The 7 Shades of Trading BS

[TheNegotiator 13]

Seeing as though we all seem to enjoy a really good old rant, here's one for you to get stuck into.

 

There are many forms of bs in this industry nearly everywhere you look. It's important to know what it looks like so you can avoid it, but also embrace the er, anti-bs. You know what I mean! Feel free to discuss the points, prove them wrong or add more to the list.

 

 

1- The Get Rich Quick Scheme.

 

Oh dear. Not a good start really if you come into the business with the attitude that you want to make loads of money. Almost a sure-fire way to lose it all. Trade to trade well, not to make money. Money is a by-product of being a good trader.

 

2- The Magic Indicator.

 

Next! Come on really? The point is that indicators are based on historical data and lag current activity. Yes there are lots to choose from in a plethora of multicoloured kaleidoscopic fantastical forms, but really at the end of it all still remains your biggest hurdle- you.

 

3- Vendor Selling Techniques.

 

This includes baiting, false guarantees, poor rehashing of outdated tools and indicators. Blah, blah, blah. If someone said to you they'll teach you the secrets of alchemy for a couple of thousand bucks, what would you think? Go figure.

 

4- The Predictor

 

We all do it at times. But some people live it. Predicting what the markets will do rather than what they might do. Seriously, do yourself a favour right now if you think it's possible to be right all the time- quit while your ahead. Because the market loves to teach these people a lesson!

 

5- Self-denial

 

Self-denial is such a pile of crap in trading. It really stinks. There was a thread a while back by Ingot on this very topic. Get a grip. If you do things you know are bad, deal with them and take ownership of your business. Otherwise you only have yourself to blame.

 

6- Blanket pseudo psychology.

 

Trader has problem. Trader talks to trading buddies, forum members, shrinks or even their broker(:doh:) for advice. Yeah well maybe you should do this, maybe you should do that. HEY WAKE UP! :helloooo: It's you. You live your life. You DO know what your problems are.

 

7- The Big Swinging Dick

 

Perhaps the stinkiest pile of bs about is the BIG SWINGING DICK. This is the guy who tells(or lets people believe) everyone just how brilliant all of their trades are. Let me tell you right now. Guys who really are trading like this generally DON'T shout about it. They don't need to. I assure you. Ask the question, "is this actually for real?".

 

 

and to all of this, all I have to say is:

 

[GlassOnion 12]

Most of the "Big Swinging Dicks" I have read about are guy's ( can a female be a Big Swinging Dick? ) who have made one really big score, usually luck, or being in the right place at the right time, and ride the legend forever.

[roztom 10]

Trader are Insane:

 

Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome..

 

It's Behavior, Behavior, Behavior... the rest is all B.S.

 

 

Some Other Goodies:

 

I bought the low, sold the high..

 

That move was obvious..look at my chart, I had that number right there...

 

I took 12 trades: 10 winners, 1 B/E, lost 1 pt... This is easy if you just do what I do... I'll post my chart so you can see how I DID it..

 

I've got a winning system I've worked on for 10 yrs... I was going to sell it but decided I didn't want to be called a scam artist so I won't sell it. Oh, you want to know about it.. Nah, It's too good and you might not follow it right and then you might call me a scammer...

 

I could tell you how I do it but then it wouldn't be yours.. I've already given you hints..it's so obvious..just keep staring at that chart...

Edited March 24, 2012 by roztom

[FredPro 10]

I've read a couple of your rants, 'Buy My Trading Strategy - It's Brilliant!!' and your latest post 'The 7 Shades of Trading Bullshit'. And while I agree with them in general just a few points I'd like to discuss.

 

I see you fail to mention the latest scam, the robot / EA. As one programmer on LinkedIn claims, trades 24 hours a day, made 3000 pips over 15 months without a loss, yours for only $29.99 or some ridiculous price. Buy it today and you can lie in bed pulling your pecker and become a multimillioniare, now hows that for a orgasm!!!

 

Just wondering if this is this just an oversight on your part or are you a member of the robot fan club too, a believer in the all-powerful, hallelujah, praise the lord, I've seen the light sensation.

 

Secondly, trade to trade well, now no offence but that really is some American style bullshit. If you can only win by trading ugly, then you should trade like you married a dog-faced 6itch, (yes I trade real, real ugly).

 

Your rants also seem to infer that most new traders come in to trading with the 'gonna make godzillions' mindset, but the vast majority come into the forex just to make a few extra dollars and maybe learn to trade as well, but if they do they'll be the lucky few.

