Advice for Day Trading ES Futures

[phoenix01 10]

Hey guys,

 

I was just looking for any genuine advice out there for day trading the eminis After 3 years i still have not reached a level where i can make any money. Ive done the usually, learnt all the lessons about money management, emotions, implies etc etc. Currently i try to trade the 5 minute chart using just price action, with one moving average on the chart just as a reference point (quiet like al brooks). And all i seem to do is break-even, some days i believe I've mastered it and then some days i just want to give up.

 

I just don't believe i have an actual edge. I have so much knowledge about technical analysis and price action but not been able to create the edge thats needed to change from break-even even into profit. I try to risk no more than 2 points (which i find extremely difficult) and create some type of risk to reward ratio greater than 1 to 1. Try to stick to the intraday trend and buy pullbacks and reversals in the first hour.

 

I just feel like I've hit a wall and not sure where to go next. I'd appreciate some genuine advice for where to look or what to look for. If anyone is actually willing to provider information on how they make there living. What i should focusing on and trying to improve to gain that edge?

 

Thanks

[Tams 20]

Hey guys,

 

I was just looking for any genuine advice out there for day trading the eminis After 3 years i still have not reached a level where i can make any money. Ive done the usually, learnt all the lessons about money management, emotions, implies etc etc. Currently i try to trade the 5 minute chart using just price action, with one moving average on the chart just as a reference point (quiet like al brooks). And all i seem to do is break-even, some days i believe I've mastered it and then some days i just want to give up.

 

I just don't believe i have an actual edge. I have so much knowledge about technical analysis and price action but not been able to create the edge thats needed to change from break-even even into profit. I try to risk no more than 2 points (which i find extremely difficult) and create some type of risk to reward ratio greater than 1 to 1. Try to stick to the intraday trend and buy pullbacks and reversals in the first hour.

 

I just feel like I've hit a wall and not sure where to go next. I'd appreciate some genuine advice for where to look or what to look for. If anyone is actually willing to provider information on how they make there living. What i should focusing on and trying to improve to gain that edge?

 

Thanks

 

I would start here:

The Price / Volume Relationship

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/6320-price-volume-relationship.html

[Ants88 10]

Hey guys,

 

 

I just feel like I've hit a wall and not sure where to go next. I'd appreciate some genuine advice for where to look or what to look for. If anyone is actually willing to provider information on how they make there living. What i should focusing on and trying to improve to gain that edge?

 

Thanks

 

Good honest post, friend. We don't or can't have an edge and never will. So forget about the edge talk (and don't believe the SoS). We either follow Goldman or we suffer, that's our choice.

Edited November 9, 2011 by TheNegotiator

[Tradewinds 12]

Are you trying to 'Play it Safe' in how you trade? The market is not about being safe. The market can NOT reward anyone for safe bets. If the market starts rewarding people for safe, easy bets, then the market will cease to exist in a very short while. If everyone made money trading, then the market would cease to exits very quickly. It would be all over with in a matter of a few weeks. If everyone could easily make money in the market, then everyone would do it, and then all the money would be sucked out. It's like a gambling casino. How long do you think a gambling casino would stay in business if everyone made money? A day? A couple days? A week? It wouldn't be very long.

No risk, no reward. The market is about risk. Investing is about risk. But we all come programmed to avoid risk an any cost.

[TheNegotiator 13]

Hi phoenix,

 

One piece of advice to you. Use your accumulated knowledge and time reading price action in CONTEXT. Know what the backdrop to price action is for the market and trade when both fit together. If you haven't started doing this yet, it is your next step.

 

You probably have seen it already as it's another active thread like the one Tams suggested, but I would say look at what is being said day-to-day in the e-mini thread.

 

e-mini day trading thread

 

Don't bother reading it all, just start from today. If you don't get it straight away, don't worry I am sure you will soon enough.

[NowTheMoment 10]

Hey guys,

 

I just feel like I've hit a wall and not sure where to go next. I'd appreciate some genuine advice for where to look or what to look for. If anyone is actually willing to provider information on how they make there living. What i should focusing on and trying to improve to gain that edge?

 

Thanks

 

Phoenix; have you tried following the big players in the market?

 

This chart may help from today's pit SP session...the up arrows are where Goldman and others bought, the down arrows are where they sold in the SPz1 contract. The chart is ESz1.

