John Carter's Setups: Legit or Lame?

[bakrob99 11]

The implication is that he is doing this for the Trading Room revenue - which I do not believe is the case. The guy has traded for over 20 years and loves trading as an activity. Period. He will always be a trader.

 

What has one (revenue source) got to do with the other?

 

He makes a considerable amount from both activities.

[Guest cooter]

Trading room revenue provides ample capital to fuel his trading activities. So what? Do I care? Not in the least.

[BlowFish 10]

The implication is that he is doing this for the Trading Room revenue - which I do not believe is the case.

 

---Snip---

 

I wonder what this belief is based on? Just interested from a purely academic point of view. I will always give the benefit of the doubt unless something clashes with my own market beliefs which are based on "truths" I have discovered or verified for myself. Having said that I still keep keep a healthy degree of scepticism untill I can verify things.

 

You seem pretty adamant and I just wondered what made you feel this way. PM me or ignore my question if you don't feel its appropriate for here.

[bakrob99 11]

It's pretty simple - I've "watched" him trade for one year ... and I've seen brokerage statements which support my statement,

[tony1d 10]

I think the book had a lot of valuable information however using his setups purely as discussed in the book yielded poor results. I do use a 3 bar reversal setup but only at key S/R areas like pivots, yest H/L/C and value areas from the MP. I also will not countertrend trade those unless a trend reversal is almost definite and finally i am very careful about trading in the value areas as the locals are scalping you to death in there. Watch the locals test the High and low value ranges looking for takers at the 1/2 hour especially in the mornings if no takers they will typically test the opposite range.

[notouch 10]

Be realistic people. A trader is by definition someone motivated by money. If he was the charitable type are there not more worthy causes than wannabe traders? Of course he's in it for the money. I don't know and don't care how much profit he makes from his trading but I don't believe anyone would hand out their brokerage statements for other people to inspect.

[jbtrades 10]

Hubert told everyone in the trading room that his income breakdown is about 50% from the "education business", and 50% from trading. I think Carter's ratio is probably about the same. There is nothing wrong with that, but they are not running trading room to be good samaritans.

[walterw 10]

My opinion is this : they are very good traders with sound concepts some of their own other borrowed, and they have a vocation to teach and relate with people (its a life style), at the same time make some more money... no sin... I learned a lot from them thought their entries are kinda late... would suggest them try some cci entries jejejeje I personally like how they teach internals... thought actually I am not using them... cheers Walter.

[Guest TRex]

Be realistic people. A trader is by definition someone motivated by money. If he was the charitable type are there not more worthy causes than wannabe traders? Of course he's in it for the money. I don't know and don't care how much profit he makes from his trading but I don't believe anyone would hand out their brokerage statements for other people to inspect.

 

Good point. If one is going to manage other people's money, than providing audited brokerage statements would be a prerequisite. CTA's who manage hedge funds are required by law to do this. Otherwise, the legal liability and implied representations by showing trading statements is not worth the risk for those in the educational business. That is, you're inviting lawsuits; and the fees one earns from teaching don't outweigh the risk from disgruntled students who assumed their performance would be similiar to the teacher.

 

Anyway, it is well known in the industry Carter makes most of his income from risk free fee based services, not trading. His managed trading track record in the last couple of years has been subpar.

[Reaver 10]

I said in other posts that if one were truly wanting to help others, they wouldn't charge for it...simply put, if I had made an ungodly amount of money in the markets and was still consistent..in the unlikely event I would disclose all my trade secrets and be truly philanthropic.....I wouldn't charge money...I would be making plenty of money from trading.....money from students would be a drop in the bucket..if I truly wanted my students to succeed I wouldn't be charging them tons of money for lessons..I would be encouraging them to build as much capital as possible.

 

I donate a bunch of time to the humane society in my area, and I don't charge them for it...why? because I truly have an interest in the animals being treated humanely...no ulterior motives....I don't sell them discounted services.. (**"well, yes Mr Humane society director, I normally charge $40 an hour, but since I want to see your animals treated humanely, I will only charge $20"**)....nope I do it for free, because I am a volunteer and have a true interest in furthering my cause in an unselfish way.

 

I am all for discussion of trading and helping each other out free....but seriously, no one in their right mind is going to give away their trade secrets...

 

Same way the casinos do..they'll teach you to play cards...but you aren't going to learn anything of substance from them.

 

The amount of money a trading edge is worth is actually priceless.....but it is surely worth more than any normal person could afford....It would be like me selling you a Porsche or $20....(rough comparison-lol but you get the point...it just doesn't make sense to do that).

 

People don't readily train others to compete with them.