 

I leave you with this question? If you had a choice between making millions while being a bad, but lucky trader (no worries, you don't have to marry a dog-faced 6itch) or make pennies while being a good trader, which would you choose.

 

If you chose the latter, your not just in self-denial you're as thick as those who the rants are aimed at.

 

Happy trading!

[FredPro 10]

 

I bought the low, sold the high..

 

That move was obvious..look at my chart, I had that number right there...

 

I took 12 trades: 10 winners, 1 B/E, lost 1 pt... This is easy if you just do what I do... I'll post my chart so you can see how I DID it..

 

I've got a winning system I've worked on for 10 yrs... I was going to sell it but decided I didn't want to be called a scam artist so I won't sell it. Oh, you want to know about it.. Nah, It's too good and you might not follow it right and then you might call me a scammer...

 

I could tell you how I do it but then it wouldn't be yours.. I've already given you hints..it's so obvious..just keep staring at that chart...

 

Swap you my dog-faced 6itch system, 3000 pips without loss, for your 10yr winning system Roztom, as long as it's not some robotic piece of spewtum. Also it better not be your profitable 10 wins from 12 trades :crap: system either

 

Happy trading!

[bluntj89 10]

Swap you my dog-faced 6itch system, 3000 pips without loss, for your 10yr winning system Roztom, as long as it's not some robotic piece of spewtum. Also it better not be your profitable 10 wins from 12 trades :crap: system either

 

Happy trading!

 

 

Robotic Trading must work right? We don't know how exactly it's done but we know it's out there. Supposedly all Banks have a Black Box of some kind and HFT trading businesses makes billions if not trillions each year.

 

I feel that when we are trading now, we're having to trade better than these Robots, which is possibly quite an impossible feat, so instead I hear that some people spot the moves made by the big companies/robots and hop onto the back of them.

 

I have a robot but it's nothing like an HFT, I use a combination of Statistics and Genetic algorithm , neural Networks to TRY achieve what I am looking for. So far, I personally feel that great success is out there. I try to emulate Price action trading and use arbitrary stats to leverage a higher percentage or have my bot calculate and place orders much more quickly than I ever hope to. So, there is some advantages of Robots, but it's finding what you are comfortable with to make it work. Just like everyone has their own trading style, successful or not, I believe that robots is just an extension of the traders mind. Question is now though, can the trader get the bot to trade as one would do when one is completely on game and focused?

 

Best

 

James

[TheNegotiator 13]

Trader are Insane:

 

Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome..

 

 

Yeah this is a great one really. I know it's easy to fall into because all days are slightly different. But if you sit down and categorise your mistakes more broadly, I think that's a good start.

[TheNegotiator 13]

I've read a couple of your rants, 'Buy My Trading Strategy - It's Brilliant!!' and your latest post 'The 7 Shades of Trading Bullshit'. And while I agree with them in general just a few points I'd like to discuss.

 

I see you fail to mention the latest scam, the robot / EA. As one programmer on LinkedIn claims, trades 24 hours a day, made 3000 pips over 15 months without a loss, yours for only $29.99 or some ridiculous price. Buy it today and you can lie in bed pulling your pecker and become a multimillioniare, now hows that for a orgasm!!!

 

Just wondering if this is this just an oversight on your part or are you a member of the robot fan club too, a believer in the all-powerful, hallelujah, praise the lord, I've seen the light sensation.

 

Secondly, trade to trade well, now no offence but that really is some American style bullshit. If you can only win by trading ugly, then you should trade like you married a dog-faced 6itch, (yes I trade real, real ugly).

 

Your rants also seem to infer that most new traders come in to trading with the 'gonna make godzillions' mindset, but the vast majority come into the forex just to make a few extra dollars and maybe learn to trade as well, but if they do they'll be the lucky few.

 

I leave you with this question? If you had a choice between making millions while being a bad, but lucky trader (no worries, you don't have to marry a dog-faced 6itch) or make pennies while being a good trader, which would you choose.

 

If you chose the latter, your not just in self-denial you're as thick as those who the rants are aimed at.

 

Happy trading!

 

Wow, thanks FredPro! I would point out that this is a bit of an assumption that I might be in the "robot fan club". I'm not really massively interested but I know some do work. Not the $29.99/month flavour though. I think this falls very nicely within the "3- Vendor Selling Techniques." category no?

 

I never said that all traders who are new, start because they want to make gazillions of $ just as I never said that all vendors bullshit. Trade what you see, not what you think.

