The Close of a Bar is Meaningless

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

sh?t bang my head against the wall and spit out my tobacco.. you would have one support line at one level and i another and the thousands of traders all having different support lines all over their charts so where is the REAL support level at? what about flags..pennants...triangles...and other patterns. what about double tops..double bottoms...wouldn't mine be different from yours..to me this would make TA nonsense.

 

It wouldn't make TA nonsense, it would make TA less precise. I'm not sure that anyone else on the thread who supports TA supports the idea that it is precise. I think this is what SIUYA and Sun Trader are trying to explain - it's a general guide, not an exact measure.

 

The two distinct and obvious lows of a double-bottom will always be there, whether you're looking at minute bars, range bars, tick charts . . . whatever.

 

You know, if you want to get pedantic about it, it's completely impossible to put a buy order in at a support line anyway - a line has no thickness

 

Of course, "support" is really a vague and ill defined area of price where something happens that prevents price from trading below it. To the tick? Not often.

 

BlueHorseshoe

[Patuca 13]

you can have 10 people look at the same chart and get ten different opinions, ten different styles and approaches, ten different possibilities of hitting the button in terms of time, and ten different possible exits.....so its largely irrelevant what people see.

close of bars is great for working with a computer intraday. Otherwise so long as each trader remains consistent to the best fit for what ever system they are using that also ties in with the market as it works then that is probably more important.

you can get 10 different opinions and many approaches..etc but as an example if you are trading a system that involves trading off of support/resistance levels which can be seen by most anyone then are you saying it doesn't matter at all what those levels are on traders charts? are you saying there is NO REAL empirical support or resistance level. that such levels only exist as ones chart draws them up. they are a figment of the chart's imagination? that there really isn't a level that is called support/resistance and that said REAL level is what makes the chart what it is?

 

If these two levels are relegated to the "chart" inventing them and THERE is such a thing as staggered time/price for the same 5 minutes chart time frame selected then support/resistance simply becomes whatever the chart draws. you could show a double top..i a triple top..while henry shows a cuadruple top.....etc..etc.

 

I think there is a real place and time that support comes in. same with resistance. and that they show up on any 5 minute chart as being there. i further believe it is there for all traders to see it. it is not an invention of the chart. it is the chart reflecting reality. i think all traders on a 5 minute chart are in fact seeing the same data AND the same bar formation. how they interpret that may be different.

 

i question the theory of staggered time/price. frames. does it even exist? i don't think so.

 

for instance if I log on at 10:00 a.m. to the ES and put up a 5 minute chart and you log on at 10:03 a.m. and put up a five minute chart i think we would be looking at the same data. our bars would appear the same. because it is the exchange that is putting out the data and my platform and yours that would be grabbing all the data relevant to 10:00 am to 10:05 a.m time period regardless of when we each logged on. as soon as you got on you would see the data that had corresponded to the last 3 minutes. since i had been already logged on for 3 minutes i would see the same data as you..same bar formation...etc.

 

i don't think this concept of staggered price/time exists for the same TF under consideration. this would do away with all empirical data to make calculations from...to pick out setups...to see chart patterns...etc...it would be doomsday for TA

 

houston..we have a problem..our many clocks run on different time frames (supposedly)than yours...please reset them all so they will be synchronized.

[SIUYA 11]

you can get 10 different opinions and many approaches..etc but as an example if you are trading a system that involves trading off of support/resistance levels which can be seen by most anyone then are you saying it doesn't matter at all what those levels are on traders charts? are you saying there is NO REAL empirical support or resistance level. that such levels only exist as ones chart draws them up. they are a figment of the chart's imagination? that there really isn't a level that is called support/resistance and that said REAL level is what makes the chart what it is?

 

No, i am saying some will view them as areas of support to be purchased, some will view them as a level that might be broken. Some will wait until momentum starts, some will try to buy before, some will job/scalp at the levels, others will be adding to positions....

it has nothing to do with levels....it has to do with actions. REAL actions.

There are plenty of examples of images (not charts) that can be viewed as different things even though the image does not change.

 

The rest of the discussion about real or inventions is just BS.

 

Re the staggered charts - IF the data is taken from the exchange then yes, everyone will have the same. If data providers build up charts from tick data and start times are not aligned and time stamps not used then of course it can be different.

(I get your point - but if everyone has the same aligned clocks then its highly unlikely to occur)

A perfect example of this can be seen in range bars, these are very dependant on when someone starts the chart.....and are not related to a fixed point in time.

