Tradestation Vs Multicharts

[Tasuki 10]

Tradestation has given me notice that they won't be supporting my favorite version of their software, the old version 8.7 (later versions suck). So, I'm considering where to go, and I heard somewhere that I might be able to import my Tradestation indicators into Multicharts. Is this true? If anyone knows, please gimme some advice here. How similar is Multicharts to Tradestation? Are there any major disadvantages to Multicharts?

Thanks,

Tasuki

[Tams 20]

Tradestation has given me notice that they won't be supporting my favorite version of their software, the old version 8.7 (later versions suck). So, I'm considering where to go, and I heard somewhere that I might be able to import my Tradestation indicators into Multicharts. Is this true? If anyone knows, please gimme some advice here. How similar is Multicharts to Tradestation? Are there any major disadvantages to Multicharts?

Thanks,

Tasuki

 

you can import most of the Tradestation indicators into MultiCharts.

 

"most" means not 100%.

 

it is easier to import TS indicators into MC than the other way around,

because MC has added a host of new keywords that are not available in TS.

eg. sub-minute analysis keywords.

 

some indicators might need minor adjustments.

eg. if the indicator has multiple plots, MC would place plot1 at the lowest layer, while TS would place plot1 at the highest layer.

[UrmaBlume 10]

Tradestation has given me notice that they won't be supporting my favorite version of their software, the old version 8.7 (later versions suck). So, I'm considering where to go, and I heard somewhere that I might be able to import my Tradestation indicators into Multicharts. Is this true? If anyone knows, please gimme some advice here. How similar is Multicharts to Tradestation? Are there any major disadvantages to Multicharts?

Thanks,

Tasuki

 

The newer versions of TS include very useful object oriented programming. I am very curious to know what you can do in 8.7 that you can not do in 9.1, or what 8.7 does different from 9.1.

 

The new versions are faster, have made moves towards multi-threading and as far as I know contain all the features of the older versions plus some powerful new features - could you please be more specific in why you say the newer versions "suck."

 

UB

[Tasuki 10]

The newer versions of TS include very useful object oriented programming. I am very curious to know what you can do in 8.7 that you can not do in 9.1, or what 8.7 does different from 9.1.

 

The new versions are faster, have made moves towards multi-threading and as far as I know contain all the features of the older versions plus some powerful new features - could you please be more specific in why you say the newer versions "suck."

 

UB

 

UB,

 

The problem with the newer versions of TS is that they try to be all things to all people. There's a stock scanner which I don't need, and an options platform I don't need, and a Forex platform I don't need, and even an order entry form I don't need [smart scalpers never use TS for order entry], and heaven knows what other crap they've tacked onto their already-massive program. With all of these "appendages" to their charting software, it's quite understandable that their charting software crashes alot. Admittedly, with 12 monitors, 15 workspaces, dozens of charts and more than a hundred indicators, I do push Tradestation more than most people. So, if TS works for you, then great---you're not pushing it, but the older version, 8.7, works just fine, no matter how hard you push it. I'm not the only one---lots of people have complained about the later versions of Tradestation.

Here's a link:

https://community.tradestation.com/Discussions/Topic.aspx?Topic_ID=98851&PAGE=3򔫺

Not sure if you can use that link, but if you can, it takes you to a thread within Tradestation's forum in which users are complaining about TS 8.8 (and 9.0 and 9.1) crashing so hard that it locks up their computer. As a result, Tradestation engineers created a "killscript" (a batch file) to manually shut down Tradestation. That is a stupid way to put a bandaid over the problem (and the killscript doesn't actually work, either). What they SHOULD have done is to take the advice of many users (myself included) and create multiple versions of the software, including one version for futures traders which is "stripped down", meaning that the scanner, the options garbage, the forex garbage and all that nonsense is removed. If Tradestation were really on the ball, they'd create customized versions for options traders, forex traders, stock traders, and futures traders, but they're not that bright, apparently.

