Gold Bullish or Bearish

[bobcollett 10]

THE BIG GOLD SCAM

 

As background please read the link posted by SIUYA, on his post # 423 .

 

The Comex EFT gold fund admits it has only enough Gold to cover 20% of redemptions.

So somewhere down the line they sold the balance , but more than likely , they NEVER bought in the first place.

 

Now lets take a nice little retail investor. I'll call him Jimbo because hes a big gold bull.

Every month he buys some more Paper Gold. He starts at $1320 and continues to $1800.

It was a great investment while it lasted.

His average price is $1560 (just a guess)

The price is now back to $1375 (yesterdays close)

His wife says he's a idiot. Lots of their savings down the drain.

"Kindly go to the Comex and close the account. Get back what you can ."

And off course,Comex pay him in dollars. So although in some cases he paid $1800 , he got back $1375

HELLO!

Did the Comex make a profit?

 

They never bought the gold in the first place. They hedged thier position while Gold was rising. They did nothing while Gold was falling.

They made a nice profit out of Jimbo because they settled in dollars.

They also know most investors dont want to take home a big gold bar. Dollars are fine.

 

And if this is what an honest crowd are doing, imagine what a bunch of crooks like Goldman and Barclays are doing.Probably sold their own Gold fund short.

And I can extend this play to Mutual Funds

 

Petuca is right... BIG SCAM

 

regards

bobc

 

PS. SIUYA. Hi. I 've got this nice big bridge in Brooklyn FOR SALE.

[jimbo320 10]

Bob, I agree it is a scam to prop up the dollar and the equity market, which appears to be working.

I wouldn't use paper gold, I'd use these guys. http://Www.bullionvault.com

Perhaps gold is in a bubble to and we are reverting to value, and we've seen the top, but while I've got $ ill keep adding when we start to turn up again, personally I think gold has a place in everyone's portfolio. All bubbles pop, what'll be next, now gold has popped?

I guess I'll find out when I retire in n years whether I made a good choice?

Edited May 18, 2013 by jimbo320

[SIUYA 11]

THE BIG GOLD SCAM

 

As background please read the link posted by SIUYA, on his post # 423 .

 

The Comex EFT gold fund admits it has only enough Gold to cover 20% of redemptions.

So somewhere down the line they sold the balance , but more than likely , they NEVER bought in the first place.

 

Now lets take a nice little retail investor. I'll call him Jimbo because hes a big gold bull.

Every month he buys some more Paper Gold. He starts at $1320 and continues to $1800.

It was a great investment while it lasted.

His average price is $1560 (just a guess)

The price is now back to $1375 (yesterdays close)

His wife says he's a idiot. Lots of their savings down the drain.

"Kindly go to the Comex and close the account. Get back what you can ."

And off course,Comex pay him in dollars. So although in some cases he paid $1800 , he got back $1375

HELLO!

Did the Comex make a profit?

 

They never bought the gold in the first place. They hedged thier position while Gold was rising. They did nothing while Gold was falling.

They made a nice profit out of Jimbo because they settled in dollars.

They also know most investors dont want to take home a big gold bar. Dollars are fine.

 

And if this is what an honest crowd are doing, imagine what a bunch of crooks like Goldman and Barclays are doing.Probably sold their own Gold fund short.

And I can extend this play to Mutual Funds

 

Petuca is right... BIG SCAM

 

regards

bobc

 

PS. SIUYA. Hi. I 've got this nice big bridge in Brooklyn FOR SALE.

 

So are you talking about a scam involving a fund that did not do what it said it would, or are you talking about manipulation of the gold price or are you now talking about the exchange and its warehousing and margining process? Very different things - they may be related....they also might not have anything to do with each other.

 

There seems to be a jump from one to the other here.....and your example is a little confusing.

Jimbo got back what it said it was worth - what is wrong with that - what planet are you living on whereby your average price is what it is worth as opposed to the price someone will pay on the day you wish to redeem?

Do you think the Comex/CME actually trades against you?

What about the seller of the future - but lets stick to the example of Jimbo and his investment in a fund that is meant to be buying physical gold.

 

....and not sure how your example shows manipulation - if the fund is actually trading against Jimbo then in your example all they did was a good job....even if they are not meant to....or maybe it was those other smart investors that redemmed when Jimbo bought - funds do have two way action.

