Taking the Blinders Off the Trading Mind

[SIUYA 11]

.....just came across this elsewhere which might make for interesting reading, I have not read it myself but apart from the "cooking offal handbook", or the "The art of nipple sucking and MILFs" it might make a good read.

 

Amazon.com: Thinking, Fast and Slow (9780374275631): Daniel Kahneman: Books

[MightyMouse 12]

The distinction becomes clear again when the husband becomes aware of the urge to suck on the other nipple.

 

Sometimes it makes the husband want a newer younger mammal

[zdo 20]

1. Again - let's all be careful of the "if I don't experience it, it doesn't exist and cannot be experienced by anyone" bias. Some traders are more 'mammilian' than others. ie that's how some can benefit from Rande's and other trading coaches' types of protocols, while it's useless "tripe" to others...

 

2. re Rande's experience. I'm not judgemental about it. Some are. I'm sticking with my original thoughts on the matter... Rande would have much higher and easier rapport with 'us' if he did have obvious experience.

...Meanwhile, many, if not most, don't understand what he does grasp about trading

Who knows? Maybe he does have experience and just doesn't disclose it... if he wants, I would be happy to show him low exposure ways of getting experience.

 

3. From the article (and from my post 130)

 

...Your brain, unless you significantly redevelop it...

 

What does "redevelop it" mean?

 

It was a serious question. Way back in this thread I mentioned we are not talking about 'psychology' or 'trader psychology'. Gosu's and others' recent posts plus http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-psychology/11710-wrestling-emotions-capacity-change.html (wonder why negoc8r didn't just join in over here ? :rofl: ) all go directly to the heart of the same - just from different perspectives.

 

What does "redevelop it" mean?

Edited January 19, 2012 by zdo

[zdo 20]

2. ie more on Rande (and other ‘professionals’s’) depth of real trading experience …

Gosu (in post 137) mentions “no separation”. I couldn’t agree with that part more! ( I’ve previously posted about the ‘up the middle’ approach where every advance in method is signal to do ‘inner’ work and viceversa., etc) Yet, where ‘helpers’ are involved, I’ve seen a phenomenon and I’ve experienced it too (both coming and going)

---> ! The further a ‘teacher’ takes a ‘student’ away from the perceptual advantages and methods that are true to the ‘student’s own nature, the more “separation” is created! I mentor one experienced trader at a time and we have plenty to deal with without discussing edge(s). I have completed several relationships now with only an inkling of what the other’s edge(s) are all about! But, it’s a personal battle with me and almost every session there are ‘temptation windows’ where part of me is itching to insert edge advice (why don’t you look at ____ ?! or SEE _____ ?!!!!, etc) or dilute the charge with listening to him chatter about and us 'work' on his edge(s).

 

So, in Rande’s case (and most other ‘professional ____’s), if he were significantly experienced at trading, it could also bring bias for his method(s) to each new relationship. It could subtly infect his gestalt of the client and corrupt his work with him. So far, in my experience of Rande’s approach, I’ve found that he teaches various protocols that the student must apply on his own and then offers progressively more depth and individual permutations the further the student goes with him. The work is primarily about the trader that’s comes in front of the tradestation and what he brings to the challenges of trading. His work is not directly about the mkts ‘stream’, reactions, or behaviors, etc.

So, I’ll reiterate - if he could keep the development part very compartmentalized in his work with a client, then sufficiently extensive experience at trading would be conducive to building rapport with prospects. But in the actual work, his real trading experience is probably better left as a ‘null’.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ps Now that we apparently have a lull in the 'destructions' ...

from previous posts

 

What does "redevelop it" mean?

 

That was a serious question

[jtrader500 10]

Thanks for inviting me to this section.

I dont really know where to start, but if anyone would like to ask any questions about trading psychology and their personal trading pitfalls, I would be glad to try to work through any of them in this section.

After being isolated and have never talked to other traders for 19 years, I just recently started to communicate with others and I love it.

The hardest part and why there are not alot of pro traders giving active advice in forums is because it seem that everyone always reply's with "whats your setup or indicator or strategy"

 

With me knowing the basics of human behavior, I like to attack traders ego's first. That gets them wound up. And ONLY THEN, do I have about a 5% chance of them remembering some critical information 24 hrs later.

