Developing Trader's State of Mind Discussion

[gosu 10]

True, it is not the tremble in your boots type fear, but it is the deer in the headlights type fear. Nonetheless, it is fear.

 

Fear in trading is more like intuition for traders who are taking risks that are too big for their accounts. When one takes risks that are too big, his mind's built in accounting program is letting him know that he is heading down a destructive path.

 

To remedy the situation, one needs to use much better risk management.

 

No, I would not characterize it as "deer in the headlights" type fear because a few of these people met their margin calls so they could stay with their position. More likely, it was ignorance combined with a lack of fear - a deadly combination.

[johnw 10]

No, I would not characterize it as "deer in the headlights" type fear because a few of these people met their margin calls so they could stay with their position. More likely, it was ignorance combined with a lack of fear - a deadly combination.

 

 

Hi gosu,

 

In my homegrown mind, these People are completely disabled by fear ...yes they may meet their margin call but it is because they cannot face the reality of closing the position.... the pain is too great..... and I am not referring to money.

 

I do not see fearlessness in this action ....your choice of 'ignorance' in the sense that they have no idea how they truly function would be a more apt description.

[Rande Howell 10]

SUIYA

 

The root of emotional regulation as I work with it is about initially disrupting an already established pattern that triggers an unwanted behavior repetiore, whether it's avoidance based or impulse based. In trading these hard wired patterns are vastly skewed toward fear based patterns. That's why my emphasis is so focused there. I'll get 10 fear cases to 1 impulse case. The major difference in working with people who have impulse problems is the amount of time invested in teasing apart the triggering mechanism of the established pattern of impulse.

 

There will be subtle (or not so subtle) antecedents before the on set of an impulse reaction. Most of these will go unnoticed because familiarity has moved them from the foreground of awareness to the background of awareness. As you learn how to slow down the process of the impulsive cascade, the person learns how manage the arousal of the emotion behind the impulse by disrupting elements within the chain of reaction.

 

The major way I use in decoding an impulse is by slowing down memory of an event so that with each sweep back through the memory, the linkage between the different elements becomes part of working awareness. Before the motivation of the impulse happens (attack), there will be a build up of emotional energy and the body will be cued for action. It is these that the client has to learn and have counter measures for. In addition there will be conditioned response to the triggering antecendent that disrupts the ramping up of energy (the impulse) in the neural circuitry.

 

In some cases it is simply biology that has run amok and simple mindfulness is applied as a safe guard. Other times meaning is a contributing factor to the maintaince of the impulse. I can't tell you how many traders have something to prove to someone (usually dead) about their worth, adequacy, mattering, or power that is at the root of the impulse. Other times the impulse is simply a piece of our biology that needs to be under better management.

 

What you cause me to consider here is actually building a learning system just for impulse. In speaking with you here, I've discovered that I have considered impulse to be a subset of fear (which it usually is). This is a bias that I need to examine.

 

Thanks

Rande Howell

[SIUYA 11]

SUIYA

 

What you cause me to consider here is actually building a learning system just for impulse. In speaking with you here, I've discovered that I have considered impulse to be a subset of fear (which it usually is). This is a bias that I need to examine.

 

Thanks

Rande Howell

 

my pleasure if it adds to the discussion.....and I think that is largely what gosu is also talking about. While as JohnW mentions the calm exterior may still hide fear, sometimes an issue might be nothing to do with fear (unless of course you subscribe to the idea that fear and love is the base to EVERYTHING )

Sometimes (Randes experience is 1 in 10) as you say it might be biology, it might be the extra chocolate bar, or beer at lunch..... regardless I appreciate that the mechanisms/process/solutions all seem to reside in similar methods to recognize and then temper the fear/impulse response.

(much the same as taking a breather before replying instantly to a thread on a forum that gets us riled up..., or even feeling like we need to have the last word ....not sure if that is driven by fear, :haha: or impulse :doh:)

thanks.

[johnw 10]

[quote=SIUYA;130855 (unless of course you subscribe to the idea that fear and love is the base to EVERYTHING )

.