 

If a fund that you have invested in are not doing what they say they do then this is a different matter --- still not manipulation - a scam yes - commonly referred to as a ponzi scheme whereby new investors pay off older redemming investors - but where is it that these funds dont have the gold? (note not all funds are physically baked and when you read the small print might be surprised - redemptions are often in cash)

 

If the warehousing system is missing gold that is meant to be there and meant to be allocated to people then this is theft - still not manipulation (Thinking MFGlobal etc; - this is no different to anything whereby something is stolen - I have always said, holding gold in a bank account in Switzerland when you are stuck in the USA/Oz/UK aint going to do you much good if the SHTF)

 

You example shows nothing about this being a scam or manipulation or anything - it simply shows that Jimbo got it wrong.

Where is the proof that these funds are scamming people?

 

..............

Crazy rant----

When it comes to the leverage and the growth of the paper market v the actual numbers around the physical supply and demand of gold (or any commodity for that matter) then this has been going for decades - which has affected which (chicken and egg) is always debatable. - Thats how futures markets, speculation etc work. (You know your house, that you paid $1mil for - then insure it for $1mil, then the insurance company uses reinsurance companies to spread their risk.....does not make you house worth $3mil)

Are you suggesting that we do away with futures markets, leverage and speculation? or are we simply talking about the way futures markets swing between contango and backwardation? I keep reading about the disconnect of futures markets and the phyiscal - hello - one is a derivative of the other - its priced and traded based on what costs etc are required.....its not just a bet on thin air (though plenty of things are)

--- end rant

...............

.......................................

 

As for Patucca -

If the markets are rigged against you, here is the question you need to ask yourself - what sort of idiot are you to trade in a rigged market whereby you are going to loose?

Contact Bob for that bridge - it sounds like something you might be interested in.

 

Remember the job of the Fed is to manipulate the market :doh: - if it does a good or bad job is entirely up to you decide and for you to then bet against them.

 

(but lets stick to gold)

 

If you are concerned with theft and have proof of it, or can actually put away the political PR then it would be interesting to hear how exactly (the mechanism and process as opposed to baseless claims) this manipulation occurs.

 

......................

Here is another take on it....

 

If there is a massive scam, gold has been stolen and the whole instrument is plagued with massive amounts of fraud......how many such instruments can you think of that have gone up in price after this is revealed....maybe if you think the system is rigged gold is not where you want to be when people rush for the door to salvage what money they can.

Sort of like the housing market when it gets leverage on leverage - price collapses - it does not rise. Which is why i think a lot of instruments (not just gold) are potentially a game of musical chairs.

 

(hope this makes sense - its a Sat afternoon typed vomit)

[jimbo320 10]

I think there was one example of banks renegade on the previous contract to deliver the physical. Ie ABN amro, which was cash settled.

 

I think the scam is that paper sellers can manipulate the price even though they don't have the physical, and if there is no obligation to even deliver it, it's a scam, and a Ponzi scheme.

 

Currently there is an obligation to deliver the gold at comex at the end of June when the futures expire, which hasn't been broken as yet.

 

I also suspect that the gold sellers that liquidated their ETFs are now moving into the Dow jones, another bubble.

 

Why does it take the US 7 years to deliver the gold back to Germany, because they don't have it, and the want it buy it over the bear market at a bargain price.

 

I also suggest you use another name, Lets say Fred, as its nothing to do with me ... PLEASE!

[SunTrader 10]

......

Currently there is an obligation to deliver the gold at comex at the end of June when the futures expire, which hasn't been broken as yet....

.... and every other futures contract expiration date.

 

Nothing new there.

 

What's your point.

[SIUYA 11]

I think the scam is that paper sellers can manipulate the price even though they don't have the physical, and if there is no obligation to even deliver it, it's a scam, and a Ponzi scheme.

 

 

How then do they manipulate the price?

I have both bought and shorted gold before with zero intention of delivering it.....

If you get caught and the demand really pushes the price i have to either cut my position or roll....again - please explain how the manipulation by the short sellers work?

Those 'shorters' those manipulators must have taken an absolute bath over the last ten years - why is it suddenly an issue now?

[Patuca 13]

As for Patucca -

If the markets are rigged against you, here is the question you need to ask yourself - what sort of idiot are you to trade in a rigged market whereby you are going to loose?