 

but again the whole discussion is probably a waste of time as irrelevant.

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

you can get 10 different opinions and many approaches..etc but as an example if you are trading a system that involves trading off of support/resistance levels which can be seen by most anyone then are you saying it doesn't matter at all what those levels are on traders charts? are you saying there is NO REAL empirical support or resistance level. that such levels only exist as ones chart draws them up. they are a figment of the chart's imagination? that there really isn't a level that is called support/resistance and that said REAL level is what makes the chart what it is?

 

If these two levels are relegated to the "chart" inventing them and THERE is such a thing as staggered time/price for the same 5 minutes chart time frame selected then support/resistance simply becomes whatever the chart draws. you could show a double top..i a triple top..while henry shows a cuadruple top.....etc..etc.

 

I think there is a real place and time that support comes in. same with resistance. and that they show up on any 5 minute chart as being there. i further believe it is there for all traders to see it. it is not an invention of the chart. it is the chart reflecting reality. i think all traders on a 5 minute chart are in fact seeing the same data AND the same bar formation. how they interpret that may be different.

 

i question the theory of staggered time/price. frames. does it even exist? i don't think so.

 

for instance if I log on at 10:00 a.m. to the ES and put up a 5 minute chart and you log on at 10:03 a.m. and put up a five minute chart i think we would be looking at the same data. our bars would appear the same. because it is the exchange that is putting out the data and my platform and yours that would be grabbing all the data relevant to 10:00 am to 10:05 a.m time period regardless of when we each logged on. as soon as you got on you would see the data that had corresponded to the last 3 minutes. since i had been already logged on for 3 minutes i would see the same data as you..same bar formation...etc.

 

i don't think this concept of staggered price/time exists for the same TF under consideration. this would do away with all empirical data to make calculations from...to pick out setups...to see chart patterns...etc...it would be doomsday for TA

 

houston..we have a problem..our many clocks run on different time frames (supposedly)than yours...please reset them all so they will be synchronized.

 

Go and sit at an institutional desk where there are no charts - just a ticker. How often does a bar form? Everytime the trader glances up from his crossword and notes the current price.

 

But the issue is not whether we are all seeing the same chart. The issue is whether or not the discrete time snapshot that we all see holds special significance. It doesn't.

 

BlueHorseshoe

[johnw 10]

Well here is my take on the bar close.

Firstly my data feed is independent from my Broker so that I may keep a check on their synchronicity ... otherwise I am flying blind.

My bars are zeroed in on the RTH open, which I confirm every morning.

 

Now the bars...

The bars are of the Traders creation, although I doubt many Retail traders fully appreciate this point .... they are what the Trader decides they should be in order that they may support his/her style of trading.

Their size and type are largely irrelevant to anyone other than the Trader ... the High and Low are time stamped prices supplied from the Exchange and are therefore factual ... the Open, Close, MP, TYP etc are the creation of the Trader's fertile mind.

 

Therefore the Close of a bar has as much meaning as the Trader assigns to it when he /she created the bar in the first place ... it is a snapshot of price at a regular interval...that is all it is.

 

If a Trader can see recurring price behaviour based on a Bar Close, then he/she should be aware of the origins of the creation of the Close.

 

When a Trader sees a recurring pattern based upon Exchange supplied information (ie price entering supply - demand zones) then that is a different matter entirely.

[Patuca 13]

No, i am saying some will view them as areas of support to be purchased, some will view them as a level that might be broken.

yes i get you..but the LEVEL is there is it not? that is my whole point are we all viewing the same data or is everyone "seeing" different data depending on when they logged in? what each trader does with the data he/she see is a different topic and not even my concern here. my argument is that we are all "seeing" the same data and the same chart formation for that time period. and that data will reflect support/resistance levels,,chart patterns,OHLC..etc. i could care less what one does with what they see but we have to all be seeing the same thing or ...TA meaningless..another argument (that it is indeed meaningless) that others would also espouse.

[Patuca 13]

the High and Low are time stamped prices supplied from the Exchange and are therefore factual ... the Open, Close, MP, TYP etc are the creation of the Trader's fertile mind.

.

is not the high and low one of many transactions likewise the open and close too. they only become such when a certain time frame is chosen to display the PA for that time frame but to say the open and close aren't from the exchange is to eliminate them from the data feed. they are ALL from the exchange but only become what they are (OHLC) when a time frame is put on them. the high of a 5 min chart may be the open of another TF chart. but they are all equal valid data points and they all are what the exchange sends. they are all just transactions..period.. they only become OHLC as they are fit into different time frames. so..in this sense they (OHLC) are all equal..all valid..all useable data.