 

So, the bottom line is that the newer versions, anything beyond 8.7, suck because they crash, and crash hard. When 9.1 came out, I thought maybe they'd finally gotten their act together, so I installed it, only to find that it crashed hard (froze my computer) within 2 days of using it. I called tech support, and the poor, exhausted tech on the phone said that he'd received so many complaints about 9.1 that he recommended just deleting it and going back to 8.7. I did so, and about a week later I got this message that Tradestation was discontinuing 8.7, hence my desire to find a different charting package.

 

For the record, multi-threading would be a good thing if they could actually get it to work. For the record, computer programming in general is a gimic that is useful only for people who don't know how to trade. It will waste your time and it won't help you make money if you don't already know how to trade. It will, however, provide thousands of hours of programming fun, if that's what you really like to do.

 

Tasuki

Edited March 9, 2012 by Tasuki

[Tasuki 10]

you can import most of the Tradestation indicators into MultiCharts.

 

"most" means not 100%.

 

it is easier to import TS indicators into MC than the other way around,

because MC has added a host of new keywords that are not available in TS.

eg. sub-minute analysis keywords.

 

some indicators might need minor adjustments.

eg. if the indicator has multiple plots, MC would place plot1 at the lowest layer, while TS would place plot1 at the highest layer.

 

 

Thanks, Tams. Sounds "do-able". My indicators are just the basic ones, slightly tweaked but not re-programmed.

The best part of Tradestation (and the reason I've stayed with them this long) is because their architecture of charts within workspaces within desktops, is miles ahead of other charting packages.

*Does Multicharts have a similar architecture?*

Tx,

Tasuki

[Tams 20]

Thanks, Tams. Sounds "do-able". My indicators are just the basic ones, slightly tweaked but not re-programmed.

The best part of Tradestation (and the reason I've stayed with them this long) is because their architecture of charts within workspaces within desktops, is miles ahead of other charting packages.

*Does Multicharts have a similar architecture?*

Tx,

Tasuki

 

MC pretty well started as a copy of TS, but have evolved. The charts within workspaces are the same. You can download a 30 days free trial to test out your indicators.

 

You will find MC runs a bit faster, because it uses all the cores of a multi-core CPU, while TS is only multi-threaded.

[UrmaBlume 10]

I am using TS9.0 with Windows 7, 64 and have experienced none of the "crash" issues you mention. I am a TS add-on developer and easy language specialist, our apps make great demands on TS and we have none of the difficulties you mention.

 

Multi-charts is a TS knock-off done by some of the same Russian developers that worked on TS. They have no object orientated programming without which system automation is primitive at best.

 

The new TS Order, Price Series and Position objects are the first to make a FIX like protocol available to retail traders.

 

All that is not to mention the data. TS offers 6 mos of tick data and decades of data in 1 minute and up time frames which is more than any vendor that supplies MC and the data is cleaner.

 

But then again all of that means nothing when your position is as stated below that programming/software is "in general a gimic."

 

UB,............For the record, computer programming in general is a gimic that is useful only for people who don't know how to trade. ...........

Tasuki

 

LOL - Tell that to those at Goldman and at Renaissance

 

We disagree and believe that "Success in the markets is not about instinct, divine inspiration or spontaneous intellectual combustion. It is about intelligent data processing, sound method and the management of risk and resource that is both effective and adaptive to change."

 

 

 

UrmaBlume

[onesmith 10]

The latest version of Tradestation uses all cores of a multi-core cpu. It's data transmission protocal has been totaly rewritten and it rocks.

[Tasuki 10]

The latest version of Tradestation uses all cores of a multi-core cpu. It's data transmission protocal has been totaly rewritten and it rocks.

 

Onesmith, if it's so good, how come their tech support is (according to them) inundated with crash reports on 9.1?