[Guest TRex]

I said in other posts that if one were truly wanting to help others, they wouldn't charge for it...simply put, if I had made an ungodly amount of money in the markets and was still consistent..in the unlikely event I would disclose all my trade secrets and be truly philanthropic.....I wouldn't charge money...I would be making plenty of money from trading.....money from students would be a drop in the bucket..if I truly wanted my students to succeed I wouldn't be charging them tons of money for lessons..I would be encouraging them to build as much capital as possible.

 

I donate a bunch of time to the humane society in my area, and I don't charge them for it...why? because I truly have an interest in the animals being treated humanely...no ulterior motives....I don't sell them discounted services.. (**"well, yes Mr Humane society director, I normally charge $40 an hour, but since I want to see your animals treated humanely, I will only charge $20"**)....nope I do it for free, because I am a volunteer and have a true interest in furthering my cause in an unselfish way.

 

I am all for discussion of trading and helping each other out free....but seriously, no one in their right mind is going to give away their trade secrets...

 

Same way the casinos do..they'll teach you to play cards...but you aren't going to learn anything of substance from them.

 

The amount of money a trading edge is worth is actually priceless.....but it is surely worth more than any normal person could afford....It would be like me selling you a Porsche or $20....(rough comparison-lol but you get the point...it just doesn't make sense to do that).

 

People don't readily train others to compete with them.

 

Donating free time for charity is much different than running a for profit business.

 

I would submit that teaching others a consistent trading edge for a fee has real value but not at any price. There is an inflection point at which the market--meaning the universe of potential students--wouldn't pay. Call it sticker shock for lack of a better term. And teaching someone your "secrets" doesn't mean they will have the same success as you. Successful trading entails more than learning setups--one has to learn to think like a trader and overcome many psychological obstacles, and many people have a great difficulty with that aspect. Most professionals will tell you that successfull trading is 80% psychogical and 20% execution.

 

With regard to teaching people to compete with them, in a highly fluid and liquid market like ES, this is really not an issue if the folks being taught are not very large block traders.

[Reaver 10]

I'm just sayin'.

 

....My point was that why would someone run a for-profit business when they make so much more at actually doing what they are teaching?

 

If I made a million dollars selling cars, Im not going to go out there beating the streets to drum up some clients to teach how to sell cars...there is no way that the time spent peddling my wares would be worth the time/money I'd lose from not just selling the cars in the first place.

 

But hey, maybe I am just crazy, it is a possibility.

[Guest TRex]

I'm just sayin'.

 

....My point was that why would someone run a for-profit business when they make so much more at actually doing what they are teaching?

 

If I made a million dollars selling cars, Im not going to go out there beating the streets to drum up some clients to teach how to sell cars...there is no way that the time spent peddling my wares would be worth the time/money I'd lose from not just selling the cars in the first place.

 

But hey, maybe I am just crazy, it is a possibility.

 

And what I'm saying is it's not difficult to both trade and teach; after all, you're in front of the screen anyway and there long periods throught the day with "downtime" when the market is chopping or trading is very slow.

 

The passive income from teaching can be substantial by the way. Think of it as becoming vertically integrated whereby you can increase your profit margin at little additional cost. In this case, we're simply talking about a small amount of added time and the Internet provides a great vehicle to accomplish this.

[Reaver 10]

And what I'm saying is it's not difficult to both trade and teach; after all, you're in front of the screen anyway and there long periods throught the day with "downtime" when the market is chopping or trading is very slow.

 

The passive income from teaching can be substantial by the way. Think of it as becoming vertically integrated whereby you can increase your profit margin at little additional cost. In this case, we're simply talking about a small amount of added time and the Internet provides a great vehicle to accomplish this.

 

Oh I am sure it can be profitable. Of that, I am sure, or else so many people wouldn't do that instead of trade.

 

Why wouldn't one just trade on a larger scale and double their income instead of making peanuts (relative to their supposed trading profits)?

 

If the market is so large where it doesn't matter how many people trade the same way as you, then why not just double/triple/quadruple your trade sizes and go buy an island or helicopter or something with your newfound wealth?

 

Surely with the amount of money you could make from doubling or tripling your income since you already trade so well as to teach others, could even go into something as weak as a CD at 4-5%, (much less trading a few CEF's on the side) and the interest would be plenty as passive income....much more than some peasant young trader paying for lessons.

[Guest TRex]

I'm just sayin'.

 

....My point was that why would someone run a for-profit business when they make so much more at actually doing what they are teaching?

 

If I made a million dollars selling cars, Im not going to go out there beating the streets to drum up some clients to teach how to sell cars...there is no way that the time spent peddling my wares would be worth the time/money I'd lose from not just selling the cars in the first place.

 

But hey, maybe I am just crazy, it is a possibility.

 

And what I'm saying is it's not difficult to both trade and teach; after all, you're in front of the screen anyway and there long periods throughout the day with "downtime" when the market is chopping or trading is very slow.