Contact Bob for that bridge - it sounds like something you might be interested in.

 

Remember the job of the Fed is to manipulate the market :doh: - if it does a good or bad job is entirely up to you decide and for you to then bet against them.

 

(but lets stick to gold)

 

If you are concerned with theft and have proof of it, or can actually put away the political PR then it would be interesting to hear how exactly (the mechanism and process as opposed to baseless claims) this manipulation occurs.

 

......................

who said i trade paper gold long? did i say that? you bet WITH the manipulation when trading and against when investing (catch a falling knife). That is exactly what capt Bob is doing. When you see the naked short selling is driving prices down ...of course ...you short...you can't stand in front of a runaway train and not get hurt.. and pipsqeak traders ain't gonna stop the movement of the train....but since you know it is rigged and being manipulated you bet against the manipulation as you see it ending..but not on paper because the whole sh?t bag is gonna blow up soon simply because too much paper for physical.

 

have you ever watched the dom? all kinds pf manipulations take ALL day long.... at the tick level...manipulations take place at this level and they certainly do at other time frames. of course normal market pressures exist outside of manipulation but there exist intraday, daily, weekly, monthly and yearly manipulation going on also...and sometimes the manipulators get shafted ..remember the days of the soes bandits..they put the screws to many MM's...they got a good dose of their own freaking...medicine...i laugh..did you laugh?...MM's were always screwing the pipsqueak trader but they squeeled like pigs with the event of the soes bandits...sh?t it was funny..no ...hilarious..those were the days...nowdays it is hft against hft..sometimes one gobbles the other up...in this senario the pipsqueak trader has to make his living....

 

 

who you think drove the price of gold down? normal market pressures..did you notice the sudden violent start? the enormous increase in vol. any long gold bug holding paper is dead..or wish they were..investors simply see it as another buying opportunity..

 

I don't know why wycoffonians and many price action people ignore market manipulations?...it is useful to detect it when it does take place...maybe they just relax in the premise that price is gonna do what price is gonna do ...the market equivalent of lo que será será...as for me i am a bit interested in why the será happened and how it happened because that is a leading indicator...yes.. manipulation is a leading indicator ..have you ever seen that phrase coined before?...but as db used to be fond of saying..whatever floats your boat...i just try to keep mine floating by any and every means legally available to me...i love floating down the river...fishing...occasionally swimming upstream..to float back down again...and especially like riding my moto..and nice sunsets...i don't like people...some don't like me..

Edited May 18, 2013 by Patuca

[SIUYA 11]

I agree with you Patucca that if you want to hold physical gold as an investment then replicating it with futures is a different proposition, but your 'manipulations' is simply the market and the participants doing what they do, and the intra day spoofing, pulled orders and games like that have always happened in some form (I used to be a market maker, I also often put orders in and pull them out even today) - if you call that manipulation then thats fine, but a 20% move in a gold price - please explain how this has been manipulated?

It seems you are blaming the naked short sellers - if so i repeat my previous post - this sounds like the same BS when equity short sellers were blamed in 2008.

If you are a long term holder then i am not sure you should be worried about the intra day 'manipulations'

If you are a long term holder then it appears you are basing your investment on different analysis and should be welcoming these 'buying' opportunities rather than proclaiming the poor retail guy is getting screwed whilst trading.....I mean how many retail guys get to trade the physical - last i looked it was illiquid and costly and trading is very different to investing so you do it in the most appropriate instrument.

 

As for price action - well its a way of trading, you dont need to understand the manipulations or the reasons why - you trade what you see and not what you think or believe and I think I have seen more money lost by people who think they know whats going on behind the scenes in the market even if their PL tells them the opposite.

 

(I have actually participated in some of your supposed market manipulations before (even though I would just call them buying and selling decisions) in the past in equities whereby we moved some large stocks with large orders and I can tell you all the idiots who came up with all the reasons why the moves occurred, all the stories, the ideas the conspiracy theories and 'news stories' to explain why these moves occurred usually missed the f...n obvious----. It was an order to sell or buy that was large enough that at the time did not find the desired liquidity and so it had to move the price. Period.

