Unconscious Vs Conscious Competence

[roztom 10]

Greetings: Thanks for visiting this thread.

 

I hope you will share some of what you have learned about yourself and how you deal with the 2 sides of your trading mind.

 

This actually relates to the conflict between the intuitive self and our pragmatic self the real world educated self (life, school, socialization, family, etc..) and the trading self..

 

I am not a psycologist but an experienced discretionary trader..

 

I have experienced something over and over and I am wondering if this happens to you and if so what have you done as a solution.

 

Here's what happens to me: I look at a market or whatever, my mind pops with what I see, it is a confluence of charts, technicals, over 30yrs experience, screen time and last nights pasta..

 

I sense what is likely to happen and where I should take a trade and/or exit.... Quite often I am right on the button..

 

HOWEVER, when things get going my logical non-intuitive self can take over, move a stop, dump a good position. I become UNCONSCIOUS of what I had thought before..like it never happened... I can become myopic at times..this costs me...

 

I write down what I intuitively see but often it is in front of me and I no longer see it... My conscious brain has overridden the intuitive..

 

Somehow they need to co-exist but they often don't...

 

Any of you have this conflict and if so how have you successfully or unsuccessfully tried to manage it..?

 

Thanks for your time and consideration..this might require some "thought."

[Obsidian 10]

spending too much time in front of the screen may not be a good idea after you enter a trade..set your targets and leave

[roztom 10]

spending too much time in front of the screen may not be a good idea after you enter a trade..set your targets and leave

 

Good idea but I am a daytrader... It is what can happen before the trade goes on ... and how the field of vision can change..

 

Thanks for the post..

[SIUYA 11]

switch to a larger time frame and continue to watch.

eg; pick your direction using (1hr, 25 range bar etc;) go to 5min/5 range bar enter trade, then go back to the larger scale.....allows you to watch without getting tick trigger happy

[roztom 10]

switch to a larger time frame and continue to watch.

eg; pick your direction using (1hr, 25 range bar etc;) go to 5min/5 range bar enter trade, then go back to the larger scale.....allows you to watch without getting tick trigger happy

 

Appreciate your suggestions...

 

Do you have any comments/suggestions on the psycological aspects of this question?

[MightyMouse 12]

Tom,

 

Sounds to me like you spend a little time aligning your "self" with the market. Your "self" should have nothing to do with the market. Spend your time thinking about how to get money from the other "selves" in the market.

 

When I enter a trade, I am always hoping I run into someone with a larger ego who thinks he knows what he is doing when he is winning.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but its a common mistake to think you can learn something about your "self" from trading.

 

Do not take my statements to mean that I have mastered or tamed my ego. Nothing can be further than the truth.

 

MM

[roztom 10]

Tom,

 

Sounds to me like you spend a little time aligning your "self" with the market. Your "self" should have nothing to do with the market. Spend your time thinking about how to get money from the other "selves" in the market.

 

When I enter a trade, I am always hoping I run into someone with a larger ego who thinks he knows what he is doing when he is winning.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but its a common mistake to think you can learn something about your "self" from trading.

 

Do not take my statements to mean that I have mastered or tamed my ego. Nothing can be further than the truth.

 

MM

 

Thanks MM: I think one really won't know themself, especially on the Micro level until they attempt to trade especially since the skills of successful trading are contrary to the skills most of us use in the "real world.".. I don't think trading teaches you about yourself per se but forces you to learn about yourself as part of the process - not taking exception to your comment BTW...

 

The point of my question is really about the conflicts that arise from within that can sabotage our success...

 

In spite of how long I have done this I still make unnecessary errors and it is sometimes like Dr. Jeckel & Dr. Hyde... :doh:

 

Most of us have probably said to ourselves, "Why did I do that?" "I know I shouldn't have done that but I did it anyway." "What was I thinking?"

 

That I suspect is the self-talk we go through when we screw up but which side of the mind is screwing up? Seems to me that there is a struggle always going on... sometimes it is buried, other times it is right on the surface messing with the execution of ones trade plan..

 

I'm hoping we can learn more about experiences in this area that can be the determinant of trading success or failure..

