Buy My Trading Strategy - It's Brilliant!!

[jgiegerich 10]

I don't know who Don Jones is.

Should I know him?

You seem to worship him.

 

Don Jones teaches Market Profile. He was teaching this early on after Jim Dalton wrote and published his book on Market Profile Mind Over Markets; 1993.

[Tams 20]

Mia Culpa:

 

...

 

The point of this is not to knock vendors but to say it is all out there. However, you must align what is there to yourself.. this is no easy task since you will never truly know yourself and have any opportunity to succeed until you do..

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[joshdance 10]

What interests me in the mindset of a person who thinks it's a good idea to pay someone in this way

 

N, it's this simple: trading looks easy.

 

I am a dancer, and I observe the quite common opinion of others who aspire to become dancers: it looks easy, so it should take a few lessons, right? Well, little do they know the intricacy of the art, and do not realize that it takes many YEARS (and not just a few), to become a truly skilled and proficient dancer, and only if there is some semblance of innate ability to begin with. Replace dancing with any art or skill here, particularly one you are proficient in, and it should be clear that trading can be no different.

 

Yet, it seems easy, so $2500 should just about do it, right?

 

That's it in a nutshell, IMO.

[roztom 10]

N, it's this simple: trading looks easy.

 

I am a dancer, and I observe the quite common opinion of others who aspire to become dancers: it looks easy, so it should take a few lessons, right? Well, little do they know the intricacy of the art, and do not realize that it takes many YEARS (and not just a few), to become a truly skilled and proficient dancer, and only if there is some semblance of innate ability to begin with. Replace dancing with any art or skill here, particularly one you are proficient in, and it should be clear that trading can be no different.

 

Yet, it seems easy, so $2500 should just about do it, right?

 

That's it in a nutshell, IMO.

 

Josh: If there is a way to seperate the scammers from those of value it might be worth it... to accelerate learning..

 

If a newbie was realistic in their expectations and vendors were honest and marketed realistic expectations then it might be valuable...

 

However, marketing is just what it is - scent on a venus fly-trap.

 

..also human nature is that the desire to get to making $ quickly makes the individual think that they are different from other students and they will magically be profitable next month...

 

I do believe in education and there might be some vendors out there who can actually teach successful processes but being able to replicate is where most fail... outside of the Prop Shops who might invest in you, the retail trader has very limited options..

 

Maybe that has changed but I am not aware of it. Maybe a newbie can do research and seek reviews first, maybe a newbie can ask on a site like this and get some direction..

 

Information is available..maybe a newbie could get some giudance - if they only knew a truly succesful trader.. If someone asked me I'm not sure what I would tell them since, IMHO the psycology is ultimately where the alignment needs to take place - but learning that is a Catch-22.

 

I have former Floor Trader buddies who have made the transition to screen trader..we can sit together and look at similar things on our charts, see similar setups yet we cannot trade them the same way since both approaches vary by the psycological aspects... (age and focus is a factor also for me). I cannot trade a 20 - 50 lot ES for a point or 2.. my friend can... I can't replicate him but we both use very similar setups... He trades size and short high probability targets, all in / all out.

 

I can't do that but we are almost identical in our methodology and set ups...

 

Think about when we typically enter a valid setup how most initially go our way... not to get off topic but even for $2,500. or $25K and seeing him do it, and so can I - except for one reason. I can't psycologically do what he does... even if our charts & tools are almost identical.. Would anyone pay him $2,500, $5,000, $50,000? In a heartbeat.. who could replicate it? Probably nobody... Josh, you are on point..

Edited March 17, 2012 by roztom

[fajim2004 10]

Now heres a post I can really relate to. Spent tons of money through the years to get my

trading education. It was only in the last the few years that I actually became consistantly profitable. Now that I became profitable I now realize just how much I was held back getting

to where I am today by all these system sellers and promoters.

 

As for for people being suckered in by shady promoters, most people like myself are conditioned to believe that an education costs $$$$. If you want to learn a trade you need

to put in the time and effort and pay your dues. The problem with the Futures industry is

that there has never been and probably never will be an accredited school that teaches trading.