 

Lastly,

 

I leave you with this question? If you had a choice between making millions while being a bad, but lucky trader (no worries, you don't have to marry a dog-faced 6itch) or make pennies while being a good trader, which would you choose.

 

If you chose the latter, your not just in self-denial you're as thick as those who the rants are aimed at.

 

If you had the choice to guarantee you would make millions by being lucky, you would be rich by choice. However, hoping to get lucky over being a good consistent trader does not qualify as rational.

[steve46 12]

Negotiator

 

All well and good....most of your comments are valid...one problem though....every so often there is going to be a person who simply put...IS VERY GOOD at this profession...

 

I think you need to hope that there is at least one person of that calibre in the crowd, willing to put up with all the nasty misguided comments that come from folks who have been scammed, not to mention those who for any number of reasons, simply don't have the aptitude or education to make it in this business.

 

Otherwise, what you end up with is a group of amateurs asking each other how to do this...the blind leading the blind...

 

This should be obvious, but if not, let me make it explicit....a person who does this well, and has the ability to make money consistently....doesn't really need you (or this site)....ask youself why they might stick around and put up with all the negativity.....?

 

I would suggest that the counterpoint can be expressed as follows;.... "protect yourself" but understand that there are decent folks out there trying to help as best they can....

 

Good luck in the markets

 

Steve

Edited March 24, 2012 by steve46

[TheNegotiator 13]

Negotiator

 

All well and good....most of your comments are valid...one problem though....every so often there is going to be a person who simply put...IS VERY GOOD at this profession...

 

I think you need to hope that there is at least one person of that calibre in the crowd, willing to put up with all the nasty misguided comments that come from folks who have been scammed, not to mention those who for any number of reasons, simply don't have the aptitude or education to make it in this business.

 

Otherwise, what you end up with is a group of amateurs asking each other how to do this...the blind leading the blind...

 

This should be obvious, but if not, let me make it explicit....a person who does this well, and has the ability to make money consistently....doesn't really need you (or this site)....ask youself why they might stick around and put up with all the negativity.....?

 

I would suggest that the counterpoint can be expressed as follows;.... "protect yourself" but understand that there are decent folks out there trying to help as best they can....

 

Good luck in the markets

 

Steve

 

Steve, I do agree. Let me be clear to all that the points I make are not necessarily things I believe as UNIVERSAL TRUTHS. They are parts of the game which in pockets(large or small) do exist.There are plenty of people who are entirely different to this.

[FredPro 10]

Wow, thanks FredPro! I would point out that this is a bit of an assumption that I might be in the "robot fan club".

 

I never made any such assumption, I simply asked a question "was it an oversight or are you a fan". I suppose the way I worded the sentence could have been a bit simpler for you. However, saying that you could take a negative view either way if you were so inclined.

 

Quote/>I never said that all traders who are new, start because they want to make gazillions of $ just as I never said that all vendors bullshit. Trade what you see, not what you think <\Quote

 

No you didn't nor did I say you did. I said you inferred this in your rant, in this case I was quoting from your previous attack on the people who either thought of doing or did purchase a forex system or education. See 'Buy My Trading Strategy - It's Brilliant!!' (Last edited by TheNegotiator; 03-16-2012 at 10:29 AM.).

 

Given that you made this statement in your rant,

Quote/>The thing that perplexes and even annoys me is that there are people who seem to think they can spend a couple of $k on a system or training then they will be set and be the next gazillionaire Paul Tudor Jones style trader.

No offense, but wtf!? I don't get it. I really don't understand what an individual thinks they are likely to get without very much effort? <\Quote

 

And as most forex noobs have at one time or another during their early forex forays not only thought, the past tense of think, about buying education, if not an actual system, have even gone so far as to read on the pro's and cons of such education on various websites, with most only declining due to the costs involved. Then I believe I was correct in my assumption that it was your 'inference', they all wanted to be 'gadzillioniare style traders', which is quite different from 'you said'.

 

As you so finely stated, 'trade what you see, not what you think'. Gotta love the Americanism again, an aphorism with a little twist.

 

Finally, the question at the end of my original email, you seem to have found it difficult to answer, perhaps I should have presented it in such a way as there was only one answer as having an 'either/or' seems to have baffled you , that was not my intention.

 

Happy trading! and may all your losses be small.

 

PS be gentle with me :haha:

[SIUYA 11]

Your rants also seem to infer that most new traders come in to trading with the 'gonna make godzillions' mindset, but the vast majority come into the forex just to make a few extra dollars and maybe learn to trade as well, but if they do they'll be the lucky few.