[MightyMouse 12]

I have moved from saying "why did I just do that" or "what was I thinking" to "Fu6k Trading!" "I Love Trading" or I Hate Trading!" The change coincided with an improvement in results which was largely a result of learning how to properly execute. So, the mistakes are about 99% gone and I just deal with the good and bad results of the trade.

 

I hate losing, I always will hate losing, and I want to hate losing. If someone wants to learn to like losing, then be my guest. A bad day of day trading, defined as multiple losses with no chance of recovery, aggravates the shit out of me. But I do know that each and every trade was done properly.

 

I completely accept that there are times when I am looking for something that just is not there and I accept that sometimes I get paid a nice chunk because, well, "shit happens".

[karoshiman 10]

Hi MM,

 

I am not sure whether I understand your points correctly...

 

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but its a common mistake to think you can learn something about your "self" from trading.

 

MM

 

Anyone who has a decent amount of success in this business can assert that it is important to find a trading style that fits your personality.

 

But how do you want to do this without knowing yourself?

 

Okay, maybe there are some beginning traders out there who already know themselves so well that it is easy for them to find the right trading style for them. But I would bet that the majority of beginning traders are not in that position.

 

My experience is that trading brings the worst sides of you to the surface and confronts you in a brutal way with your shortcomings. Especially, as trading requires a skill set that is in certain ways very much different than the skill set you need to succeed, for instance, in the corporate world (the only same "skill" required in both that comes to my mind right now is hard work). That's what I've learned about myself. Only after accepting my shortcomings I was able to work on finding a trading style that works best for me.

 

So, for me, trading is indeed like a journey to myself. And I would even say that trading made me a more humble person in general.

 

But the individual experiences might differ here, of course.

 

 

I completely accept that there are times when I am looking for something that just is not there and I accept that sometimes I get paid a nice chunk because, well, "shit happens".

 

 

But "looking for something that just is not there" is YOUR mistake. You should not hate trading for that. You can hate trading if you stick to your rules (if you have precise rules, of course) and still make too many losses in a row. That's two different things for me.

 

But anyway, I might misunderstand your point here and you seem to be successful with your mental approach to your trading. And that's the only thing that counts!

 

I've just wanted to share what came to my mind when I've read your comments.

 

k

[SIUYA 11]

Appreciate your suggestions...

 

Do you have any comments/suggestions on the psycological aspects of this question?

 

My only take on this, and this is from my own personal experience is that you (and "you" also refers to "me" as I sometimes get this problem) are trying to get too much from the markets sometimes.

I dont actually think its the fear of having a position. Its the greed of wanting too much.

 

Its the old thinking - if I had done that, I could have captured that move, or those extra ticks.

Its the taking of the marginal trades - along the lines of thinking "I am long here, if I sell it here and buy it back lower to capture a few extra ticks then"

1)....how smart am I,

2) this will make more money, and

3) ......I feel I need to do something to maximise and capture every opportunity I see. (This need to be busy clearly comes from my parents neglecting me and my 4 brothers as children )

 

This leads to over trading, and feeding your broker

 

By expanding out the time frame again, you minimise the mini marginal opportunities you might see that will trip you up.

[SIUYA 11]

Karoshiman - my take from MM is that while its good to know yourself, while its great to realise that trading can make you a more humble person and face up to the reality that you will often be wrong, or a poor predictor of the future or whatever - only historical results will show you this....

 

For him - and this may not apply for everyone - he takes "himself" out of the equation. It is then not a matter of "why did I do that" it becomes a matter of "if that does not work then dont do it"....."just do what testing shows works" --- notice there is no reference to I in the second string of sentences.

 

Then either the market context works for your style/strategy at that time - "I love trading" or it causes a sting of losses "I hate trading"

 

Hence his subconscious is focused on the market at the time and not on how he feels...this only occurs after.

 

 

Relating this to this thread - the question should always be - what is the market doing....not what am I thinking. This is particularly hard as often we only remember the times that our thinking saved us or made us money....not when it cost us profits. When the unconscious mind knows there are levels, or knows it has seen this type of pattern before then maybe we can rely on it. A bit like riding a bike - you dont think about all the physics involved, you just go with the balancing act as it happens.