 

Mia Culpa:

 

When I started out in 1980 I bought every book - established a huge library,

 

1. Subscribed to various newsletter/advisories, Cycle trading, Seasonals, etc.

2. Purchased systems, bought black box systems (even from Bill Cruz before he started Omega Research of tradestation).

3. Took classical bar charting courses at CME (Cost $24) Invaluable!!

4. Purchased System Writer Plus and wrote trading systems - curve fitted, over optimized, walked forward..thought complexity trumped simplicity. (Not)

5. Subscribed to a trading system newsletters - Bought a few, useless except to deconstruct-- to learn.

6. Lagging indicators -studies, Gann, Elliott, Fractals, Fib's, Hurst, Market Profile

7. Worked with George Lane in 1980 -1982 with an Apple Computer who invented Stochastics - it was the Holy Grail (we thought) at the time - it wasn't in the public domain yet. (Wouldn't put it on my screen today)

8. Researched various oscillator configurations - thought the Holy Grail was just around the corner - didn't understand the flaws in lagging indicators. (Learned)

9. Attended several seminars - the most benificial by Pete Steidelmeir of Market Profile fame... Learned Auction Theory, couldn't use MP..abandoned it for years until Volume Profiles - ding, ding, ding.

10. Purchased tons of various latest & greatest software packages as they were released, etc, etc, etc. after being reviewed in Futures Mag.

 

Too many more to remember at the moment but been there, done that...

 

Many deadends... blew up several trading accounts.. lived through locked limit moves against me, margin calls and despair...

 

Trading at that time in the early 1980's was a mostly isolated profession - other than at the Exchange there was no way to be part of a community like we have today, there was no information available at your fingertips... the traders I knew at CBOT/CME were mostly floor traders, not even remotely similar to what we do.. nobody had the answers for a screen trader since when I started we barely had screens.. a quote machine was basically it.. a realtime Tic chart cost over $700/mo - in 1980!! a breakthrough - you had to run a phone line to Mass. to get data..I think it was ADP Comptrend.

 

There was no daytrading..it was positions, trend following. Swing Trading was aggressive..

 

Screen traders really didn't exist except in a corner of a room..the Exchange members thought I was out of my mind..we could not relate at all. (Actually they were right)

 

At the time, there really weren't any other ways to get an education and I did the best I could under the circumstances. Nobody was there to mentor me -

 

I was a hair late to be part of the Turtle Trading Group put together by Richard Dennis.. they had just stopped taking applications when I showed up - that might have helped -do you think?

 

Today, none of that is necessary..All the answers are right here and on the web... at your fingertips... and in yourself..

 

This journey has many components. It never stops being a continuing learning experience.. Today I am successful but there were many years I was not..

 

When someone asks me how to do this I can give them generic ideas but I can't give them a Plug & Play solution..I also cannot give them the tenacity and commitment it takes to make this into a business.. I cannot get them to bypass screen time..you can't buy someone elses experience.

 

I still post simple questions - about the basics..why?..I want to see if things have changed..they have not. It is all the same... sure there are slicker software packages packed with indicators - I admit to use a few... but very little... most are redundent - useless crap.. IMHO.

 

The point of this is not to knock vendors but to say it is all out there. However, you must align what is there to yourself.. this is no easy task since you will never truly know yourself and have any opportunity to succeed until you do..

[rforexdad 10]

Okay...I learnt Oracle thru books/experience/training

 

And I am sure that is true of any trade/skill

 

None of my teachers were bad....I am quite happy with their teachings

 

But in the Forex world ....there are really some known scamsters

who knowingly scam people.

 

Right ?

[YertleTurtle 10]

Here is my opinion. The only way to become a good trader is through study and hard work. Yes - there are some good a even cheap educators out there that really know what they are doing (Timothy Morge comes to mind). But in my experience the only way to develop confidence and a set of rules that work as a trader is through a lot of hard work.