 

exactly ... this is one of those big decisions that form the cornerstones of our lives ...and it is the basis of my view and my Wife's view on life... and yes it has been greatly tested and has grown stronger as a result.

[Rande Howell 10]

To all in the Developing Traders State of Mind group:

 

I just posted an article under Articles/Psychology whose title is

 

"If I KNOW How to Tade and Manage Rsk, Why Can't I Do It When the Money Counts?"

 

It is useful for the learning occurring in the course. It hasn't been vetted yet by TL so it's not got a link.

 

Rande Howell

[zdo 20]

Finally got around to skimming some of the recent ‘argument’ postings -

 

The phrase “fear based patterns” is emphasized and all of a sudden we see all kinds of dancing around… we’re reminded that “fear can be useful” and that it’s “not the tremble in your boots type fear” necessarily, and “Fear is just not the overriding emotion in trading that it's made out to be” etc etc. Toss in a few dispersions about the “failures” seeking help in such services – when in reality most of (and certainly the best) clients of coaching and trading syschologists are already high in the pareto – and the whole thread is dragged back into a misguided focus.

 

Folks, a broad physical, mental, soul, and spirit orientation exists which is based in ‘creative opportunity based patterns’. About one percent of the human population currently ‘has got it going on’. At the ‘first body’ level / physically / neurologically the “amygdali” (and associated regions - actually every 'cell') literally do a habitual 180 in orientation (without loss of the threat based option when it’s needed, btw)…parallel shifts occur in other ‘bodies’, mental, etc … Globally, many previous identifications are simply (but not necessarily easily) dropped, etc.

 

This thread is for those who are interested in that. It is not for those who are interested in manipulating, explaining, surviving, etc. “fear based patterns”

 

All the best,

 

zdo

[bobcollett 10]

Finally got around to skimming some of the recent ‘argument’ postings -

 

The phrase “fear based patterns” is emphasized and all of a sudden we see all kinds of dancing around… we’re reminded that “fear can be useful” and that it’s “not the tremble in your boots type fear” necessarily, and “Fear is just not the overriding emotion in trading that it's made out to be” etc etc. Toss in a few dispersions about the “failures” seeking help in such services – when in reality most of (and certainly the best) clients of coaching and trading syschologists are already high in the pareto – and the whole thread is dragged back into a misguided focus.

 

Folks, a broad physical, mental, soul, and spirit orientation exists which is based in ‘creative opportunity based patterns’. About one percent of the human population currently ‘has got it going on’. At the ‘first body’ level / physically / neurologically the “amygdali” (and associated regions - actually every 'cell') literally do a habitual 180 in orientation (without loss of the threat based option when it’s needed, btw)…parallel shifts occur in other ‘bodies’, mental, etc … Globally, many previous identifications are simply (but not necessarily easily) dropped, etc.

 

This thread is for those who are interested in that. It is not for those who are interested in manipulating, explaining, surviving, etc. “fear based patterns”

 

All the best,

 

zdo

 

Dear zdo

I understand I am only allowed to ask questions.!!

What the ..... are you talking about?? (devil)

 

Kind regards

bobc

[zdo 20]

Dear zdo

I understand I am only allowed to ask questions.!!

What the ..... are you talking about?? (devil)

 

Kind regards

bobc

 

bobc,

 

...talking about potential for true health...

in 'trading', but not just in trading...

depending on the aspect perspective, it goes under different handles...

"effortless high performance", etc. etc.

What the ..... are you talking about??

To me, it's starting to look like past a certain point , "talking " can become an obstacle for participants.

 

re: "I understand I am only allowed to ask questions"

In the ideal only those who are active in the course would be posting in this thread...

but conversations about the underlying principles and issues being presented are not being censored.

Plus

:helloooo:

another new or existing thread is only a couple clicks away... same or new and different players would jump right in if you push the right buttons.

