.

Intuition may be at work, but pretty tough (for me) to sift it out from the self-talk or emotions.

 

As Clint Eastwood said in Dirty Harry...."A man has got to know his limitations".

 

If the chatter/emotions have subsided, I find that makes room for genuine intuition to get through and correctly identify.

[zdo 20]

Preface: These are HARD CORE comments for those who may be drawn to it ‘as a way’ … ie this post is for you the one freak outlier ‘out there’. You normals out there, please just ignore and keep on gettin’ up - great thread.

Note: this post is a little or a lot off topic. As far as I can tell the OP still prefers to maintain the separation between the ‘two competencies / minds’ and most of the other posts are targeted at either how to “keep intuition on call” or whether to trust the most present occurrence of an ‘intuition’ or not. This post does NOT A THING to preserve that separation … hence in that way it = off topic

Also, in no way does this post devalue the practices (mindfulness, zen bud, meditation, relaxation response, entrainment, yada yada, etc, etc, etc.) themselves or diminish anything said about the ‘mind works’ either…

 

btw Welcome back, Denise. We wondered why you leave http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-psychology/7422-what-psychologists.html#post86919

If you have time please briefly tell us why over there Thanks.

 

 

 

“Flow starts in the first body.” zdo . This means although flow can be accomplished ‘mentally’ (ie it is possible for a parapalegic to sustain flow as long as s/he can clear bound flow) by [ extremely extremely] far, the most direct route to building a ground for flow is through focused, real time work in the first body. This does not mean you have to be in perfect health and fitness to flow. Real flow is not even bound to circumstance(s) at all. But it does mean if the first body is not clear, you will / may have ‘flashes’ of flow, but you have NO chance of living in flow.

 

“Flow is your natural state… your birthright…” Scott Sonnen. It is nothing special really.

“Flow

One is either in Flow or in bound-flow

While there are gradients to bound flow

The transition between flow and bound-flow is a discrete quanta” http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-psychology/7576-flow-thyself.html#post93128

 

Bound Flow develops from … sorry dude, I don’t really care anymore. The practical and generally accepted theories go along the lines of: …bound flow comes from reactions / systemic adaptations to ‘trauma’ / ‘insults’ /.'distress' to the system that, if not cleared within 6 hours, are stored/remembered in the multiple locations ‘out’ in the physical body… that are also associated with particular and general brain memories… and are also chained to the emotional component of the memory yada yada.;. Mix in some stuff from the various, parallel energetic and eastern and western ‘alchemical’ models, yada yada.

The term fear-reactivity is synonymous with bound flow… but that term inevitably opens up a trail back to all the various ‘fix your fears and maladaptive emotional reactions with thoughts’ models Development of bound flow / reactions to ‘trauma’ are very ‘individualized’ – ie holding everything else the same, two different people would develop completely different bindings from the same experience… and an individual could develop completely different bindings from the same experience holding everything else the same except for example time of day, etc. Again, I don’t really care anymore about the ‘causes’ …hey, a perfect excuse for a whole bunch of you to get off this bus…

 

Clearing bound flow in the first body: Simply – mindfully find and fully exhale into all your bindings. “One” at a time – until they are all gone. I put quotes around “One” because they actually always come as a connected group… but that only becomes obvious after you start getting into the subtleties of the work. Use the breath to ‘relax’ into challenging physical positions. The work is simple, but difficult. Done properly, the rate of perceived effort and discomfort is quite high. NO pain! (but) EXTREME discomfort. We started with a full bus. We’re down to about 80% off the bus now.

How do you know when you have cleared your bindings? You’ll be in flow. ie you never do ‘try’ to get into flow. The doing you do is to clear the bound flow…

(If you need some suggestions for ‘beginners’, contact me privately. I’ve already _____ this thread enough…)

 

Finally, this way includes the ‘being’ and ‘loving’ and ‘doing’ and ‘having’ that does not form bindings from new, real time experiences … or re-form in recently cleared ‘places and spaces’ (ie hologram themselves back into existence). One way of describing it is - an in the present, ‘deliberative practice’ - not just in the strife and vicissitudes of trading, but of life itself. And from the ground of ‘non flash’ flow, all the methods and specialties (that the masters and practitioners herein and elsewhere are imo erroneously putting first and prime* ) take on whole new meanings and relevance. … mindfulness, for example - Mindfulness that emerges from within flow is ‘more better’ than mindfulness that is trying to get into flow, etc, etc. etc. …this is an off - topic post... only one guy left on the bus…time to hit the switch …

[JohnBly 10]

the synchronous, uniform lower frequency (alpha) generated across the whole brain by open styles of attention is the equivalent of the same group of students singing together.

 

Bursts of phase-synchronous alpha occur during optimal performance – being in the “flow”. Athletes say they have unusual perceptual experiences during these times; they often perceive high-speed action in slow motion, and some see spontaneously shifting foreground and background. In phase-synchronous alpha states, people tend to perceive events as simultaneous, timeless, and all inclusive. Some report a “sixth sense” of where other players are and where they were going to be in the future. In chess or trading this can be experienced as subtle patterns become perceptible, seeming to jump out from the background – trader’s intuition.