 

What do I mean? Lets say in our efforts to learn we read or hear about a setup that sounds like it works well. Should we just start trading it? I don't think so. I think a good trader will do the following:

 

1 - test the setup. This means go through chart after chart and looking for the setup, calculating risk/reward, calculating win percentage and seeing how often the setup occurs.

 

2- refine the setup. See if you can improve upon the risk/reward or win percentage by creating filters to keep you out of the more marginal setups.

 

3 - find the setup in real time (if you have replay ability with your software this could really speed up the process

 

4 - write down formal rules that you will now follow for this setup or throw out the setup

 

When you have tracked the setup on at least a 1000 instances you will gain confidence and experience in the setup and will have added it to your toolbox. Anything else is lazy. Do your own homework and take ownership of your own results.

[MightyMouse 12]

N, it's this simple: trading looks easy.

 

I am a dancer, and I observe the quite common opinion of others who aspire to become dancers: it looks easy, so it should take a few lessons, right? Well, little do they know the intricacy of the art, and do not realize that it takes many YEARS (and not just a few), to become a truly skilled and proficient dancer, and only if there is some semblance of innate ability to begin with. Replace dancing with any art or skill here, particularly one you are proficient in, and it should be clear that trading can be no different.

 

Yet, it seems easy, so $2500 should just about do it, right?

 

That's it in a nutshell, IMO.

 

I am a testament to how difficult dancing is. If you saw me dance, you would question how or if I was ever able to get laid.

[duncanhoo 10]

Sorry - but there are good educators out there someone can learn from and significantly shortcut the learning curve. They are not hard to find either and I wont name them to avoid getting flamed (and wont even do it in PM).

 

What turned me around was comparing my current career to my trading. In my career I am quite successful. To get to that level i needed a degree and 10 + years working in my field with coworkers and managers that TAUGHT me the trade. In addition to that, once i began mentoring others, i got even better.

 

Same thing for trading - lots of education (paid or otherwise) and lots of practice working with colleagues and mentors to significantly shorten the learning curve and learn the right way to do it.

 

Without mentors in my current career, I sincerely doubt I would have achieved the success i have. I concluded that the same was likely true in my trading education. I have paid for education i found to be worthless and have paid for education that was not. Once I realized i needed a mentor and committed myself to that group i went from struggling to consistently profitable very quickly.

 

Now it wasnt the educator that was solely responsible for that, I was doing a lot of things correctly already - but that educator significantly accelerated my learning curve.

 

I also believe that instantly assuming an educator cant trade or is unprofitable is flawed logic. First, many people teach, mentor and educate because they enjoy the helping others succeed. Not every person is solely driven by financial reward (in fact most people are not).

 

Second, just like in any other career there are varying levels of success (traders that are profitable every month vs. every week vs. every day, etc.) and even the best traders can have very erratic earnings. It is perfectly reasonable (and justifiable) for a trader to seek additional compensation through mentoring/teaching to smooth out their personal earnings.

 

All of that said, unless you are willing to work hard (12+hours /day) and remain determined despite very bad days - you will likely not succeed - educator/mentor or not (note the same is true of many careers with high financial rewards).

[SunTrader 10]

Many valid points, especially:

 

.... It never stops being a continuing learning experience..

 

and

 

..... you can't buy someone elses experience.

[SunTrader 10]

Now heres a post I can really relate to. Spent tons of money through the years to get my

trading education. It was only in the last the few years that I actually became consistantly profitable. Now that I became profitable I now realize just how much I was held back getting

....

 

Use the quote bottom next time (lower right corner of post) so we can understand what is your words and what are the words of someone else. Thnx.

 

Also it helps for brevity and clarity to only quote (of a long post) only what is needed to get the point across.

[roztom 10]

I am a testament to how difficult dancing is. If you saw me dance, you would question how or if I was ever able to get laid.