 

I think it feels great to help fellow traders, so if you can think of anything that no one has ever answered to your understanding or satisfaction, please feel free

Thanks a lot

[jtrader500 10]

Well,since i did the inviting ,it's probably me that should reply first.So welcome Jtrader

I assume you read the article on page -1,which led me to pose the questions that have still not been answered.Those questions are:

 

1) How is a psychologist equipped to know the requirements of ''the trading mind'' in order to help a struggling trader succeed in the markets?

 

2) How can a psychologist who has never traded himself,help anyone succeed in the markets?

 

19 pages,so far no answers from the guy 'best placed' to tell us.

 

And one more for you:

 

Do you know any traders who have been helped by a psychologist? Have you read anywhere about someone who claims to have been helped to succeed in trading by a psychologist?

 

 

Thanks for getting started with some questions.

This topic is very complicated and is one giant puzzle that interconnects at so many different levels, that it is rare that a trader figures both the numbers game and the human nature game.

I feel that I truly have a gift to be able to take a very complex subject and explain it in simple terms that people can understand.

I do need you to know that I often use the words "always" and "never" just to stress importance. I will try to avoid getting off tangent until I feel it is in sequence with the overall message.

 

A-1 Fundamental rule of trading is to look at the current situation and try to figure out the state of mind of both bulls and bears at various levels. Who is trapped, which side is the most skittish, is this short covering or real selling, Etc. In order to know your opponents thinking, you must study the psychology patterns of yourself and others in order to gain a true CONSISTENT edge. We could write a book on each question but I will just list some tidbits.

A-2 A psychologist can only help you on that part. You still have to have excellent risk control and entry timing. People who tell you that the exit is more important than your entry, run from them. Entry is absolutely critical to your risk management.

 

A-3 Please understand this one. The psychology of trading NEVER stops. The things you must work on everyday (you will never master them) is a tug of war b/n confidence, ego and persistence. Example: if you are too confident in a trade, you may be compelled to move your stop and be stubborn. If you confidence is too low, You may get shaken out with just a small profit.

 

My example: I really believe in my heart that I can out trade 95% of people. My confidence in everything in my life is through the roof. And now that I have analyzed myself, I feel that this is the reason that through my life, it is why everything in business comes super easy. My friends just say that im lucky. I say that the definition of "luck" is when preparation and opportunity meet.

My high confidence the first ten years hurt me bad. The market was the only thing that I couldn't whip. When i trained my mind to be really scared to take a loss, it all changed. Thats when I was forced to be the best at my entries.

I have developed sort of a split personality. Super confident but also feel like im dying when a loser starts to run. You can never ever let a loser switch your mind from an acceptable loss to a mindshift of "I cant take this loss" Then your trapped.

The best thing I feel to train your mind with losers, is to get a trading buddy and talk your trade parameters before you trade. I talk out loud to myself as if I am 2 people.

Thanks

[MightyMouse 12]

Thanks for getting started with some questions.

This topic is very complicated and is one giant puzzle that interconnects at so many different levels, that it is rare that a trader figures both the numbers game and the human nature game.

I feel that I truly have a gift to be able to take a very complex subject and explain it in simple terms that people can understand.

I do need you to know that I often use the words "always" and "never" just to stress importance. I will try to avoid getting off tangent until I feel it is in sequence with the overall message.

 

A-1 Fundamental rule of trading is to look at the current situation and try to figure out the state of mind of both bulls and bears at various levels. Who is trapped, which side is the most skittish, is this short covering or real selling, Etc. In order to know your opponents thinking, you must study the psychology patterns of yourself and others in order to gain a true CONSISTENT edge. We could write a book on each question but I will just list some tidbits.

A-2 A psychologist can only help you on that part. You still have to have excellent risk control and entry timing. People who tell you that the exit is more important than your entry, run from them. Entry is absolutely critical to your risk management.

 

A-3 Please understand this one. The psychology of trading NEVER stops. The things you must work on everyday (you will never master them) is a tug of war b/n confidence, ego and persistence. Example: if you are too confident in a trade, you may be compelled to move your stop and be stubborn. If you confidence is too low, You may get shaken out with just a small profit.