 

Fred - this point I thought interesting, as from what I see most people go into trading - either thinking they will make gazillions OR just to make a few extra dollars, but all seem to underestimate the work involved, and usually it seems those that want to make gazillions are the ones most likely taken in by the BS....otherwise why start with $10,000 and think this will be the path the freedom and then spend $2000 of this on a system....

I figured the Neg was referring more to the BS vendors usually spout, even though it does refer to everyone.....

 

I leave you with this question? If you had a choice between making millions while being a bad, but lucky trader (no worries, you don't have to marry a dog-faced 6itch) or make pennies while being a good trader, which would you choose.

 

If you chose the latter, your not just in self-denial you're as thick as those who the rants are aimed at.

!

 

Choose lucky all the time that is why risk of ruin is important, you cant even have the opportunity to be lucky if you cant stay in the game. The smart ones who get lucky and big enough usually know they they got lucky and move on rather than persist and loose, the others give it back. (that old saying of old bold (or is it bald) traders....)

 

 

This should be obvious, but if not, let me make it explicit....a person who does this well, and has the ability to make money consistently....doesn't really need you (or this site)....ask youself why they might stick around and put up with all the negativity.....?

 

A...to recruit people?

 

Steve, yes there are people who can do it.....so it not just the blind leading the blind, but "a person who does this well, and has the ability to make money consistently....doesn't really need" to sell what they are doing either.

Of course it's a completely valid business model so maybe you could add to the negotiators BS - vendors who say they can trade profitably probably should also add that they sell their wares as it makes them more money to sell than trade ---- otherwise if being rational, they should either sell their ideas/system at a very inexpensive price or give it away for free, as they like to help (which does happen)..... or just up their size and not put up with the crap.....

[Obsidian 10]

3- Vendor Selling Techniques.

 

This includes baiting, false guarantees, poor rehashing of outdated tools and indicators. Blah, blah, blah. If someone said to you they'll teach you the secrets of alchemy for a couple of thousand bucks, what would you think? Go figure.

 

every forum got plenty of fake identities:roll eyes:

[TheRumpledOne 14]

ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT TRADING

 

* Price either goes up or down.

* No one knows what will happen next.

* Keep losses small and let winners run.

* POSITION SIZE = RISK / STOP LOSS.

* The reason you entered has no bearing on the outcome of your trade.

* You can control the size of your loss (skill) but you can't control the size of your win (luck).

* You need to know when to pick up your chips and cash them in.

 

Expectancy = (Probability of Win * Average Win) - (Probability of Loss * Average Loss)

 

You cannot control the probabilities of wining or losing.

 

You cannot control your average win size.

 

The only part of the equation of the equation that you can control is your average loss size.

 

PRICE ACTION

 

“Now, 2 patterns of market behavior happen on a regular basis:

 

1) the price breaks to new high's (or low's)

 

2) the price reverses from new high's (or low's)

 

They happen regardless of time frame (with the obvious limitations explained above)

 

They are phenomena that can be exploited without the fear if found out by others, that they might cease to exist.” - H. Rearden

 

1) Price will either breakout of the high, low or both of the previous bar

 

2) Price will not breakout of the previous bar.

 

You cannot reduce it any further. Anything else complicates the issue.

ENTERING A TRADE

 

You either decide to:

 

1) Wait and do not enter a trade

 

2) Trade a breakout

 

3) Trade a reversal.

 

Those are your ONLY 3 options.

 

That is all you need to know about trading.

[joshdance 10]

ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT TRADING

 

N, weren't you asking for a "Dislike" button the other day? How about a "Severely off-topic, vague, and generally broken record" button?

[cfrn 10]

Does anyone know if the EA/Robot programmer on LinkedIn accepts PayPal?

 

=)

[ckait 10]

There is alot of talk these days of how the algo hft robots are messing with every thing but most of what they do is only for milliseconds and thats it. (most of the time). now i dont know this for sure but thats they only way they could possibly have an edge unless all the computers were working together. you could think of the robots like the replacement to the local in the pit. they are there to provide liquidity and trading for ticks not 10 handles. this is based in my opinion only and there are no facts anywhere to support any of what Im saying but it is a good observation.

[karoshiman 10]

 

....a person who does this well, and has the ability to make money consistently....doesn't really need you (or this site)....ask youself why they might stick around and put up with all the negativity.....?

 

 

Such person might have no trading buddies to talk about their profession. I mean, it's different if you talk to your girlfriend/wife/friends of you who are not involved in trading albeit they might be interested to listen to you about your trading compared to people who are going through the same problems or experience the same success as you experience(d), even if they are not as experienced as you are.

