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Rande Howell

The Mind You Brought to Trading is Not the MInd That Brings Success in Trading

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... It is their (learned or inherent, I don't know) detachment or dispassion that allows them to "see" the market in such a way that they are able to extract from the markets....

 

Being able to "see" the market will not put 1$ in someones account....It is the ability to "act" that causes extraction.

 

Trade Well...

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because it is necessary to attune to the emotionality of the markets and take advantage of the emotion traders are bringing to the dance. In dispassion, detachment, or impartiality is becomes much more possible to "see" or sense others fear and/or greed based on market conditions.

 

cross talk (as in double talk not as in angry) maybe Rande but ---- this is not what I try and do at all.

 

While people talk of the mood of the market, and give it emotional context of what a few people are thinking), if I am short term trading I could not care less about trying to understand or read anyone else's emotions (the market as a whole for me has no emotions).

For me others fear and greed have nothing to do with it. I want what i consider to be good entry levels, and then I want the market to go my way - if anything the detachment is to NOT think about what anyone else is thinking but to actually just see what is happening in the realm of possibilities and probabilites of movement.

 

If anything it is the thinking about others that causes problems - questions such as "what if the market turns from here, what if others rush for the door, how do i pay the bills if I dont take this profit, what will the boys down the pub say when i tell them i had a ten bagger today" etc...

when I am trading at my best - the simplest thing to answer when asked what do you think is - I dunno, the market looks likes its still going up, down, sideways and then to act on that, based on the thinking that is done either before the market or in your strategy and tactics development.....not in the application of them. (One reason I would still like to automate more)

 

simplistic maybe but thats my POV and it may differ from others.(does that make me a trading sociopath??? :))

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SpearPointTrader

 

I'm with SUIYA on this one regarding "detachment from reality". In the practice of mindfulness, there is a stepping back and observing from a dispassionate perspective. That may represent a very different way of seeing the world -- kinda like your detachment. For most traders this sense of impartiality has to be learned, so it is a deviation from the historical way they have interacted with the world.

 

If you read this forum, really read what SUIYA, MM, and GOSU say about this. Take their comments in the context of trading, rather than other domains of action. It is their (learned or inherent, I don't know) detachment or dispassion that allows them to "see" the market in such a way that they are able to extract from the markets. At least, this is my take on it. I don't know for a fact that they are successful traders -- but I believe so based on their presentation.

 

In my work I am striving to teach traders how to turn or and turn off this quality. Turn on this perspective when trading because it is necessary to attune to the emotionality of the markets and take advantage of the emotion traders are bringing to the dance. In dispassion, detachment, or impartiality is becomes much more possible to "see" or sense others fear and/or greed based on market conditions. This is not a state of mind that will bring success in other relationships in other domains though. It's a necessary element in trading mind though.

 

Rande Howell

gm Rande,

 

I don't disagree with "detachment from reality" but I wonder if it is the answer or just a stepping stone to a better frame of mind and way of life..

 

As you say Rande, 'detachment' needs to be applied very selectively otherwise the outcome can be very unpredictable.

 

Traders are always looking for balance/ imbalance ... it is balance in the market that give us direction [trends as some people call them] and it is imbalance that gives us reversals.

 

Since markets are the collective results of thousands / millions of human minds,emotions and feelings, it is probably fair to surmise that we are trading ourselves ... because, if we do not trade ourselves then who are we trading.

 

And so if we are seeking positions of balance/ imbalance within the markets, our best strategy would be to come from a position of balance within us.

This is quite different to 'detachment' .. well to me it is.. but IMO we need to detach first in order to seek balance... I don't mean that one follows the other, I mean that detachment enables the pursuit of balance.

As with everything worth having, the more we pursue it, the more we push it away and so we come back to that tricky skill of relaxing back into our own progress.

 

Right now, our World is in a dangerous state of imbalance and no amount of detachment is going to put Humpty Dumpty back together again ... quite the reverse in fact.

We are living somewhere between a Greek tragedy and a soap opera and despite all the lies and the rhetoric, we still have yet to reach the turning point ... let alone the path to a better life... yes, we can forget 'recovery' this is a brave new world we are forging for ourselves.

 

IMO, the People who will enjoy life and prosper the most are those who appreciate the value of balance and it would be nice to think that the people of this Forum would be apart of this new prosperity...

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Extraction wtf.

 

No, everyone is now a miner (... almost - a few still are dentists… )

we are digging in the emotional darkness and the minds that entered the mines are not the minds that extract from the mines ;)

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Btw,according to Capital Spread CEO 80% clients are losers.A bit better than the often quoted 90-95%

This figure could be further reduced if you listen to the reasons he gave recently for the losing clients being losers.