 

My example: I really believe in my heart that I can out trade 95% of people. My confidence in everything in my life is through the roof. And now that I have analyzed myself, I feel that this is the reason that through my life, it is why everything in business comes super easy. My friends just say that im lucky. I say that the definition of "luck" is when preparation and opportunity meet.

My high confidence the first ten years hurt me bad. The market was the only thing that I couldn't whip. When i trained my mind to be really scared to take a loss, it all changed. Thats when I was forced to be the best at my entries.

I have developed sort of a split personality. Super confident but also feel like im dying when a loser starts to run. You can never ever let a loser switch your mind from an acceptable loss to a mindshift of "I cant take this loss" Then your trapped.

The best thing I feel to train your mind with losers, is to get a trading buddy and talk your trade parameters before you trade. I talk out loud to myself as if I am 2 people.

Thanks

 

It seems like you have done a great job of getting your ego under control. I would not be curious to see what it was like before you fixed it.

[jtrader500 10]

Believe it or not, I have almost no ego

I absolutely love to be picked apart by the best of the best. Other people will do a great job at finding things that I have missed.

I could standing strong on something that I thought was right for years, and if someone shows me something different and it makes sense, I will flip on a dime. Because if I dont, that new information will hurt me at some point.

I can approach this forum one of 2 ways. Talk and give my opinion with no conviction and tiptoe around. Or try to get past most traders big ego's and into your feelings (where most decisions are made) to get the point across. I'm not typing just to kill time.

I will be learning just as much as everybody else.

Thanks

[MightyMouse 12]

Believe it or not, I have almost no ego

I absolutely love to be picked apart by the best of the best. Other people will do a great job at finding things that I have missed.

I could standing strong on something that I thought was right for years, and if someone shows me something different and it makes sense, I will flip on a dime. Because if I dont, that new information will hurt me at some point.

I can approach this forum one of 2 ways. Talk and give my opinion with no conviction and tiptoe around. Or try to get past most traders big ego's and into your feelings (where most decisions are made) to get the point across. I'm not typing just to kill time.

I will be learning just as much as everybody else.

Thanks

 

It sounds like you are right until you figure out that you are no longer right. When you figure out that you are no longer right, then you are right for figuring out what was wrong.

 

I would also suggest that an individual who claims that he trades better than 95% of all traders, without having any evidence to state such a claim, has a very large ego. It doesn't matter if it is true or not.

[jtrader500 10]

I didnt say that I could trade better than 95% of traders. I said that I feel as if I can. In actuality, it is probably b/n 75 and 90%.

The message behind that statement for me and how it relates to my trading is that I can go through a string of losses and be able to get focused quikly after a loss.

For me this is important, because a good portion of my strategy requires me to have to do a momentum reversal trade right after being stopped out.

If your confidence level is marginal to start with. You could lose some of the best R/R moves.

 

You could ask a bunch of the best traders, what is it that makes you so good. They will say a few general things and finish it off with "experience". Most people have trouble explaining the word experience.

The way to gain confidence is through experience. And you can gain experience by losing money or learning the fundamentals of experience from others. I have a ton of problems. But like a drug addict, You cant fix something that you dont understand.

And yes, I suspect that you are part of the 10% traders

Thanks

[gosu 10]

* * *

 

I would also suggest that an individual who claims that he trades better than 95% of all traders, without having any evidence to state such a claim, has a very large ego. It doesn't matter if it is true or not.

 

I know the top 5% sounds like an exclusive club and is often spoken about as the population in the trading world that has "made it," but based on casual observations I don't think this is true. I am talking about traders strictly and not money managers whose income is derived from fees and commissions.

 

I've been around hundreds of "traders" over the years and I would guess maybe 1 or 2 out of 100 who give it a SERIOUS go at trading get good enough to last in this business. I'm talking about people who are SERIOUS, which is really a minority group. Counting the punters who have no chance at succeeding, that would put the percentage much less than 2%.

 

Compare trading with another skill-based activity that has a lot of stats on its population: chess.

 

I've attached the USCF ratings distribution table for people who have gone through the motion and paid for membership, club dues, tournament fees, etc., and played in rated tournaments. There are a lot more people who play casually who are not rated.

 

The USCF counterpart to the 95th-percentile person in the trading world is the Class A player rated 1900+ who is in the top 94.62% among rated players. It takes a chessplayer to understand that, notwithstanding the impressive percentile, these players are nothing special and they comprise the fodder in a typical club tournament where they get beat up by masters and experts.