Sometimes a fund/client is liquidated, sometimes market models trigger orders, mistakes occur, sometimes people want to take a trade and want to have an impact, other times its simply the vacumm that occurs when sellers rush for the doors at the same time, maybe it was a long term holder exiting, maybe it was someone hedging (do you know when a futures sale is a hedge or a naked short ???))

 

Sooooo please explain how the 20% market drop was manipulated? Or is this just your way of trying to describe a 'trade decision' by either a random participant or a very talented trader?

[bobcollett 10]

I think there was one example of banks renegade on the previous contract to deliver the physical. Ie ABN amro, which was cash settled.

 

I think the scam is that paper sellers can manipulate the price even though they don't have the physical, and if there is no obligation to even deliver it, it's a scam, and a Ponzi scheme.

 

Currently there is an obligation to deliver the gold at comex at the end of June when the futures expire, which hasn't been broken as yet.

 

I also suspect that the gold sellers that liquidated their ETFs are now moving into the Dow jones, another bubble.

 

Why does it take the US 7 years to deliver the gold back to Germany, because they don't have it, and the want it buy it over the bear market at a bargain price.

 

I also suggest you use another name, Lets say Fred, as its nothing to do with me ... PLEASE!

 

Dear Jimbo

I am sorry ... I apoligize for insensitive referals to you.

I hate it when people make stupid remarks about me.

So trying to be smart at your expense is inexcusable.

kind regards

bobc

[SunTrader 10]

Price goes up, price goes down.

 

Some only like to scream manipulation when price goes down.

 

[Patuca 13]

I agree with you Patucca that if you want to hold physical gold as an investment then replicating it with futures is a different proposition, but your 'manipulations' is simply the market and the participants doing what they do, and the intra day spoofing, pulled orders and games like that have always happened in some form (I used to be a market maker, I also often put orders in and pull them out even today) - if you call that manipulation then thats fine, but a 20% move in a gold price - please explain how this has been manipulated?

It seems you are blaming the naked short sellers - if so i repeat my previous post - this sounds like the same BS when equity short sellers were blamed in 2008.

If you are a long term holder then i am not sure you should be worried about the intra day 'manipulations'

If you are a long term holder then it appears you are basing your investment on different analysis and should be welcoming these 'buying' opportunities rather than proclaiming the poor retail guy is getting screwed whilst trading.....I mean how many retail guys get to trade the physical - last i looked it was illiquid and costly and trading is very different to investing so you do it in the most appropriate instrument.

 

As for price action - well its a way of trading, you dont need to understand the manipulations or the reasons why - you trade what you see and not what you think or believe and I think I have seen more money lost by people who think they know whats going on behind the scenes in the market even if their PL tells them the opposite.

 

(I have actually participated in some of your supposed market manipulations before (even though I would just call them buying and selling decisions) in the past in equities whereby we moved some large stocks with large orders and I can tell you all the idiots who came up with all the reasons why the moves occurred, all the stories, the ideas the conspiracy theories and 'news stories' to explain why these moves occurred usually missed the f...n obvious----. It was an order to sell or buy that was large enough that at the time did not find the desired liquidity and so it had to move the price. Period.

Sometimes a fund/client is liquidated, sometimes market models trigger orders, mistakes occur, sometimes people want to take a trade and want to have an impact, other times its simply the vacumm that occurs when sellers rush for the doors at the same time, maybe it was a long term holder exiting, maybe it was someone hedging (do you know when a futures sale is a hedge or a naked short ???))

 

Sooooo please explain how the 20% market drop was manipulated? Or is this just your way of trying to describe a 'trade decision' by either a random participant or a very talented trader?

you were a MM and you don't see how naked short selling is wrong..hurts the markets and can run any company into bankruptcy..you can't see how it can be used to manipulate and unnaturally depresses the real value of a share? The only decision made was to manipulate gold to prop the dollar up. nothing was fair ..or honest about it...nor good for the markets but mark my words it will come back to bite them in the ass with a vengance..IMO time will tell..

[Patuca 13]

Price goes up, price goes down.

 

Some only like to scream manipulation when price goes down.

 

for joy if you are short:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[bobcollett 10]

Hi Siuya

Well I guess if you think receiving dollars when you bought gold is legal, never mind moral.,

what can I say.

To each his own.......

regards

bobc

[SIUYA 11]

Hi Siuya

Well I guess if you think receiving dollars when you bought gold is legal, never mind moral.,

what can I say.

