Handling Early Success

[VTK 10]

In one sense, I should always have a healthy dose of fear (or perhaps, a healthy respect) for the power of the market. However, clearly, I am experiencing some fear based on my trading size when I hold overnight positions.

 

If you are experiencing fear because of trading,tells that you are not comfortable whit what you are doing.So taking acc size to about a minimum allowed by your broker,going with one contract and testing yourself and your strategy for couple of months would be a good idea:2c:

Most likely markets still will be there in a 6 months or a year.

Although you probably did some demo-trading it ain't same as live trading.25k is not a pocket change.At least not for me.

So why to bring yourself potentially in situation where you lose most or all of it?

I'm sure that then you would think;"why i didn't trade just with 5,6,or7k.."

 

Back to fear...Think that respecting tha market would be enough.Would say that there is no "healthy" amount of fear.In a way,fear is unhealthy.

Will quote great trader and mentor on this;

 

....Again, what keeps most people from the process of "growing" and "achieving" is fear. Fear is debilitating, it divides people; think of the

worst decisions you have ever made in your life - they were likely fear-based decisions... Fear makes people run to lawyers when they

are likely not even necessary. Fear not only divides people, but also divides entire countries, causing leaders to spill the blood of sons,

daughters, brothers and sisters. Why? Most of the time, it's just fear. It is fear that most often keeps people from enjoying the great

adventure called life.....

Can you imagine living a life without fear? One of the best antidotes for fear is love. Love conquers fear. When love is at the center of

your life, it tends to flush out fear and give you the strength to climb any mountain, no matter how high. Why don't many people truly

love? Most of the time, it's unfortunately because they are afraid. If you are one of many who are in the middle of the bumpy journey

toward self-empowerment through market speculating or anything else, stay encouraged. You will make it to the peak if you realize

that the valley is NOT a permanent residence. Timid people don't change the world, they hide when the pressure is on. Never forget, to

become a butterfly, you must want to fly so bad that you are willing to give up being a caterpillar. Growth and change always go hand-in-hand with failure and fear.

 

 

 

It is in this area that I get internally confused and tossed around by the myriad of trading axioms..

 

Screw the axioms.Confusion about exiting points can be easily solved by a exiting rule.What i like to do is to mark entry,stop and target levels on mine chart even before i enter limits and stops into system.

Exits are as important as stops and entries.Think that those 3 things(entry,stp,target)are 3 parts of the same whole.

[SIUYA 11]

Jt- you are getting some good advice and clearly have your head screwed on right.....and Tams is Tams - he offers sound advice in only the way he can...but it is valid. Stop trading is his way of saying sit back work out what you are doing and then start, dont mistake luck for skill.

 

Remember a lot of advice is easy to be mis-read, mis-interpreted, selectively read. What you will learn is that there are many ways to do things, many ways to cut and dice the markets and only the ones that suit YOU will work.

Thats why bland subscriptions to others ideas for trading is always dangerous, while taking others ideas and then thinking about them and how they suit you is probably more profitable.

eg; the differences between healthy, unhealthy fear v good anxitey and controlling emotions v eliminating emotions....each of us will see it differently.

Think of a lot of the market psychology as more in terms of your market philosophy....(look up the difference between the two p's)

 

You also have the tough position of asking for advice as you dont have a system as such....it appears very discretionary and so any advice will be just as discretionary....if that makes sense.

As a suggesting check out the the threads here that talk about making a plan for the trading - a comprehensive one, not the simple ones. Also regards your issues of taking profit v letting them run....there are a few discussions about that here....it is something I often toss up. Option timer has a good thread regards this.....

The journey of trading is not just about pushing the buy and sell buttons, it is about the processing between the ears.

[TheNegotiator 13]

JTurner77,

 

My thought is this. Success is relative and it does matter even if you have only made a few thousand $ as this is big for you right now. But the important aspect to focus on to gauge your success is not the $ in your account, but how well you have traded your plan and what the single lot number ticks you made is (i.e. trading 10 lots made 1000 ticks is only 100 ticks really, just on 10 lots). So ask yourself how you think you are doing based on the right metrics then it should take some of the pressure away

[Gooner70 10]

This question is for 'Strongtrader' - I am baffled where you get your excellent return of 5% per day from. - Can you clarify.

 

Its just that at 5% a day you would be far and away the top trader on earth. - Let me explain.

If you start with a balance of $1000, and add 5% everyday, assuming 250 trading days and allowing for compounding the balance would be around $198,000,000 after 1 year, and within 2 years you'll be worth around $39,000,000,000,000.