 

Now, I'm not saying that trading and chess are related in any way other than that they both require knowledge, skill and experience to excel. And it may be that being "good enough" in trading is easier than it is in chess. In any case, being in the 95th percentile does not necessarily cause egos to inflate.

[MightyMouse 12]

I know the top 5% sounds like an exclusive club and is often spoken about as the population in the trading world that has "made it," but based on casual observations I don't think this is true. I am talking about traders strictly and not money managers whose income is derived from fees and commissions.

 

I've been around hundreds of "traders" over the years and I would guess maybe 1 or 2 out of 100 who give it a SERIOUS go at trading get good enough to last in this business. I'm talking about people who are SERIOUS, which is really a minority group. Counting the punters who have no chance at succeeding, that would put the percentage much less than 2%.

 

Compare trading with another skill-based activity that has a lot of stats on its population: chess.

 

I've attached the USCF ratings distribution table for people who have gone through the motion and paid for membership, club dues, tournament fees, etc., and played in rated tournaments. There are a lot more people who play casually who are not rated.

 

The USCF counterpart to the 95th-percentile person in the trading world is the Class A player rated 1900+ who is in the top 94.62% among rated players. It takes a chessplayer to understand that, notwithstanding the impressive percentile, these players are nothing special and they comprise the fodder in a typical club tournament where they get beat up by masters and experts.

 

Now, I'm not saying that trading and chess are related in any way other than that they both require knowledge, skill and experience to excel. And it may be that being "good enough" in trading is easier than it is in chess. In any case, being in the 95th percentile does not necessarily cause egos to inflate.

 

You could be right and being in the 95tile in trading, if 95% fail, could mean that you are a breakeven trader and it should not inflate your ego; but, stating that you can out trade 95% of other traders without knowing that you really can is inflating one's ego, self promotion, etc.

[bobcollett 10]

Hi Mighty Mouse

Its a pity you started your questions on this thread.

jtrader has some interesting comments.

But I think his replies will be lost in the rant.

regards

bobc

 

PS jtrader, you never answered MM's question on knowing if a psychologist has helped a trader.

[jtrader500 10]

You could be right and being in the 95tile in trading, if 95% fail, could mean that you are a breakeven trader and it should not inflate your ego; but, stating that you can out trade 95% of other traders without knowing that you really can is inflating one's ego, self promotion, etc.

 

Maybe I should say it in a different way again.

In the area of confidence and ego, these are too totally different things. I am super confident with no ego in trading. I am presenting a false personal ego here because it is the best way to generate a conversation that may stick in someones mind.

Does anyone really remember posts from people from a year ago. No

 

This approach will appeal different to various people. The established trader who has vested time and reputation to will come out of the gate to to point out facts off tangent and more or less say, who does this guy think he is

Hey, I would do the same thing because alot of people like the drama and you have to call them out. I used to go to trading seminars (most are a joke) for fun so I can ask specific questions that points out the biggest flaws. I got kicked out of one. Nothing bothers me more that to see good honest people get taken advantage of.

I would like to get some conversation started about what people are thinking as they are about to place a trade and if those thoughts are in line with the most important factors.

 

For example: In the larger context, are your first trade qualifiers volume then price or just price?

I strongly feel that a person must learn to trade with ONLY price and volume (including DOM and T&S) and be consistent. If you cant make it there, you wont have a chance.

Thats like building a house with one box of nails, you may get by, but will constantly be going back and adding while some other part starts to breakdown.

Thanks

[jtrader500 10]

jtrader, you never answered MM's question on knowing if a psychologist has helped a trader.

 

I like to use analogies to better explain complex answers. And since I have had to deal with the worst psychological traits that any person could have, these references, most of the time will be about me. And no thats not my ego talking

 

A- I try to be my own shrink (psy is too long) First you need to list all of your good and bad traits. And really take all the time you need to think through your life and figure out how you were raised and why you are the way you are. If you dont do this, you wont know how to approach your trading to solve these problems, and subconsciously you will be having a tug of war b/n your feelings and your actions. In the end, you have to separate these two.

Do you ever wonder why every trader knows what the rules are but the whole problem is following them or the famous "discipline" word. When you truly know yourself, you will look at trading to be so simple, it ridiculous.

