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joshdance

The Close of a Bar is Meaningless

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  Patuca said:
sh?t bang my head against the wall and spit out my tobacco.. you would have one support line at one level and i another and the thousands of traders all having different support lines all over their charts so where is the REAL support level at? what about flags..pennants...triangles...and other patterns. what about double tops..double bottoms...wouldn't mine be different from yours..to me this would make TA nonsense.

 

It wouldn't make TA nonsense, it would make TA less precise. I'm not sure that anyone else on the thread who supports TA supports the idea that it is precise. I think this is what SIUYA and Sun Trader are trying to explain - it's a general guide, not an exact measure.

 

The two distinct and obvious lows of a double-bottom will always be there, whether you're looking at minute bars, range bars, tick charts . . . whatever.

 

You know, if you want to get pedantic about it, it's completely impossible to put a buy order in at a support line anyway - a line has no thickness ;)

 

Of course, "support" is really a vague and ill defined area of price where something happens that prevents price from trading below it. To the tick? Not often.

 

BlueHorseshoe

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  SIUYA said:

you can have 10 people look at the same chart and get ten different opinions, ten different styles and approaches, ten different possibilities of hitting the button in terms of time, and ten different possible exits.....so its largely irrelevant what people see.

close of bars is great for working with a computer intraday. Otherwise so long as each trader remains consistent to the best fit for what ever system they are using that also ties in with the market as it works then that is probably more important.

you can get 10 different opinions and many approaches..etc but as an example if you are trading a system that involves trading off of support/resistance levels which can be seen by most anyone then are you saying it doesn't matter at all what those levels are on traders charts? are you saying there is NO REAL empirical support or resistance level. that such levels only exist as ones chart draws them up. they are a figment of the chart's imagination? that there really isn't a level that is called support/resistance and that said REAL level is what makes the chart what it is?

 

If these two levels are relegated to the "chart" inventing them and THERE is such a thing as staggered time/price for the same 5 minutes chart time frame selected then support/resistance simply becomes whatever the chart draws. you could show a double top..i a triple top..while henry shows a cuadruple top.....etc..etc.

 

I think there is a real place and time that support comes in. same with resistance. and that they show up on any 5 minute chart as being there. i further believe it is there for all traders to see it. it is not an invention of the chart. it is the chart reflecting reality. i think all traders on a 5 minute chart are in fact seeing the same data AND the same bar formation. how they interpret that may be different.

 

i question the theory of staggered time/price. frames. does it even exist? i don't think so.

 

for instance if I log on at 10:00 a.m. to the ES and put up a 5 minute chart and you log on at 10:03 a.m. and put up a five minute chart i think we would be looking at the same data. our bars would appear the same. because it is the exchange that is putting out the data and my platform and yours that would be grabbing all the data relevant to 10:00 am to 10:05 a.m time period regardless of when we each logged on. as soon as you got on you would see the data that had corresponded to the last 3 minutes. since i had been already logged on for 3 minutes i would see the same data as you..same bar formation...etc.

 

i don't think this concept of staggered price/time exists for the same TF under consideration. this would do away with all empirical data to make calculations from...to pick out setups...to see chart patterns...etc...it would be doomsday for TA

 

houston..we have a problem..our many clocks run on different time frames (supposedly)than yours...please reset them all so they will be synchronized.

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  Patuca said:
you can get 10 different opinions and many approaches..etc but as an example if you are trading a system that involves trading off of support/resistance levels which can be seen by most anyone then are you saying it doesn't matter at all what those levels are on traders charts? are you saying there is NO REAL empirical support or resistance level. that such levels only exist as ones chart draws them up. they are a figment of the chart's imagination? that there really isn't a level that is called support/resistance and that said REAL level is what makes the chart what it is?

 

No, i am saying some will view them as areas of support to be purchased, some will view them as a level that might be broken. Some will wait until momentum starts, some will try to buy before, some will job/scalp at the levels, others will be adding to positions....

it has nothing to do with levels....it has to do with actions. REAL actions.

There are plenty of examples of images (not charts) that can be viewed as different things even though the image does not change.

 

The rest of the discussion about real or inventions is just BS.

 

Re the staggered charts - IF the data is taken from the exchange then yes, everyone will have the same. If data providers build up charts from tick data and start times are not aligned and time stamps not used then of course it can be different.

(I get your point - but if everyone has the same aligned clocks then its highly unlikely to occur)

A perfect example of this can be seen in range bars, these are very dependant on when someone starts the chart.....and are not related to a fixed point in time.