Edited March 25, 2012 by SIUYA

[karoshiman 10]

 

... he takes "himself" out of the equation. ...

 

... Hence his subconscious is focused on the market at the time and not on how he feels...

 

... Relating this to this thread - the question should always be - what is the market doing....not what am I thinking. ...

 

... the times that our thinking saved us or made us money....not when it cost us profits. ...

 

When the unconscious mind knows there are levels, or knows it has seen this type of pattern before then maybe we can rely on it. A bit like riding a bike - you dont think about all the physics involved, you just go with the balancing act as it happens.

 

 

Hi Siuya,

 

Thank you. I understand the point and agree to that. But I do know now where my "confusion" comes from. I have a different understanding of the subconscious.

 

I've quoted the parts of your post to which I relate here.

 

"Taking yourself out of the equation" is a good thing, but it is a willful act. Hence, it is based on the conscious mind. It has nothing to do with your subconscious.

 

Or, you can not KNOW what the subconscious is focused on (the market or how you feel or whatever), otherwise it would be no subconscious.

 

In the next sentences you speak about "thinking", and that to me is also the conscious mind and not the subconscious. The subconscious to me, is what I FEEL at the moment and what I can not explain on a rational level (maybe I can explain it later after thorough analysis). It's gut feeling, not brain thinking...

 

I agree 100% to your last sentence and your analogy with bike riding. I sometimes do have a "feel" about things and these feelings are very accurate, although I can not explain these rationally. However, I've learned to trust my feel/intuition, whether it is in trading (e.g. getting out of a trade prematurely and suddenly markets go against my original position) or other areas of my life. I think that intuition is in today's world a very much overlooked power... having said this... may the force... er... feel be with you!

[TheNegotiator 13]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the kinda of thing where you get onside then the market pulls back against you and your emotional self is screaming at you not to lose or at the market for not going straight to your exit.

 

Having realistic expectations of the way the market might trade to get to where you are targeting is one point. The market always rolls back on itself as we all know, so it's important to get in at good "location" or with correct "position sizing" to give the trade the space it needs. Level of tolerance on pullbacks is important and needs to be accounted for. I have had problems with this before. Two things help imho. Just slapping my emotional self to remind me that what matters is the end result of a trade not what it currently is printing. Sure, if it's achieved 95% of my expectation I might take it off more quickly as the risk:reward is highest here. But if I'm onside and it hasn't violated my expectations, then I have to say to myself if I want to exit "then why did you get in anyway?". Second is scaling. It does take a good deal of pressure off and I know it's something others don't like. I think it's something you do already though.

 

I have moved from saying "why did I just do that" or "what was I thinking" to "Fu6k Trading!" "I Love Trading" or I Hate Trading!" The change coincided with an improvement in results which was largely a result of learning how to properly execute. So, the mistakes are about 99% gone and I just deal with the good and bad results of the trade.

 

I hate losing, I always will hate losing, and I want to hate losing. If someone wants to learn to like losing, then be my guest. A bad day of day trading, defined as multiple losses with no chance of recovery, aggravates the shit out of me. But I do know that each and every trade was done properly.

 

I completely accept that there are times when I am looking for something that just is not there and I accept that sometimes I get paid a nice chunk because, well, "shit happens".

 

Agreed MM. But you should also want to be really good at losing without necessarily liking it(aka cutting losses at the appropriate point). Not being effective at taking a loss is one of the biggest if not the biggest challenge traders face imho.

 

 

Its the taking of the marginal trades - along the lines of thinking "I am long here, if I sell it here and buy it back lower to capture a few extra ticks then"

1)....how smart am I,

2) this will make more money, and

3) ......I feel I need to do something to maximise and capture every opportunity I see. (This need to be busy clearly comes from my parents neglecting me and my 4 brothers as children )

 

This leads to over trading, and feeding your broker

 

By expanding out the time frame again, you minimise the mini marginal opportunities you might see that will trip you up.