 

 

Thanks great info FXGirl.

Les Fehmi's work is excellent.

 

He points out the key is to let awareness become spacious, rather than fixated and confined.

Once simple awareness becomes more open-ended rather than penned-in, then the deeper functions of the mind (intutition) can emerge.

[JohnBly 10]

DZO, how do you apply the "flow" practice specifically in the trading context?

[steve46 12]

The title of the thread is interesting. The relationship between concious and unconcious is (I think) fairly straightforward.

 

We either have natural talent and ability or we don't....if we do.....then we follow our internal instinctive mandates and we learn to the limit of our natural resources....at that point, if we feel it is necessary we can obtain further training

 

If we do not have natural talent or ability, it becomes a challenge to learn what does not "come to us naturally"....people who do this are called "overacheivers" however I see it differently...from my point of view this group has another important resource to call upon.....I call it "character"....generally if they want something...to obtain a skill, to reach any goal in the outside world, these folks actually look forward to overcoming obstacles, whether natural or put there by others. They exhibit "driven" behavior or what some might call "compulsive" behavior. They are persistent, organized, and willing to do "whatever it takes"....they are willing to put themselves "on the line"...to risk their self image in order to get to their goals...I know this type of person well, (I am one of them) and I do not stop, I do not give up, I give it everything I have until I get to my goal.. period.

 

As to competence...it is concious competence that "comes" first to those who are not "naturally" talented, and that may even extend to those who are....it seems to me that we first have to make concious our skills, then through practice, we internalize our skill set, in much the same way that a young person learns to drive a car....for those who can remember back to that event...at first you cannot hold a conversation with someone while you drive....if you try to....when you come to an intersection, the conversation stops, because you have to conciously monitor all the data....is the light changing...are their pedestrians, or other cars in the road ahead of you....as time passes and you have more "repetitions", the skills you have learned conciously become "internalized" and are for the most part unconcious...once you get to that point, you can carry on a conversation, listent to the radio and sometimes you get to where you are going and don't even have a concious recollection of how you got there....now that you have "internalized" those skills, when you drive you are for the most part "on automatic pilot".

 

The bottom line is that we are biologically based "machines", controlled by sophisticated software.....once you understand how it works, you have choices available to you....you can simply use your "god given" skills, and be content with that, or you can obtain new skills, as long as you are willing to pay the price.....(within certain limits) its up to each individual...

 

Good luck folks

Steve

Edited March 29, 2012 by steve46

[TheNegotiator 13]

Initially I wanted to agree with your statement but when writing my answer I switched... I think it is almost the opposite. It is a fine line between too much information, v too much superfluous information v not being able to discern the relevant information from a lot of information.

You need to be able to quickly get the relevant signal out of the noise, and yet to do so you do need to look at the noise....you cannot eliminate it. More of it is ok, so long as we "detach" from it.

The experiment (and subsequent live time use) shows that the intuitive section of the brain can actually pick up the signals quick enough, without us registering the noise, and it is not a matter of filtering the noise as such it is a matter of filtering the recognition of the signal. So it seems rather than trying to eliminate the noise having a lot of it its not actually the problem it is the discernment of the signal whilst ignoring/not registering the noise.

One of the reasons people look at longer term charts and then drill down I guess they try to eliminate the noise, but this in itself might cause a problem as it gives conflicting results and causes more indecision. It seems to be that you are better looking at a lot of noise rather quickly and letting the intuition register a "now that looks interesting".

By eliminating the noise, you eliminate the texture/flavour/subtle context.....we underestimate the power of our brain. We should keep it and let intuition decide which patterns are the tastiest.

 

Floor traders are able to do exactly this - they register the relevant signals from the noise, and it is not a matter of eliminating it, and yes it seems screen traders to a certain extent are disadvantaged in that by eliminating noise we might be going the wrong way about it, by locking into the logical mind too much we miss the point........food for thought, (maybe that's why I seem to trade better when I have music on, I listen to that and its only when something piques my interest (my intuition) that I get excited, and yet other times something such as a TV becomes too distracting, and other times there is the need to focus and turn off all distractions.)

 

This is rather different to the original example from roztom but I guess it is something to think about

 

Siuya, I watched that documentary too I think. There's actually something more to take from the noise which I'm sure has been said elsewhere in trading before. There is no noise. This can be taken in several ways. For example, one trader's noise is an algo's bread and butter(or electricity and code? ). But specifically in the map example, the lie of the land would draw the focus more to points which have a better chance of having the structures they were looking for. Perhaps the "noise" is the "tempo" of the market. So maybe after you have watched the market for an amount of time in a session taking in all the noise and tempo, your subsconcious naturally "points" to a possible point of action where you are likely to be in a hightened state of alert.

 

I don't know, but it's an interesting thought nonetheless.

 

It's like being a crowded party with talking everywhere, yet one can hear the wife's voice clearly in the mix. Covering one's ears to block out some of the noise would not help.