To each his own.......

regards

bobc

 

Bob - this seems to be where people dont actually read or understand what they are buying.

A very quick search on the net (less than 2 seconds typing the words 'redeeming from a gold etf') brought this up.

Read the first paragraph.

Gold ETF - What You Need to Know

 

There were plenty of articles. This one from India was pretty good.

http://www.nsegold.com/KNOW%20ALL%20ABOUT%20GOLD%20ETF.pdf

 

In fact most seem to point it out right at the start

Merk Gold ETF To Be Redeemable In Bullion

 

When it comes to pure futures - you have to ask to convert it and then pay for at the time - and not just have a margined futures contract.

 

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/metals/files/MT-023_NewMetals_WhitePaper_SR.pdf

Page 4 gives a brief summary you can follow up.

 

 

Now I am sure this is clear to people who bother reading their prospectuses or understand what they are buying - but we know from experience that many dont bother.

 

What you are describing is purely and simply the case of the buyer being a lazy idiot in my opinion. the sales man might have been good, he might have been duded and lied to if he asked the right questions, but if he does not know what he is buying - what can we say.

This is a very different position to a fund/etf etc not doing what it says - which technically is a breach of contract, and at extreme examples will see more regulatory or criminal consequences -- but here is a piece of advice for everyone....

 

Those prospectuses, information memorandums, contracts etc - when you read them understand that the disclaimers are not there to protect you - they are designed to protect the seller from you - for when you buy something you say you understand and yet dont.

[SIUYA 11]

you were a MM and you don't see how naked short selling is wrong..hurts the markets and can run any company into bankruptcy..you can't see how it can be used to manipulate and unnaturally depresses the real value of a share? The only decision made was to manipulate gold to prop the dollar up. nothing was fair ..or honest about it...nor good for the markets but mark my words it will come back to bite them in the ass with a vengance..IMO time will tell..

 

First lets make the distinction between equities and futures/options and short selling v naked short selling.

In equities- If you think short selling or naked short selling can run any company into bankruptcy you must have found the secret sauce to investing - most short selling issues come about because of other criminal activities and short selling is only part of it. You need to find the right company - usually they have other issues and are susceptible to it.

you should love short sellers as a value investor - the idea of being able to pick up things below their real value should have you salivating.

(I bet you probably bought Lehman's right because it had real value was not an overlevergaed bloated company - but it was just these stinking short sellers that drove it into the ground. )

Naked short selling in equities is not the devil anti american issues many make it out. the shorters also have to buy it back, and provide liquidity etc, plus as per usual, how many naked short sellers do you reckon make money? or are you wanting to quote the few times naked short sellers have had a good time of it, or were in fact using their shorts as just one part of a scam.

Finally lets not forget that 'manipulation' and other spurious methods also occur (I would guess in far greater numbers and examples) from the long side - or should we forget about this?

 

In fact if you are a totally free market capitalist maybe you should encourage it....and if my memory serves me correctly you are a little bit against governments interfering in markets or your life - except when it suits maybe?

 

......................

but lets stick to futures - as this is the gold thread.

Please explain how the gold market was manipulated (I assume by the short sellers) for the recent move to prop up the dollar? where have these people been the last ten years?

The mechanism by which it was done and for who?

So far all you have done is make a claim with zero evidence of how its done, or why.....

[MightyMouse 12]

Naked short selling in equities is not the devil anti american issues many make it out. the shorters also have to buy it back, and provide liquidity etc, plus as per usual, how many naked short sellers do you reckon make money? or are you wanting to quote the few times naked short sellers have had a good time of it, or were in fact using their shorts as just one part of a scam.

 

Hey keep us poor Americans out of it. It wasn't our invention. We are the newest kid on the block.

[SunTrader 10]

Just one of many LONG scam examples is Enron.

 

It was "worth" $30-$40 but probably was as high $80-$90 before the s... hit the fan.

 

Nobody complained on the way up but when it crashed plenty who were fooled bitched.

 

Once again price direction is a two way street.

 

Deal with it, or stay out.

[Patuca 13]

Just one of many LONG scam examples is Enron.

 

It was "worth" $30-$40 but probably was as high $80-$90 before the s... hit the fan.