1- Overtrading.

2- Using too much leverage

3 -Allowing large losses to build and taking small profits too quickly

4- Trading in several markets they don't really understand instead of concentrating on one or two

Pretty much the usual cliche's that most beginners insist on ignoring.

 

you mean????.... noooo!!!

tell me you are kidding.........

all those things they say and then you mean we do them in reality.......

(4 is ok if you have enough experience)

 

my take - 1 and 2 occur, then 3 and 4 occur (maybe in reverse order)

 

(today - as I get back into it after a hiatus and I am trying to get some rhythm back (but it is still no excuse) I

was definitively guilty of 1, not of 2, not of 3, not of 4....and low and behold in a crappy EURUSD since 2pm I now have a short position of 400,000 EUR

 

(dont ask why a short for reasons, how or where....I am actually not that bearish and dont have a view - its just the position I have ended up with)

 

that worst case might cost me $125 for the day.......let it ride......who cares what you think (;) ;) ;) I just want to see it go down, otherwise I cut it.

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Mind set is the main difference between success, or failure in this business. Facing down the barrel of a gun, and calmly telling the guy holding he still owes you money and he'd better pay up or else, requires a very unique mindset.

 

* * *

 

Are you serious? LOL...there's nothing unique about that mindset. It's called stupidity.

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As usual, when your argument fails the test of common sense and logic, an answer like yours above is the sort I would expect.

 

One of the draws of this site is the unscripted comedy improv that some of you generate on a daily basis.

 

First congratulations....you finally figured out that the reason for my trade isn't about logic....its about the emotional reaction that the crowd exhibits when Mr. Bernanke says something that they A. agree with, B. disagree with, or C. are surprised to hear.

 

Frankly the older I get the less patient I am with naivete, but in this case I am going to go "with it" a while longer assuming that you aren't stupid but perhaps developmentally delayed...

 

"Logic" works up to a point, but at some point, those of us who do this for a living figure out that what always works is to get inside the heads of those who can move markets, anticipate what they are going to do correctly and get in front of that decision making process. During the time that I worked an overnight desk trading the Euro and Bond, this is how I made a living....my boss would characterize this process as "thinking a couple of steps ahead of the crowd"...

 

Now it doesn't work for everyone....not everyone can do it....it may not fit YOUR style and you may well think that those of us who do it are "crazy" (as you put it), but that doesn't invalidate the process at all....and the fact that the village idiots step and congratulate you at the end of your comment would make me suspicious that I was missing the point...

 

Good luck in the markets

Steve

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One of the draws of this site is the unscripted comedy improv that some of you generate on a daily basis.

 

First congratulations....you finally figured out that the reason for my trade isn't about logic....its about the emotional reaction that the crowd exhibits when Mr. Bernanke says something that they A. agree with, B. disagree with, or C. are surprised to hear.

 

Frankly the older I get the less patient I am with naivete, but in this case I am going to go "with it" a while longer assuming that you aren't stupid but perhaps developmentally delayed...

 

"Logic" works up to a point, but at some point, those of us who do this for a living figure out that what always works is to get inside the heads of those who can move markets, anticipate what they are going to do correctly and get in front of that decision making process. During the time that I worked an overnight desk trading the Euro and Bond, this is how I made a living....my boss would characterize this process as "thinking a couple of steps ahead of the crowd"...

 

Now it doesn't work for everyone....not everyone can do it....it may not fit YOUR style and you may well think that those of us who do it are "crazy" (as you put it), but that doesn't invalidate the process at all....and the fact that the village idiots step and congratulate you at the end of your comment would make me suspicious that I was missing the point...

 

Good luck in the markets

Steve

 

I was wrong to doubt you steve; how foolish of this naive, village idiot to question the "professional" who posts the best hindsight charts on the forum. Keep them coming! If you ever grow a pair and decide to post even one live trade chart per, say, 10 hindsight ones, let me know and I'll join you in a thread for that very purpose. Until then, the BS-o-meter is off the charts for you, "professional."

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Appreciate the continued entertainment princess.

 

I'll give it another shot....you suggest that trading based on what a person says is "crazy"...but I just typed a few carefully chosen words and zoom...you could not keep from posting your reply..

 

Is this too difficult to get?....I trade events based on the crowd's emotional response to WORDS

 

If I can make you respond, why does it seem unreasonable that others do the same when they hear certain words from Mr. Bernanke?

 

Duh!!!!!

 

Ah well, back to work.

 

Best to everyone

Steve

Edited by steve46

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Appreciate the continued entertainment princess.