 

The way this follows my point is when you are looking for your wife at the crowded party, you instinctually know that either she'll be in the middle of the crowd and center of attention, or she'll be at the sides chatting in a small group. The "noise" leads the recognition.

 

Is that flash of "I better abandon that trade now" based on fear of loss or genuine insight that a move is ending eventhough the target or insight you had about it's potential whether rule based or gut hasn't changed "consciously?" To be more concise, how do you recognize the difference?

 

I find that sometimes when my mind plays tricks on me like this, it is better to ignore everything and just focus on the execution if it does go tits up. The issue otherwise is that when these ideas appear, it's usually at a really intensely important point that needs my attention to execute properly not my logical brain trying to decode my subconscious thoughts. I know this isn't really the point of what you are trying to get at. On the otherhand, I do sometimes get that feeling and take myself based on it. However, this is only when my market logic fits in with it. So like that low that was made suggested that we had more upside, if I'd have been short and my gut told me "this is going up, get out" then I'd have to check it off against the low and the subsequent move higher before acting.

[zdo 20]

... how do you apply the "flow" practice specifically in the trading context?

 

Hopefully not that much differently from anyone else in flow. The self “trust” and ‘mistrust” issue is simply absent, etc Karoshiman said way early in the thread “Problem is: How To Listen?” That ‘problem is’ is simply not a problem, etc…

More operationally, my trading is centered in very granular MarketTyping. These MarketTypes are very transient and I need to be able to switch up systems and switch to that system’s best “dimension of attention” (see FXGirl’s post #100 just above) quite facilely. Also, trading some of the systems comes quite naturally, but others are quite challenging and require more energy to master and implement ( see Steve46’s post #106 ) ... 'needs' for flow...

 

...my post only departs from consensus neuroscience babble in one area. Our friends all up in neuroscience keep sourcing flow up in the headbrains. Again, see FXGirl’s excellent post just above for an example -“phase-synchronous alpha”. It’s all neuro this, brainwave that, lobe this, hemisphere that, etc etc etc… Many with a ‘neuro’ orientation would simply say I’m just suggesting training the brain to enter ‘state’ (frequency, meditative, whatever the current terms are) while in physical discomfort... on to the departure

I’m saying flow starts in the first body. If you are committed to flow, don’t entrain brainwaves or practice mindfulness. Go clear to the body of bound flow – and voila all the alpha’s and gamma’s and attentions, etc will be ‘sittin’ right there waitin’ on you’. An analogy: In my view they are continuing to research and tweak the motherboard performance in compensation - without paying any attention at all to a low, dirty, sporadic power supply.

 

Denise is really starting to get at it in http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-psychology/12508-unconscious-vs-conscious-competence-8.html#post144169 , but I’m still guessing she (and most of her research pals) are still not ready to get down with the practices I’m encouraging. My experience is that it goes far beyond simple neurology and I would bet if they went to the mat for a year they would change their tune too.

 

…and John thanks for all of your plain-speak posts herein

 

 

Gotta go – some of ya’ll would literally shit in your brains if you knew how much some of these posts ‘cost’ me…

 

and have a great weekend all.

[JohnBly 10]

research shows that complex decisions are best made non-deliberately.

 

Yes exactly. So true.

 

Reminds me of the Zen story about the time somebody asked a caterpillar how he managed to walk with 100 legs to co-ordinate. The caterpiller sat down to figure it out and became unable to move. The logical one-at-a time part of the mind could not handle the task of co-ordinating 100 legs.

 

So it gets down to the challenge of basically learning how to use the various functions of the mind, using the right faculties in the right places (right tool for the job).

 

I had a martial arts coach in college who talked about this. He said the instant the bout starts leave the thinker behind. Once a point is scored and you are walking back to the line to begin another bout, use that time (10 seconds or so) to think about and evaluate what just happened.

 

Once analysis is done, then drop mental activity and and leave it to the wholistic mind to act.

Don't analyze when it is time for action (ei enter or exit a trade) or we may end up like that caterpiller.

 

All very much a work in progress for me.

Edited March 30, 2012 by JohnBly

[FXGirl 10]

Hi, Zdo: I certainly support your idea that flow starts in the body – that’s been my experience on a number of occasions, as has meditation on others. But when we use brainwaves in neurofeedback as a measure of state, or breathing and GSR as indicators of relaxation in biofeedback, or variable heart rate and magnetic pulse to measure “coherence” as do the Heart Math people, we are looking at the process of flow through different lens – none of which allow us to see the full picture. I suspect that flow exists and is the integration of all levels of our being. We haven’t discovered all the dimensions of flow, let alone how to measure them, so we are stuck with seeing a fragmented picture.

[jaysmith124 10]

 

Somehow they need to co-exist but they often don't...

 

Any of you have this conflict and if so how have you successfully or unsuccessfully tried to manage it..?

 

Thanks for your time and consideration..this might require some "thought."

 

I've looked into my relationship with money and the meanings behind what it has done for my life. What it would mean to me if I would extract from the markets what I believe I can on a daily basis.