[Trader1 10]

Here is a little picture I made to illustrate how the close of a bar can be important, this have to do with resistance ,once broken it will become support and vice versa, when a bar or candle closes above a resistance area, the next bar will open above support, and that is an advantage, because then the former resistance is support. in fact, it is impossible former resistance could become support if a bar didn't close above it. why? because price wouldn't be above it.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Trader1

[MightyMouse 12]

yes i get you..but the LEVEL is there is it not? that is my whole point are we all viewing the same data or is everyone "seeing" different data depending on when they logged in? what each trader does with the data he/she see is a different topic and not even my concern here. my argument is that we are all "seeing" the same data and the same chart formation for that time period. and that data will reflect support/resistance levels,,chart patterns,OHLC..etc. i could care less what one does with what they see but we have to all be seeing the same thing or ...TA meaningless..another argument (that it is indeed meaningless) that others would also espouse.

 

We may not all be seeing the same data. A grandma who buys 10 shares a month of MCD has no idea what data is let alone support or resistance. She, along with hundreds of thousands of other investors who buy systematically also have no idea where support or resistance is. Monthly and weekly chart traders may have no idea what the daily or hourly charts look like. Are they wrong for not looking at the minutia and not checking the lower timeframe S/R levels.

 

No matter what timeframe, support or resistance is a level where you HOPE it will reverse. It becomes support or resistance after-the-fact. It it doesn't hold, it was never support or resistance in the first place.

[Patuca 13]

.. it is a snapshot of price at a regular interval...that is all it is.

 

agreed that is all any of it is..but again the point is ARE we seeing the SAME data at the SAME time?

[Patuca 13]

We may not all be seeing the same data. A grandma who buys 10 shares a month of MCD has no idea what data is let alone support or resistance. She, along with hundreds of thousands of other investors who buy systematically also have no idea where support or resistance is. Monthly and weekly chart traders may have no idea what the daily or hourly charts look like. Are they wrong for not looking at the minutia and not checking the lower timeframe S/R levels.

 

No matter what timeframe, support or resistance is a level where you HOPE it will reverse. It becomes support or resistance after-the-fact. It it doesn't hold, it was never support or resistance in the first place.

but if grandma figures the computer out and puts up a 5 minute chart of the ES and mr horseshoes does the same WILL they be looking at the same data and same bar formation? i could care less if they are investors or traders or what they do with what they see. that is their business. but will they be seeing the same OHLC? that is all i want to know.....please answer quickly..

thanks

[Trader1 10]

agreed that is all any of it is..but again the point is ARE we seeing the SAME data at the SAME time?

 

Yes you se the same data, if you are on the same timeframe that is, all timeframes have different sizes and lengths of the candles sure, but if you are on the same timeframe as anyone else you would se the same thing.

[johnw 10]

Yes you se the same data, if you are on the same timeframe that is, all timeframes have different sizes and lengths of the candles sure, but if you are on the same timeframe as anyone else you would se the same thing.

 

Time Frames don't come into the picture at all.

 

At any given moment you will see the same price as the Exchange (allowing for lag) providing your PC clock is accurate

[Patuca 13]

Yes you se the same data, if you are on the same timeframe that is, all timeframes have different sizes and lengths of the candles sure, but if you are on the same timeframe as anyone else you would se the same thing.

thank you sir/madam :applaud: ..you, with your answer, have singlehandedly rescued TA from utter annihilation. :applaud: :applaud::applaud:others may not see it, or believe it, but you, sir have preserved TA for posterity..stop by the desk and mistsubishi will have your award in hand to give you. captain bob will take you fishing on his boat..i, sir salute you.

 

time for a moto ride...i am outta here

[MightyMouse 12]

but if grandma figures the computer out and puts up a 5 minute chart of the ES and mr horseshoes does the same WILL they be looking at the same data and same bar formation? i could care less if they are investors or traders or what they do with what they see. that is their business. but will they be seeing the same OHLC? that is all i want to know.....please answer quickly..

thanks

If she looks at the 5 minute then she will see the same thing. Will she arrive at the same conclusion? No idea.

 

If she is trading daily or weekly bars, your 5 min s/r likely doesn't exist at all.

 

I look at what you call S/R and see something entirely different than what most people see when they see S/R.