 

Of course if you are not compounding then it is much less, and perhaps you are averaging 5% of the original balance of the assumed $1000. After one year your balance will be worth $13500, very respectable still. Increasing your capital by 1250% is no mean feat, and technically would still put you amongst the all time great traders, if not almost top of them....

 

I don't mean to be critical in anyway, but I have come across many traders who incorrectly calculate their performance, and the escapism from reality comes back to bite them hard quite often.....

[Strongtrader 10]

This question is for 'Strongtrader' - I am baffled where you get your excellent return of 5% per day from. - Can you clarify.

 

Its just that at 5% a day you would be far and away the top trader on earth. - Let me explain.

If you start with a balance of $1000, and add 5% everyday, assuming 250 trading days and allowing for compounding the balance would be around $198,000,000 after 1 year, and within 2 years you'll be worth around $39,000,000,000,000.

 

Of course if you are not compounding then it is much less, and perhaps you are averaging 5% of the original balance of the assumed $1000. After one year your balance will be worth $13500, very respectable still. Increasing your capital by 1250% is no mean feat, and technically would still put you amongst the all time great traders, if not almost top of them....

 

I don't mean to be critical in anyway, but I have come across many traders who incorrectly calculate their performance, and the escapism from reality comes back to bite them hard quite often.....

 

sure that i compound, of course when i have reached a certain amount of capital i withdraw all the amount and restart again from the begining.

But your count is not correct, starting with $1.000,00 at the end of the year they will be around $250.000,00, i never risk more than the 2% of my current balance.

Furthermore you should know Larry William, this man is able to transform 10K in 1 million in an year, much more than i can do as you see.

To finish, it's funny to notice how people can see only a point within a context and do not see all the rest, my post was only a sum of some suggests to help to do better.

Everybody is focused on +5% per day, nobody had a thought about mine suggestions.

If you focus on them, you'll find that there is very much to think about and to develop.

Don't mind of my gains, you should better ask how you can improve your gains, this is what i did and i'm doing today too.

[zosorock 10]

JTurner:

 

I am too concerned about how you are handling your success. Three contracts are 2 more than I would get into with an account the size of yours for instance. It seems to me you are not 100% aware of how much you are risking by shorting 3 contracts. A 400-point drop in the Dow Jones could take away all the profit you had to date. And these happen way more often lately than they used to. I know, I have been caught in the wrong side more times than I like to admit (usually trying to fake out a rally or something).

 

While I would not suggest you stop trading altogether, I would suggest you that you limit your exposure to say a maximum loss of $250 in any trade. It is better to lose 4 times $250 and then later make $1250 (ending up with a positive result of +$250) than to hold on to a loser that will take you down $8000 and months to make back.

 

The secret is more on how you handle the ones that go against you than the ones that go in your favor. The ones who begin making money a bit and then go south are the worst! You will have to really force yourself out of these positions, no matter what. Like someone else said before in this thread, "not following your own rules is usually the kiss of death." Please don't add to the statistics.

 

My suggestion to handling your emotions is to read Mark Douglas' "Trading in the Zone":

Amazon.com: Trading in the Zone: Master the Market with Confidence, Discipline and a Winning Attitude (9780735201446): Mark Douglas: Books

 

While he does like the sound of his own voice (as a reviewer points out), this book made me accept wins and loses equally and has taught me how to manage emotions to a point where today I can care less if I make or lose money, or if I am right or wrong about where the market is going. And since then my account has only gone up. I think that is priceless because it increased my quality of life as a trader, and that's way more important than just making money.

 

I am positive that if you manage your risk aggressively and persevere you will succeed in your goal. Best of luck!

[yogiberra101 10]

Hi JTurner

 

This is a very good discussion. I would not be put off by any of the comments. you are on a steeep learning curve - every trade is a lesson, partcurly the good ones. But remember you want to be a trader not a gambler, so think and plan ahead, and review and look backwards...

 

I came across some excellent advice on a Linked in group earlier.

 

Its quite a long post so here is the link : What is the difference between trading and gambling? | LinkedIn

 

the comment was by Merrick Sua

 

Good luck

 

Yogi Berra

[JTurner77 10]

Zoso & Yogi: Thank you for taking the time to comment. I noticed that both of you made your first ever post on this forum in this thread. That is pretty cool.