 

Yeah, I was going to point out marginal trades too. Those ones that you take in hope more than belief and your emotions go mental as soon as you see it tick against you. Usually momentum type trades when I take them and normally it's quickly obvious whether they'll work. If you're late at getting on the train, you have to accept the chance that you'll have to get off soon else face it turning around and reversing down the same direction it came from.

Edited March 25, 2012 by TheNegotiator

[MightyMouse 12]

Hi MM,

1. But how do you want to do this without knowing yourself?

 

2. My experience is that trading brings the worst sides of you to the surface and confronts you in a brutal way with your shortcomings.

 

3. But "looking for something that just is not there" is YOUR mistake. You should not hate trading for that. You can hate trading if you stick to your rules (if you have precise rules, of course) and still make too many losses in a row. That's two different things for me.

 

k

 

1. In wasting your time knowing yourself to improve trading, I am referring mainly to the time spent understanding why you are still upset about your father not playing with you when you were a child. I didn't mean you shouldn't find a style of trading that suits you.

 

In my mind, finding a style of trading means finding a type of trader that you are good at taking money from.

 

2. Your short comings and worst sides of you are sides that you learned are bad, but in fact don't even exist. I know there is nothing wrong with me. I do not know you, but am quite comfortable saying that there is nothing wrong with you either. Do not think that this means that I think I know everything or that you should now think you know everything.

 

You are supposed to be happy when you succeed, angry when someone takes something from you, and get nervous when a trade goes against you, etc. If these are normal and you do them then there is nothing wrong with you. You need to learn to manage them, and trade while you manage them, but they are completely normal. If you experience fear, then you need to rid yourself of it, but that is a completely different topic.

 

3. I wish I could say that I know that money is going to be there for me to take when I trade, but I simply do not know. So if not knowing if money is there to take is a mistake, then, yes, I make mistakes. However, taking a trade when I am supposed to take a trade is never a mistake. Losing money on a properly executed trade is never a mistake. I completely accept that I am going to be wrong and I am prepared every single trade to be wrong. My acceptance of it doesn't mean I like it.

[karoshiman 10]

Hi MM,

 

100% agreed!

 

But now I really understand where my misunderstanding of this thread was... I thought Tom speaks about intuition in contrast to rational reasoning. Whereas your points and those of SIUYA relate to emotions in trading, which is again something different (in this regard my post #12 is misleading as I use the words "feel" or "feeling" as a synonym to "intuition"... will edit it). I have the same view as you and Siuya on the topic of emotions. In fact, I've made a similar comment in another thread on that subject.

 

Relating to the above, I define "intuition" as getting an opinion (better than "feeling" I guess) on something without having a rational explanation for it (commonly known as "gut feeling"... sorry, again the word "feel"...).

 

Whereas emotions comprise "real" feelings like greed, fear, anger, etc.

 

k

 

EDIT: I could not edit my post #12 as there is no "EDIT" button... ??

[roztom 10]

I agree wirh your posts..

 

Emotions: They must be managed and also how we cope with not liking losses, or the desire to be a victor on the financial field of battle - all depending how one aligns their vision of themselves in this endavor I believe..

 

In order to succeed we must all manage the emotional aspects of trading - we all do that or attempt to do that in different ways which align with our beliefs and vision of ourselves. It is necessary to succeed.

 

My objective is to consistently execute my trade plan every day and win/lose/draw that is a good day for me.. If I execute a losing trade according to plan for me, emotionally it is a winner - eventhough a financial loss...

 

BTW MM , I HATE to lose also..I will pound my fist on the desk...that's just my release.

 

 

Monkey See - Monkey Not Do:

 

The question here is what happens when you see something or even have a sturcture violated in the market, you recognize it mentally let's say you are short and a recent Minor Swing High is violated in the shorter timeframe but it is not unusual for a rotation to take some stops and that might be a good place to reposition for a test of the potential low - let's assume it is a logical spot - a "competent" location to consider a continuation trade and lets assume there is enough profit potential to justify the trade..

 

However, the rejection off the bottom was swift, your "unconscious competance" says Wow that is a bottom, but since you are descretionary then you get to a level and the "other" part of your brain the "Conscious" side takes a continuation trade against an emerging trend..