For example: One very bad trait of mine is that I cant follow any type of repetitive rule. Me and "structure" are enemies. I do what I want, and when I want something, I figure out a way to get it.(all honest tho).

This trait came from me being raised by my mom, sister and grandma. They never gave me any structure or discipline, they never said no to me.

The first 10 years of swing trading, I tried to follow the rules but I always ended up trading emotions and I could literally pick tops and bottoms to the tick when I was on the wrong side. This super consistent wrong track record was so precise, I knew that if I could reverse it, it would work.

With my strong emotions, I can feel the energy in the tape. When I change my style to thinking about what the other guy is thinking at various places, I was able to be dynamic, with no hard and fast rules. I made my trading fit my personality which made it fun and not a job.

I also had to deal with "being impatient" and ADHD. That is another story

thanks

[MightyMouse 12]

Hi Mighty Mouse

Its a pity you started your questions on this thread.

jtrader has some interesting comments.

But I think his replies will be lost in the rant.

regards

bobc

 

PS jtrader, you never answered MM's question on knowing if a psychologist has helped a trader.

 

I didn't ask that question, but I will answer it and feel confident that the answer is yes.

 

I am not sure why there is a debate on whether a psychologist has helped a trader.

 

I am also confident that a psychologist can't help all traders and confident that a psychologist can't help too many non traders become traders. I am also confident that not all traders need help from a psychologist to get on top of their game.

[bobcollett 10]

I didn't ask that question, but I will answer it and feel confident that the answer is yes.

 

I am not sure why there is a debate on whether a psychologist has helped a trader.

 

I am also confident that a psychologist can't help all traders and confident that a psychologist can't help too many non traders become traders. I am also confident that not all traders need help from a psychologist to get on top of their game.

 

Sorry MM

mitsubishi asked the question

bobc

[steve46 12]

As I mentioned a while back, I was helped by Dr. Ari Kiev when I first started out in the business. The gentleman had no first hand experience trading....

 

and again as I have mentioned in previous posts, the way that I gauge whether a person can help me is

 

1. He/she demonstrates an understanding of the problem(s) I need to solve

2. He/she offers comments that cut to the core of the issue(s)

3. Based on my interaction with that person, I see that I am closer to reaching my goals

 

Thats it for me....if a person can help me and I see these three (3) points addressed, then I don't care whether they are psychogists, psychiatrists, or selling insurance as long as they get the job done.....after all this is a results-oriented profession.

Edited January 22, 2012 by steve46

[jtrader500 10]

Anyway, it looks like Rande has given up here.I have to conclude that,for him, preaching to the converted pays better in both time and money.Fair enough,i guess.

Any neutrals may just have to try a psychologist themselves if they feel that is the only way they can conquer their demons.And i will continue to be my own shrink,as jtrader suggests.

Btw,anyone know how the word ''shrink'' came about?

 

It reminds me of the bettlejuice movie where they shrunk their heads.

 

Well said. It sounds like someone here wants to get from point A to point B

I know this sounds egotistical again, but, later on if I feel that people here have a true desire to be the best, I will share my whole trading system down to my most guarded secret that every pro trader uses in their most profitable setups and alot of them dont realize why it occurred because they are looking at it from the a different angle. It is a very simple psy pattern. But when you waiting for it during the day and honed in on in from the psy viewpoint. When it happens, it is so clear from a risk reward standpoint that it is the only time when you can say, "if it doesn't retrace back to here, I can go to lunch and let it ride.

The hard part is that you wont know it unless you are focused from the psy angle at that point in time. The reason is that the "time b/n ticks" is a big part of it.

I, in no way want to make it seem like there is a silver bullet. But I am telling you now, Learning the foundation from this angle will change everything.

 

Let me see if I can answer a couple questions, some may be thinking.