[onesmith 10]

I don't have any information to answer your question in it's specfic sense as it relates to tradestation. My perception of the typical users hardware and software complaints, in general, and unrelated to tradestation ... is the typical person who needs tech support is either easily hepled and easily satisfied or there's no way they can ever be helped or ever be satisfied. And the loudest users are those that are dissatisfied.

 

Onesmith, if it's so good, how come their tech support is (according to them) inundated with crash reports on 9.1?

[Tams 20]

The latest version of Tradestation uses all cores of a multi-core cpu.

 

according to their news release, the new TS version is multi-threaded, but not yet multi-cored.

The new multi-thread would make TS run a bit faster than the previous non-multi-thread version.

 

I might be wrong, after all, multi-core is not new, they should have this done a long time ago.

 

I know people have tested it side by side with MultiCharts, and it is still slower than MultiCharts.

You can take a screen shot of the taskmanager, it will show you whether TS is running multi-core or not.

 

 

 

 

It's data transmission protocal has been totaly rewritten and it rocks.

 

Why would they want to do that ???? Tradestation has the better data management system of all the charting software on the market.

[onesmith 10]

The new version is multi-cored.

 

The data transmission changes are seamless in that it didn't require any effort on my part because it functions the same as previous versions but I know it's an extensive change over what it was. It's awesome. My use of the word protocol wasn't intended to mean there were any changes in the manner in which users access data but rather in the technology that sends and receives the data.

[appleinvestor 10]

UB,

 

The problem with the newer versions of TS is that they try to be all things to all people. There's a stock scanner which I don't need, and an options platform I don't need, and a Forex platform I don't need, and even an order entry form I don't need [smart scalpers never use TS for order entry], and heaven knows what other crap they've tacked onto their already-massive program. With all of these "appendages" to their charting software, it's quite understandable that their charting software crashes alot. Admittedly, with 12 monitors, 15 workspaces, dozens of charts and more than a hundred indicators, I do push Tradestation more than most people.

 

Tasuki

 

You are incorrect in your assessment. I am a far heavier user of TradeStation than you are judging by your stated usage. And My Analysis Techniques usage tax TS to the limits. The key is the computing platform that you're using.

 

If you're truly serious about trading then you'll invest in the best possible platform. The new TS 9.1 takes advantage of it and is quite stable. My minimum system has 16 cores with 16 GB Ram, the fastest processor available with Solid State drives and RAID backup.

 

Admittedly TS 9.1 isn't all it could be, but it is a better charting and automated systems engine than anything else out there in its price class.

[Aston01 10]

The new version is multi-cored.

 

The data transmission changes are seamless in that it didn't require any effort on my part because it functions the same as previous versions but I know it's an extensive change over what it was. It's awesome. My use of the word protocol wasn't intended to mean there were any changes in the manner in which users access data but rather in the technology that sends and receives the data.

 

Lets clarify this comment as it isn't 100% accurate.

 

TradeStation's charts support multiple cores which allow the workload of each chart to be off loaded on to different cores in a round robin fashion.

 

...but where most people seem to be truly salivating for multicore functionality is in backtesting, and this currently is not multicore.

 

So if you are running 12 monitors and 15 workspaces like the guy that started this thread then the newer version of TS with multicore support probably is of some benefit.

 

But if you are looking to back test all kinds of wild concepts with your new 8 core, Overclocked, Liquid Nitrogen cooled system w/ it's 24GB of Ram & 1TB Raid 0 SSD configuration ...you may be disappointed to see 1 core pegged in your task manager and the other 7 floating around basically at idle.

[onesmith 10]

Aston01, thank you for correcting that.

 

Tams, he's right about the backtesting still being limited to a single core.

 

 

Lets clarify this comment as it isn't 100% accurate.

 

TradeStation's charts support multiple cores which allow the workload of each chart to be off loaded on to different cores in a round robin fashion.

 

...but where most people seem to be truly salivating for multicore functionality is in backtesting, and this currently is not multicore.

 

So if you are running 12 monitors and 15 workspaces like the guy that started this thread then the newer version of TS with multicore support probably is of some benefit.

