[es] Goldman Sachs and Friends

[NowTheMoment 10]

See if your trades match up with GS&F for Monday, Nov. 14, 2011.

[deerhunting 10]

Dont forget Shi Corp , they do buying and selling in the pit also.

[NowTheMoment 10]

Dont forget Shi Corp , they do buying and selling in the pit also.

 

Yes Deer, and ChiCorp with PruBache and several other smaller retail brokers trade also in the S&P pit. But I had to find a cut off for who are the consistent large volume brokers and the smaller volume houses.

 

Do you listen and trade with pit audio Deer?

[NowTheMoment 10]

Also I don't use tick charts...they are useless for visualizing momentum.....

 

Is that a 10 minute chart you are using Steve?

 

Yes I agree, zones of supply and demand is of major importance.

[deerhunting 10]

I do hear the pit noise , but do not trade off of their trades.

 

Lets say I just went long , and the pit noise gets loud and I hear Goldman came in and bought 125 cars. That just confirms what I thought and price reflects it. Im sure as Goldman gets 125 big concracts on the pit their screen traders will be buying 5 times that, since 5 emini's make 1 big contract.

[MightyMouse 12]

I do hear the pit noise , but do not trade off of their trades.

 

Lets say I just went long , and the pit noise gets loud and I hear Goldman came in and bought 125 cars. That just confirms what I thought and price reflects it. Im sure as Goldman gets 125 big concracts on the pit their screen traders will be buying 5 times that, since 5 emini's make 1 big contract.

 

GS could be liquidating a short or buying contracts as part of an option strategy with a negative or neutral market bias, or buying contracts to fill a customer order, or the purchase can be a smoke screen trade to conceal their larger short that they have other brokers trading in the pit and electronically, etc, etc.

 

It is very unlikely that GS or other large traders are announcing to the world that I am long 125 S&P contracts.

[deerhunting 10]

Yes MM , Goldman and other big institutions do everything you suggested.But you are incorrect on one aspect , the big institutions do not "announce to the world" but Traders Audio does. Ben at Traders Audio has a both rite in front of the pit and announces what happens from the locals long to the institutions being short. I find it a useful tool.

[SunTrader 10]

Salomon Brothers, PruBache? What century are you trading in?

[steve46 12]

GS could be liquidating a short or buying contracts as part of an option strategy with a negative or neutral market bias, or buying contracts to fill a customer order, or the purchase can be a smoke screen trade to conceal their larger short that they have other brokers trading in the pit and electronically, etc, etc.

 

It is very unlikely that GS or other large traders are announcing to the world that I am long 125 S&P contracts.

 

Actually it has nothing to do with announcements..the top 10 (locals) on the floor know who the brokers are likely to be representing when they walk on....after a while you know who is doing the buying (or you can find out quickly).....

 

The information becomes public pretty quickly inside the pit and shortly thereafter most interested locals have a good idea of who is buying and who is selling.

 

For those willing to take the time and learn the language it is possible (at least it used to be possible) to get the info slightly ahead of the rest of the world by listening to the squawk. Now as the pit gets smaller due to more electronic trade, that edge is slowing going away..

 

Finally for those interested, used to be that a person who worked at the exchange would pick up a phone and talk to a buddy on the floor...and get what we used to call "a look" at what was going on in the various pits....in exchange the unwritten rule was that you brought your business to that person. Generally speaking if you were considered "good to the deck" you were entitled to a couple of "looks" and then you were expected to do busines (put an order on)...I am sure its not happening anymore however....

 

Good luck everyone.

Edited November 18, 2011 by steve46

[MightyMouse 12]

Salomon Brothers, PruBache? What century are you trading in?

 

Funny isn't it? But it's true

[NowTheMoment 10]

It is very unlikely that GS or other large traders are announcing to the world that I am long 125 S&P contracts.

 

Got a question for you 'da Mouse'. Look at the chart here that Steve46 uploaded;

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/attachments/32/26658d1321164859-goldman-sachs-friends-screen-capture.png

 

Where do you think Goldman Sachs bought? Did they buy from 1265-1275 on Nov 8th? or around 1235-1225 on Nov 9th?

 

We don't even need to look at volume when looking for the - 800 lb, Big Brother, Owners of the Holy Grail - 'Goldman Sachs'; because they move the market at will. They buy on the way down and sideways, then sell going up. And push the market higher if they have more to sell.

 

Our 1 lot or 10 lot or 50 lot or 100 lot, are absolutely insignificant to the 2 million daily ES contract market. But, GS&Friends tens and hundreds of thousands of contracts are the market. Their participation is volume and is what makes our indicators move.

 

Our entry into the market amounts to a coin flip or guess. That is the truth. We are only guessing on Banker or Player. Goldman owns the casino.