[Trader1 10]

thank you sir/madam :applaud: ..you, with your answer, have singlehandedly rescued TA from utter annihilation. :applaud: :applaud::applaud:others may not see it, or believe it, but you, sir have preserved TA for posterity..stop by the desk and mistsubishi will have your award in hand to give you. captain bob will take you fishing on his boat..i, sir salute you.

 

time for a moto ride...i am outta here

LOL don't know how I would take that, should I laugh or cry? anyway, Im agreeing with you, normally we all would see the same data with some exeptions, and that is if the broker is up to some fishy buisiness. btw, the close is very important, aswell as the open and the highs and lows, on a minute chart they might not be of so great importance but on higher timeframes it is, if you guys are talking about pure price then you should also get the same data as everyone else that is trading at the exchange,

but it also depends what you are trading,

if you thrade the forex you would probably not see the same price as everyone else because in forex there are no exchange, all the different brokers will have different prices depending on their buisiness model.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Trader1

[zdo 20]

omG

 

[27 pages of the same crap over and over]

[zdo 20]

Way back at http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/12081-close-bar-meaningless-13.html#post139913 I was praying that

Hopefully, we haven’t influenced anyone to come to discount the close if it actually should be ‘meaningful’ in their world

 

… And v v [vice versa] ...

Hopefully, we haven’t influenced anyone to come to represent the close as something more than it really is if it should be just another price print in their world.

… either of those would be worse than meaningless and useless…

Thankfully, I doubt we have ‘influenced’ anyone… :crap: 27 fkn pages later

 

What we have done is come closer – closer to ET than ever before in the whole history of this forum… Is there any way the mods could drain this thread from TL and tranfuse it in its entirely into ET?

[SunTrader 10]

...guess i must've been on another staggered time frame ...

:beer: Hiccup. Staggered?

[Patuca 13]

mitsubishi why do you sleep at the most important times? this is monumental and trader1 has preserved TA for many many generations....cheers TA is safe! :cheers: :cheers:

[Patuca 13]

:bang head:

If she looks at the 5 minute then she will see the same thing.

thank you mighty mouse. this is all i needed to hear. it was starting to get plumb embarassing...knock my head against the wall and spit out my tobacco :bang head: :embarassed: :embarassed: Edited October 31, 2012 by Patuca

[Patuca 13]

Way back at http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/12081-close-bar-meaningless-13.html#post139913 I was praying that

 

Thankfully, I doubt we have ‘influenced’ anyone… :crap: 27 fkn pages later

 

What we have done is come closer – closer to ET than ever before in the whole history of this forum… Is there any way the mods could drain this thread from TL and tranfuse it in its entirely into ET?

your understanding in the post you referenced is noted..at least you didn't throw out the close as meaningless but why should we give the glory of saving TA to ET?????:cinema:

[Patuca 13]

Dunno,"this thread just does something to me"

LOL seems like I've heard that line before. :haha:

 

your mathematical equations are safe mitsubishi..trader1 made sure of that after i kept pushing for answers. the concept of staggered time frames could have affected your calculations...we couldn't let that happen now could we?

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

You're still not getting it, are you? Not one of you.

 

"Staggered" timeframes is a way to illustrate the point - nobody is suggesting that they occur in any significant manner (though differences in data might result in such discrepancies). Forget about "staggered time frames". Forget anyone ever proposed their existence.

 

The point is very simple:

 

The timeframe is a discrete structure arbitrarily imposed on continuous data.

 

It's an arrogant getsure, a bit like trying to map the landscape. Consider the contour lines showing altitude on an ordnance survey map . . . When I walk outside my front door, is the ground perfectly flat for a hundred yards, and then at the point where the contour line is drawn on my map, does the ground instantaneously drop by twenty feet? Of course not. The terrain has continuous gradient; the contour lines on a map are a discrete structure we impose to try and represent this in two dimensions.

 

If you don't "get it" from this post, then you should probably give up, because it really doesn't matter too much anyway . . .

 

BlueHorseshoe

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

At any given moment you will see the same price as the Exchange (allowing for lag) providing your PC clock is accurate

 

Though unimportant, THIS IS NOT TRUE.

 

Phone your broker. Ask them what filters they apply to the data they receive from the exchange before they pass it on to you.

 

Pretty much the only people receiving raw data are HFTs, and they apply their own data cleansing methods just like your broker does.

 

Not that this matters - it is irrelevant to the fact that the close of the bar is meaningless.

 

BlueHorseshoe