[gosu 10]

Are you trying to 'Play it Safe' in how you trade? The market is not about being safe. The market can NOT reward anyone for safe bets. If the market starts rewarding people for safe, easy bets, then the market will cease to exist in a very short while. If everyone made money trading, then the market would cease to exits very quickly. It would be all over with in a matter of a few weeks. If everyone could easily make money in the market, then everyone would do it, and then all the money would be sucked out. It's like a gambling casino. How long do you think a gambling casino would stay in business if everyone made money? A day? A couple days? A week? It wouldn't be very long.

No risk, no reward. The market is about risk. Investing is about risk. But we all come programmed to avoid risk an any cost.

 

Amigo, I hope for your sake you were in a drunken stupor when you wrote that rambling pile of stink that you won't remember when you sober up. If you actually believe what you wrote, you will be chasing your tail for a long while.

[MightyMouse 12]

You've gone 3 years without making money?

 

You need a back up plan.

[wrbtrader 10]

Hi,

 

First of all, I doubt you've learned all the lessons because the markets are always changing. Thus, with each change, there's always and will always be something new to learn that will require you to adapt to stay profitable or become profitable.

 

Secondly, you should stop trading via whatever method you're using if you believe you don't have an edge or you lack confidence in the method.

 

Also, you've mentioned Al Brooks method as being similar to your method...that implies you're a discretionary trader (not using an automated system). Thus, its very common for discretionary traders failures is due to themselves and not the method especially after three years going at it.

 

What should you be focusing on and trying to improve to gain that edge?

 

Start a trade journal here at Traderslaboratory that contains charts, good trades, problematic trades, your thought process for the trades along with monitor screen images of exactly how your charts/broker platform are setup on your monitors. Also, discuss your trading environment at home or at wherever you're trading.

 

Explain everything and show visual representation of as much as possible. This will allow you and others to determine if the problem is YOU (most likely the case) or your method along with giving you some good solutions as each trading day goes by.

 

Hey guys,

 

I was just looking for any genuine advice out there for day trading the eminis After 3 years i still have not reached a level where i can make any money. Ive done the usually, learnt all the lessons about money management, emotions, implies etc etc. Currently i try to trade the 5 minute chart using just price action, with one moving average on the chart just as a reference point (quiet like al brooks). And all i seem to do is break-even, some days i believe I've mastered it and then some days i just want to give up.

 

I just don't believe i have an actual edge. I have so much knowledge about technical analysis and price action but not been able to create the edge thats needed to change from break-even even into profit. I try to risk no more than 2 points (which i find extremely difficult) and create some type of risk to reward ratio greater than 1 to 1. Try to stick to the intraday trend and buy pullbacks and reversals in the first hour.

 

I just feel like I've hit a wall and not sure where to go next. I'd appreciate some genuine advice for where to look or what to look for. If anyone is actually willing to provider information on how they make there living. What i should focusing on and trying to improve to gain that edge?

 

Thanks

[Tams 20]

trading is like walking across the street.

 

it can be deadly,

 

but it doesn't have to be

 

if you think it is risky crossing the street, you should not cross it.

[phoenix01 10]

Phoenix; have you tried following the big players in the market?

 

This chart may help from today's pit SP session...the up arrows are where Goldman and others bought, the down arrows are where they sold in the SPz1 contract. The chart is ESz1.

 

How do you find this information? Is this even possible for futures?

[gterps 10]

hi, in the book "the outliers" the author writes about needing to spend 10,000 hours to be really good at anything. it does take some time to be able to pull some money out of the market on a regular basis.

 

fortunately, you only need a couple of trades per day or even in a week to make enough money trading. its like walking up to one the great lakes with a 5 gallon bucket. what you need for daily sustenance is just a very small amount of the lake. the amount you need to draw from the world financial markets doesn't even register on it. it is a micro amount even of just the individual index such as the s&p.

 

maybe on a 1 or 3 or 5 minute es chart look for: (step #1) a higher high - (step #2)followed by a higher low (step #3) followed by another higher high - then look to get long as (step #4) completes a higher low. enter when its done making step 4, step 4 is a higher low than the low made by step 2. the bulls are in control and are building.

 

focus on the bar which made the low in step 2, the bottom of that bar made the low in step 2 but now look to enter a tick or two above the top of that bar.

 

there is no guarantee that the market while making step 4 doesn't drop right on past step 2. look to enter as bottom of step 4 is seemingly being made, place a stop order 1 tick above the top of the bar you believe is the low of step 4. try using just one indicator such rsi or _______ and look for regular divergence.

