The Mind You Brought to Trading is Not the MInd That Brings Success in Trading

[BearBullTrading 10]

 

... It is their (learned or inherent, I don't know) detachment or dispassion that allows them to "see" the market in such a way that they are able to extract from the markets....

 

Being able to "see" the market will not put 1$ in someones account....It is the ability to "act" that causes extraction.

 

Trade Well...

[SIUYA 11]

because it is necessary to attune to the emotionality of the markets and take advantage of the emotion traders are bringing to the dance. In dispassion, detachment, or impartiality is becomes much more possible to "see" or sense others fear and/or greed based on market conditions.

 

cross talk (as in double talk not as in angry) maybe Rande but ---- this is not what I try and do at all.

 

While people talk of the mood of the market, and give it emotional context of what a few people are thinking), if I am short term trading I could not care less about trying to understand or read anyone else's emotions (the market as a whole for me has no emotions).

For me others fear and greed have nothing to do with it. I want what i consider to be good entry levels, and then I want the market to go my way - if anything the detachment is to NOT think about what anyone else is thinking but to actually just see what is happening in the realm of possibilities and probabilites of movement.

 

If anything it is the thinking about others that causes problems - questions such as "what if the market turns from here, what if others rush for the door, how do i pay the bills if I dont take this profit, what will the boys down the pub say when i tell them i had a ten bagger today" etc...

when I am trading at my best - the simplest thing to answer when asked what do you think is - I dunno, the market looks likes its still going up, down, sideways and then to act on that, based on the thinking that is done either before the market or in your strategy and tactics development.....not in the application of them. (One reason I would still like to automate more)

 

simplistic maybe but thats my POV and it may differ from others.(does that make me a trading sociopath??? )

[johnw 10]

SpearPointTrader

 

I'm with SUIYA on this one regarding "detachment from reality". In the practice of mindfulness, there is a stepping back and observing from a dispassionate perspective. That may represent a very different way of seeing the world -- kinda like your detachment. For most traders this sense of impartiality has to be learned, so it is a deviation from the historical way they have interacted with the world.

 

If you read this forum, really read what SUIYA, MM, and GOSU say about this. Take their comments in the context of trading, rather than other domains of action. It is their (learned or inherent, I don't know) detachment or dispassion that allows them to "see" the market in such a way that they are able to extract from the markets. At least, this is my take on it. I don't know for a fact that they are successful traders -- but I believe so based on their presentation.

 

In my work I am striving to teach traders how to turn or and turn off this quality. Turn on this perspective when trading because it is necessary to attune to the emotionality of the markets and take advantage of the emotion traders are bringing to the dance. In dispassion, detachment, or impartiality is becomes much more possible to "see" or sense others fear and/or greed based on market conditions. This is not a state of mind that will bring success in other relationships in other domains though. It's a necessary element in trading mind though.

 

Rande Howell

gm Rande,

 

I don't disagree with "detachment from reality" but I wonder if it is the answer or just a stepping stone to a better frame of mind and way of life..

 

As you say Rande, 'detachment' needs to be applied very selectively otherwise the outcome can be very unpredictable.

 

Traders are always looking for balance/ imbalance ... it is balance in the market that give us direction [trends as some people call them] and it is imbalance that gives us reversals.

 

Since markets are the collective results of thousands / millions of human minds,emotions and feelings, it is probably fair to surmise that we are trading ourselves ... because, if we do not trade ourselves then who are we trading.

 

And so if we are seeking positions of balance/ imbalance within the markets, our best strategy would be to come from a position of balance within us.

This is quite different to 'detachment' .. well to me it is.. but IMO we need to detach first in order to seek balance... I don't mean that one follows the other, I mean that detachment enables the pursuit of balance.

As with everything worth having, the more we pursue it, the more we push it away and so we come back to that tricky skill of relaxing back into our own progress.

 

Right now, our World is in a dangerous state of imbalance and no amount of detachment is going to put Humpty Dumpty back together again ... quite the reverse in fact.