 

 

The feedback you have provided me along with the others has been very helpful to me and it is something that I have been digesting over the last several days. Since I last posted, by account has grown considerably. Frankly, I am hesitant to share specific details about it. However, I want to be successful and I am more interested in learning to be successful at this endeavor than being embarrassed, critiqued or even ridiculed by others.

 

I am having a hard time breaking down my trading to date but I have gone over my trades and will break them down here somewhat. First and foremost, I am not sure how I should classify my trades or what makes a trade a trade. As I alluded to above, I do a lot of scaling in and out of trades.

 

Take the very first trade I made that was a $720 loser. That was two tradeable events. I bought at price x on the 9th and then bought 2 more contracts on a tight stop the next day against support before being stopped out.

 

For the purposes of this discussion and my trade log, even though I recognize that as one trade idea, it was two "tradeable events". Since I started trading, I have had 103 tradeable events with a total of 131 contracts opened. Again, the first trade would be 1 of the 103 events and 3 of the 131 contracts.

 

Here are some stats on the 103 tradeable events:

 

82 were winners (anything greater than $0 after commissions) including 1 open trade in sugar (short 3 contracts)

 

21 were losers

 

 

Of the 82 winning tradeable events, 40 were single lot trades with at least $100 in profit. Another 3 tradeable events were two lot trades with at least $200 in profit and then the open trade in sugar with 3 contracts in excess of $300 profit.

 

Thus, 44 of my profitable trading events exceeded $100 per contract profit.

 

 

Of my 21 losers, 9 trades exceeded losses of $100 per contract. All nine losses are listed below:

 

$260 total on 2 contracts

$201 total on 2 contracts

 

The rest were single lot tradeable event losers:

 

$460

$180

$437

$325

$571

$400

$600

 

I am sure I am not presenting this in the best format or the best detail upon which to analyze, but that is a broad sketch of what I am doing with my trading.

[JTurner77 10]

Same one that you have when you are pissing.Or chewing a bubblegum.You just do your thing and that's it.Nothing more nothing less.That may sound bit blunt,but i believe it's like that.

 

 

VTK:

 

I hear you for the most part, but shouldn't we also allow ourselves to be excited or derive some sort of satisfaction out of winning. Or am I being complete dense here?

 

At the risk of embarassing myself and looking like an idiot to anyone that reads this, I couldn't help myself this afternoon. The last two days I have been killing it with today being especially so. It was by far my biggest winning day. At the closing bell, I slowly stepped away from my screen took a couple steps and proceeded to clap my hands a few times, yelled really loud and said "&*^% Yeah!"

 

It felt good. I have been trying to keep an even level when I trade, but I also feel that one should be able to be proud of themselves or enjoy the moment at times, too. Do you think I am looking at this from an unhealthy perspective?

[MightyMouse 12]

Zoso & Yogi: Thank you for taking the time to comment. I noticed that both of you made your first ever post on this forum in this thread. That is pretty cool.

 

 

The feedback you have provided me along with the others has been very helpful to me and it is something that I have been digesting over the last several days. Since I last posted, by account has grown considerably. Frankly, I am hesitant to share specific details about it. However, I want to be successful and I am more interested in learning to be successful at this endeavor than being embarrassed, critiqued or even ridiculed by others.

 

I am having a hard time breaking down my trading to date but I have gone over my trades and will break them down here somewhat. First and foremost, I am not sure how I should classify my trades or what makes a trade a trade. As I alluded to above, I do a lot of scaling in and out of trades.

 

Take the very first trade I made that was a $720 loser. That was two tradeable events. I bought at price x on the 9th and then bought 2 more contracts on a tight stop the next day against support before being stopped out.

 

For the purposes of this discussion and my trade log, even though I recognize that as one trade idea, it was two "tradeable events". Since I started trading, I have had 103 tradeable events with a total of 131 contracts opened. Again, the first trade would be 1 of the 103 events and 3 of the 131 contracts.

 

Here are some stats on the 103 tradeable events:

 

82 were winners (anything greater than $0 after commissions) including 1 open trade in sugar (short 3 contracts)

 

21 were losers

 

 

Of the 82 winning tradeable events, 40 were single lot trades with at least $100 in profit. Another 3 tradeable events were two lot trades with at least $200 in profit and then the open trade in sugar with 3 contracts in excess of $300 profit.

 

Thus, 44 of my profitable trading events exceeded $100 per contract profit.