[joshdance 10]

They buy on the way down and sideways, then sell going up. And push the market higher if they have more to sell.

 

Are they buying the bid or paying up to the offer as they buy on the way down?

[MightyMouse 12]

Got a question for you 'da Mouse'. Look at the chart here that Steve46 uploaded;

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/attachments/32/26658d1321164859-goldman-sachs-friends-screen-capture.png

 

Where do you think Goldman Sachs bought? Did they buy from 1265-1275 on Nov 8th? or around 1235-1225 on Nov 9th?

 

We don't even need to look at volume when looking for the - 800 lb, Big Brother, Owners of the Holy Grail - 'Goldman Sachs'; because they move the market at will. They buy on the way down and sideways, then sell going up. And push the market higher if they have more to sell.

 

Our 1 lot or 10 lot or 50 lot or 100 lot, are absolutely insignificant to the 2 million daily ES contract market. But, GS&Friends tens and hundreds of thousands of contracts are the market. Their participation is volume and is what makes our indicators move.

 

Our entry into the market amounts to a coin flip or guess. That is the truth. We are only guessing on Banker or Player. Goldman owns the casino.

 

You can believe anything you want to believe, but Goldman does not move a market, they do not announce their position, nor do they own the holy grail all of which is great fodder for bedtime stories. My guess is that Goldman is not even trading the S&P for their own account.

 

On the other hand, I am confident that Goldman and others do take advantage of the information that they have at hand. Most of which is either deeply in the gray or red area of ethics.

[NowTheMoment 10]

My guess is that Goldman is not even trading the S&P for their own account.

 

Correct Goldman is an investment bank. You deposit 10 million and they trade your account for you. Just like our (BoA) bank uses our money to invest and gives us a checking .5% account. Or a CD and earn 1%. They take our money and they trade with it or lend it out.

 

But GS&F have many customers depositing 10 million plus.

 

Look at this http://nowthemoment.com/images/Goldman_10-q-2q-2011.pdf (800k). Scroll down and read page 32 and 33. Equities contracts = 421,571. Then read, Liquidity Risk Management page 148+, Market Risk Management page 154+. On page 153 Goldman states; 'Our cash and cash equivalents increased by $5.65 billion to $45.43 billion at the end of the second quarter of 2011. We generated $13.10 billion in net cash from operating and investing activities.'.

 

Is Goldman trading MM?

[NowTheMoment 10]

Are they buying the bid or paying up to the offer as they buy on the way down?

 

My guess is GS&F rest limit buy orders on the way down (observe the thousands of contracts in the middle and at the end of a market sell off), then carefully buy the market (hit offer) when they want to halt the market and reverse, (where did the size limit bid orders go, on the way up?).

 

Let's ask a few questions. If we had to enter and offset the ES market tomorrow during SP pit hours - 9:30-4:15 est. - with 40,000 contracts. What plan would we employ? How about 140,000 contacts? Or 410,000 contracts?

 

After our competitors sell into our buying, we consider a plan to move the market in a controlled manner, using our size from multiple accounts, at predetermined levels. And if 410,000 couldn't do it, we'd use 820,000 contracts.

 

We track our position, not by price, but by volume and open interest. (Think about that.)

 

Lunch time hits and we created an upward trend that needs more convincing to go higher, for us to offset. The more stops we hit and levels we break through, gives us a safety net when we sell to the gamblers, who are now buyers.

 

Our size, while we offset hitting the bid, moves the momentum indicator. Luckily, the gamblers only see this as a fib retracement or support level or 1-2-3, or whatever justifies their loss, and they keep buying causing the market to channel, near the high, with an 8 point range.

 

Fact or Fiction? You decide...

[SIUYA 11]

 

Is Goldman trading MM?

 

if you believe GS they are a market maker. Goggle Blankfein market maker.....you will get this sort of response

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein defended the firm during an interview on "The Charlie Rose Show" Friday.

 

Asked by Rose whether Goldman investment advisers had ever bought securities from the firm, sold them to clients, and then bet against those same securities, Blankfein paused. And after a solid six seconds of silence, sought to explain that Goldman's role as a "market maker."

 

"We're like a machine, that lets people buy and sell what the want to buy and sell" Blankfein said. "That's not the advisory business. That's just a facility for market making."

 

Blankfein argued that there's no problem in selling clients a security that Goldman will then bet against, because that's the nature of the market.

 

"By the way, we would'nt even know," Blankfein said of the conflicting market positions.

[MightyMouse 12]

Correct Goldman is an investment bank. You deposit 10 million and they trade your account for you. Just like our (BoA) bank uses our money to invest and gives us a checking .5% account. Or a CD and earn 1%. They take our money and they trade with it or lend it out.