 

but again the whole discussion is probably a waste of time as irrelevant.

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  Patuca said:
you can get 10 different opinions and many approaches..etc but as an example if you are trading a system that involves trading off of support/resistance levels which can be seen by most anyone then are you saying it doesn't matter at all what those levels are on traders charts? are you saying there is NO REAL empirical support or resistance level. that such levels only exist as ones chart draws them up. they are a figment of the chart's imagination? that there really isn't a level that is called support/resistance and that said REAL level is what makes the chart what it is?

 

If these two levels are relegated to the "chart" inventing them and THERE is such a thing as staggered time/price for the same 5 minutes chart time frame selected then support/resistance simply becomes whatever the chart draws. you could show a double top..i a triple top..while henry shows a cuadruple top.....etc..etc.

 

I think there is a real place and time that support comes in. same with resistance. and that they show up on any 5 minute chart as being there. i further believe it is there for all traders to see it. it is not an invention of the chart. it is the chart reflecting reality. i think all traders on a 5 minute chart are in fact seeing the same data AND the same bar formation. how they interpret that may be different.

 

i question the theory of staggered time/price. frames. does it even exist? i don't think so.

 

for instance if I log on at 10:00 a.m. to the ES and put up a 5 minute chart and you log on at 10:03 a.m. and put up a five minute chart i think we would be looking at the same data. our bars would appear the same. because it is the exchange that is putting out the data and my platform and yours that would be grabbing all the data relevant to 10:00 am to 10:05 a.m time period regardless of when we each logged on. as soon as you got on you would see the data that had corresponded to the last 3 minutes. since i had been already logged on for 3 minutes i would see the same data as you..same bar formation...etc.

 

i don't think this concept of staggered price/time exists for the same TF under consideration. this would do away with all empirical data to make calculations from...to pick out setups...to see chart patterns...etc...it would be doomsday for TA

 

houston..we have a problem..our many clocks run on different time frames (supposedly)than yours...please reset them all so they will be synchronized.

 

Go and sit at an institutional desk where there are no charts - just a ticker. How often does a bar form? Everytime the trader glances up from his crossword and notes the current price.

 

But the issue is not whether we are all seeing the same chart. The issue is whether or not the discrete time snapshot that we all see holds special significance. It doesn't.

 

BlueHorseshoe

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Well here is my take on the bar close.

Firstly my data feed is independent from my Broker so that I may keep a check on their synchronicity ... otherwise I am flying blind.

My bars are zeroed in on the RTH open, which I confirm every morning.

 

Now the bars...

The bars are of the Traders creation, although I doubt many Retail traders fully appreciate this point .... they are what the Trader decides they should be in order that they may support his/her style of trading.

Their size and type are largely irrelevant to anyone other than the Trader ... the High and Low are time stamped prices supplied from the Exchange and are therefore factual ... the Open, Close, MP, TYP etc are the creation of the Trader's fertile mind.

 

Therefore the Close of a bar has as much meaning as the Trader assigns to it when he /she created the bar in the first place ... it is a snapshot of price at a regular interval...that is all it is.

 

If a Trader can see recurring price behaviour based on a Bar Close, then he/she should be aware of the origins of the creation of the Close.

 

When a Trader sees a recurring pattern based upon Exchange supplied information (ie price entering supply - demand zones) then that is a different matter entirely.

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  SIUYA said:
No, i am saying some will view them as areas of support to be purchased, some will view them as a level that might be broken.
yes i get you..but the LEVEL is there is it not? that is my whole point are we all viewing the same data or is everyone "seeing" different data depending on when they logged in? what each trader does with the data he/she see is a different topic and not even my concern here. my argument is that we are all "seeing" the same data and the same chart formation for that time period. and that data will reflect support/resistance levels,,chart patterns,OHLC..etc. i could care less what one does with what they see but we have to all be seeing the same thing or ...TA meaningless..another argument (that it is indeed meaningless) that others would also espouse.

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  johnw said:
the High and Low are time stamped prices supplied from the Exchange and are therefore factual ... the Open, Close, MP, TYP etc are the creation of the Trader's fertile mind.

.

is not the high and low one of many transactions likewise the open and close too. they only become such when a certain time frame is chosen to display the PA for that time frame but to say the open and close aren't from the exchange is to eliminate them from the data feed. they are ALL from the exchange but only become what they are (OHLC) when a time frame is put on them. the high of a 5 min chart may be the open of another TF chart. but they are all equal valid data points and they all are what the exchange sends. they are all just transactions..period.. they only become OHLC as they are fit into different time frames. so..in this sense they (OHLC) are all equal..all valid..all useable data.