 

The purpose has been to uncover conflicts between the conscious and unconscious, and change core beliefs. First, I accept this conflict (and others that were recognized through questioning) by stating the truth that I really don't want to make money on a consistent basis even though I say I do, and what I say I can do is supported by simulated trading results, or if you can be backed up by a coach who you've instant messaged entry's and exits to verify what you say you can do, I think this would be even better.

 

The unconscious is always in control of your reactions and responses, so through mindfulness, I've committed to change unwanted core beliefs, which have become habits, and addictions, bringing the unconscious into harmony with the conscious. The changes have not come instantly, but I am moving forward. (Very close to breaking away from familiarity, comfort, and others expectations)

 

From early conditioning, beliefs about money are often connected to your self image and worth. How would it feel to have a daily income if what you say comes true? Is there an uneasiness? How would you feel? Why? And how would this serve your life purpose? What would change? etc, etc.

 

My financial self worth is one example I had to change. I have consciously believed that I can and will make at least $5,000 per day. But I was really not comfortable with that until I started telling myself while in a meditative state that I am worth $10,000 per day. After a while, I'll say about 21 days since this is a common number they say is needed before change takes hold, but it was within a month, I felt like a little cloud of darkness, an uneasiness I didn't know existed, had lifted freeing myself to grow. To expand my capabilities. I felt inspired being on track.

 

Another possible limiting thought for many that you may need to contemplate is taxes. Many don't think about starting their own business because of this thought. They are willing to pay more through wages automatically, but they don't have to face the responsibility thinking and writing a check themselves. In California this is what I will pay for earned income from the stock market. I used my payroll software, so a small amount for Disability and state unemployment. In relation to expenses, they are minimal compared to my goal. The positive in this is that I don't pay self employment tax.

 

I take responsibility to pay these taxes. I've broken down to a daily basis.

(trading 250 days per year)

 

When I win..., I pay...

$150 23%

$250 30%

$500 37%

$1000 42%

$2000 46%

$3000 48%

$5,000 50%

 

Now, for some, they never really broke it down and now that they see it they have subconsciously decided not to be successful. This is irrational! Some would rather be a martre than contribute to something they feel is unfair. And then some types are willing to do what it takes to design, discover, and achieve their potential. I see where I fit into society and both continually, and patiently, make the necessary changes.

 

Also, It's been a while, but the book, "Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking Malcolm Gladwell"(2005), gives examples of how we need very little information to make a decision, and how we need to trust this intuition.. (this book is not specific to trading)

 

"The chairman comes in a different form to everybody. You risked everything for Elise. and Elise you risked everything when you came through that door."

"Most people are conditioned to live their lives the way others want it. People who realize free will is a gift you'll never know how to use until you fight for it. I think that's the Chairman's real plan. That maybe, one day, we won't write the plan, you will." The Adjustment Bureau (2011)

Edited April 1, 2012 by jaysmith124

[laurus12 10]

Yes exactly. So true.

 

Reminds me of the Zen story about the time somebody asked a caterpillar how he managed to walk with 100 legs to co-ordinate. The caterpiller sat down to figure it out and became unable to move. The logical one-at-a time part of the mind could not handle the task of co-ordinating 100 legs.

 

So it gets down to the challenge of basically learning how to use the various functions of the mind, using the right faculties in the right places (right tool for the job).

 

I had a martial arts coach in college who talked about this. He said the instant the bout starts leave the thinker behind. Once a point is scored and you are walking back to the line to begin another bout, use that time (10 seconds or so) to think about and evaluate what just happened.

 

Once analysis is done, then drop mental activity and and leave it to the wholistic mind to act.

Don't analyze when it is time for action (ei enter or exit a trade) or we may end up like that caterpiller.

 

All very much a work in progress for me.

 

I would just like to add something of my own from where you ended John.

 

The mind's natural state is neutral and observing. Children up til around five years of age do this naturally. Ask a three or four year old what he or she is thinking, and you will get the answer "nothing". About fifteen years ago I asked this question and got the answer, but then I thought "hmm, but you must be thinking something". I did not understand or know, or had forgot is probably more like it, that children is naturally in neutral and just observing. Today I know that children around five years of age very unfortunately start to be taken over by grownups way of handling things and perceives reality. Meaning the later becoming overgrown ego is starting to take control.

 

One of the pitfalls with technicalities and theory in psychology I think, is when it becomes a technical way of trying to control something that is already control in nature. Meaning one will go in circles. Ego is trying to solve ego, or as if the thief is going to catch the thief himself. It does not work. The mind, or soul, or whatever one would like to call it, have its own way of healing or resolving things if one let it. Meaning not by "going in" with ego, but by letting ego taking a rest somewhere else so that the mind can let things fall into place. And step by step the ego will be resolved bit by bit. Note that I know about and do practical preparations to avoid ego stuff in my trading, but when it comes to resolving things permanently so one can really relax and observe without being afraid of a ghost lurking in the shadows, I refer to the above in this paragraph.