 

The passive income from teaching can be substantial by the way. Think of it as becoming vertically integrated whereby you can increase your profit margin at little additional cost. In this case, we're simply talking about a small amount of added time and the Internet provides a great vehicle to accomplish this.

[Guest TRex]

Oh I am sure it can be profitable. Of that, I am sure, or else so many people wouldn't do that instead of trade.

 

Why wouldn't one just trade on a larger scale and double their income instead of making peanuts (relative to their supposed trading profits)?

 

If the market is so large where it doesn't matter how many people trade the same way as you, then why not just double/triple/quadruple your trade sizes and go buy an island or helicopter or something with your newfound wealth?

 

Surely with the amount of money you could make from doubling or tripling your income since you already trade so well as to teach others, could even go into something as weak as a CD at 4-5%, (much less trading a few CEF's on the side) and the interest would be plenty as passive income....

 

One reason not to increase your size is that you don't want to increase your risk tolerance. Personally, the thought of trading much more than 32 ES contracts is uncomfortable.

[Reaver 10]

I guess its relative to your account size.......to some, trading 3-4 contracts is too much risk...but if I were some big shot treader..I probably wouldn't really be too worried about 32 contracts.....

 

Risk tolerance is based on the size of your account right?

[Guest TRex]

I guess its relative to your account size.......to some, trading 3-4 contracts is too much risk...but if I were some big shot treader..I probably wouldn't really be too worried about 32 contracts.....

 

Risk tolerance is based on the size of your account right?

 

My risk tolerance is based on a psychological comfort level that I don't want to exceed, not on the size of my liquidity, net worth or size of account.

 

I'm not looking to buy a helicopter and a villa on an exclusive island so there is no need to press the contract size and thus the risk with a commenserate rise in anxiety. So I guess that puts me out of the big shot trader league, but I'm not complaining.

 

A successful trader can make a very good living consistently winning 2 points per day on 32 contracts.

 

Anyway, we're getting off topic here so if you care to continue the dialogue, email or pm me.

[Reaver 10]

No I have heard about all I'd care to at this point. Thanks for the offer though.

[doughayman 10]

Hi everyone,

 

My first post on this board. Although a couple years late to this thread, I found Carter's book extremely interesting, easy-to-read, and chock-full-of-information. I've backtested and attempted to trade several of his plays, all to no avail. I think that there is more than meets the eye. His plays are certainly not the Holy Grail, but I guess, should be used as a basis for developing a sound trading system.

 

In any event, best to all trading !

[Tams 20]

...I've backtested and attempted to trade several of his plays, all to no avail. ...

 

 

have you heard of the saying...

 

those who don't learn from their lessons are condamned to repeat them.

 

 

(or something like that)

[dandxg 10]

Hi everyone,

 

My first post on this board. Although a couple years late to this thread, I found Carter's book extremely interesting, easy-to-read, and chock-full-of-information. I've backtested and attempted to trade several of his plays, all to no avail. I think that there is more than meets the eye. His plays are certainly not the Holy Grail, but I guess, should be used as a basis for developing a sound trading system.

 

In any event, best to all trading !

 

I guess you haven't seen his free video where he says discretion trades never back test well.

 

I think his general ideas such as using market internals are sound. His overpriced indicators are BS. I have never traded his set ups knowingly. Sure I have used fibs, they are ok, but mostly self fulfilling prophecy.

[dandxg 10]

have you heard of the saying...

 

those who don't learn from their lessons are condamned to repeat them.

 

 

(or something like that)

 

Borat, you are classic Tams, itsa very nice! I am always striving for the highest level of objectivity. A trader I talk to from time to time posed this question. If back testing was as bad as they say then how can traders come up with trading ideas, since they are based off of looking at historical data. Sure I understand the benefits of forward testing over back but the world is grey, not so black and white.

[TimRacette 11]

I think there is a lot of subconscious analysis that goes on aside from the system itself, "Trader Intuition." To be able to fully pass along a system and have it function with someone else behind the wheel is pretty difficult, if not impossible without making at least slight changes.

[Predictor 11]

@Tim Good insight.

 

I honestly think John and Hubert are 100% focused on selling crap. This was my impression from being in their room during a trial period, watching their videos, etc.

 

If you can't produce trade statements (or you make it clear you trade sim) then you have no business offering education. Also, if you don't show your performance then how the heck am I too know that your methods are worthwhile enough for me? I don't and I cant.

 

The people who believe they can't show statements because of rules are gullible and weak.

 

Having said this, let me say that part of getting a sale is getting the buyer pumped up and confident. If you find they help with your motivation then that might be worth something. You may also get basic public domain information from the free stuff they offer too.