We are living somewhere between a Greek tragedy and a soap opera and despite all the lies and the rhetoric, we still have yet to reach the turning point ... let alone the path to a better life... yes, we can forget 'recovery' this is a brave new world we are forging for ourselves.

 

IMO, the People who will enjoy life and prosper the most are those who appreciate the value of balance and it would be nice to think that the people of this Forum would be apart of this new prosperity...

[SunTrader 10]

Is everyone now a Dentist? Extraction wtf.

[zdo 20]

Extraction wtf.

 

No, everyone is now a miner (... almost - a few still are dentists… )

we are digging in the emotional darkness and the minds that entered the mines are not the minds that extract from the mines

[SIUYA 11]

Btw,according to Capital Spread CEO 80% clients are losers.A bit better than the often quoted 90-95%

This figure could be further reduced if you listen to the reasons he gave recently for the losing clients being losers.

1- Overtrading.

2- Using too much leverage

3 -Allowing large losses to build and taking small profits too quickly

4- Trading in several markets they don't really understand instead of concentrating on one or two

Pretty much the usual cliche's that most beginners insist on ignoring.

 

you mean????.... noooo!!!

tell me you are kidding.........

all those things they say and then you mean we do them in reality.......

(4 is ok if you have enough experience)

 

my take - 1 and 2 occur, then 3 and 4 occur (maybe in reverse order)

 

(today - as I get back into it after a hiatus and I am trying to get some rhythm back (but it is still no excuse) I

was definitively guilty of 1, not of 2, not of 3, not of 4....and low and behold in a crappy EURUSD since 2pm I now have a short position of 400,000 EUR

 

(dont ask why a short for reasons, how or where....I am actually not that bearish and dont have a view - its just the position I have ended up with)

 

that worst case might cost me $125 for the day.......let it ride......who cares what you think ( ;) I just want to see it go down, otherwise I cut it.

[gosu 10]

Mind set is the main difference between success, or failure in this business. Facing down the barrel of a gun, and calmly telling the guy holding he still owes you money and he'd better pay up or else, requires a very unique mindset.

 

* * *

 

Are you serious? LOL...there's nothing unique about that mindset. It's called stupidity.

[steve46 12]

As usual, when your argument fails the test of common sense and logic, an answer like yours above is the sort I would expect.

 

One of the draws of this site is the unscripted comedy improv that some of you generate on a daily basis.

 

First congratulations....you finally figured out that the reason for my trade isn't about logic....its about the emotional reaction that the crowd exhibits when Mr. Bernanke says something that they A. agree with, B. disagree with, or C. are surprised to hear.

 

Frankly the older I get the less patient I am with naivete, but in this case I am going to go "with it" a while longer assuming that you aren't stupid but perhaps developmentally delayed...

 

"Logic" works up to a point, but at some point, those of us who do this for a living figure out that what always works is to get inside the heads of those who can move markets, anticipate what they are going to do correctly and get in front of that decision making process. During the time that I worked an overnight desk trading the Euro and Bond, this is how I made a living....my boss would characterize this process as "thinking a couple of steps ahead of the crowd"...

 

Now it doesn't work for everyone....not everyone can do it....it may not fit YOUR style and you may well think that those of us who do it are "crazy" (as you put it), but that doesn't invalidate the process at all....and the fact that the village idiots step and congratulate you at the end of your comment would make me suspicious that I was missing the point...

 

Good luck in the markets

Steve

[joshdance 10]

One of the draws of this site is the unscripted comedy improv that some of you generate on a daily basis.

 

First congratulations....you finally figured out that the reason for my trade isn't about logic....its about the emotional reaction that the crowd exhibits when Mr. Bernanke says something that they A. agree with, B. disagree with, or C. are surprised to hear.

 

Frankly the older I get the less patient I am with naivete, but in this case I am going to go "with it" a while longer assuming that you aren't stupid but perhaps developmentally delayed...