 

This is why I am a strong follower of just practically doing things when things shall be resolved. With trading on the practical side this would just be to practice on what one would like and need to do. And when one realize or understand the mechanism behind the psychology and have experienced the bad results, one find a practical way to resolve this and then forget about the theory. The mind does not need knowledge to resolve things. "We" do until we realize that the solution is to let go. As mentioned not by "going in to" fix things, but by doing something that will give your mind a chance resolve things by itself. When we do this, we start to get quicker, smarter, more creative and so on. The list is probably pretty long. When we are "slow" it is because of our attitude and perceptions, not that we factually are "slow".

 

Laurus

[laurus12 10]

I'm glad you liked my post Tom

 

I would like to thank you for starting this thread. Unexpectedly it has turned out to be an awakening process for myself. A kind of homecoming one could say.

 

Thanks,

Laurus

[roztom 10]

I'm glad you liked my post Tom

 

I would like to thank you for starting this thread. Unexpectedly it has turned out to be an awakening process for myself. A kind of homecoming one could say.

 

Thanks,

Laurus

 

Likewise Laurus..

 

I have learned more on this thread then from all the Trading Psych books I have read over the years combined. In fact, I am waiting for my book order to come in.. I am going to look into Zen from a non-trading angle and also read one of the other ones that is trading oriented... It is not like I expect radical insights but If I can find a way to calm myself so things can stay clear or I can better "declutter" my mind then that is a wothwhile outcome.

 

Over the years I have certainly struggled with the emotions and all the self-talk and impulse behaviors that trip us up along the way... I am enthusiastic to see if I can teach myself (referencing an old dog) some new tricks.

 

There are so many variables around one's state of mind when trading..We are not in consistent places psycologically on a day to day basis, IMHO. Everyday has it's own "drama." One thing relative to our dialogue here will be to see if it is truly possible to tap into the higher-level "awareness" on a consistent basis..

 

One question, assuming I (we) will never be Zen Trading Masters is to be able to recognize when we are getting those flashes of intuition or "unconscious competence" and then be confident to act upon them. Many times I open a chart and as soon as it comes up I know "exactly" what to do. No pondering, no thought, .. just grab the Mouse and click... in a flash... There is no time for conscious self-chatter or deliberation. It is a "go with" event..

 

Of course, the converse is when I am very "conscious," things are somewhat nebulous and then I "analyze" from different perspectives...

 

One thing I do recognize and I trust I'm not alone on this, is that there are times when my brain says "go long, no short, no long"... As soon as I have a conflict like that, I just stop and have the brillant insight to acknowledge that the market can go either way and may be at a decision point... In some ways my indecisiveness is a reflection of the markets indecisiveness. It just took me a while to figure out what that meant: "Stop, Look & Listen"...like at a railroad crossing so you don't get hit by a train.. :doh:

 

I hope we can continue to explore this area and expand our understanding of it. I believe there is "genius" trapped in those of us who have mastered the skills to become "consciously competent." While it will be forever a work in progress we also have captured skills that might be able to be called upon from a much higher integrated skill level. That "unconscious competent" if actually a recognizable, consistent experience might very well allow us to occasionally reach a much higher level of performance as well as calm... This is a VERY exciting possibility...

[jaysmith124 10]

When we are "slow" it is because of our attitude and perceptions, not that we factually are "slow".

 

Laurus

Theoretical is without meat until it is put into practical means by giving up, if not changing or adjusting, your current situation and environment for something better. Theoretical is a starting point to get back to our natural states. With stimulating objects, activities, and/or other people, it is natural for us to be happy all the time except when feeling physical discomfort. (Like a baby with a mobile, or swinging in a bouncer)

 

For me to be on top of trade opportunities it takes alert observation. I will call it work fighting against possible impulsiveness, and distractions. And fighting to maintain my free will to stay on a certain path of growth. I can't have a relaxed state of mind, or I'll let myself get distracted. To do my best I need to prepare physically and psychologically to maintain focus on my task of finding trade opportunities that will prove to be winners.

And then from another perspective, I am relaxed. Having "Let Go", and waiting for it to happen. Trading the markets has become my stimulation to natural states of being. This holds true for any talented activity one finds in life. A reason to do something we choose to do is because it brings us emotional consequences of a natural state. A calm assertiveness, and feeling good. When we do something that we are good at it we are expressing who we are. This expression enables us to reach a natural state of growth unique to us along with the ability to excel.

 

There is a balancing act going on between what I think is natural, and when to take control. One thing that I want to make natural so that it fits into the environment I've chosen to live in is getting up an hour earlier than I would naturally get up.

 

Laurus: I hope that everyone understands what you said about "Slow".

 

Thank you everyone for the contributions this stimulating thread.

[jaysmith124 10]

P.S. About getting in touch with your natural self.

 

Most of us build a persona to cope with the outside world. We are our ideal self when home in a more relaxed state. Recognize the difference and realize our outside persona is a survival state. Your natural state is your growth state. (creativity functions here)

I will ask myself, What state am I living in? What influences are contributing to my growth state and what influences contributing to my survival state?

 

Discovering new questions to ask myself, keeps me on a path of growth. I find that I need to journal at the time, and review my progress weekly, or time go will by making it easy to fall into a survival state.