I'll give it another shot....you suggest that trading based on what a person says is "crazy"...but I just typed a few carefully chosen words and zoom...you could not keep from posting your reply..

Is this too difficult to get?....I trade events based on the crowd's emotional response to WORDS

If I can make you respond, why does it seem unreasonable that others do the same when they hear certain words from Mr. Bernanke?

Duh!!!!!

Ah well, back to work.

Best to everyone

Steve

 

gm Steve,

 

What you are demonstrating is one of life's great advantages and that is to put yourself in the other guy's head.

It is not easily done and is beyond the scope of most people because they simply cannot let go of their own thoughts and so they wind up with a mish-mash of ideas... in fact they drop themselves into an even deeper mess.

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usually there is only one village idiot - they provide the comedy fodder for the others, and the best part of it is that the village idiot is usually the one with blinkers on and thinks that everyone else but them is the fool.

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Appreciate the continued entertainment princess.

 

Princess? Your ego must be taking quite a blow to use such personal insults, that are in no way related to the conversation at hand.

 

If I can make you respond, why does it seem unreasonable that others do the same when they hear certain words from Mr. Bernanke?

 

 

I have no doubt that some people bought because of what Bernanke said. But there are many reason why people can buy: price touches a moving average, time elapses without XYZ happening, a support level holds, etc. I still do not think Bernanke said anything that the market had not already taken into consideration, which is the main reason why someone would buy. Sure, people can buy if they like what someone says, but the rest of the market has already heard "old news" and Bernanke did not really say anything new that the market had not already priced in. Just my opinion of course. My point was that one might as well say, "the market hit the 5 minute 20EMA, and traders bought because of that." I think that's kind of ludicrous, but to each his own. I only said this:

 

You are presuming that because the market moved when he said something, that his comment was the cause, or impetus which caused traders to move the market. Perhaps it was, but one does not imply the other.

 

Good luck steve, and the invitation still stands for you to open a thread, or post in an existing one, an actual trade you take, when you take it. I think maybe once I've ever seen you post a chart of a trade that did not work for you, compared with at least a hundred or so charts of trades that you took several hours before that worked to perfection. A post of a chart showing a trade you take, in real time, would be refreshing, or even a chart showing a losing trade and how something didn't work would be helpful. But you have too much to lose to do that I'm afraid, as you have built yourself up too much, so you probably won't. But for someone who has never posted a chart of a losing trade and only posts winners, it's quite suspicious that you won't simply take that screen capture when you take the trade, instead of waiting an hour or two and then showing how obvious it was that it was going to work.

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Josh

 

You got driven around like a stolen chevy...too bad champ....but thats how the world works and those of us who have figured it out make a living trading off the information, while you whine and challenge impotently......you see you don't mean that much to me.....you can't get in my head....because I already know where I stand with the people who DO mean something to me.

 

Get over it and join the rest of the adults (or not). Its up to you

 

Back to work (Good luck everyone)

 

Steve

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Josh

 

You got driven around like a stolen chevy...too bad champ....but thats how the world works and those of us who have figured it out make a living trading off the information, while you whine and challenge impotently......you see you don't mean that much to me.....you can't get in my head....because I already know where I stand with the people who DO mean something to me.

 

Get over it and join the rest of the adults (or not). Its up to you

 

Back to work (Good luck everyone)

 

Steve

 

Let's try a new approach steve -- how about, we give each other another chance; I'll forget and forgive your rude comments to me, and you forget and forgive my rude comments to you? Let's approach this like men, human beings, actually try to get along despite differences in our personalities? Kind of like starting over. How does that sound?

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Not sure what happened to the thread, but it went from "Jack/Jill (whomever) not knowing how to trade and ideas on how to help him/her" to a Friday UFC match between Steve and Josh...

 

I hope the thread can get back on track?

 

CYP

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Not sure what happened to the thread, but it went from "Jack/Jill (whomever) not knowing how to trade and ideas on how to help him/her" to a Friday UFC match between Steve and Josh...

 

I hope the thread can get back on track?

 

CYP

 

Sorry CYP, I will take the blame for that as I was the one who initially replied to him. I won't post anymore on this thread and sorry to Rande for derailing it.

 

Consider it done Josh

 

Sounds good steve, thanks.

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In my opinion the comments all relate to the concept of taking the "blinders" off

 

I am a bottom line kind of person...for me that bottom line is simple

 

Most people swim in a sea of emotions they don't understand...if you get some visibility as to how that works, you have an potential advantage in any activity you engage in....not just trading.

 

Personally the idea of archetypes doesn't appeal to me...I prefer a direct path to my goal....