 

But if you are looking to back test all kinds of wild concepts with your new 8 core, Overclocked, Liquid Nitrogen cooled system w/ it's 24GB of Ram & 1TB Raid 0 SSD configuration ...you may be disappointed to see 1 core pegged in your task manager and the other 7 floating around basically at idle.

[smmatrix 11]

About three years ago, I considered a move to MultiCharts from Tradestation. Worse experiment I ever made. What a huge gigantic failure. First off, only about 25% of my custom indicators imported. Those with functions had a 100% failure rate, and those without functions was a crap shoot with about 50/50 probability of successful transfer.

 

I kept on trying to work with MultiCharts, but was sorely disappointed in multiple ways. The screen graphics and GUI totally sucked. Other problems arose, but I finally threw in the towel after trying to make it work for about a month.

 

I also resisted the move to Tradestion 9, but glad I finally made the move. Like the other posts pointed out, multithreading has greatly improved. It's fast and stable. I'm running several hundred charts at the same time so I notice these things. I've been with Tradestation since the late 80's and we always stayed one or two releases behind the latest for stability.

 

Anyway, I'm very happy with Tradestation 9. It has a few quarks, but easily over looked or ignored. Tradestation has always had lots of modules, optionstation, radarscreen, etc etc, so I don't understand your beef at this point with all the extras.

 

IMHO, Tradestation will always be the superior platform... by far!!

[Tasuki 10]

About three years ago, I considered a move to MultiCharts from Tradestation. Worse experiment I ever made. What a huge gigantic failure. First off, only about 25% of my custom indicators imported. Those with functions had a 100% failure rate, and those without functions was a crap shoot with about 50/50 probability of successful transfer.

 

I kept on trying to work with MultiCharts, but was sorely disappointed in multiple ways. The screen graphics and GUI totally sucked. Other problems arose, but I finally threw in the towel after trying to make it work for about a month.

 

I also resisted the move to Tradestion 9, but glad I finally made the move. Like the other posts pointed out, multithreading has greatly improved. It's fast and stable. I'm running several hundred charts at the same time so I notice these things. I've been with Tradestation since the late 80's and we always stayed one or two releases behind the latest for stability.

 

Anyway, I'm very happy with Tradestation 9. It has a few quarks, but easily over looked or ignored. Tradestation has always had lots of modules, optionstation, radarscreen, etc etc, so I don't understand your beef at this point with all the extras.

 

IMHO, Tradestation will always be the superior platform... by far!!

 

Thanks, smmatrix,

Now this is news I can use. Sadly, I was hoping to make the move to Multicharts seamlessly, but now I'll have to investigate Multicharts more carefully. Drat it, but thanks for the heads up.

With all the negative feedback I've heard about Tradestation from my trader friends who are users (and mostly former users), I am extremely surprised by the positive comments that we've seen in this thread. Almost makes me wonder if the glowing reviews aren't being posted by TS employees or moles within Traders Lab. Sorry guys if this sounds offensive, but honestly, in my 13+ years of trading I have never heard so many people praise Tradestation so unequivocally. Just a bit odd, and it makes me scratch my head in wonder.

Tasuki

[appleinvestor 10]

Thanks, smmatrix,

...Sorry guys if this sounds offensive, but honestly, in my 13+ years of trading I have never heard so many people praise Tradestation so unequivocally. Just a bit odd, and it makes me scratch my head in wonder.

Tasuki

 

It is not unusual for people who cannot turn a profit (losers) to find anything but themselves as the underlying reason for their problems.

 

And I'm sure I'll get blasted for this statement, but the undeniable fact is that 90% of ALL traders lose, 5% break even, and 5% make money. That includes everyone on this board...you know who you are.

 

I used to be a loser and would try to blame everything other than my own ignorance, lack of preparation, no quantifiable or definable edge, and poor discipline. So I speak from experience.