 

MM: Not to encouage you to continue in this direction :rofl: but I spit coffee on my computer screen when I read your post... :missy:

Edited March 17, 2012 by roztom

[bobcollett 10]

Use the quote bottom next time (lower right corner of post) so we can understand what is your words and what are the words of someone else. Thnx.

 

Also it helps for brevity and clarity to only quote (of a long post) only what is needed to get the point across.

 

............... what "are" your words.............

regards

bobc

[SunTrader 10]

............... what "are" your words.............

regards

bobc

 

che "cosa sono" i vostri riguardi di parole ?

[zax1150 10]

" you can't buy someone elses experience." No but you can learn from it, unless you're incredibly opinionated or just plain thick.

 

I know a retired fund manager that has been conned into to mentoring after his ex-wife thoroughly reamed him in court :doh:

 

But he does not suffer fools, so there are some good ppl out there,

but the vast majority are just leeches, selling a service with zero knowledge/experience to back it up......

[roztom 10]

" you can't buy someone elses experience." No but you can learn from it, unless you're incredibly opinionated or just plain thick.

 

I know a retired fund manager that has been conned into to mentoring after his ex-wife thoroughly reamed him in court :doh:

 

But he does not suffer fools, so there are some good ppl out there,

but the vast majority are just leeches, selling a service with zero knowledge/experience to back it up......

 

Agree With you...

 

Sure... ask Tiger Woods how to play the game, you can learn from it... then go play..

 

Nobody is saying there aren't good people out there... just hope that whoever the newbie bets on is the real deal... one or two bad experiences, loss of capital and they are done... another statistic - join the happy 90-95% losers. It might take 6 months or a year..but done...they never had a chance.

 

Picking a coach/trainer/mentor is like picking a golf pro...are those skills transferable...assuming they have any value? There is no real trading school...where you enroll, do your course studies and graduate..otherwise let's just create a trading franchise... We could sell them for $100K and there would be almost no overhead... the open-ended ATM of trading riches..the line would never end..

 

Problem I've observed is that you can't mimic someone elses trade plan ..there lies the rub..

 

As far as the leeches, the dream merchants whether on Wall ST or Main St, just like any "investment" - disclaim and disclose and you can sell ice cubes to Eskimos (No offence to our Eskimo friends)..and that is the way the worm turns..

[TheNegotiator 13]

I would turn it around and ask if there has ever been a "professional" trader that paid more than $10 000 for trading education.

 

Didn't Gann used to sell trading courses for 5 figures? Not saying that made it good though.

 

 

Two points I thought of. I think that it's possible that often there are too many assumptions in trading. A teacher may want to teach but actually misses out a bunch of stuff which could be really important to a specific individual. Plus there's a chance if the teacher has been successful, they don't know why. They might be able to list different things they do, but might not properly rank them. Plus they might also teach what they want to be useful rather than what is. I can't remember who it was, but there a trader psychologist who was talking about the common factors of successful traders, taking out all the nuances of their methods.

 

The other point is about finances. A guy who wants to pay someone to teach them does not have the same finances in general as the teacher. Money management is one of the biggest aspects to success in trading and so pairing strategy with capital is obviously important. This is why if a firm(like with Dennis and the Turtles) teaches a method and backs you, there is a far better chance of success. However, the two are rarely seen together. Teachers teach, and prop shops back traders. Duh.

[cdcaveman 10]

Agree With you...

 

Sure... ask Tiger Woods how to play the game, you can learn from it... then go play..

 

.and that is the way the worm turns..

 

 

funny! my thoughts are.. Any super successful trader wouldn't see the point in putting up fancy websites to attract sucker betters they are already getting all their money in trading!

[roztom 10]

Here is my opinion. The only way to become a good trader is through study and hard work. Yes - there are some good a even cheap educators out there that really know what they are doing (Timothy Morge comes to mind). But in my experience the only way to develop confidence and a set of rules that work as a trader is through a lot of hard work.