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Here is a little picture I made to illustrate how the close of a bar can be important, this have to do with resistance ,once broken it will become support and vice versa, when a bar or candle closes above a resistance area, the next bar will open above support, and that is an advantage, because then the former resistance is support. in fact, it is impossible former resistance could become support if a bar didn't close above it. why? because price wouldn't be above it.

5aa7116eddfab_Closingisimportant.jpg.aca597903cfbc9792f1b6ab644edf1a2.jpg

Edited by Trader1

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  Patuca said:
yes i get you..but the LEVEL is there is it not? that is my whole point are we all viewing the same data or is everyone "seeing" different data depending on when they logged in? what each trader does with the data he/she see is a different topic and not even my concern here. my argument is that we are all "seeing" the same data and the same chart formation for that time period. and that data will reflect support/resistance levels,,chart patterns,OHLC..etc. i could care less what one does with what they see but we have to all be seeing the same thing or ...TA meaningless..another argument (that it is indeed meaningless) that others would also espouse.

 

We may not all be seeing the same data. A grandma who buys 10 shares a month of MCD has no idea what data is let alone support or resistance. She, along with hundreds of thousands of other investors who buy systematically also have no idea where support or resistance is. Monthly and weekly chart traders may have no idea what the daily or hourly charts look like. Are they wrong for not looking at the minutia and not checking the lower timeframe S/R levels.

 

No matter what timeframe, support or resistance is a level where you HOPE it will reverse. It becomes support or resistance after-the-fact. It it doesn't hold, it was never support or resistance in the first place.

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  johnw said:
.. it is a snapshot of price at a regular interval...that is all it is.

 

agreed that is all any of it is..but again the point is ARE we seeing the SAME data at the SAME time?

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  MightyMouse said:
We may not all be seeing the same data. A grandma who buys 10 shares a month of MCD has no idea what data is let alone support or resistance. She, along with hundreds of thousands of other investors who buy systematically also have no idea where support or resistance is. Monthly and weekly chart traders may have no idea what the daily or hourly charts look like. Are they wrong for not looking at the minutia and not checking the lower timeframe S/R levels.

 

No matter what timeframe, support or resistance is a level where you HOPE it will reverse. It becomes support or resistance after-the-fact. It it doesn't hold, it was never support or resistance in the first place.

but if grandma figures the computer out and puts up a 5 minute chart of the ES and mr horseshoes does the same WILL they be looking at the same data and same bar formation? i could care less if they are investors or traders or what they do with what they see. that is their business. but will they be seeing the same OHLC? that is all i want to know.....please answer quickly..

thanks

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  Patuca said:
agreed that is all any of it is..but again the point is ARE we seeing the SAME data at the SAME time?

 

Yes you se the same data, if you are on the same timeframe that is, all timeframes have different sizes and lengths of the candles sure, but if you are on the same timeframe as anyone else you would se the same thing.

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  Trader1 said:
Yes you se the same data, if you are on the same timeframe that is, all timeframes have different sizes and lengths of the candles sure, but if you are on the same timeframe as anyone else you would se the same thing.

 

Time Frames don't come into the picture at all.

 

At any given moment you will see the same price as the Exchange (allowing for lag) providing your PC clock is accurate

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  Trader1 said:
Yes you se the same data, if you are on the same timeframe that is, all timeframes have different sizes and lengths of the candles sure, but if you are on the same timeframe as anyone else you would se the same thing.
thank you sir/madam :applaud: ..you, with your answer, have singlehandedly rescued TA from utter annihilation. :applaud: :applaud::applaud:others may not see it, or believe it, but you, sir have preserved TA for posterity..stop by the desk and mistsubishi will have your award in hand to give you. captain bob will take you fishing on his boat..i, sir salute you.

 

time for a moto ride...i am outta here

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  Patuca said:
but if grandma figures the computer out and puts up a 5 minute chart of the ES and mr horseshoes does the same WILL they be looking at the same data and same bar formation? i could care less if they are investors or traders or what they do with what they see. that is their business. but will they be seeing the same OHLC? that is all i want to know.....please answer quickly..

thanks

If she looks at the 5 minute then she will see the same thing. Will she arrive at the same conclusion? No idea.

 

If she is trading daily or weekly bars, your 5 min s/r likely doesn't exist at all.

 

I look at what you call S/R and see something entirely different than what most people see when they see S/R.