 

Back to work

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I see, so to clarify for those who may not speak English...what I am saying is that ALL the comments relate either directly or indirectly to the subject of the thread...YOU sir or madam may not understand that...

Edited by steve46

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Consider it done but ......

 

us fkn btchz go all adhomino…

... the mind you brought to posting is not the mind that...:roll eyes:

 

 

 

btw…when it comes to understanding certain ___cepts (like “archetypes”), words on a page cannot convey the more in-depth nuance and meanings. Sustained work with them can actually be a more direct path than is a “direct "bottom line" path” … just sayin’… :):2c:

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First congratulations....you finally figured out that the reason for my trade isn't about logic....its about the emotional reaction that the crowd exhibits when Mr. Bernanke says something that they A. agree with, B. disagree with, or C. are surprised to hear.

 

Steve

 

Your trade was not about logic, but it does lead you to an A or B or C conclusion. As a cynical onlooker, I would suggest that there are a lot more actions and reactions that might occur from a Bernanke comment than your non-logical A or B or C reactions, but at the same time I am not suggesting that you have cataloged them all in your short response. However, how do you know which reaction it is going to be to take advantage of your ability to be a few steps ahead of the crowd?

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    • A custom Semi-Log Scale Oscillator indicator is now available for MT5 on Metaquotes website and directly in the MT5 platform. https://www.mql5.com/en/market/product/114705 This indicator is an anchored semi-logarithmic scale oscillator. A logarithmic scale is widely used by professional data scientists to more accurately map information collected throughout a timeframe, in the same way that MT5 maps out price data. In fact, the underlying logic of this indicator was freely obtained from an overseas biotech scientist. A log-log chart displays logarithmic values on both the x (horizontal) and y (vertical) axes, which generally produces a straight line that points up, down, or remains flat. A straight line is not very useful for trading markets because such a straight line is so smoothed that actual price values that appear over time are very far away from the line study. In contrast, a semi-log chart is only logged on one axis--generally, the y axis. Such a semi-log chart is well suited for trading markets because the time (x) axis is preserved in its original form while at the same time, providing a graduated y scale where the distance between price increments progressively increases as price rises higher (and decreases as price falls lower). This allows us to establish a zero level for a low price, clearly view trends on straighter angles, and clearly observe amplified price spikes at high prices. Accordingly, this indicator employs a semi-log scale on the y axis only. This indicator is anchored because it allows you to specify a start time for calculation of price bars. The settings are as follows: Year.Month.Day Hour:Minute - defaults to 1970.01.01 00:01 - if left on default setting, the indicator automatically detects the earliest price bar in chart history--even where the year 1970 is not in history. Notes appear in the indicator settings window. Size of first pip step to log - defaults to 135 - this default is suitable for higher timeframes such a MN1 (monthly), while 5 is suitable for lower timeframes such as M1 (minute). Ultimately, optimal settings will depend on the timeframe that you attach the indicator to, the level of price volatility within that timeframe, and start time that you choose. Remember... The semi-log formula calculates from low to high, so your start time must always be a major swing low. Again, notes appear in the indicator settings window. The standard (built-in) MT5 indicators that can be applied to the "Previous indicator's data" can be applied to this indicator. Indicator lines (indicator buffers) can be called with iCustom in Expert Advisors created by Expert Advisor builder software or custom coded Expert Advisors. The log scale Open, High, Low, and Close prices are buffers: No empty values; and No repainting.
    • A custom Gann Candles indicator is now available for MT5 on the Metaquotes website and directly in the MT5 platform. https://www.mql5.com/en/market/product/126398 This Gann Candles indicator incorporates a series of W.D. Gann's strategies into a single trading indicator. Gann was a legendary trader who lived from 1878 to 1955. He started out as a cotton farmer and started trading at age 24 in 1902. His strategies included geometry, astronomy, astrology, times cycles, and ancient math. Although Gann wrote several books, none of them contain all of his strategies so it takes years of studying to learn them. He was also a devout scholar of the Bible and the ancient Greek and Egyptian cultures, and he was a 33rd degree Freemason of the Scottish Rite. In an effort to simplify what I believe are the best of Gann's strategies, I reduced them into one indicator that simply colors your preexisting price bars when those strategies are in-sync versus out-of-sync. This greatly reduces potential chart clutter. Also, I reduced the number of input settings down to only two: FastFilter, and SlowFilter Both FastFilter and SlowFilter must be set to 5 or more, as noted in the Inputs tab upon attaching the indicator to your chart. Gann Candles works on regular time-based charts (M5, M15, M20, etc.) and custom charts (Renko, range bars, etc.). The indicator does not repaint. When using the default settings, blue candles form bullish price patterns, gray candles form flat (sideways) price patterns, and white candles form bearish price patterns. The simplest way to trade Gann Candles is to buy at the close of a blue candle and exit at the close of a gray candle, and then sell at the close of a white candle and exit at the close of a gray candle.