 

as the market is dropping down after step 3 and is working down to the low of step 2, check the rsi. as the price action runs out of gas going down and completing step 4 (with almost a touch of the bottom of step 2) the rsi is not dropping down near as far as what the s&p is creating divergence.

 

what is good about this trade structure is:

 

a) it utilizes elliot wave.

 

b) if its moving in a controlled way such as described step 1, then 2, then 3 then 4 - it shows the market is acting in controlled logical manner vesus chaos. the market makes sense and should act in a predicatable way for a least the next few bars - enough to get make a profit as it makes step 5.

 

c) you aren't fighting the market you are taking advantage of a short term orderly flow.

 

d) not countertrading, although the steps often come right after the market has made a new daily high or low.

 

e) with a five minute chart you should get a couple of trades per day that should make at least a point or two.

 

f) no indicator overload, putting a bunch of them seems to make sense as you build a methodology. in reality lots of indicators can often create a trading fog during the day in real time. nothing seems to make sense during the day because you are getting conflicting signals but when the day is over it and in review it all looks so simple.

 

of course this works for taking shorts in the market too.

 

we'll never outsmart the market and it can be harsh and seemingly cruel at times. fortunately its not perfectly efficient which gives us small guys a shot at getting in and out with a few points, the inefficiencis are what we try to capitalize on. the market is traded by flawed emotional humans or their flawed methods and programs so it gets pushed too far up or too far down, stops are run, bulls and bears get squeezed, these events give us our opportunities.

 

 

hope this helps!

[bobcollett 10]

hi, in the book "the outliers" the author writes about needing to spend 10,000 hours to be really good at anything. it does take some time to be able to pull some money out of the market on a regular basis.

 

fortunately, you only need a couple of trades per day or even in a week to make enough money trading. its like walking up to one the great lakes with a 5 gallon bucket. what you need for daily sustenance is just a very small amount of the lake. the amount you need to draw from the world financial markets doesn't even register on it. it is a micro amount even of just the individual index such as the s&p.

 

maybe on a 1 or 3 or 5 minute es chart look for: (step #1) a higher high - (step #2)followed by a higher low (step #3) followed by another higher high - then look to get long as (step #4) completes a higher low. enter when its done making step 4, step 4 is a higher low than the low made by step 2. the bulls are in control and are building.

 

focus on the bar which made the low in step 2, the bottom of that bar made the low in step 2 but now look to enter a tick or two above the top of that bar.

 

there is no guarantee that the market while making step 4 doesn't drop right on past step 2. look to enter as bottom of step 4 is seemingly being made, place a stop order 1 tick above the top of the bar you believe is the low of step 4. try using just one indicator such rsi or _______ and look for regular divergence.

 

as the market is dropping down after step 3 and is working down to the low of step 2, check the rsi. as the price action runs out of gas going down and completing step 4 (with almost a touch of the bottom of step 2) the rsi is not dropping down near as far as what the s&p is creating divergence.

 

what is good about this trade structure is:

 

a) it utilizes elliot wave.

 

b) if its moving in a controlled way such as described step 1, then 2, then 3 then 4 - it shows the market is acting in controlled logical manner vesus chaos. the market makes sense and should act in a predicatable way for a least the next few bars - enough to get make a profit as it makes step 5.

 

c) you aren't fighting the market you are taking advantage of a short term orderly flow.

 

d) not countertrading, although the steps often come right after the market has made a new daily high or low.

 

e) with a five minute chart you should get a couple of trades per day that should make at least a point or two.

 

f) no indicator overload, putting a bunch of them seems to make sense as you build a methodology. in reality lots of indicators can often create a trading fog during the day in real time. nothing seems to make sense during the day because you are getting conflicting signals but when the day is over it and in review it all looks so simple.

 

of course this works for taking shorts in the market too.

 

we'll never outsmart the market and it can be harsh and seemingly cruel at times. fortunately its not perfectly efficient which gives us small guys a shot at getting in and out with a few points, the inefficiencis are what we try to capitalize on. the market is traded by flawed emotional humans or their flawed methods and programs so it gets pushed too far up or too far down, stops are run, bulls and bears get squeezed, these events give us our opportunities.

 

 

hope this helps!

 

Hi phoenix01

If you know Al Brooks , then you wont take step 4 above .