 

zdo

[bobcollett 10]

zdo,

Do not go to South America with Mr. Jones/Randell

bobc

[gosu 10]

Hi gosu,

 

In my homegrown mind, these People are completely disabled by fear ...yes they may meet their margin call but it is because they cannot face the reality of closing the position.... the pain is too great..... and I am not referring to money.

 

I do not see fearlessness in this action ....your choice of 'ignorance' in the sense that they have no idea how they truly function would be a more apt description.

 

What do you think they feared that they were disabled? Maybe they just liked to gamble and got a thrill out of it.

[Rande Howell 10]

Finally got around to skimming some of the recent ‘argument’ postings -

 

The phrase “fear based patterns” is emphasized and all of a sudden we see all kinds of dancing around… we’re reminded that “fear can be useful” and that it’s “not the tremble in your boots type fear” necessarily, and “Fear is just not the overriding emotion in trading that it's made out to be” etc etc. Toss in a few dispersions about the “failures” seeking help in such services – when in reality most of (and certainly the best) clients of coaching and trading syschologists are already high in the pareto – and the whole thread is dragged back into a misguided focus.

 

Folks, a broad physical, mental, soul, and spirit orientation exists which is based in ‘creative opportunity based patterns’. About one percent of the human population currently ‘has got it going on’. At the ‘first body’ level / physically / neurologically the “amygdali” (and associated regions - actually every 'cell') literally do a habitual 180 in orientation (without loss of the threat based option when it’s needed, btw)…parallel shifts occur in other ‘bodies’, mental, etc … Globally, many previous identifications are simply (but not necessarily easily) dropped, etc.

 

This thread is for those who are interested in that. It is not for those who are interested in manipulating, explaining, surviving, etc. “fear based patterns”

 

All the best,

 

zdo

 

zdo

 

Thank you. I will work more diligently to keep from getting suckered into these. Thanks for your leadership and direction.

 

Rande Howell

[zdo 20]

zdo,

Do not go to South America with Mr. Jones/Randell

bobc

 

:rofl:

 

Thanks… but no need to go to S.A.

Could sit right here and ‘commit suicide without really trying’…

or…

 

 

...

 

 

 

bobc twin, stop asking me to fkn talk to you ‘normal’

We don’t have time for that.

 

Are you thoroughly and gratefully dead?

How many times have you practiced dying?

How many times have you died?

[zdo 20]

Week 3

Great session. Thanks, Rande.

 

In my view, this is some real breakthrough work in creating practical access to ‘normals’ for working with material that typically gets stuck in merely the 'theoretical'…

 

 

 

Hope Rande has some more material on “shadow” work - Those protective AND regressive tendencies in the background that thrust themselves into the fray when changes are implemented, etc. … I woke up to some of those this morning .

Maybe he has already covered it but I’m too slow to have realized what to do.

My love for myth, carl, and archetypes is higher than average by a good shot but somehow…some of us are on the blinder, muter, and deafer end of the scale with this ‘inner’ work… especially when it comes to emotions represented by inner ‘figures’.

[Rande Howell 10]

Week 3

Great session. Thanks, Rande.

 

In my view, this is some real breakthrough work in creating practical access to ‘normals’ for working with material that typically gets stuck in merely the 'theoretical'…

 

 

 

Hope Rande has some more material on “shadow” work - Those protective AND regressive tendencies in the background that thrust themselves into the fray when changes are implemented, etc. … I woke up to some of those this morning .

Maybe he has already covered it but I’m too slow to have realized what to do.

My love for myth, carl, and archetypes is higher than average by a good shot but somehow…some of us are on the blinder, muter, and deafer end of the scale with this ‘inner’ work… especially when it comes to emotions represented by inner ‘figures’.

 

zdo

 

What most traders come to recognize is that the Orphan archetype in its shadow form has been center stage in their trading. From there, ruler (discipline) and warrior (courage) have been serving the Orphan, which puts them in shadow form.

 

The 4 element course is way too short to made an in depth study of the shadow side of the archetypal energies. I recommend Carol Pearson's Awakening the Heroes Within. She also has a archetypal index called the pmai that I use with my individual clients. It's a powerful tool. It is the lack of awareness of self that gets traders in trouble.