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  Patuca said:
thank you sir/madam :applaud: ..you, with your answer, have singlehandedly rescued TA from utter annihilation. :applaud: :applaud::applaud:others may not see it, or believe it, but you, sir have preserved TA for posterity..stop by the desk and mistsubishi will have your award in hand to give you. captain bob will take you fishing on his boat..i, sir salute you.

 

time for a moto ride...i am outta here

LOL ;) don't know how I would take that, should I laugh or cry? anyway, Im agreeing with you, normally we all would see the same data with some exeptions, and that is if the broker is up to some fishy buisiness. btw, the close is very important, aswell as the open and the highs and lows, on a minute chart they might not be of so great importance but on higher timeframes it is, if you guys are talking about pure price then you should also get the same data as everyone else that is trading at the exchange,

but it also depends what you are trading,

if you thrade the forex you would probably not see the same price as everyone else because in forex there are no exchange, all the different brokers will have different prices depending on their buisiness model.

Edited by Trader1

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Way back at http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/12081-close-bar-meaningless-13.html#post139913 I was praying that

  Quote
Hopefully, we haven’t influenced anyone to come to discount the close if it actually should be ‘meaningful’ in their world

 

… And v v [vice versa] ...

Hopefully, we haven’t influenced anyone to come to represent the close as something more than it really is if it should be just another price print in their world.

… either of those would be worse than meaningless and useless…

Thankfully, I doubt we have ‘influenced’ anyone… :crap: 27 fkn pages later

 

What we have done is come closer – closer to ET than ever before in the whole history of this forum… Is there any way the mods could drain this thread from TL and tranfuse it in its entirely into ET?

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mitsubishi why do you sleep at the most important times? this is monumental and trader1 has preserved TA for many many generations....cheers TA is safe! :cheers: :cheers:

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:bang head:

  MightyMouse said:
If she looks at the 5 minute then she will see the same thing.
thank you mighty mouse. this is all i needed to hear. it was starting to get plumb embarassing...knock my head against the wall and spit out my tobacco :bang head: :embarassed: :embarassed: Edited by Patuca

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  zdo said:
Way back at http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/12081-close-bar-meaningless-13.html#post139913 I was praying that

 

Thankfully, I doubt we have ‘influenced’ anyone… :crap: 27 fkn pages later

 

What we have done is come closer – closer to ET than ever before in the whole history of this forum… Is there any way the mods could drain this thread from TL and tranfuse it in its entirely into ET?

your understanding in the post you referenced is noted..at least you didn't throw out the close as meaningless but why should we give the glory of saving TA to ET?????:cinema:

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  mitsubishi said:
Dunno,"this thread just does something to me" ;)
LOL seems like I've heard that line before. :haha:

 

your mathematical equations are safe mitsubishi..trader1 made sure of that after i kept pushing for answers. the concept of staggered time frames could have affected your calculations...we couldn't let that happen now could we?

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You're still not getting it, are you? Not one of you.

 

"Staggered" timeframes is a way to illustrate the point - nobody is suggesting that they occur in any significant manner (though differences in data might result in such discrepancies). Forget about "staggered time frames". Forget anyone ever proposed their existence.

 

The point is very simple:

 

The timeframe is a discrete structure arbitrarily imposed on continuous data.

 

It's an arrogant getsure, a bit like trying to map the landscape. Consider the contour lines showing altitude on an ordnance survey map . . . When I walk outside my front door, is the ground perfectly flat for a hundred yards, and then at the point where the contour line is drawn on my map, does the ground instantaneously drop by twenty feet? Of course not. The terrain has continuous gradient; the contour lines on a map are a discrete structure we impose to try and represent this in two dimensions.

 

If you don't "get it" from this post, then you should probably give up, because it really doesn't matter too much anyway . . .

 

BlueHorseshoe

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  johnw said:

At any given moment you will see the same price as the Exchange (allowing for lag) providing your PC clock is accurate

 

Though unimportant, THIS IS NOT TRUE.

 

Phone your broker. Ask them what filters they apply to the data they receive from the exchange before they pass it on to you.

 

Pretty much the only people receiving raw data are HFTs, and they apply their own data cleansing methods just like your broker does.

 

Not that this matters - it is irrelevant to the fact that the close of the bar is meaningless.