 

Your trade plan allows for continuation trades but as you approach that level your focused more mechanical side no longer sees or remembers the intuitive, nuance driven "unconscious competence" which recognized the bottom - you recognized the swift rejection.

 

Your conscious side "forgets the inner voice of "Unconscious Competence." It is lost in the myopic focus of the "Conscious Competence" which zero's in and then goes ahead and takes that trade against the new emerging trend.. LIKE IT NEVER HAPPENED!!

 

Now maybe that is part of your trade paln but the information "unconscious competent" which recognized that change was not part of the decision to renenter which is more a setup based action when you see a rotation - if that is your trade style..

 

Now the trade plan allows for that trade but the "unconscious competent" side of your brain recognized that you should not be going that way - but instead looking to position with the emerging trend.. but your "conscious competence" disregarded that "unconscious recognition" and executed what would become a losing trade and also gave up trade location for a trade going the other way..

 

In a trade plan which typically must be structured I find it difficult to reconcile both.. since they can be in conflict. The other issue - the competent side doesn't even remember the unconscious competent that recognized the trend change potential.

 

One part is the discipline to just execute the trade.. now I'm not suggesting you stand in front of a freight train for ex if you are at a 50% retracement or midpoint after a swift rejection of a low and it is clear to your "competent" side..

 

It is when the competent side is following setups without integrating the information the "unconscious competent" recognized. When you say "Why Did I do That?" - that question comes because you recognized market behavior with your "unconscious competance" and disregarded it in the "competent" moment. (Not necessarily a trade plan error but not capitalizing on the experience your "unconscious competent" brings to the table)

 

Maybe you just write it off as a losing trade.. How can you account for the "unconscious side" speaking to you when we tend to trade from the "competent" more structured side?

 

Maybe it's my own personal weakness but it is really when all the experience goes out the window and it seems that this conflict can occasionally take a great day and turn it into poop - at least it occasionally does for me...

 

I am wondering how you guys deal with this - assuming you do experience this at all? I do not think it is unique to me - at least I hope not..

 

Do you just accept it as part of what happens and just stick to your plan..?

 

Remember, I am not talking about the things your "conscious competence" sees but the things your "unconscious self" sees & acknowledges "that's a bottom" but disregards as you execute after your "conscious competent" brain is still looking for the continuation with the former trend when your inner voice told you to be off the trade and should be going the other way.

 

I hope I am expressing this clearly - I understand it may be something you guys don't experience and also you may accomodate it by just ignoring it if it does.. allowing for it and just executing your plan.

 

Maybe this part of the brain would cause a breakdown of discipline and stucture and create random outcomes.. Should it just be ignored for the need for consistency? Can it be, should it be allowed into the plan?

 

Have you integrated it into your process/plan?

 

This is why I am intersted in your experiences in this area.. it is something that I think emerges as you get experience under your belt.. IMHO.

 

Thanks again for your efforts and time to share what you do.. If this does not apply to you then I appreciate your efforts to contribute... maybe I just need a good therapist.. :crap:

Edited March 25, 2012 by roztom

[karoshiman 10]

Hi Tom,

 

Just saw your last post in the Day Trading the E-mini Futures thread. I don't know what "twinky" means, but I understood that you think others might not have the same issue that you have described relating to your intuition (or whatever one might call it... I stick with "intuition").

 

I think everybody with a certain amount of experience has this intuition and the more experience you have the stronger the intuition is.

 

But in order to make use of it you have to embrace it.

 

I've learned to trust my intuition in all areas of life and I've made very good experience with it. It might seem illogical why one should listen to his gut feeling, but I've explained this gut feeling to myself as a knowledge base which we have gathered consciously but also unconsciously over many years and which is not available to our conscious mind as it is just too much of information. I've experienced also that our subconscious can combine all this information much quicker than we can do this consciously.

 

I am a semi-discretionary trader, i.e. I have some mechanical rules for my trades, in particular for my entries, but when it comes to my position size, profit targets and stops I use some discretion (although I have rules here too).

 

I experience my intuition in several ways in my trading.