 

 

Of my 21 losers, 9 trades exceeded losses of $100 per contract. All nine losses are listed below:

 

$260 total on 2 contracts

$201 total on 2 contracts

 

The rest were single lot tradeable event losers:

 

$460

$180

$437

$325

$571

$400

$600

 

I am sure I am not presenting this in the best format or the best detail upon which to analyze, but that is a broad sketch of what I am doing with my trading.

 

80 out of 100 winners is impressive. Critically speaking, what is the max you are willing to lose per trade or per contract? Had you got stopped out of your trades that you added contracts, what would the loss have been?

 

It seems like you might be scaling in or what I call adding to a losers. I know others do this and I bet it can be done successfully; however, I am simply negative on the practice. I sense that you may be scaling in and then getting out break even or close to it. I could be biased by your "newness", but that is an incredibly destructive practice. It amounts to adding risk when you are losing, thereby maximizing your losers, and removing risk when you are winning, thereby minimizing winners.

 

Your winners seem to all be smaller than your losers. That is consistent with a high win rate strategy. A string of bad luck and you will find yourself in a deep hole that is hard to come out of with small winners. Bad luck means that the current market conditions are no longer what you thought they were and you fail to adapt.

 

Lastly, Its hard enough to master one market. You seem to be all over the place. I simply think that a trader is better off learning the behavior of the participants of one market and trading that market.

 

I hope you figure it out.

[VTK 10]

Your winners seem to all be smaller than your losers. That is consistent with a high win rate strategy. A string of bad luck and you will find yourself in a deep hole that is hard to come out of with small winners.

 

:dito

 

It should be other way around,J.

You should keep your loses small and your winners much bigger than your losses are.When we are talking about win/loss,that's the only way to ensure that you stay in tha game long enough in order to give your self a chance to succeed.

I like to have profit margin at least 3 times bigger than my risk.Most of the time it is 4 or 5 time bigger than the risk or even more.So if i have R/R 1:5 in one trade it takes 5 shitty decisions to wipe out one good decision.

 

VTK: Do you think I am looking at this from an unhealthy perspective?

 

Who can tell you not to be happy!?

I certainly can't and won't:)

But the point is that with time it all becomes same.At least for me.Winning or losing you are just doing your job.Losses are cost of doing business winners are part of doing it.Not much to get exited about.

[SIUYA 11]

JTurner

"Since I last posted, by account has grown considerably. Frankly, I am hesitant to share specific details about it."

when I read this I thought - another promoter of sorts.

 

But in giving you the benefit of the doubt, if your trading is very discretionary then revealing secrets will mean nothing.

Showing a few charts with where and why you bought might provide more insight for others to help with potential pitfalls you might run into. Rather than just providing a bunch of trade stats. If you wanted to provide trade stats on a discretionary system they are largely irrelevant except to show that you may or may not hit trouble in the future. However showing trades with times, dates, prices, entry and exits will help others decipher your potential issues...if thats what you want.

I have seen some horrible trading stats but some how the person pulls it out of the bag every year as they manage to really nail it when needed - as they are discretionary. Some days they have it other days they dont. (this may not apply so much to day traders)

 

All most people here will be able to point out is potential pitfalls you should be aware of and may run into. If it works for you , you are aware of these and can circumnavigate them without letting them screw you up, then it can be successful.

 

Comments such as

"It felt good. I have been trying to keep an even level when I trade, but I also feel that one should be able to be proud of themselves or enjoy the moment at times, too. Do you think I am looking at this from an unhealthy perspective?" are good, but how do you know when it goes too far, what happens when you have a string of losses, what happens when you become complacent, what happens when you dont get that buzz.....

Again only you can answer these and a lot may depend on your style and personal ideas....but as you are here asking then people may be able to offer perspectives (rightly or wrongly) as ideas of what you will face and possible solutions as to how to help. OR at least get you thinking about them. Otherwise like most you will suddenly blow your account faster than say.....sh't I should have been a promoter and kept those winning ways.

 

alternatively you will be become a self made guru and say - see all those other idiots out there with their books and experiences mean nothing......this in probability terms is possible and yet extremely unlikely.

[MightyMouse 12]

:dito

 

It should be other way around,J.

You should keep your loses small and your winners much bigger than your losses are.When we are talking about win/loss,that's the only way to ensure that you stay in tha game long enough in order to give your self a chance to succeed.

I like to have profit margin at least 3 times bigger than my risk.Most of the time it is 4 or 5 time bigger than the risk or even more.So if i have R/R 1:5 in one trade it takes 5 shitty decisions to wipe out one good decision.