I am not promoting or selling anything but I will tell you that in a year or two, I may write a book. And I can't sell something where someone can prove that it doesnt work. Thats why I want to try to find anything that I cant explain and figure it out. And when I talk the way I do on here, it should stimulate "good traders" egos to call me out. And also traders who have what it takes, (able to take anybody's opinion and evaluate it) to make it, be able to get to the real source of their drawbacks. not just "you need to be disciplined"

 

Where do I get my information: Besides doing everything wrong, I finally reached a point where the hundreds of ways to trade and stuff to look at, started to come together, when I began to evaluate a bunch of top notch traders and tried to figure out why they all had different measuring metrics but made it work. When I realized that it doesnt matter what metric your looking at. I matters that you know that metric like the back of your hand. Then take it further to see what the fundamentals of all those metrics are and then you see the common denominator. From there you can break that down to the basic key components of 1) speed of trade 2) level of imbalance of bids over offers 3) time between trades 4) trade size 5) Is the size shredded 6) the sequence of size per trade in t&s

and some others. (im tired of thinking on the fly)

When you spend time on each one and relate them to indicators, you will be able to get the purest form of info.

After I was comfortable with this, I went back to test it with traders setups and was able to to skip the majority of signals that didnt work out. Then I studied orderflow characteristics of HFT's and porfolio managers etc. When you can have an edge by identifying who is coming in and out and why, this will boost your confidence which will give you more power to follow your rules.

I really hate typing. lol

Thanks

[BearBullTrading 10]

....these players are nothing special and they comprise the fodder in a typical club tournament where they get beat up by masters and experts.....

 

.

 

Maybe they need a "Chess Psychologist" to help overcome the "fear" of taking several small "losses" (pawns) to get the bigger "wins" (Queens etc)..

[Rande Howell 10]

This is copy of a guy who is going through the process of discerning whether a psychological performance coach who has never traded before could help him become a better trader. He has written and spoken to some of the references I have him. Included is one of those replies. I include this one because it is from a trader who has worked with me personally and did the Developing Traders State of Mind Course that zdo took as part of a TL experiment zdo and I did together. So zdo would also know this guy. No only does he talk about the impact this work has had on his performance, but also his brother's performance.

 

To my knowledge, I have never had a client that came out of TL that is an active user of the Psychology Forum here. A number have discovered my work here though. Many have mentioned that they have read the Psychology Forums, but do not find them a useful source of information or a place to enter dialog about psychologcial performance because of the lack of rigor in the conversations. After awhile, they lose interest and seek elsewhere.

 

About my participation.... I only have limited time for this forum. Reading a long winded diatribe and responding to it is simply not something I have time for nor concern for. There are plenty of traders striving to learn how to build a psychology that allows them to use their methodology and platform in more effective fashion. These folks seem to find the time to attend free webinars, see me speak, read articles on my website, read my book, really ask themselves what is holding them back, and schedule a free consult with me. This is something that is offered as a gift. Whether you accept and/or move forward in the conservation is really up to you. No one is coersing. It is an act of discovery. Some don't like the premises of my work, some can't afford it, some simply apply what they learn to their trading. But I've no one who has not appreciated what was extended toward them.

 

Most have experienced enough pain in their trading that they are willing to question and examine their beliefs. Until the trader becomes open to new ways of understanding themselves and their performances, any energy I invest with them is simply nonconstructive. What people end up "getting" as they engage my work is that it is really not about just trading. It is about who shows up to create the life your living. Trading becomes the context of the struggle for this striving toward internal mastery. Trading is simply life on steriods.

 

Matt,

 

Rande Howell used you as a reference for his coaching work so I am inquiring as to your satisfaction with his service. How long have you been working with him? Have you seen measurable results in your trading? Your experience with his various techniques? Or any other comments you might have to help me decide on whether to use him or not. Thanks in advance for any comments you might give,

 

Jeff

 

 

 

Hi Jeff,

 

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I was out of town for the weekend. I started working with Rande last summer, so it's been almost 8 months now. I previously tried several other methods to deal with the psychology of trading without much luck. Some made sense, some didn't. I believe the difference in Rande's work is that he covers in depth what is happening with the mind during trading, some of which believe it or not is biological, and he also provides you with practical tools to use. It's not one of those deals though, where you sign in to a webinar, and suddenly everything is going to be great. It is a process, and a very necessary one. It takes some time and effort on your part to not only understand the work, but buy into it. You can't just go through the motions, you have to believe it the techniques. If you do this, you should see outstanding results. I sure did. After about 2 months with Rande I not only was able to have my best trade day ever, I had my best month ever and it was absolutely due to his coaching because I could look back and say, wow, before doing this, I would have exited here, or I would have bailed on this trade prematurely etc, so there were definitely tangible results for me. As far as various techniques, that would probably be a little to difficult to explain in an email, but if you need any further information you are welcome to call me to discuss. I believe his work is very effective, if I didn't I wouldn't still be using him. FYI, my brother is a trader as well and has been full time for over 10 years and uses Rande too. He would tell you that Rande's work has had a bigger impact on his results than any other training he has had. Hope this helps and good luck to you.