 

In addition, it's cool if you can lend a helping hand.

 

Just two reasons that came to my mind...

 

 

PS: By the way, I enjoy your posts very much, Steve, also some of your older posts which I have read, although I'm on this forum for a short time yet.

[karoshiman 10]

How about this one:

 

 

YOU SHOULD TRADE ONLY WITH MONEY THAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE

 

 

I hate this one in particular!

 

This is so stupid. This implies, that such amount of money is not REALLY important to you. What happens, if you trade with money that is not really important to you, is that you will very probably lose it. If you trade with such mindset it becomes almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

At least I was there. I've started to trade with money that I can "afford to lose" and I've lost it all. Okay, it doesn't have to happen to everyone, but the likelihood of failure increases from my point of view.

 

I became profitable in my trading when I could NOT afford to lose my money anymore because I have to earn my living expenses. There might be a coincidence, of course, but I think it is more a matter of motivation.

[roztom 10]

How about this one:

 

 

YOU SHOULD TRADE ONLY WITH MONEY THAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE

 

 

I hate this one in particular!

 

This is so stupid. This implies, that such amount of money is not REALLY important to you. What happens, if you trade with money that is not really important to you, is that you will very probably lose it. If you trade with such mindset it becomes almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

At least I was there. I've started to trade with money that I can "afford to lose" and I've lost it all. Okay, it doesn't have to happen to everyone, but the likelihood of failure increases from my point of view.

 

I became profitable in my trading when I could NOT afford to lose my money anymore because I have to earn my living expenses. There might be a coincidence, of course, but I think it is more a matter of motivation.

 

 

I think that is about being able to seperate or insulate yourself from fear and also not putting yourself, family, etc at unnecessary risk.. How many people start a business and do not consider the potential of bankruptcy ? In this business you are on the line 100% with cash..you cannot get protection from bankruptcy laws or cut a deal with your clearing firm if you screw the pooch...

[roztom 10]

Deleted Duplicate Post..Opps

[Obsidian 10]

I think that is about being able to seperate or insulate yourself from fear and also not putting yourself, family, etc at unnecessary risk.. How many people start a business and do not consider the potential of bankruptcy ? In this business you are on the line 100% with cash..you cannot get protection from bankruptcy laws or cut a deal with your clearing firm if you screw the pooch...

 

I am sure trading for a living psychology is different than investment psychology. If trading is your only income, then things would be much more different

[steve46 12]

Such person might have no trading buddies to talk about their profession. I mean, it's different if you talk to your girlfriend/wife/friends of you who are not involved in trading albeit they might be interested to listen to you about your trading compared to people who are going through the same problems or experience the same success as you experience(d), even if they are not as experienced as you are.

 

In addition, it's cool if you can lend a helping hand.

 

Just two reasons that came to my mind...

 

 

PS: By the way, I enjoy your posts very much, Steve, also some of your older posts which I have read, although I'm on this forum for a short time yet.

 

Thanks for the kind words, and best of luck to you in the markets

 

and now back to my secret agenda "recruiting" unwitting amateurs (see post 12).......hahahaa

[pitrader 10]

Wouldn't this whole process of trading be much simpler if everybody would just follow my advice. Just buy stocks that go up. If they don't go up don't buy them!! And seeing as I am such a giving type of guy I will not charge you a cent for such pearls of wisdom. However if you would like to donate $29.99 to my PayPal account that would be appreciated .:

[smmatrix 11]

How about this one:

 

 

YOU SHOULD TRADE ONLY WITH MONEY THAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE

 

 

I hate this one in particular!

 

This is so stupid. This implies, that such amount of money is not REALLY important to you. What happens, if you trade with money that is not really important to you, is that you will very probably lose it. If you trade with such mindset it becomes almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

At least I was there. I've started to trade with money that I can "afford to lose" and I've lost it all. Okay, it doesn't have to happen to everyone, but the likelihood of failure increases from my point of view.

 

I became profitable in my trading when I could NOT afford to lose my money anymore because I have to earn my living expenses. There might be a coincidence, of course, but I think it is more a matter of motivation.

 

I don't think you're reading between the lines. What it really is saying is to NOT trade with money you can't afford to lose. If you do, you will surely lose, and I must agree.

 

If you play with the rent money, you have psychological disadvantage. You won't follow your rules, but you will follow your emotions.

 

You can win only if you trade with money you don't need.

 

If you NEED it, you're dead before you get started because scared money NEVER wins!