 

There are trade offs. If you want a high win rate, then you have to take small winners and bigger losers. There really isn't a way around that other than a string of good luck which could be misinterpreted as skill. On the other hand, if you want a high R/R, then you have to accept a low win/loss rate. Similarly, if you have a high R/R with a high win/loss, you are probably experiencing a decent amount of luck. Luck doesn't last forever.

 

You can trade with a high win rate and low r/r. I don't care for it and it doesn't sound like you do either.

[VTK 10]

I don't care for %win/loss..it can be well under 50% and one still can be profitable on the long run.

One of the odds enhancers that i use is profit margin.And it isn't just about risk/reward.

If all other criteria are met then big profit margin is,actually,something that drastically increases probability that trade will go in mine favor.

Also by quantification of supply and demand of the market,turning points can be anticipated with quite high degree of accuracy.

So it is possible to have decent %win/loss and big profit margins.

[JTurner77 10]

80 out of 100 winners is impressive. Critically speaking, what is the max you are willing to lose per trade or per contract? Had you got stopped out of your trades that you added contracts, what would the loss have been?

 

It seems like you might be scaling in or what I call adding to a losers. I know others do this and I bet it can be done successfully; however, I am simply negative on the practice. I sense that you may be scaling in and then getting out break even or close to it. I could be biased by your "newness", but that is an incredibly destructive practice. It amounts to adding risk when you are losing, thereby maximizing your losers, and removing risk when you are winning, thereby minimizing winners.

 

Your winners seem to all be smaller than your losers. That is consistent with a high win rate strategy. A string of bad luck and you will find yourself in a deep hole that is hard to come out of with small winners. Bad luck means that the current market conditions are no longer what you thought they were and you fail to adapt.

 

Lastly, Its hard enough to master one market. You seem to be all over the place. I simply think that a trader is better off learning the behavior of the participants of one market and trading that market.

 

I hope you figure it out.

 

MightyMouse:

 

I took another look at my numbers updated through today and here is what I have found barring an arithmetic error, but my eyeball check says it looks accurate.

 

My closed contract winners:

 

101 contracts with a $15,315.70 profit equals $151.64 profit per contract

 

My closed contract losers:

 

31 contracts with a $4,338.70 loss equals $139.96 loss per contract

 

My open trades:

 

Sugar - Short 3 contracts with an open profit of $3,326.40

Coffee - Short 2 contracts with an open profit of $1,293.75

 

 

You are fairly accurate in your assumption about me scaling into a position. But it varies. Sometimes I scalp a single contract against resistance and watch price action. If I feel the buying momentum has subsided after a couple of scalps, I will then try to keep my last scalp and hold and see what happens. If I like an idea, I will find an area I am comfortable entering the trade and then scalp another contract or two as the price moves against me. I know the trading axiom is that you never average losers and that averaging losers is for losers. My caveat to that would be, I do not average a loser if the price has gone past a point where I feel the trade is not a valid trade. I guess what I am saying is, I do not ignore a stop to average a loser.

 

One example was a few weeks back when I was trading soybeans in the overnight. The price rallied hard up into the 1125 price area. If I recall correctly, I sold a contract at 1124.50. Beans climbed to 1125 and traded for a while at the number. Then it dropped back down at some point to put me in the red but I didnt get my scalp off. Beans rallied again and I sold at .75. The market traded in the 1125.50-1125 area for about 40 minutes or so. I then went short another 5 or 6 contracts or something like that and placed my stop at 1125.25. In this particular example, Beans eventually hit my stop and I was stopped out at 1125.50. It then screamed up to like 1127.50 before quickly retracing back below my entry point and dropping substantially further without me. That is one example of a loser. But I felt the $25-$50 risk per contract was more than justified by a break to the downside that would have garnered me the potential for $400+ per contract.

 

With respect to your point about trading one market. I definitely see the pros and cons of that position. FWIW, I have traded the following markets:

 

Soybeans

Feeder Cattle

Hogs

Cocoa

Cotton

Sugar

Coffee

Orange Juice

Emini

 

I definitely do not feel prepared or capable of trading some of the other markets. But generally speaking, I see a price pattern and price activity that I like and I trade it.

[JTurner77 10]

VTK:

 

I totally agree with you guys in wanting to keep my losses smaller than my wins. I think over the last few days I have made A LOT of progress in this area. Ive been trying to sit on my hands more and let the positions run.