 

Nobody complained on the way up but when it crashed plenty who were fooled bitched.

 

Once again price direction is a two way street.

 

Deal with it, or stay out.

agreed...but that doesn't mean there no manipulation. anyone that thinks there is no manipulation by deep pockets is very naive...

[Patuca 13]

First lets make the distinction between equities and futures/options and short selling v naked short selling.

In equities- If you think short selling or naked short selling can run any company into bankruptcy you must have found the secret sauce to investing - most short selling issues come about because of other criminal activities and short selling is only part of it. You need to find the right company - usually they have other issues and are susceptible to it.

you should love short sellers as a value investor - the idea of being able to pick up things below their real value should have you salivating.

(I bet you probably bought Lehman's right because it had real value was not an overlevergaed bloated company - but it was just these stinking short sellers that drove it into the ground. )

Naked short selling in equities is not the devil anti american issues many make it out. the shorters also have to buy it back, and provide liquidity etc, plus as per usual, how many naked short sellers do you reckon make money? or are you wanting to quote the few times naked short sellers have had a good time of it, or were in fact using their shorts as just one part of a scam.

Finally lets not forget that 'manipulation' and other spurious methods also occur (I would guess in far greater numbers and examples) from the long side - or should we forget about this?

 

In fact if you are a totally free market capitalist maybe you should encourage it....and if my memory serves me correctly you are a little bit against governments interfering in markets or your life - except when it suits maybe?

 

......................

but lets stick to futures - as this is the gold thread.

Please explain how the gold market was manipulated (I assume by the short sellers) for the recent move to prop up the dollar? where have these people been the last ten years?

The mechanism by which it was done and for who?

So far all you have done is make a claim with zero evidence of how its done, or why.....

if you were a MM you know full well exactly how naked short selling works and the damage it does..that it is dishonest and a scam and a ponzi scheme...you don't need any explanation from me or anyone else...where you a MM back in the days of the soes bandits?? you also know that the present price in p.m. was manipulated and still is. why does germany want their gold and why can't we give it to them in an orderly and timely manner? you know exactly why.......of course MM's provided a service and provided liquidity but they also ripped people off left and right and every damn chance they got...to say deal with price or get out doesn't make it right...actually i think you just might see manipulation...as ..well..something all normal..and part and parcial with honest price action and normal market pressures. granted it is a mental battle and in many ways an intelligence game of who can outsmart who but it is unfair when some get advantage over others to make the same decision...you know exactly what i am talking about...Gov intervention in the markets is what gives the MM and exchanges the upper hand they need to manipulate the markets..i am not complaining i am just saying that manipulation takes place every day in practically all markets...and to deny that is to deny what is obvious...

manipulation occurs from both long and short side everyday..you already know know this...

 

a brokerage involved in naked short selling can ...go broke..... and never buy a damn thing back....never ever cover for selling something that didn't exist. i leave you to figure than one out...

Edited May 19, 2013 by Patuca

[SIUYA 11]

how naked short selling works and the damage it does..that it is dishonest and a scam and a ponzi scheme.....................

days of the soes bandits?? ............

game of who can outsmart who but it is unfair when some get advantage over others to make the same decision...you know exactly what i am talking about...Gov intervention in the markets is what gives the MM and exchanges the upper hand they need to manipulate the markets.............

a brokerage involved in naked short selling can ...go broke..... and never buy a damn thing back....never ever cover for selling something that didn't exist. i leave you to figure than one out...

 

I suggest a new thread out of the gold one to discuss such things as above.

 

As for Germany not getting there gold back - stick it it there as well. It might be an interesting thread.

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-markets/16458-markets-manipulation.html#post180314

[Patuca 13]

Suiya ...maybe you don't know about naked shorting?...but then again maybe you do..you seem to take up for it??..per your post #440....maybe you don't know about manipulation on both long and short side??....maybe you don't know about manipulation on a daily..weekly..monthly...yearly..basis?? ..but i would have thought that having been a MM you would have at least SEEN some of this stuff i mentioned in my previous posts incluiding post #444?? maybe i was wrong.....who knows...only you know..and i guess you ain't telling....

Edited May 19, 2013 by Patuca

[SunTrader 10]

The manipulation :rofl: continues tonight -$15.

 

Or what others referred to as ........ :doh: the trend.