    • A custom Anchored VWAP with Standard Deviation Bands indicator for MT5 is now available on the Metaquotes website and directly through the MT5 platform. https://www.mql5.com/en/market/product/99389 The volume weighted average price indicator is a line study indicator that shows in the main chart window of MT5. The indicator monitors the typical price and then trading volume used to automatically push the indicator line toward heavily traded prices. These prices are where the most contracts (or lots) have been traded. Then those weighted prices are averaged over a look back period, and the indicator shows the line study at those pushed prices. The indicator in this post allows the trader to set the daily start time of that look back period. This indicator automatically shows 5 daily look back periods: the currently forming period, and the 4 previous days based on that same start time. For this reason, this indicator is intended for intraday trading only. The indicator automatically shows vertical daily start time separator lines for those days as well. Both typical prices and volumes are accumulated throughout the day, and processed throughout the day. Important update: v102 of this indicator allows you to anchor the start of the VWAP and bands to the most recent major high or low, even when that high or low appears in your chart several days ago. This is how institutional traders and liquidity providers often trade markets with the VWAP. This indicator also shows 6 standard deviation bands, similarly to the way that a Bollinger Bands indicator shows such bands. The trader is able to set 3 individual standard deviation multiplier values above the volume weighted average price line study, and 3 individual standard deviation multiplier values below the volume weighted average price line study. Higher multiplier values will generate rapidly expanding standard deviation bands because again, the indicator is cumulative. The following indicator parameters can be changed by the trader in the indicator Inputs tab: Volume Type [defaults to: Real volume] - Set to Tick volume for over-the-counter markets such as most forex markets. Real volume is an additional setting for centralized markets such as the United States Chicago Mercantile Exchange. VWAP Start Hour [defaults to: 07] - Set according to broker's or broker-dealer's MT5 server time in 24 hour format. For example, in the New York, United States time zone, 07 is approximately the London, United Kingdom business open hour. VWAP Start Minute [defaults to: 00] - Set according to broker's or broker-dealer's MT5 server time in 24 hour format. For example, 00 is on the hour with no delay of minutes within that hour. StdDev Multiplier 1 [defaults to: 1.618] - Set desired standard deviation distance between the volume weighted average price line study and its nearest upper and lower bands. For example, 1.618 is a basic Fibonacci ratio. Some traders prefer 1.000 or 1.250 here. StdDev Multiplier 2 [defaults to: 3.236] - Set desired standard deviation distance between the volume weighted average price line study and its middle upper and lower bands. For example, 3.236 is 1.618 (above) + 1.618. Some traders prefer 2.000 or 1.500 here. StdDev Multiplier 3 [defaults to: 4.854] - Set desired standard deviation distance between the volume weighted average price line study and its furthest upper and lower bands. For example, 4.854 is 1.618 (above) + 3.236 (above). Some traders prefer 3.000 or 2.000 here. VWAP Color [defaults to: Aqua] - Set desired VWAP line study color. This color automatically sets the color of the start time separators as well. SD1 Color [defaults to: White] - Set desired color of nearest upper and lower standard deviation lines. SD2 Color [defaults to: White] - Set desired color of middle upper and lower standard deviation lines. SD3 Color [defaults to: White] - Set desired color of furthest upper and lower standard deviation lines. Just to clarify, popular standard deviation bands settings are: 1.618, 3.236, and 4.854; or 1.000, 2.000, and 3.000; or 1.250, 1.500, and 2.000. Examples of usage *: In a ranging (sideways) market, enter a trade at the extremes of the standard deviation bands (SD3) and exit when price returns to the VWAP line study. Trade between SD1Pos and SD1 Neg, alternately buying and selling from one standard deviation line to the other. In a trending (rising or falling) market, enter a buy when a price bar opens above the VWAP line study, and exit at the nearest standard deviation band above (SD1Pos). Optionally, repeat the same trade but substitute SD1Pos for the VWAP, and SD2Pos for SD1. Reverse for sell; or Trade all lines (VWAP, SD1Pos, SD2Pos, and SD3Pos) in the same way. Again, reverse for sell. Indicator lines (indicator buffers) can be called with iCustom in Expert Advisors created by Expert Advisor builder software or custom coded Expert Advisors: No empty values; and No repainting.
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