 

If we are not pulling the trigger it is because we are in a survival state of mind. Equally, if we are not trusting our intuitive hunches, and taking action when we know it's time to take action, it is because we are in a survival state of mind. If we miss opportunities and wonder how we missed it, it is also because of our state.

 

While in a survival state our unconscious mind protects us from possible danger, pain, ridicule, and unwanted results. It does its job well. What part of your mind is in control?

[PrymeTyme 10]

Most Interresting Thread in Years ! Thank You

 

 

Well i can only speak for my own exprience , wether or not i was trading *in the zone*

or some sort of subconcious state .. or what ever u wanna call it..

 

but only when trading purely with the DOM alone. i mean u cant get any closer to the markets then via the DOM (electronicaly) ... and if u watch the DOM and its actions for a very long time.. and start to recognize what drives the market.. (i mean u need a basic understanding about supply/demand,Cause and Effect.. effort vs. result ,etc...)

 

and i dont mean patterns or something.. just the markets action... or price action if u will..

if u know where to look at .. and what to look out for... u will get closer to the `zone` each time.. till u trade in it! .. trust me it does happen...

 

like someone said... it is like driving a bike or car.. where u dont have to analyse all data etc.. and think about every move ...

 

but the markets arent black or white.. so its more like riding a bike with ever changing conditions.. like different concrete , be it dirt,mud,snow,ice.. up or downhill...

 

but if u drive these roads long enough .. you know instinctively how to react.. to each condition... as u have gained expereince over time..

 

 

and the thing about .. the emotions .. like , fear and hope... jut means u dont know what will happen next.. cause u dont know how to read the market actions and judge the market.. if u know how to read it.. u will know if you should get out of a position.. or adapt to the new condition... remember the ones that hope simply dont know! (what doesent mean i know where the market heads next ) but i know if the current action is still in favour of my position or at least supports it...

 

i mean anything can happen.. but u will notice when u should take a loss.. or even reverse a position.. if u observe the market and if the action is still in favour of your position.. etc.

 

and u can filter the `noise` from the important trades.. i mean if u see prints of 1 contract

and a print of 100 contract... what is more significant? . and what adds to a story?

 

sorry for my bad english.. hope u guys get .. anyhow

 

here is a nice quote ...

 

the surfing plan

 

The best explanation of a plan is "the surfer" who goes surfing. Goes down to the sea. Checks the weather conditions. Is the surf up?. Is the breeze on-shore or off-shore?. If the conditions are right, jumps on the board and paddles out 300 meters. And waits. Waits for the right wave. There are many waves. The key is to pick the right wave. Don't want to pick one too soon or too late. The choice of wave comes from seasoned experience. Not a surfing plan. A surfer does not go out surfing with a surfing plan in mind. The conditions of the moment on the day will dictate the play. Depending on the conditions, what was a good wave yesterday might well be a poor wave today.

[zdo 20]

Hi, Zdo: I certainly support your idea that flow starts in the body – that’s been my experience on a number of occasions, as has meditation on others. But when we use brainwaves in neurofeedback as a measure of state, or breathing and GSR as indicators of relaxation in biofeedback, or variable heart rate and magnetic pulse to measure “coherence” as do the Heart Math people, we are looking at the process of flow through different lens – none of which allow us to see the full picture. I suspect that flow exists and is the integration of all levels of our being. We haven’t discovered all the dimensions of flow, let alone how to measure them, so we are stuck with seeing a fragmented picture.

 

“I suspect that flow … is the integration of all levels of our being.” That’s as good a way of putting it as any … but I just do not care anymore about the ‘causes’, theories, ‘scientific’ quantification, etc. Seeing a picture, “seeing a fragmented picture”, “none of which allow us to see the full picture” - trying this, trying that; sticking with this construct, sticking with that construct…

… as if we must ‘understand’ a sufficient quantity of the “fragments” in order to enter the state… when actually all these ‘understandings’ may, in many cases, impede entering flow. For the vast majority, “discover[ing] all the dimensions of flow” would not ‘get them out of the way’ of flow at all…

 

Most posts will stay on topic - mind centered, even the plain speak ones and/or zen and/or mediation and/or measurement and/or … and/or … and/or whatever … My posts are : offftoppic: ie they are for those few who ‘need’ flow and are willing and able to pay the price for sustained flow. For them, my message is simple - clearing bound flow from the first body is the only way to sustain flow for LONG periods ... flow for every waking (and best I can tell, every sleeping ) moment for days, weeks, months. No matter how ‘good’ you get at the ‘techniques’ with mind, any uncleared mysofascial, etc. ‘bound flow’ in the first body will repeatedly interrupt one back below the threshold of flow. Without clearing bound flow in the first body, using the mind tools (both classic and modern) to train to know just when to go “non-deliberative”, etc, etc., becomes a discipline to have mind “attention” attempt to instigate regaining flow again with this or that practice, – over and over and over … too fatigue eventually… ie mind is an unreliable, even artificial ‘source’ of flow…

 

…and am not saying that ‘mind’ needs to be removed from the process… a specific ‘blend’ and alternation and succession of the attention types Dr. Fehmi so aptly identified is required during the far from mindless work of clearing bound flow in the first body... also, in my experience, plain awareness is ultimately the best (bio)feedback - especially in the ever changing ocean of peptides, neurotransmitters, hormones, etc…

[SIUYA 11]

 

ie they are for those few who ‘need’ flow and are willing and able to pay the price for sustained flow.