 

Regards,

 

Matt

 

I hope this helps.

 

Rande Howell

[jtrader500 10]

I agree with Rande

I think that one of the disconnects b/n this subject and why traders don't really get consistent with psychology is that traders like to thing in terms of normal guy thinking.

Which is, "what is the problem" and "I need to do this to fix it" now that problem is solved.

Psy doesn't work like that. It's like a big bowl of spaghetti,

you can approach it a couple of ways. You can get someone to help you that knows the proper sequence of navigation thru that maze. Or you can do alot of studying in that area and try it yourself and hope you are training yourself correctly.

 

For me, I am fascinated by how people work. It started when I read the book "how to win freinds and influence people" when I was 20 and into the girl scene. When I found the power of pychology with girls, I never looked back. And then I slowly saw that it works in every part of your life. For example, I am 41 now and been married for about 10 years and have only had 2 decent arguments (not real heated) It's not that we are perfect for each other, it's just that I know how to handle all situations in the right manner and take bad situations and make the other person feel good. But you also have to be able to set any ego aside.

Any investment in this area will pay you back a hundredfold.

If and only if you truly want to change. And to tell you the truth, the 10% that really make it are the ones that really wanted to make it. The others think about the money and that it would be cool to be a trader.

Thanks

[jtrader500 10]

Today is a good example of using the Psy side to trade.

I have been salivating to get short above 1300 in ES

My thinking was that we would hack it up around 1300 and then bust above. Then we need to hold above that to convince most people that it is sustainable and will go to the next level. So last week it hung around 1305 to 1310.

But now it needs to get people to chase it and make people panic buy decisively above 1300

So this morning I was looking at the tape looking for exhaustion of buyers, (not big sellers pushing against)

If I saw big volumes at the double top this morning, I would have a completely different plan of action. When you get true exhaustion moves, You can expect the market to start working the fear side of the longs until you exhaust them.

Thats all the S&P floor traders do. They push and push until it wont go, then start pushing the other way.

Thanks

[horace 10]

Today is a good example of using the Psy side to trade.

I have been salivating to get short above 1300 in ES

My thinking was that we would hack it up around 1300 and then bust above. Then we need to hold above that to convince most people that it is sustainable and will go to the next level. So last week it hung around 1305 to 1310.

But now it needs to get people to chase it and make people panic buy decisively above 1300

So this morning I was looking at the tape looking for exhaustion of buyers, (not big sellers pushing against)

If I saw big volumes at the double top this morning, I would have a completely different plan of action. When you get true exhaustion moves, You can expect the market to start working the fear side of the longs until you exhaust them.

Thats all the S&P floor traders do. They push and push until it wont go, then start pushing the other way.

Thanks

 

All good stuff JT, but can you explain who the panic buyers are. I thought most of the trading was done by institutions and HFT

[jtrader500 10]

All good stuff JT, but can you explain who the panic buyers are. I thought most of the trading was done by institutions and HFT

 

When you think of intitutions and HFT, think of vol size for institutions and consistency of low volatility for program trading. I use the jigsaw reconstructed T&S next an unfiltered T&S. This way I can see the reconstructed market orders and in my side view, see the limit orders that are on the other side of the trade.

When I say panic buying, I mean the speed of the tape.

Then there is panic buying on different scales, 2min,5min or 15min,

One of my basic very general rules is that after I think I identified an exhaustion up move and im short. Depending on the vol that day, I will look at exiting after the 3rd leg down and look for a 30k vol on a 2min chart, and see what happens on the test of that bottom.

I always wait for at least on test, even if I give some back. Because most of the time, there is a lower low test. The tough part is assesing your vol levels on swings in different time frames.

I look at my speed of the tape indicator to gauge rate of trade b/n peaks and valleys. Know the diff b/n a stop run panic and shredded orders sneaking in. Where they fall in the pattern is the difference. Try to align your true emotions with the volume