 

Rande

[zdo 20]

Thanks Rande.

I’m running a minor parallel analytical-like process along with the actual processes and questions come up like the following -

why just “orphan” as a starting state?

is mindlessness, in the ways you are using the term in the course, a key dynamic of “orphan”?

or is generalized mindlessness what makes it shadowy ?… ie I’m having some trouble understanding how orphan isn’t always in 'shadow' form (because it is a dev. stage, etc) ??…

 

Links relevant to the course for any of the other participants who are interested

 

honing in on flavors of ‘orphan’ etc.

The Agency of the Orphan: Archetypes | Anna Craycroft

 

orphan is preample to the hero’s journey. The first step in generalized hero’s journey is a separation from the ‘whole’ – separation from family, tribe, collective, normalcy, ( self ?) whatever…moving / developing is the ‘journey’ with its inevitable hazards and challenges… and the completion of the journey is a return to what the orphan/hero was separated from ( and also carrying something attained in the journey that the ‘whole’ needs…)

 

The ‘flavors’ of orphan that ‘move’ / develop

The Orphan Strikes Back: The Significance of Luke Skywalker's Orphan Origin, by Reihla

 

possibilities and stages of moving from ‘stuck’ orphan

Lost and Found: The Orphaned Hero in Myth, Folklore, and Fantasy by Terri Windling: Summer 2007, Journal of Mythic Arts, Endicott Studio

 

widening the context

Myss Library | Sacred Contracts | The Four Archetypes of Survival

[Rande Howell 10]

zdo

 

I intentionally force a square peg into a round hole. Archetypes make more sense if seen from an emotional point of view, where emotions are biological in nature and not psychological. Orphan in biological terms is our limbic system. It is this adaptation driven by fear that is at the core of moving from a fear based trading mind to a probability based trading mind. Our mindlessness to our Orphan nature is what keeps us trapped in self limiting beliefs from my perspective. The empowered side of Orphan is also where our resilency is rooted. Very necessary in trading. Most traders initially simply want to get rid of the Orphan, but it is rooted in our emotional brain so we can't. We can learn to re-grow it so that it becomes a working part of the team of the self. Developing Mindfulness, or awareness of our humanness, as we trade really opens up the possibility or reorganizing the self for more effective trading where our fear is detangled from uncertainty. This is where we can start developing a mindset to manage ambiguity.

 

Rande

 

Thanks Rande.

I’m running a minor parallel analytical-like process along with the actual processes and questions come up like the following -

why just “orphan” as a starting state?

is mindlessness, in the ways you are using the term in the course, a key dynamic of “orphan”?

or is generalized mindlessness what makes it shadowy ?… ie I’m having some trouble understanding how orphan isn’t always in 'shadow' form (because it is a dev. stage, etc) ??…

 

Links relevant to the course for any of the other participants who are interested

 

honing in on flavors of ‘orphan’ etc.

The Agency of the Orphan: Archetypes | Anna Craycroft

 

 

 

Rande Howell

orphan is preample to the hero’s journey. The first step in generalized hero’s journey is a separation from the ‘whole’ – separation from family, tribe, collective, normalcy, ( self ?) whatever…moving / developing is the ‘journey’ with its inevitable hazards and challenges… and the completion of the journey is a return to what the orphan/hero was separated from ( and also carrying something attained in the journey that the ‘whole’ needs…)

 

The ‘flavors’ of orphan that ‘move’ / develop

The Orphan Strikes Back: The Significance of Luke Skywalker's Orphan Origin, by Reihla

 

possibilities and stages of moving from ‘stuck’ orphan

Lost and Found: The Orphaned Hero in Myth, Folklore, and Fantasy by Terri Windling: Summer 2007, Journal of Mythic Arts, Endicott Studio

 

widening the context

Myss Library | Sacred Contracts | The Four Archetypes of Survival

[bobcollett 10]

Hi zdo

Only questions allowed

What has happened to the four other participants in this exercise?

Maybe they dont understand Hayek?