 

"Logic" works up to a point, but at some point, those of us who do this for a living figure out that what always works is to get inside the heads of those who can move markets, anticipate what they are going to do correctly and get in front of that decision making process. During the time that I worked an overnight desk trading the Euro and Bond, this is how I made a living....my boss would characterize this process as "thinking a couple of steps ahead of the crowd"...

 

Now it doesn't work for everyone....not everyone can do it....it may not fit YOUR style and you may well think that those of us who do it are "crazy" (as you put it), but that doesn't invalidate the process at all....and the fact that the village idiots step and congratulate you at the end of your comment would make me suspicious that I was missing the point...

 

Good luck in the markets

Steve

 

I was wrong to doubt you steve; how foolish of this naive, village idiot to question the "professional" who posts the best hindsight charts on the forum. Keep them coming! If you ever grow a pair and decide to post even one live trade chart per, say, 10 hindsight ones, let me know and I'll join you in a thread for that very purpose. Until then, the BS-o-meter is off the charts for you, "professional."

[steve46 12]

Appreciate the continued entertainment princess.

 

I'll give it another shot....you suggest that trading based on what a person says is "crazy"...but I just typed a few carefully chosen words and zoom...you could not keep from posting your reply..

 

Is this too difficult to get?....I trade events based on the crowd's emotional response to WORDS

 

If I can make you respond, why does it seem unreasonable that others do the same when they hear certain words from Mr. Bernanke?

 

Duh!!!!!

 

Ah well, back to work.

 

Best to everyone

Steve

Edited February 10, 2012 by steve46

[johnw 10]

Appreciate the continued entertainment princess.

I'll give it another shot....you suggest that trading based on what a person says is "crazy"...but I just typed a few carefully chosen words and zoom...you could not keep from posting your reply..

Is this too difficult to get?....I trade events based on the crowd's emotional response to WORDS

If I can make you respond, why does it seem unreasonable that others do the same when they hear certain words from Mr. Bernanke?

Duh!!!!!

Ah well, back to work.

Best to everyone

Steve

 

gm Steve,

 

What you are demonstrating is one of life's great advantages and that is to put yourself in the other guy's head.

It is not easily done and is beyond the scope of most people because they simply cannot let go of their own thoughts and so they wind up with a mish-mash of ideas... in fact they drop themselves into an even deeper mess.

[SIUYA 11]

usually there is only one village idiot - they provide the comedy fodder for the others, and the best part of it is that the village idiot is usually the one with blinkers on and thinks that everyone else but them is the fool.

[joshdance 10]

Appreciate the continued entertainment princess.

 

Princess? Your ego must be taking quite a blow to use such personal insults, that are in no way related to the conversation at hand.

 

If I can make you respond, why does it seem unreasonable that others do the same when they hear certain words from Mr. Bernanke?

 

 

I have no doubt that some people bought because of what Bernanke said. But there are many reason why people can buy: price touches a moving average, time elapses without XYZ happening, a support level holds, etc. I still do not think Bernanke said anything that the market had not already taken into consideration, which is the main reason why someone would buy. Sure, people can buy if they like what someone says, but the rest of the market has already heard "old news" and Bernanke did not really say anything new that the market had not already priced in. Just my opinion of course. My point was that one might as well say, "the market hit the 5 minute 20EMA, and traders bought because of that." I think that's kind of ludicrous, but to each his own. I only said this:

 

You are presuming that because the market moved when he said something, that his comment was the cause, or impetus which caused traders to move the market. Perhaps it was, but one does not imply the other.

 

Good luck steve, and the invitation still stands for you to open a thread, or post in an existing one, an actual trade you take, when you take it. I think maybe once I've ever seen you post a chart of a trade that did not work for you, compared with at least a hundred or so charts of trades that you took several hours before that worked to perfection. A post of a chart showing a trade you take, in real time, would be refreshing, or even a chart showing a losing trade and how something didn't work would be helpful. But you have too much to lose to do that I'm afraid, as you have built yourself up too much, so you probably won't. But for someone who has never posted a chart of a losing trade and only posts winners, it's quite suspicious that you won't simply take that screen capture when you take the trade, instead of waiting an hour or two and then showing how obvious it was that it was going to work.