[smmatrix 11]

Thanks, smmatrix,

Now this is news I can use. Sadly, I was hoping to make the move to Multicharts seamlessly, but now I'll have to investigate Multicharts more carefully. Drat it, but thanks for the heads up.

With all the negative feedback I've heard about Tradestation from my trader friends who are users (and mostly former users), I am extremely surprised by the positive comments that we've seen in this thread. Almost makes me wonder if the glowing reviews aren't being posted by TS employees or moles within Traders Lab. Sorry guys if this sounds offensive, but honestly, in my 13+ years of trading I have never heard so many people praise Tradestation so unequivocally. Just a bit odd, and it makes me scratch my head in wonder.

Tasuki

 

Seriously, Tradestation is a superior platform. Personally, I have never liked their brokerage and that may be the complaints you're hearing, because I have never heard anyone complain about Tradestation charting. I have seen and used other platforms such as eSignal, ThinkorSwim, Multicharts, Sierra Charts and none of those hold a candle Tradestations abilities. For example, when I write a new indicator, I often write a a script with it and test probabilities over 10 years of 1-min candles. I believe that is about 11 million total candles. What other platform will allow me to write, test my code to this degree? I'm a statistical trader, so these numbers are important for the way I trade.

 

But, besides backtesting capability, just the look and feel of the Tradestation platform really feels like real trading to me. I'm sorry, but that other stuff, java based charts seems toy'ish to me, but this is probably because I've used the platform since 1989.

 

Regarding Tradestation moles, I don't think you'll find any here. LOL. Tradestation does not allow any of its sales reps to work the forums.

 

Best of trading success to you!

[appleinvestor 10]

Seriously, Tradestation is a superior platform. Personally, I have never liked their brokerage and that may be the complaints you're hearing, because I have never heard anyone complain about Tradestation charting. I have seen and used other platforms such as eSignal, ThinkorSwim, Multicharts, Sierra Charts and none of those hold a candle Tradestations abilities...

Best of trading success to you!

 

I too am a statistical trader, using a mean reversion strategy trading futures with Statistical Arbitrage, and I have also tried the same platform as you. I'm compelled to support the other platforms, like Sierra Charts, and ToS, because members of my Trade Room have committed to their platform. But the support I can offer is limited due to the inferior charting and indicator support compared to TS.

[electroniclocal 10]

I run both TS and MC, as well as a few other platforms. I was a user of TS since the very early days of the 1990's.

 

MC is much, much faster than TS in Optimisation. TS has historical data, MC needs 3rd party historical data. The newest 64bit MC allows almost unlimited ticks historically. The amount of RAM you have is your limit. I get load failures on TS with complex strategies and trying to optimise over lots of tick data.

 

I predominantly use MC for my trading.

 

Each has pluses and minuses so choosing what features are dealbrakers for you will help your choice.

 

EL

[appleinvestor 10]

MC is much, much faster than TS in Optimisation. TS has historical data, MC needs 3rd party historical data. The newest 64bit MC allows almost unlimited ticks historically. The amount of RAM you have is your limit. I get load failures on TS with complex strategies and trying to optimise over lots of tick data.

EL

 

As I said earlier, you need to have the proper equipment for the job. My minimum workstation has 16 cores (Westmere processor), 16 GB of RAM and 512 GB SSD drives, with 2 terabyte RAID backup. My top end system has 24 virtual cores, liquid cooled, 32 GB RAM SSD and large RAID drives connected via Thunderbolt.

 

By the way, I'm all Macintosh and run TradeStation on Windows 7 using both Parallels and VM Ware. I also do parallel processing with XGrid and can create a compute environment (essentially a supercomputer) with as much resources as I need for specialty tasks.

[Tasuki 10]

Seriously, Tradestation is a superior platform. Personally, I have never liked their brokerage and that may be the complaints you're hearing, because I have never heard anyone complain about Tradestation charting. I have seen and used other platforms such as eSignal, ThinkorSwim, Multicharts, Sierra Charts and none of those hold a candle Tradestations abilities. Best of trading success to you!