 

I think much of my small winners has to do with the fact that I am scalping trades when I enter a position that I like and it is a function of really trying to keep myself from digging too deep of a whole when I started trading. Especially after my initial traumatizing loss of $720 and I wanted to scratch and claw back into the green.

[JTurner77 10]

JTurner

"Since I last posted, by account has grown considerably. Frankly, I am hesitant to share specific details about it."

when I read this I thought - another promoter of sorts.

 

But in giving you the benefit of the doubt, if your trading is very discretionary then revealing secrets will mean nothing.

Showing a few charts with where and why you bought might provide more insight for others to help with potential pitfalls you might run into. Rather than just providing a bunch of trade stats. If you wanted to provide trade stats on a discretionary system they are largely irrelevant except to show that you may or may not hit trouble in the future. However showing trades with times, dates, prices, entry and exits will help others decipher your potential issues...if thats what you want.

I have seen some horrible trading stats but some how the person pulls it out of the bag every year as they manage to really nail it when needed - as they are discretionary. Some days they have it other days they dont. (this may not apply so much to day traders)

 

All most people here will be able to point out is potential pitfalls you should be aware of and may run into. If it works for you , you are aware of these and can circumnavigate them without letting them screw you up, then it can be successful.

 

Comments such as

"It felt good. I have been trying to keep an even level when I trade, but I also feel that one should be able to be proud of themselves or enjoy the moment at times, too. Do you think I am looking at this from an unhealthy perspective?" are good, but how do you know when it goes too far, what happens when you have a string of losses, what happens when you become complacent, what happens when you dont get that buzz.....

Again only you can answer these and a lot may depend on your style and personal ideas....but as you are here asking then people may be able to offer perspectives (rightly or wrongly) as ideas of what you will face and possible solutions as to how to help. OR at least get you thinking about them. Otherwise like most you will suddenly blow your account faster than say.....sh't I should have been a promoter and kept those winning ways.

 

alternatively you will be become a self made guru and say - see all those other idiots out there with their books and experiences mean nothing......this in probability terms is possible and yet extremely unlikely.

 

SIUYA:

 

When I said I was hesitant to share specific details it had nothing to do with fear of disclosing trading secrets and everything to do with protecting myself from an onslaught of skeptical criticism. Ill be honest, putting myself out there for you guys is a little intimidating. I am not a promoter of any kind.

 

As you state, my style is discretionary so I do not have any specifics to give away in that regard that would compromise my trading style.

 

I am completely open to the idea of discussing trades that I have done. Hell, I would even post/email my trading statement if some folks are genuinely interested in analyzing my performance to date and providing me with constructive criticism. Even though it is tough to take criticism and as much as I want to even withdraw and be less exposed, I know that I need to be open and sincere in this discussion. And I also know that I need to be prepared to receive positive and negative feedback.

[zosorock 10]

Zoso & Yogi: Thank you for taking the time to comment. I noticed that both of you made your first ever post on this forum in this thread. That is pretty cool.

 

Yes, well, I am always of the opinion that if you have nothing to add to the conversation you should keep your mouth shut And that's why we have two eyes, two ears but only one mouth :missy:

 

I am enjoying reading of your successes and don't feel intimidated by the guys in here. Keep on sharing and we will yell if/when we see some traps you may be walking into.

 

Cheers!

[Gooner70 10]

JT - Do n't get sucked into any traps, you've put yourself out there enough....

 

You don't need to tell anyone anything..--- A little information is good, but your not trading for anyone else,,, and besides their comments don't do define you, your own sense of your self does.

 

I am sure this forum has been good for you though... - But don't let it take over....

[SIUYA 11]

no problems.....when I initially read it I thought salesman....that's my own blinkered glasses. sorry.

You will always get criticism.....especially from your self when it comes to trading, and definitely exposing yourself to criticism to idiots is often not helpful.....but that life.

I used to work on a floor and every trade you did was exposed to others and you had to learn to have a thick skin....when you see grown men break down and cry and then 500 others start laughing at them...its not for the feint hearted.

 

More than anything criticism and advice from some anonymous posters on a website should provide nothing more than a sounding board for your own thoughts. Often people are saying the same things and yet violently disagree, or everything is full of opinion with little real substance.....take it for what it is. There are a lot of people who know a lot of stuff, but are either terrible at explaining themselves, full of crap or are using threads for their own thought organisation and ideas.

 

Looking at what you are trading check out Option timers thread....given you are running a few things you might find it of interest.

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-psychology/10158-optiontimers-project.html

[JTurner77 10]

no problems.....when I initially read it I thought salesman....that's my own blinkered glasses. sorry.