Kind regards

bobc

[johnw 10]

Possibly some of you may find these extracts of interest.

 

Krishnamurti on Fear

 

If letting go of fear of the unknown creates a perpetual state of curiosity, then everything from Trading to Rande's work and beyond has a natural tendency to fall into place.

Edited November 7, 2011 by johnw

[zdo 20]

Hi zdo

...

What has happened to the four other participants in this exercise?

Maybe they dont understand Hayek?

 

Turns out I have the only "orphaned limbic system" on TL. Everyone else is healed.

 

I am also the only TL member who doesn’t understand Hayek…Mostly, I can’t seem to make the necessary connections between his various models.

Everyone else understands, so if you were to explain you would only be explaining it to one person.

[zdo 20]

Possibly some of you may find these extracts of interest.

 

Krishnamurti on Fear

 

If letting go of fear of the unknown creates a perpetual state of curiosity, then everything from Trading to Rande's work and beyond has a natural tendency to fall into place.

 

Thanks johnw.

 

Excerpts from the link:

“The mind is the maker of fear “ …gonna have to call bs on that one

 

...paradoxically, I'm not calling bs on what follows that first quote

“(The mind is the maker of fear); and when it analyses fear, seeking its cause in order to be free from it, the mind only further isolates itself and thereby increases fear. When you use analysis to resist confusion, you are increasing the power of resistance; and resistance of confusion only increases the fear of it, which hinders freedom. In communion there is freedom, but not in fear."

[johnw 10]

Thanks johnw.

 

Excerpts from the link:

“The mind is the maker of fear “ …gonna have to call bs on that one

 

...paradoxically, I'm not calling bs on what follows that first quote

“(The mind is the maker of fear); and when it analyses fear, seeking its cause in order to be free from it, the mind only further isolates itself and thereby increases fear. When you use analysis to resist confusion, you are increasing the power of resistance; and resistance of confusion only increases the fear of it, which hinders freedom. In communion there is freedom, but not in fear."

 

Granted, his work may not be easy to grasp ... but at least you have read the piece addressing fear.

Further on into his work, Krishnamurti addresses the subject of 'judgements'

Edited November 7, 2011 by johnw

[zdo 20]

johnw ... on the subject of judgements, in my case Krishnamurti would be "preaching to the choir" ...

 

Related to the thread (and Rande can correct me if I'm off (or explain why) ) ... seems he uses the term 'assessments' instead of 'judgements' in the practical application work of the course...

[johnw 10]

johnw ... on the subject of judgements, in my case Krishnamurti would be "preaching to the choir" ...

 

Related to the thread (and Rande can correct me if I'm off (or explain why) ) ... seems he uses the term 'assessments' instead of 'judgements' in the practical application work of the course...

 

OK, assessment it is then ...'gonna have to call bs on that one' is an assessment

'

[gosu 10]

zdo

 

What most traders come to recognize is that the Orphan archetype in its shadow form has been center stage in their trading. From there, ruler (discipline) and warrior (courage) have been serving the Orphan, which puts them in shadow form.

 

The 4 element course is way too short to made an in depth study of the shadow side of the archetypal energies. I recommend Carol Pearson's Awakening the Heroes Within. She also has a archetypal index called the pmai that I use with my individual clients. It's a powerful tool. It is the lack of awareness of self that gets traders in trouble.

 

Rande

 

How much self-awareness does a person need to avoid trouble in the markets?

 

If a person knows all about orphans, rulers and warriors, and whether or not they are in shadow form, does it mean he has self-awareness?

 

More to the point, can a person extract from the markets without self-awareness?

 

 

In any case, I like how you admit that your 4-week course is too short and lacks "a powerful tool" you use only with your individual clients. I think that is called the "upsell" in marketing parlance. I'm sure if you offered it to zdo for free he would become your bosom buddy for life, or at least your ultimate shill. The "pmai" is it? To awaken the inner heroes? I think a pack of Yu Gi Oh cards does the same. I see the kids having a lot of fun with them after school at the local McDonald's.