 

BlueHorseshoe

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Despite last week’s Core PCE Price Index rising to its highest level since February 2024, the US Dollar has been unable to see any significant rise in value. Due to the US Dollar and Gold's inverse correlation, the price of Gold is benefiting from the Dollar weakness. Investors worry that new trade barriers will prompt retaliatory measures from China, the Eurozone, and Japan, potentially escalating the conflict. Experts at The Goldman Sachs Group Inc. believe that such actions by the US administration will drive rising inflation and unemployment while effectively halting economic growth in the country. Can Gold Maintain Momentum? When it comes to technical analysis, the price of Gold is not trading at a price where oscillators are indicating the instrument is overbought. The Relative Strength Index currently trades at 68.88, outside of the overbought area, since Gold’s price fell 0.65% during this morning’s session. However, even with this decline, the price still remains 0.40% higher than the day’s open price. In terms of fundamental analysis, there continues to be plenty of factors indicating the price could continue to rise. However, the price movement of the week will also partially depend on the employment data from the US. The US is due to release the JOLTS Job Vacancies for February this afternoon, the ADP Non-Farm Employment Change tomorrow, and the NFP Change and Unemployment Rate on Friday. If all data reads higher than expectations, investors may look to sell to lock in profits at the high price. Key Takeaway Points: Gold’s Rally Continues – Up 17% in 2025 as investors seek safety from inflation, recession fears, and trade tensions. Trade War Impact – New US tariffs and potential retaliation from China, the EU, and Japan drive uncertainty, boosting Gold demand. Weak US Dollar – The Dollar’s struggle supports Gold’s rise due to their inverse correlation. Gold’s Outlook – Uptrend may continue, but US jobs data could trigger profit-taking. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business.   Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report.   Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar.   Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding of how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE!   Click HERE to READ more Market news.   Michalis Efthymiou HFMarkets   Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in Leveraged Products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 31st March 2025.   Trump Confirms Tariffs on All Countries, Sending Stocks Lower.   The NASDAQ continues to trade lower due to the US confirming the latest tariffs will be on all countries. In addition to this, bearish volatility also is largely due to the higher inflation data from Friday. The NASDAQ declines to its lowest price since September 11th 2024. Core PCE Price Index - Inflation Increases Again! The PCE Price Index read 2.5% aligning with expert forecasts not triggering any alarm bells. However, the Core PCE Price Index rose from 0.3% to 0.4% MoM and from 2.7% to 2.8% YoY, signalling growing inflationary pressure. This increases the likelihood that the Federal Reserve will maintain elevated interest rates for an extended period. The NASDAQ fell 2.60% due to the higher inflation reading which is known to pressure the stock market due to pressure on consumer demand and a more hawkish Federal Reserve. Boston Fed President Susan Collins recently commented that tariffs could drive up inflation, though the long-term impact remains uncertain. She told journalists that a short-term spike is the most probable outcome but believes the current pause in monetary policy adjustments is appropriate given the prevailing uncertainties. Although, certain investment banks such as JP Morgan actually believe the Federal Reserve will be forced into cutting rates. This is due to expectations that the economy will struggle under the new trade policy. For example, JP Morgan expects the Federal Reserve to delay rate cuts but will quickly cut towards the end of 2025. Market Risk Appetite Takes a Hit! A big factor for the day is the drop in the risk appetite of investors. This can be seen from the VIX which is up almost 6%, Gold which is trading 1.30% higher and the Japanese Yen which is the day’s best performing currency. Most safe haven assets, bar the US Dollar, increase in value. It is also worth noting that all indices are decreasing in value during this morning's Asian session with the Nikkei225 and NASDAQ witnessing the strongest decline. Previously the stock market rose in value as investors heard rumours that tariffs would only be on certain countries. This bullish swing occurred between March 14th and 25th. Over the weekend, President Donald Trump indicated that the upcoming tariffs would apply to all countries, not just those with the largest trade imbalances with the US. NASDAQ - Technical Analysis In terms of technical analysis, the NASDAQ continues to obtain indications that sellers control the price action. The price opens on a bearish price gap measuring 0.30% and trades below all Moving Averages on all timeframes. The NASDAQ also trades below the VWAP and almost 100% of the most influential components (stocks) are declining in value.     The next significant support level is at $18,313, and the resistance level stands at $20,367.95. Key Takeaway Points: NASDAQ falls to its lowest since September 2024 as the US confirms tariffs on all countries, adding to inflation concerns. Core PCE inflation rises to 0.4% MoM and 2.8% YoY, increasing the likelihood of prolonged high interest rates. Investor risk appetite drops as VIX jumps 6%, gold gains 1.3%, and safe-haven assets outperform. NASDAQ shows strong bearish momentum, trading below key technical levels with support at $18,313 and resistance at $20,367.95. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business.   Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report.   Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar.   Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding of how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE!   Click HERE to READ more Market news.   Michalis Efthymiou HFMarkets   Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in Leveraged Products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
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