 

 

More than anything criticism and advice from some anonymous posters on a website should provide nothing more than a sounding board for your own thoughts. Often people are saying the same things and yet violently disagree, or everything is full of opinion with little real substance.....take it for what it is. There are a lot of people who know a lot of stuff, but are either terrible at explaining themselves, full of crap or are using threads for their own thought organisation and ideas.

 

 

No worries. In hindsight, I can see how my words could be interpreted as such. Personally, I found it amusing because I am so far removed mentally from even thinking that I could possess anything of trading value for another person.

 

I will take a look at that referred thread.

 

You are right about the sounding board and that is my goal here. My desire is to be honest with myself and with others and work like hell to do whatever it takes to be successful at this endeavor. I don't want to be right, I want to win and make money.

 

If I need to crawl naked over broken glass to achieve some level of success then that is what I am going to do. You know...the mind**** that is trading is so surreal. In my life, I have achieved success at just about everything I have attempted. But when you are wading in the trading waters, you sometimes have no idea what is reality and what isn't.

 

I'd like to believe that of the more than 100 trades I have made that my success is attributable to some measure of "skill" or "talent" and I am perfectly willing to acknowledge the fact that I have probably benefited from some degree of luck or fortuitous circumstances. There is a constant unease because everything that I am doing or experiencing during this process is strangely incapable of being classified as real or imagined, if I make sense.

 

You want to believe that you are doing well on your own accord, but you don't want to delude yourself or become overconfident. You want to be amenable to constructive feedback and criticism, but you don't want to be unduly influenced by some random stranger sitting behind a keyboard somewhere. When you have read so many trading books you learn all the maxims and axioms of trading. So, then you start to wonder if you are simply regurgitating what you have read and learned by rote or if you are actually practicing and implementing these teachings.

 

Being a newbie trader can be very unnerving. Even though I am doing remarkably well and exceeding all my expectations...my success causes me concern and doubt. I am constantly waiting for the rug to be pulled out from underneath me. Since 11/9/11, I have run my account from $25,000 to just over $40,000 with today's open trades. It is not sustainable and it is not realistic to expect this to continue. I am certain of this and today one part of me wanted to close out all my positions and go flat merely because it all seems too much too fast and yet, the other side of my brain said...stick with your trades. You like the trend. You like the position you are in.

 

I am reminded of Jesse Livermore:

 

"It never was my thinking that made the big money for me. It always was my sitting. Got that? My sitting tight! It is no trick at all to be right on the market. You always find lots of early bulls in bull markets and early bears in bear markets. I've known many men who were right at exactly the right time, and began buying or selling stocks when prices were at the very level which should show the greatest profit. And their experience invariably matched mine--that is, they made no real money out of it. Men who can both be right and sit tight are uncommon."

 

Anyway...that is enough of my vomitous rambling.

[JTurner77 10]

JT - Do n't get sucked into any traps, you've put yourself out there enough....

 

You don't need to tell anyone anything..--- A little information is good, but your not trading for anyone else,,, and besides their comments don't do define you, your own sense of your self does.

 

I am sure this forum has been good for you though... - But don't let it take over....

 

Gooner:

 

I guess part of me is looking to assure everyone that I am a credible poster and the other part is really, genuinely interested in a constructive criticism/critique of what I am doing. I feel that a major component of me being successful is being accountable to myself and that one way I can be accountable to myself is by being an open book to others.

 

Kinda of like...if I know I am sharing info with people about my trading it will help ensure that I am more disciplined when I am making my trades because I know that others may see what I have done and call me to task for making some dumb decisions.

 

FWIW, when I started trading I sat down with my gf and told her what I was doing and how much money I was risking, etc. I told her that I didn't want her to ask me daily how things were going, but that she had permission to check in with me on a regular basis and I guided her on what sort of questions that I felt would be constructive and reinforce positive behavior and accountability.

 

I think for me it was important to do that because it reinforced how important it is that I succeed and for me it also reinforced how vitally important it is that I cut my losses and get out of trades. Although, admittedly I have let a few get a little bigger than I would ideally like. Not sure if any of that makes sense to you or anyone else.

[JTurner77 10]

Looking at what you are trading check out Option timers thread....given you are running a few things you might find it of interest.

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-psychology/10158-optiontimers-project.html

 

SIUYA:

 

That is an awesome thread. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. It is very much compatible with my current trading philosophy/strategy of trading with the trend and trying to enter on pullbacks/retracements so as to minimize risk.