You will wait for an H1 which is a lower high....... a pullback

Then enter on the close of the next higher high.

But you can enter anywhere, with enough money to take the pain.

Concentrate on the EXIT. Thats where you take your profit

I would actually suggest you stop trading the S&P

As MM says, you need another plan.

So find another market

Alternatively find a person to hold your hand- not so easy.

Befriend Blowfish. I think hes pretty good.

Failing all this, go to Al Brooks website, pay $99 a month and watch him trade

regards

bobc

 

P.S. Reading more books wont help. You need screen time.

[TraderGCW 10]

Try Greg Stefaniak. I have found him to be the best yet.

regards

[phoenix01 10]

Hi phoenix01

If you know Al Brooks , then you wont take step 4 above .

You will wait for an H1 which is a lower high....... a pullback

Then enter on the close of the next higher high.

But you can enter anywhere, with enough money to take the pain.

Concentrate on the EXIT. Thats where you take your profit

I would actually suggest you stop trading the S&P

As MM says, you need another plan.

So find another market

Alternatively find a person to hold your hand- not so easy.

Befriend Blowfish. I think hes pretty good.

Failing all this, go to Al Brooks website, pay $99 a month and watch him trade

regards

bobc

 

P.S. Reading more books wont help. You need screen time.

 

Thank you for your advice.I think this type of buying pullbacks is what iam going to focus on. A few questions:

 

1. Is it worth buying the book you mentioned 'outliers'

2. Why should i change markets from the es?

[bobcollett 10]

Thank you for your advice.I think this type of buying pullbacks is what iam going to focus on. A few questions:

 

1. Is it worth buying the book you mentioned 'outliers'

2. Why should i change markets from the es?

 

Hi phoenix01

Gterps actually mentioned "Outliers", so I cant take the credit.

It is an outstanding bit of research.

It also shows that the closer you were born to the 1st January, the better your chance of success. I wonder when steve46 was born?

Why should you change?

The ES is going sideways. Thats a hard way to make money.

Find a bull market like commodities or the Australian $.

regards

bobc

[TheNegotiator 13]

Why should you change?

The ES is going sideways. Thats a hard way to make money.

Find a bull market like commodities or the Australian $.

 

If you are a day trader and don't trade ES, I would argue that right now there is every reason to switch TO trading it. ES is a really good instrument for daytrading right now.

[bobcollett 10]

If you are a day trader and don't trade ES, I would argue that right now there is every reason to switch TO trading it. ES is a really good instrument for daytrading right now.

 

Hi neg

I am sure you are right AND

If you were banging your head against the wall and you wanted to stop the headache, what would you do.?

STOP BANGING YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL.

If you are losing money trading the ES, stop doing what you are doing!

Kind regards

bobc

[TheNegotiator 13]

Hi neg

I am sure you are right AND

If you were banging your head against the wall and you wanted to stop the headache, what would you do.?

STOP BANGING YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL.

If you are losing money trading the ES, stop doing what you are doing!

Kind regards

bobc

 

Yes. I would say that there is another more immediate step to take- identify why you are losing money. You may be able to fix this, you may not. But if you don't ask why you are losing money, changing markets may not help you at all and in fact make things worse. There's a lot to be said for knowing your market.

[phoenix01 10]

I just want to ask a general question and id appreciate some genuine answers. Is anyone here making money day trading the ES futures? Because iam quiet young (19) and everyones always telling me day trading is pure gambling and no one makes any money. Furthermore i don't know anyone that trades the markets and it would be nice to hear that it is possible.

 

Sometimes you just need to know there is a light at the end of the tunnel to give you the motivation to continue.

 

Thanks

[bobcollett 10]

I just want to ask a general question and id appreciate some genuine answers. Is anyone here making money day trading the ES futures? Because iam quiet young (19) and everyones always telling me day trading is pure gambling and no one makes any money. Furthermore i don't know anyone that trades the markets and it would be nice to hear that it is possible.

 

Sometimes you just need to know there is a light at the end of the tunnel to give you the motivation to continue.

 

Thanks

 

001

Thousands of people make money trading the ES.

But something is not adding up here.

How much money did you get for your 16th birthday to start trading?

bobc

[TheNegotiator 13]

I just want to ask a general question and id appreciate some genuine answers. Is anyone here making money day trading the ES futures? Because iam quiet young (19) and everyones always telling me day trading is pure gambling and no one makes any money. Furthermore i don't know anyone that trades the markets and it would be nice to hear that it is possible.