 

But GS&F have many customers depositing 10 million plus.

 

Look at this http://nowthemoment.com/images/Goldman_10-q-2q-2011.pdf (800k). Scroll down and read page 32 and 33. Equities contracts = 421,571. Then read, Liquidity Risk Management page 148+, Market Risk Management page 154+. On page 153 Goldman states; 'Our cash and cash equivalents increased by $5.65 billion to $45.43 billion at the end of the second quarter of 2011. We generated $13.10 billion in net cash from operating and investing activities.'.

 

Is Goldman trading MM?

 

Of course they are trading. Goldman is a trading storm in treasuries, cds and other swaps, and other instruments that they make a market. Their trading profits are different from yours and mine. They trade the instruments that you and I might trade to offset the positions they may have to hold as a normal course of their business. It would be rare or a very unlikely event that Goldman would take a position in ES because they think it is priced too low. Instead, they might, for example, short ES when a customer needs to liquidate a large position in IP, CAT, IBM, etc and know it will have an impact on the index. That is what they are all about. So, yes they trade, but they do not trade they way you or I might trade.

[NowTheMoment 10]

if you believe GS they are a market maker. Goggle Blankfein market maker.....you will get this sort of response

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein defended the firm during an interview on "The Charlie Rose Show" Friday.

 

 

Ok, here is the video: Charlie Rose - Lloyd Blankfein, Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of Goldman Sachs

 

...so you agree that Goldman is the market...?

[SunTrader 10]

...so you agree that Goldman is the market...?

 

I don't

 

Everyone has their own interest, sometimes they align with others and sometimes not.

 

There are times when other market makers trade contrary to Goldman. What then?

[NowTheMoment 10]

 

There are times when other market makers trade contrary to Goldman. What then?

 

The last 3 minutes of the video explains everything...

 

Charlie Rose - Lloyd Blankfein, Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of Goldman Sachs

 

So what does Goldman do when they buy oil at $80 a barrel when the price is currently $40?

 

They do, what you do with $. Buy way-out-of-the-money call options and continue buying oil futures to raise the price to at least $80-$85-$90. The oil company and Goldman are happy.

[SunTrader 10]

The last 3 minutes of the video explains everything...

 

 

So what does Goldman do when they buy oil at $80 a barrel when the price is currently $40?

 

........

I watch markets, not videos.

 

What? When the price is $40 that is the price anyone pays if they decide to buy.

[SIUYA 11]

...so you agree that Goldman is the market...?

 

No. They are just another participant.

Do you think they know about every trade in the market, every participant, every rationale for why others might be trading?

They "might" be able to amalgamate enough order flow in certain instruments to have a good enough insight to be able to front run orders, but I am slightly confused as to what your point is regards the above comment.

Your example about oil implies a slight conspiracy mentality which I think might be clouding your judgement.... or at least a misunderstanding of the last three minutes of the video

I think you will find there are very few actual traders at firms like goldmans (they do exist) but most of them are trade clippers, market makers, brokers and other types of middle men.

[NowTheMoment 10]

Your example about oil implies a slight conspiracy mentality which I think might be clouding your judgement.... or at least a misunderstanding of the last three minutes of the video

 

Did you watch the whole 51 minute interview? The last three minutes Lord Lloyd gave an example of the social significance of Goldmans' business.

 

Paraphrased here:

If an oil prospector wanted to drill for oil on land or in the ocean, and they calculated that the price of oil needed to be at $80 a barrel when they sold it - just to break even - the oil business would contact Goldman and lock in a price of $80 a barrel. The oil business would sell to Goldman oil futures for $80 a barrel when the price is currently at $40.

 

Now the question I raised from the video you suggested was, what does Goldman do with the oil they bought at $80? Lord Lloyd gave examples of the benefits to the oil prospector and the economy.

 

What does Goldman do with the oil they bought at $80?

[MightyMouse 12]

Did you watch the whole 51 minute interview? The last three minutes Lord Lloyd gave an example of the social significance of Goldmans' business.

 

Paraphrased here:

If an oil prospector wanted to drill for oil on land or in the ocean, and they calculated that the price of oil needed to be at $80 a barrel when they sold it - just to break even - the oil business would contact Goldman and lock in a price of $80 a barrel. The oil business would sell to Goldman oil futures for $80 a barrel when the price is currently at $40.

 

Now the question I raised from the video you suggested was, what does Goldman do with the oil they bought at $80? Lord Lloyd gave examples of the benefits to the oil prospector and the economy.

 

What does Goldman do with the oil they bought at $80?

 

I didn't watch the video, but I assure you that you are misunderstanding the example.

[NowTheMoment 10]

I didn't watch the video, but I assure you that you are misunderstanding the example.

 

My job is done here. I tried to converse with the children and they have no respect.