 

One is, I get a strong opinion on a sudden price move out of nowhere which is not based on any of my regular methods. I take this as a scalping play at least. Sometimes I even see then that AFTER I've got this strong opinion I get a signal based on my regular methods, which makes me even more confident and leads me to keep my position longer of course.

 

Other situations are that I get so sure about some of my trades that I increase my position size strongly.

 

However, my intuition kicks in most frequently when it comes to my exits. I often get out of a winning trade prematurely just to see price reverse and move against my original position. But I have to optimize this one, as it was several times only a stronger retracement and price moved later to my original target. But still I could profit from that as I could re-entry later at a more favorable price.

 

I find this subject fascinating and found also some books about it. However, I did not yet have the time to read such books, but plan to do so.

 

Another thing, that comes to my mind on this subject is that - and this is not relating to your personal situation, Tom, as I do not know you, but a more general comment - if the struggle between the conscious and subconscious happens too often or too strong (e.g. your method gives a buy signal, but your inner voice screams "SELL!") one should maybe review their trading style in general. Maybe it is not (anymore?) the right style for a trader or maybe a piece of the puzzle is missing.

 

k

[karoshiman 10]

Hi Tom,

 

We wrote our last posts (again ) at the same time. I did not see your post #16 (the long one) before I've entered my last one.

 

Relating to the trading example you describe I would not take a trade, if I get a signal based on my methods but my inner voice says it's going the other way. What is the worst that can happen? You miss a profitable trade or you get in maybe a little late (which might still be okay depending on your style). So what? You did not risk anything either.

 

But I trust my intuition very much. I think trust is important.

 

k

[roztom 10]

Thanks.. I do understand your point..I really don't expect an answer for me personally since we are all different in that repect but I am interested in what others have done and how/if they use the "unconscious competent" in their trading.

 

There is an assumption, of course, that one has "unconscious competence" and that it is not the "conscious incompetent" thrashing over what to do.. :helloooo:

 

The other issue is how Random might the "unconscious competent" be correct? Can it be quantified? I suspect it can't...

 

That is the question among the others articulated previously..

 

What about that "unconscious competence?" We all have invested a lot of time and effort to have it.. it is a by product of study, experience - screen time..

 

Is There A Way To Capitalize On It? Is there a Way to Allow it into the plan and get the "Conscious Competent" to align and work with it?

 

Thanks for all your responses..

[karoshiman 10]

 

There is an assumption, of course, that one has "unconscious competence" and that it is not the "conscious incompetent" thrashing over what to do..

 

 

I like that one...

 

 

The other issue is how Random might the "unconscious competent" be correct? Can it be quantified? I suspect it can't...

 

...

 

... Is there a Way to Allow it into the plan and get the "Conscious Competent" to align and work with it?

 

 

I guess, it's only quantifiable in hindsight. One way could be to keep a journal for such situations of conflict between conscious and unconscious competence taking a note on the specific situation and the outcome. By doing that one could determine a "win rate" or even an average profit/loss for the unconscious competence (if it also provides for stops and exits). It would be like an additional profit center in your trading arsenal.

 

You could "paper trade" it for a while, i.e. not taking the trades your unconscious competence wants you to take (but sticking to your conscious comp.) and just taking the notes. That way you could build more confidence in it, after you see the results of a certain amount of trades. Might take a while if it happens not too often...

 

I can not imagine another way to work with it other than the aforementioned journal and to listen to it when it "pops up".

 

Another thing that comes to my mind is that I was thinking about which information exactly is the unconscious competence processing that it is coming up with an opinion on price action. I mean, it has to be something that is on my screen, right? lol I think I know what my brain is processing here but in my case it is difficult to build further rules out of it in order to incorporate it into my trading plan systematically.

[roztom 10]

 

 

Another thing that comes to my mind is that I was thinking about which information exactly is the unconscious competence processing that it is coming up with an opinion on price action. I mean, it has to be something that is on my screen, right? lol I think I know what my brain is processing here but in my case it is difficult to build further rules out of it in order to incorporate it into my trading plan systematically.

 

I don't think the "unconscious competent" can be quantified..it is a confluence of skills that have been "internalized." Like a musician or athlete..it just happens..from years of repetition.. it flows.