 

What do I mean? Lets say in our efforts to learn we read or hear about a setup that sounds like it works well. Should we just start trading it? I don't think so. I think a good trader will do the following:

 

1 - test the setup. This means go through chart after chart and looking for the setup, calculating risk/reward, calculating win percentage and seeing how often the setup occurs.

 

2- refine the setup. See if you can improve upon the risk/reward or win percentage by creating filters to keep you out of the more marginal setups.

 

3 - find the setup in real time (if you have replay ability with your software this could really speed up the process

 

4 - write down formal rules that you will now follow for this setup or throw out the setup

 

When you have tracked the setup on at least a 1000 instances you will gain confidence and experience in the setup and will have added it to your toolbox. Anything else is lazy. Do your own homework and take ownership of your own results.

 

Tim Morge is a rare kind of guy...competent, professional and doesn't need a dime from anyone...

[roztom 10]

I had this thought along the lines of a Trading School/Franchise:

 

If it could be done - by now it would have... Many promote the idea of course but it doesn't exist...

 

Here's what would happen...you would design a trading template that is simple and learnable.. the software would adjust size, etc based on risk capital. It would be set up for the individual based on the metrics they would generate and adjust to market volatility and drawdown.. It would have a built-in scaling process and targeting mechanism...

 

You would be able to simulate it in replicated market conditions. You would drill, drill, drill..like a fighter pilot..you would develop unconscious competence and have to achieve a level of consistent proficiency & metrics before graduating to real $...

 

Can it be done ??

 

I believe success in trading is very intangible, intuitive possibly, reading the feel of the market..how price moves at a key area... nuance driven... understanding that when a market turns it will often come back and 1 tick the low, little things... which are really big... where do you learn that..how fast a market rejects a price... the difference between short covering and a new trend.., etc.

 

Can a system be successful...does anyone generate a full time income taking system trades - daytrading? Has anyone bought a off the shelf system, turned it on and cashed a regualr paycheck?

 

Has anyone purchased a system and succeeded? Please sound off...

 

Trading is shades of gray...BTW, gray is the color off to the right side of my screen.. :missy:

Edited March 17, 2012 by roztom

[Tams 20]

" you can't buy someone elses experience." No but you can learn from it, unless you're incredibly opinionated or just plain thick.

 

I know a retired fund manager that has been conned into to mentoring after his ex-wife thoroughly reamed him in court :doh:

 

But he does not suffer fools, so there are some good ppl out there,

but the vast majority are just leeches, selling a service with zero knowledge/experience to back it up......

 

certain things you can learn from others,

but not all.

 

For example,

If I were long and the market was going against me, when the opportunity prevails, I can reverse my position and go short.

This is a skill (ability) that comes with a particular knowledge about the market and its behavior. Not all the situations provide a reversal opportunity.

Now you can sit beside me and watch me trade; I can explain to you all my set ups and let you know my entry and drop dead points ahead of time. But when the shxt hits the fan, some people will freeze in disbelieve, some people will wait (lose more) then exit, some people can exit immediately and take a small loss, but burden with guilt that they cannot do anything else for days. Only a few can exit and reverse. I can tell you all the theories of stop-and-reverse, but this is "experience" you cannot not buy from others.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Tams

[zax1150 10]

I had this thought along the lines of a Trading School/Franchise:

 

we have them in the UK & they are a complete con

[zax1150 10]

Unfortunately there is a wealth of misinformation in the market,

 

Tam I find following trending is the easy part, as its usually good for 200pips a day

 

however it does get uncomfortable @ 10 lots a pip :missy:

[khamore1 10]

It is scientifically proven statement: “anything that two people can do” (including trading) you can teach other people to do….But that doesn’t guarantee to be me LOL

[Tams 20]

It is scientifically proven statement: “anything that two people can do” (including trading) you can teach other people to do….But that doesn’t guarantee to be me LOL

 

some truth to it,

and some misinformation.

 

 

the fact is, no two people trade alike.

 

 

 

but that is not total lost.

 

you can make the $600k back (and more),

 

 

there is only one thing you need to do -- don't repeat what you did wrong.