 

prunes and a good dose of fiber can often help. :haha:

 

(sorry zdo - could not help myself when a google inspired targeted add triggered some juvenile humor on my behalf == all when I was doing nothing but looking for a recipe....

as a side note I did a quick lesson pranayama on the weekend and the guy was talking a lot about various flows and bodies in a similar sense)

[FXGirl 10]

Dear zdo: You said, “My posts are : offtoppic: ie they are for those few who ‘need’ flow and are willing and able to pay the price for sustained flow.” I’m not sure I understand what you mean by paying the price for sustained flow. Perhaps you could clarify that for me. What is the price?

 

For me, flow has always been something that happens spontaneously when you relax into it. And by relax, I don’t necessarily mean you body has to be limp, but that it is almost like falling into it. Or if you are a Harry Potter fan, like Devil’s Snare, you just have quit struggling

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znV2J73TpZs]Harry Potter - Devils Snare - YouTube2trim.flv - YouTube[/ame]

 

I’ve experienced it surfing, when the wave, the board and I were one. I’ve experienced it as a cop when I suddenly knew I was in danger and exactly what to do to get out, every move lay out before me and my body moved through it smoothly and automatically. I’ve experienced it in deep meditation when my body was so still that it seemed to disappear entirely leaving nothing but perfect peace. I’ve experienced it as a therapist when I suddenly “got” a patient’s worldview and knew exactly what to say next. I’ve experienced it as a trader when I suddenly knew it was time to get in or time to get out – though I must say that doesn’t happen anywhere as often as I’d like.

 

You might argue that the price for flow was hours of being in the water as a surfer, or years as cop, or many, many years meditating, or years as a therapist, or as a trader. But I’ve never had the sense that I had to pay a price for flow. It was much more like getting out of the way and letting it take me over.

[PrymeTyme 10]

 

You might argue that the price for flow was hours of being in the water as a surfer, or years as cop, or many, many years meditating, or years as a therapist, or as a trader. But I’ve never had the sense that I had to pay a price for flow. It was much more like getting out of the way and letting it take me over.

 

 

hmmm , sounds like collective unconscious ...

 

but does that really help someone out there ? all the gibberish ?

 

in order that someone might gets lead into the direction of trading in the flow.. someone has to first experience it! in order to know!

 

but how can he achieve it .. is totally up to his individual personality... no one can pin point the right path for that person.. maybe show alternative ways or doors.. but the person has to step up on its own..

 

and therefore the person has to understand what points and doors are the right ones for him.. and trust his innerbelief.. wich door might lead him to his path..

 

cheers

[zdo 20]

You said, “My posts are : offtoppic: ie they are for those few who ‘need’ flow and are willing and able to pay the price for sustained flow.” I’m not sure I understand what you mean by paying the price for sustained flow. Perhaps you could clarify that for me. What is the price?

...

 

You might argue that the price for flow was hours of being in the water as a surfer, or years as cop, or many, many years meditating, or years as a therapist, or as a trader. But I’ve never had the sense that I had to pay a price for flow. It was much more like getting out of the way and letting it take me over.

 

FXGirl,

 

re “sustained flow. Perhaps you could clarify that for me. What is the price?”

 

Let’s make the paradigm distinctions clear:

Flow as the exception

and

Flow as the norm.

RozTom’s post #114 epitomizes the flow as the exception paradigm, but all the on - topic posts herein are based in that paradigm. Reading the rest of your post, with the content like “I’ve experienced it surfing… I’ve experienced it as a cop… I’ve experienced it in deep meditation… I’ve experienced it as a trader” , etc., it sounds to me like you are securely crowded into the flow as the exception paradigm where flow is a spontaneous or situation bound systemic response of “getting out of the way and letting it take me over”.

 

“Getting out of the way” is not a reliable possibility “if the first body is not clear” “You will / may have ‘flashes’ of flow, but you have NO chance of living in flow.” Post #103. In the flow as the norm paradigm, ““Flow is your natural state… your birthright…” Scott Sonnen. It is nothing special really.

…

One is either in Flow or in bound-flow

While there are gradients to bound flow The transition between flow and bound-flow is a discrete quanta” Post #103

 

 

Re: What is the price?

"Clearing bound flow in the first body: Simply – mindfully find and fully exhale into all your bindings. “One” at a time – until they are all gone. I put quotes around “One” because they actually always come as a connected group… but that only becomes obvious after you start getting into the subtleties of the work. Use the breath to ‘relax’ into challenging physical positions. The work is simple, but difficult. Done properly, the rate of perceived effort and discomfort is quite high. NO pain! (but) EXTREME discomfort. ...