[JTurner77 10]

Here is an EOY update on my trading.

 

Since my last post in here, my trading has been much more erratic and far less disciplined. I am embarrassed to admit it and annoyed with myself. My last post in this thread was on Friday, Dec 16th and I was short 2 contracts of coffee.

 

I had been fairly decent with sticking with the downtrend and after reading this thread, others and some books I had made a committment to be more disciplined in riding the trend down and sticking it out. I was looking for a drop to the 200 level on the weekly. But flirted with the idea of covering my short in the 213 area thinking that perhaps coffee was overextended. But, I put those thoughts aside and wanted to be a good little trader and "sit on my hands."

 

At the Friday close, my 25k account had grown to just over $41k and was my highwater mark. On Monday the 19th, coffee traded below 213 and then sharply rallied sharply to close near the high. Honestly, I tried to short and scalp against this freight train. Dumb dumb dumb.

 

Even more idiotic, I kept my short position (which was way too big) into the close. It should probably be noted that this was the first time I carried a trade with negative open equity overnight. Thanks to some positive trades in Cocoa and Sugar, I was "only" down 3k on the day.

 

My open shorts then proceeded to move against me further until finally I puked the position in the 221 area. The quickness of the mounting losses was sobering. I mean, I knew there was fire there...but sheesh.

 

Coffee continued to rally hard into the 224 area. I recognized 224 as an area of resistance. I scaled into another short position at 223.5, 223.65 and 223.85. Coffee would high tick at 224.05. My stop was in the market at 224.10, I shit you not.

 

I really felt good about this trade. Coffee began to lose momentum and started to slide toward the close. So, what did I do? I covered my shorts at an avg cost of 222.5 and rung the register for a grand...and I knew it was a bad move as soon as I hit the send button. Nearly immediately after I covered, coffee would drop dramatically over the remaining 15-20 minutes of the session and close below 221. It would trade below 219 the next day. Thus I missed out on approximately 3k plus in profits.

 

Although I kicked myself, I was feeling rather fortunate to only have been down another $2,200 and my account rested at 35.9k.

 

The next day I learned a little bit about revenge trading and lost another $940 on a stupid trade.

 

I finally said enough and refused to trade the next day. On Dec. 23, I tried again but gave myself very little rope and was stopped out for a $200 loss or so. My account now stood at $34.7k and psychologically affected me in that now my profit for the year was under 10k.

 

Between Christmas and the New Year, I bounced my account around and ended the year at $35.4k.

 

Clearly, I have a lot to learn.

 

It was interesting how my mental mindset mutated after my open profits evaporated and it infected my thought process. I sort of naively thought before this experience that I could compartmentalize each trade and that wasnt the case. I lost a signfiicant amount of money trying to "do the right thing" by sitting on my hands and then I wanted to get it back. Honestly, I thought I was beyond that. I also, wasn't happy with my trading size in that process. I should have been smaller.

 

Even more troubling is that I found myself on some subsequent trades willing to risk more than 2%. Up to this point I felt I had been fairly adept at taking my losses prudently.

 

I am proud of the fact that even though I had taken some significant losses (for me), that I still had the moxie to get short again at a higher level and not be gunshy. Yet, again, I am not happy that I short three contracts even though they were within my risk threshold.

 

If you would have told me when I started in mid-November that I would be up over 10k at the end of the year, I would have said you are crazy. And yet here I am and I am unhappy and a little pissed and dejected by decision making.

 

I am happy that I sat on my hands with the coffee trade, but I feel like I really made a mistake by consciously refusing to recognize the reversal off the bottom. I mean...it reach a significant new low and then sharply rallied above the previous day's high and closed near the high. I knew that this was significant and yet, I not only ignored it...I shorted more and carried an open position with negative equity.

 

Anyway...just some New Year's rambling.

[zosorock 10]

hey Turner, happy new year!

 

I think it is great you are being honest (especially with yourself) and it is very nice of you that you are sharing the experience so others can learn from it. We are all learning from it, myself included. That being said, don't be too hard on yourself. Mistakes will happen, drawdowns will happen, it is all part of the game. Don't let your mistakes make you shy because whatever it is that you are doing is obviously working. Just stick to your rules and keep going, learning, improving, sharpening your skills. Learn what you need to learn and move on, because, as a lame lawyer once said "past performance is not indicative of future results." So live in the now, the only right price is the current price.

 

Good luck! And keep the posts coming.

 

Cheers!