 

smmatrix,

While I'm not familiar with Multicharts, the other charting packages you mentioned are just about the bottom of the barrel. No surprise that TS is better. However, had you tried Ninjatrader, Ensign, Neoticker, Realtick, or InvestorRT, you might have had a better experience. In all those cases, however, the move from TS would require a complete re-write of all my indicators, which is why I was inquiring in this thread about Multicharts.

 

If you're a stat trader, you should maybe check out Neoticker. It's not for people like me, but it might be right up your alley. If you listen to them, their backtesting totally beats the hell out of TS, but I can't speak from personal experience. But seriously, you should check out Neoticker.

[Tasuki 10]

I run both TS and MC, as well as a few other platforms. I was a user of TS since the very early days of the 1990's.

 

MC is much, much faster than TS in Optimisation. TS has historical data, MC needs 3rd party historical data. The newest 64bit MC allows almost unlimited ticks historically. The amount of RAM you have is your limit. I get load failures on TS with complex strategies and trying to optimise over lots of tick data.

 

I predominantly use MC for my trading.

 

Each has pluses and minuses so choosing what features are dealbrakers for you will help your choice.

 

EL

 

EL, Finally, somebody who likes MC steps up to the plate. Many thanks for your contribution to the thread. May I ask, what data feed do you recommend for Multicharts?Thanks again!

Tasuki

[Aston01 10]

There are quite a few things I really do like with Tradestation, but like anything else if you use something frequently enough there are always a couple of things you would like improvement on.

 

1.) Multicore back testing - This can be just an annoying bottle neck that becomes blatantly obvious even if you are testing anything more than a moving average cross on tick data from a very limited time frame.

 

2.) Graphics - Obviously this doesn't effect the functionality which is the main reason for using TS to begin with, but after trialing the new version of eSignal for a month I have to say at first glance I thought I was taking a set backwards in some respects moving to TS. I know there a lot of hard core traders and programmer types out there that don't want to waste the resources on fancy graphics and don't think it matters. I am from the school of thought that thinks presentation is what draws you in and makes you feel comfortable ...functionality is what makes you continue to hang around. In that regard TS is a little behind the ball with their Windows 98 graphic styling .

 

3.) Broker options - There are a lot of positives about using TS as a broker, but with no volume breaks and over simplified commissions unlike IB and some of the other brokers out there it can get a bit annoying .

 

Say I get a wild hair and decide I want to buy some OTM option contacts that are going for $.05 ($5 total) . With TS my commission each way successful or not is $1 ...on that $5 I am paying 40% commission before slippage. IB for example charges a $1 minimum, but after that the commission is $.25 per contract($.15 if you are regularly doing a lot of volume)

To sum it up

 

TradeStation

$5 x 10 (Contracts) = $50

+

$1 Commission x 20 (Round trip commission) = $20

 

= 40% commission (requires a 67% increase just to cover the commission)

 

 

Interactive Brokers

$5 x 10 (Contracts) = $50

+

$.25 Commission x 20 (Round trip commission) = $5

 

= 10% commission ( $3 or 6% if your doing large volume) which only requires an 11% increase to cover

 

 

Everyone is always concerned about draw downs, but such a substantial cost before slippage can really limit certain types of transactions I would consider doing through TS. I may be ignorant at the beginning and not think much of it, but when you start doing volume it almost forces you to leave TS for some things...which kind of makes wonder why they would want to drive you to use someone else as opposed to stay with their monopoly. From this aspect Multicharts does get a thumbs up over TS.

 

BTW - I know there are a couple of offerings out there like TWSLink that let you utilize other brokers from within TS, but I haven't run across anything yet that seems to be kept up to date enough to feel secure that it is going to work flawlessly in the heat of the moment when you have a large position that you don't want any errors with. If someone has run across something that works well please let me know I would love to find a solution.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Aston01