[Patuca 13]

The manipulation :rofl: continues tonight -$15.

 

Or what others referred to as ........ :doh: the trend.

what about the manipulated trend? sounds abit more accurate to me..:rofl::rofl:

[SunTrader 10]

No Love for Precious Metals—Silver Gets Slammed

 

CNBC.com | Monday, 20 May 2013 | 1:49 AM ET

 

First it was gold, and now it's silver.

 

The metal fell victim to heavy selling on Monday, dragging gold down with it, on U.S. dollar strength and as investors turned more cautious on precious metals as an alternate investment, said experts.

 

"We feel silver weakness has been a liquidation trade as investors grow increasingly wary of precious metals and traders are forced to close positions to meet margin calls elsewhere," said Stan Shamu, strategist at trading firm IG Markets.

 

Silver slumped over 4 percent on Monday to $21.30 an ounce, leading gold down lower by 1 percent to $1,344 an ounce. At one point silver hit a low of $20.30, down 8.8 percent from the start of trade on Monday.

 

Shamu is not ruling out further downside for the precious metal, noting that he sees support at $20, a key psychological barrier for investors.

 

Warren Gilman, chairman & CEO of investment firm CEF Holdings, agrees that silver could face further downside pressure, even below $20.

 

"When we have short-term volatile trends, silver acts like gold, only it's more volatile, so it's not a surprise to see it come off," he said.

 

According to a Citi report, if silver makes a rebound back towards the $27-28 level it will present renewed selling opportunities.

 

"Looking further forward, after nearly a decade of rising silver prices, we expect the combination of growth in mine supply and sluggish demand to continue to keep silver prices under pressure, though volatility will remain a characteristic of the market," the Citi analysts wrote.

 

Gold to Follow Lower

 

Silver, according to IG Markets, is a lead indicator of gold, and thus, the firm believes the yellow metal will extend its declines.

 

Hedge funds and money managers are increasing their bearish bets against gold, according to data from the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission. Gold futures saw 74,432 short positions as of May 14 - the largest short position since records began in June 2006 - compared with 67,374 a week earlier.

 

A combination of factors including strength in the greenback, absence of strong inflationary pressures and robust performance of global equity markets has lessened the appeal for the precious metal in recent weeks.

 

Gold, which suffered its biggest one-day fall in three decades on April 15, is still searching for a base said Gilman of CEF Holdings, which is becoming more difficult in the face of dollar strength. A stronger U.S. dollar is negative for gold because it makes it expensive for holders of other currencies.

 

The yellow metal will fall into the neighborhood of $1,250 at which point support will likely kick in, he said.

 

"There's still a lot of confusion regarding precious metals. The market is bifurcated between three groups - the true believers who aren't worried about short-term price movements, the Warren Buffetts who don't believe gold has any value whatsoever, and in between, the financial buyers," Gilman said.

 

"Today, what you see is a classic unwinding of trades by financial investors...but you're not seeing selling by the believers in gold," he added.

 

+ + +

 

Those looking for excuses such as manipulation ignore reality at their own peril.

[zdo 20]

On the spec trades, as ‘planned’ at

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/market-analysis/12054-gold-bullish-bearish-44.html#post179017

was stopped out last Thu near 22.30

and, as planned, took on three loads at ~21.67 and one at ~20.67 last night – each load scaled arithmetically larger than previous…

Have two more scaled load limit orders at 19.67 and 18.67 to reach full allocation for this trade. May have to wait a while… or later, may have put stops above (oco’ing the limits) to fill the allocation instead ... I remain overall bullish on PM’s … but this ‘correction’ may last for some time… it has already become a long drawn out affair... largely a rotation out of etf's, etc. into physicals

 

…

On the hedge side… won’t discuss past 'that’s a whole different world'…

 

…

 

regarding manipulation, etc...

who is clinging to an old, collapsing world view ?

who (...besides the fed ) has the 'funds' to create mega paper shorts at will ?

who wants you to believe falling PM prices in relation to fiat means PM's are losing their purchasing power ?

who ... http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-20/guest-post-new-abnormal ?

 

 

…

Won’t be around much for a while …Taking off for 5 - 6 weeks … may check in once or twice...

 

all the best.

 

zdo

Edited May 20, 2013 by zdo