How do you know when you have cleared your bindings? You’ll be in flow. ie you never do ‘try’ to get into flow. The doing you do is to clear the bound flow…" Post #103

 

Someone mentioned yoga. From the etiology of some of the yoga words I suspect original yoga was about the flow as the norm paradigm, but modern day ‘western’ yoga has been so corrupted it’s now just a ‘stress’ reducer and ‘health’ assist, etc... and odds of finding an instructor who is grounded in flow as the norm paradigm are extremely low… However, utilizing the serious yoga postures themselves are a viable avenue for identifying specific types of bound flow clusters in the body… but the practice of clearing bindings slows to the individual’s pace and place instead of keeping up with a stream of postures.

 

Clearing bound flow in the first body is hard work. Should you be attracted to trying on this paradigm, you would need to make a fairly open ended total commitment to finding and clearing all the bound flow in the first body and also develop ways to ‘dis-create’ in real time, instead of forming new bindings.

 

Gotta go…Trailing off with short blurbs now - hopefully they don't cloud things… just review the on–topic posts for examples if these aren’t clear

… it’s sometimes a temptation to get all psychological and consider the egos’ ‘evil’ roles.

... “Devils snare” ... the various developmental fight / "surrender", fear / "trust" turns we have taken in various stages, etc. ... avoiding discomforts, etc or "paying the price" by heading right into them like harry did ...

… or fall back into the flow as the exception paradigm and attempt to meditate, train, or entrain your mind to take you to ‘body-theta’ (not a real word, btw )

… ironically, ‘exception flows’ can then become ‘obstacles’ in the whole of the process

 

Hope this clarifies for you. If not - I've disrupted this thread too much already so - let's take it PM... (not selling anything, btw)

 

All the best,

 

zdo.

Edited April 3, 2012 by zdo

[jaysmith124 10]

A simple example most use of being in the flow is driving a car. Most of the time we use our unconscious mind to drive, while repeatedly reverting back to our conscious mind to deliberately deal with unfamiliar, and uncertain, territory. Through training, and repetition, we gain trust in our unconscious to have complete control. This control is maintained even when the unexpected happens. I experienced this while riding my motorcycle along with a passenger. I car went through a red light. I had to skillfully use both back and front breaks to stop as fast as possible in thirty feet without fishtailing out of control. We approached the care, which had slammed the breaks stopping in front of me and starring with fear. As I approached, I brought the back of the bike up so that we were almost sideways just before the car and at coming to a speed where the back tire stopped skidding and gripped the pavement, while our momentum brought us back upright, and I was able to continue at an angle just missing the car. I was amazed. I had no fear of what might have happened. Internally, I felt lucky, but mostly proud as if I meant to maneuver out of the situation that way. Yet, my passenger was scared &%$# and couldn't get over it. How did you do that! (The skills I acquired from dirt bike riding enabled me to deal with this situation on the street.)

 

Our mental filter is the culprit most of the time, but especially in trading, we need to be aware of physiological filters such as sight. We need to know ourselves. We best know ourselves when we don't have conflicting beliefs, habits and additions between the unconscious, and conscious mind. We need to know when we go in and out of our unconscious flow; when to be relaxed and not think, or any more than needed. If we are intensely focused when trading we blind ourselves from surrounding events. If we are to be attacked by a few thugs we need to be aware of what the others are about to do, not just the one who is coming at you and swinging. We will not have the use of our natural peripheral vision if we allow fear to cause focus solely on the one target. This fear is filtering other information out so that we can fully protect ourselves from apparent, primary, and present danger, but leaving us vulnerable to secondary dangers. Or, leaving us unaware of opportunities.

 

Be aware of your focus when you see a trade opportunity. Do you start feeling uneasiness, or anxiety? This is mental filter interfering with what you know you should do. What you know you should do will be coming from your unconscious and conscious in unity with no conflict(s). What you do without thinking comes from your unconscious after training, repetition, and preparation. From my empirical understanding, we find trading difficult, because their is too much time think. The unconscious works best alone, and in milliseconds. Many don't understand why they miss so much when after the fact is so evident.

 

Do you become blind when focusing on a chart? An exact price? Besides the mental filter being the culprit interfering with what you know is going on, here is an exercise that may wake you up to how you can see, and don't see, what is there. Purely physiological. You will become blind to peripheral events somewhere between 3 to 7 seconds.

 

I think the ability to act without thinking should be called a gift since most can't carry it over to activities of their choice. Many can train, practice, but never get past their consciousness. They give up thinking that they don't have what it takes. They succumb, to a controlling belief system having been victimized by, or accepting, circumstances. And they call those with talent gifted. What they don't understand is, that for the right reasons, we are all capable of being gifted in certain areas of choice, and commitment. One main reason one finds they are gifted is because they have an attitude that finds the activity fun! And exiting!

[zdo 20]

A simple example most use of being in the flow is driving a car

 

the way jaysmith124 just used the term ‘flow’ is not the way I used the term ‘flow’

ie for me "flow" not synonymous with "unconscious competence" - at all

…mostly goes to show just how off - topic my posts were ….

 

nevertheless - great post jaysmith124 ...

[rrhandle 10]

What about "luck"?

I have been using some software I purchased years ago to find my luck days each month, and it does seem to work.