[steve46 12]

Josh

 

You got driven around like a stolen chevy...too bad champ....but thats how the world works and those of us who have figured it out make a living trading off the information, while you whine and challenge impotently......you see you don't mean that much to me.....you can't get in my head....because I already know where I stand with the people who DO mean something to me.

 

Get over it and join the rest of the adults (or not). Its up to you

 

Back to work (Good luck everyone)

 

Steve

[joshdance 10]

Josh

 

You got driven around like a stolen chevy...too bad champ....but thats how the world works and those of us who have figured it out make a living trading off the information, while you whine and challenge impotently......you see you don't mean that much to me.....you can't get in my head....because I already know where I stand with the people who DO mean something to me.

 

Get over it and join the rest of the adults (or not). Its up to you

 

Back to work (Good luck everyone)

 

Steve

 

Let's try a new approach steve -- how about, we give each other another chance; I'll forget and forgive your rude comments to me, and you forget and forgive my rude comments to you? Let's approach this like men, human beings, actually try to get along despite differences in our personalities? Kind of like starting over. How does that sound?

[CYP 10]

Not sure what happened to the thread, but it went from "Jack/Jill (whomever) not knowing how to trade and ideas on how to help him/her" to a Friday UFC match between Steve and Josh...

 

I hope the thread can get back on track?

 

CYP

[steve46 12]

Consider it done Josh

[joshdance 10]

Not sure what happened to the thread, but it went from "Jack/Jill (whomever) not knowing how to trade and ideas on how to help him/her" to a Friday UFC match between Steve and Josh...

 

I hope the thread can get back on track?

 

CYP

 

Sorry CYP, I will take the blame for that as I was the one who initially replied to him. I won't post anymore on this thread and sorry to Rande for derailing it.

 

Consider it done Josh

 

Sounds good steve, thanks.

[steve46 12]

In my opinion the comments all relate to the concept of taking the "blinders" off

 

I am a bottom line kind of person...for me that bottom line is simple

 

Most people swim in a sea of emotions they don't understand...if you get some visibility as to how that works, you have an potential advantage in any activity you engage in....not just trading.

 

Personally the idea of archetypes doesn't appeal to me...I prefer a direct path to my goal....

 

Back to work

[SunTrader 10]

Consider it done but ......

[steve46 12]

I see, so to clarify for those who may not speak English...what I am saying is that ALL the comments relate either directly or indirectly to the subject of the thread...YOU sir or madam may not understand that...

Edited February 10, 2012 by steve46

[zdo 20]

Consider it done but ......

 

us fkn btchz go all adhomino…

... the mind you brought to posting is not the mind that...

 

 

 

btw…when it comes to understanding certain ___cepts (like “archetypes”), words on a page cannot convey the more in-depth nuance and meanings. Sustained work with them can actually be a more direct path than is a “direct "bottom line" path” … just sayin’…

[steve46 12]

Yes I can see that it has really helped you to express yourself clearly...you're much improved.

[SunTrader 10]

… just sayin’…

Ya don't say.........

[MightyMouse 12]

First congratulations....you finally figured out that the reason for my trade isn't about logic....its about the emotional reaction that the crowd exhibits when Mr. Bernanke says something that they A. agree with, B. disagree with, or C. are surprised to hear.

 

Steve

 

Your trade was not about logic, but it does lead you to an A or B or C conclusion. As a cynical onlooker, I would suggest that there are a lot more actions and reactions that might occur from a Bernanke comment than your non-logical A or B or C reactions, but at the same time I am not suggesting that you have cataloged them all in your short response. However, how do you know which reaction it is going to be to take advantage of your ability to be a few steps ahead of the crowd?