 

The market "speaks" to you, etc.. The challange, especially in a structured trading enviroment is "How Do You Listen."

 

Problem is: How To Listen?

Edited March 25, 2012 by roztom

[SIUYA 11]

The question here is what happens when you see something or even have a sturcture violated in the market, you recognize it mentally let's say you are short and a recent Minor Swing High is violated in the shorter timeframe but it is not unusual for a rotation to take some stops and that might be a good place to reposition for a test of the potential low - let's assume it is a logical spot - a "competent" location to consider a continuation trade and lets assume there is enough profit potential to justify the trade..

 

Maybe its Sunday and I am tired from a bike ride, but this is hard to follow.

However....It seems as if you are saying....

"structure is violated" --- doesn't that say it all?

 

Maybe in this case you will exit the short on a continuation of downtrend due to intuition, but to then enter a long on a feeling/hunch/unconscious competence becomes punting in my book.

 

the "Conscious" side takes a continuation trade against an emerging trend.. [/b]

 

or what could be an emerging trend. You are bottom picking in your example.

There is a lot of assumption here that not only might you have a break/rest/congestion in a downtrend, but that you all ALSO have a new trend..... dependent on time frame then usually you have plenty of time for these things to turn around, otherwise your clips sound very small.

 

How do you know your "unconscious competent" is good at recognizing changes or is looking for them in order to exit a trade. In your case it sounds as though you dont know, otherwise you could just incorpoarte into any plan extra steps

a....fast bounce from new lows, and

b....violation of recent swing highs

= new trend, so then how do you enter?

 

YOU ARE OVER TRADING AND DOING MARGINAL TRADES.....trying to capture every move.

 

 

 

How can you account for the "unconscious side" speaking to you when we tend to trade from the "competent" more structured side?

 

 

Every time you get a feeling like this......mark on your chart what you felt like you should have done. Save that chart or record it somewhere. Then stick to your trading plan as it originally stood.

Do this consistently for a month......then look at if you need/can improve your system.

 

(my guess is that you will loose just as much trying to pick the bottoms, or at least you will trade less, and have less anxiety even if you exit your original shorts at similar levels)

You will then have a record

[karoshiman 10]

 

Maybe in this case you will exit the short on a continuation of downtrend due to intuition, but to then enter a long on a feeling/hunch/unconscious competence becomes punting in my book.

 

 

 

+1

 

I would not do that either although I trust my intuition a lot. I would just get flat, that's it.

[roztom 10]

Siuya: Those are very good points...

 

There is a possiblity that the outcome of integrating "unconscious competence" into competent trading is random.

 

There is no way to know other than trying to quantify it..

 

In my case my competent side dominates my unconscious side when the unconscious competent has more highly developed skills..

 

I wonder how many of you become myopic as you zero in on a trade... like tunnel vision..all other thoughts, input, distractions leave your consciousness...like shooting a rifle - complete focus on the target...

 

This is where the conscious mind and the "subconscious experience" or "unconscious competence" or "skill" should partner.

 

I find that while the "competent consciousness" skill functions for me quite well on recognizing setups, entry, execution, etc. it is when the intuitive side which has recognized conflicting information, also based on skill - is discounted. (not on a conscious level)

 

I do not decide to discount it..my other side that is executing is not conscious what my intuitive side had recognized..

 

It is the difference when you see it and immediately forget it or when you see it and you get it..it is when that unconscious skill is not capitalized on...that is the issue..

 

BTW, packets of Excedrin as parting gifts for eveyone who visits and contributes to this thread... :doh:

Edited March 25, 2012 by roztom

[karoshiman 10]

 

 

The market "speaks" to you, etc.. The challange, especially in a structured trading enviroment is "How Do You Listen."

 

Problem is: How To Listen?

 

 

Isn't that dependent on what each individual trader has on its screen and is used to look at for 10,000 hours? Otherwise you could not have developed such intuition in the first place.

 

Or are you referring with the "how" in your question to the environment other than your trading screen (e.g. whether you listen to stimulating music while watching the screen or whether you work out before your trading session or whatever helps to free up your mind in order to be alert and able to absorb the maximum amount of information)?