 

Sometimes you just need to know there is a light at the end of the tunnel to give you the motivation to continue.

 

Thanks

 

Absolutely. But you need to be really good at it too. You know there are some pretty damn good professional gamblers out there too. Except they view it just a good trader should. Playing the probabilities based on information, experience, statistics and account management. People who say it's just gambling don't understand trading at all. That being said, many traders don't understand either. Trading is like being a professional athlete in a way. However, if you become a professional athlete, you'll have come up through the ranks and trained for years before you go up against other pros. That is not a luxury you have as a trader.

[joshdance 10]

The ES is going sideways. Thats a hard way to make money.

 

You obviously don't trade ES. Did you look at October? Friday and Monday being exceptions, most days for the past 2 weeks even, which has been consolidation relative to October, have provided very directional moves and not a lot of choppiness.

 

I am sure you are right AND

If you were banging your head against the wall and you wanted to stop the headache, what would you do.?

STOP BANGING YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL.

If you are losing money trading the ES, stop doing what you are doing!

 

You advised to switch to another instrument. If you are losing money trading, then stop trading and approach it with fresh eyes and a new plan, but switching from ES to another instrument will not solve the problem. You basically advised him to go bang his head on another wall. See if that will hurt less.

[joshdance 10]

To the OP: sorry to say, there is really nothing of value in this thread except for Negotiator's and wrbtrader's posts--I just read it and can't believe the ridiculousness. You don't need to go to a trading room, you don't need to waste 1 second of your life reading the "price/volume relationship" mumbo jumbo thread. You don't need to wait for RSI and MA crossovers and enter on a bar close. You don't need to read "Outliers" or any trading book (though there are some good ones out there). You sure as heck don't need to know when Goldman is buying or selling.

 

What you DO need to do is open a chart or two, and just sit and watch the market move. Don't think about entering or being involved. Just look--how does it move?

 

And, at any given point, would you rather be long, short, or flat? It's amazing how many times I have seen a chart and thought that I may be wrong on my trade but stupidly proceeded with it anyway. And how many times I had a great idea because of what I see happening, and don't take the trade. Sometimes we know what to do, and just do the opposite.

 

Other times, we have no freaking clue what we are doing. If you have been trading a long time with not a good result, you may be stuck in indicator hell, or you have just seen so many different ways to approach trading that you have not stuck with one long enough to make it work. Or maybe you are using methods which do not require you to think, and you expect some "system" to give you buy and sell arrows that you could ask a 10 year old to trade and be successful. I don't know, but I echo wrb's advice to post some charts, post some of your trades, and let traders who actually traded that day explain why they did or did not take a particular trade, for example. Get some feedback, but ultimately YOU must decide how you want to trade. The knowledge of the markets may lie without, but the success must come from within you, because you must trade in a way that is congruent with YOU.

[gterps 10]

well its appears you have been given the complete solution for your trading troubles - just put two charts up and watch how the market moves. wow, amazing how simple it all is!

 

which two charts? what time frames?

 

i agree it helps to watch a couple of related charts at the same time. i still compare the es and ym and look for one to diverge from the other. there are several futures and indexes you can compare to get an entry opportunity.

 

yes it is good to watch how the market moves but what is going to determine your entry?

 

the market is like a body of water, ocean, river, or lake. you can stand next to it and it might look one way on the surface but there are undertows, eddys, riptides, a whole lot of stuff that can suck you under. its alot easier to swim with the flow and if you get a chance get in when the flows slows down a little and gives you a chance to pull alittle money out of the market. as a little guy, we wil never tame the ocean, river or lake but we can swim when its safe enough.

 

the big boys might be buying stock but selling options or futures to hedge them and might be buying one market and selling another market to hedge. lots of stuff going on in the global financial market which doesn't seem to make sense at the time. often 2 markets go up and down together but a few months later they trade opposite of each other.

 

find one way you know you can bet your life on that will hold up day in and day out and focus on it. don't get caught up in being some supertrader who can trade any futures market in any time frame. you don't need to be an expert market guru who can tell if the market is going up or down tomorrow. you just need to know how to react once it does.

 

try to know if the market is really going up or down or its being set up for the suckers to get in right when the market turns around. are the bulls or bears getting squeezed?

 

my best to you!