Developing Trader's State of Mind Discussion

[zdo 20]

Progress Report: Implementing Session 2 – mindfulness work

 

OMG! – “adapted voices” (did you originate that term Rande?). They chatter on even when neither ‘I’ or nobody else either is listening!

 

… and watching a chorus of polarities running on unconsciousness (too bad they ain’t runnin’ on fumes… ). Without intention, the players that show up is like selecting by cutting the deck. Sometimes voiceless, they show up unannounced to mess with what are more than adequate, time tested, objective measures…

 

among them…wizard may show up, gambler may show up. And btw, as long as one is at choice even gambler can be ok, but is disastrous, though, if that is your default option

(ie ‘I’ choicefully gambled three times in the last week or so by holding fx overnight with no stops – 'won' twice, 'lost' once… ‘I’ also did ‘crowd seer’ once and 'won'.)

 

Speaking of gambler, ever notice how the desire to use chance to cheat/outrun time is what initially attracts so many to trading (and gaming, lotto’s, etc) RH has a good quote about that… I can’t remember it verbatim right now… maybe he can share it…

 

must also mention … slipping back into mindlessness for hours at a time… how do you spell artiztik addik? Addicted artist?

:haha: at this point though, I guess I’d rather be an addicted (to trading) artist than a drunk economist or even a drunk engineer...

 

just some blurbs…

yes it has sort of a wry, incoherent, shadowy spin for the readers …

but here, the job continues to be to see things as accurately and as nonjudgmentally as possible...

 

///

 

(not so) light reading - Eckhart Tolle

Do you believe his thoughts on the individual and collective ‘pain body’?

[zdo 20]

Progress Report: (still) Implementing Session 2 – mindfulness work

 

 

;)Part of this course was supposed to be about “managing” fear.

:haha:Well, I’m terrified and overwhelmed by the absolutely massive quantity of habitual mindless adapted voice activity that passes for ‘normal, adaptive living’ inside this particular unit.

All the reactive contents to the ‘adapted voices’ are also archetypal. Not sure how important it is to chase them back down the rabbit hole to find out for sure which ‘archetype’ it is if it’s not immediately identified upon its occurence. ?????

… and I don’t know for sure, but it seems to me the most important ground to come from does not place a negative or positive valuation on content or its accompanying emotional component.

[Rande Howell 10]

  zdo said:

Progress Report: (still) Implementing Session 2 – mindfulness work

 

 

;)Part of this course was supposed to be about “managing” fear.

:haha:Well, I’m terrified and overwhelmed by the absolutely massive quantity of habitual mindless adapted voice activity that passes for ‘normal, adaptive living’ inside this particular unit.

All the reactive contents to the ‘adapted voices’ are also archetypal. Not sure how important it is to chase them back down the rabbit hole to find out for sure which ‘archetype’ it is if it’s not immediately identified upon its occurence. ?????

… and I don’t know for sure, but it seems to me the most important ground to come from does not place a negative or positive valuation on content or its accompanying emotional component.

 

It's interpretation all the way to the core. And the core is beyond human reckoning. That said, we experience the opening and closing of possibility as we move through life or trading. When we label it as bad or good, we close down an important way of observing action. From where I stand, nothing is bad or good -- it is the opening and closing of possibility that I am observing. I bring characterazation to the opening and closing of possibility based on the observer I am of the event. The moment I assess without examing, I become locked into a viewpoint that blinds me to other ways of seeing and doing -- for better or worse. A critical question, say to a loss in trading, is: What is this revealing to me about the observer of organization of possibility that I am right now? Far more powerful than an assessment of bad or good.

 

If we come to the energy of an event without becoming attached to the labeling of it, we can work with the situation from a whole new observation point. The emotional signature of an archetypal element of self can then be awakened to work with the situation.

 

Challenge and uncertainty are simply the fabric of life and trading. It is the mindset that we bring to the challenge that creates the probability of whatever possibility arises from the challenge. Fear simply locks you out of the potential of a moment. It constricts possibility to a learned reactivity repetoire. That simply is its biological mandate. When we manage the fear, we become open to a very different way of observing the challenges and uncertainty found in trading. And we bring forth a very different world.

 

Rande Howell

[pat15 10]

  Quote

The only negative was that the webinars were all at 11:30pm on my side. It made it a bit difficult to stay focused and alert, but the recordings solved that.

  Quote

Pipsqueak

 

 

Hi Could you pl post the link where the webnars are located ... very interesting discussion.

 

 

Thank you

 

 

Pat

[SIUYA 11]

i was wondering -a month into it - time to reflect over Christmas/NY - any further thoughts on the process???

[Rande Howell 10]

  SIUYA said:

i was wondering -a month into it - time to reflect over Christmas/NY - any further thoughts on the process???

 

Since I don't keep stats on my webinar courses performances (only on my individual course), I join SIUYA in appreciating feedback.

 

Rande Howell

[zdo 20]

Haven’t been reporting because I took a long holiday… just now getting back into the swing …

 

Progress Report: Still implementing Session 2 – mindfulness

 

Bringing into awareness dimply what IS - some in terms of insights into the archetypal framework presented in the classes and some in an inner framework that uses no language / verbiage. Watching the pre-existing level s of the (archetypical) energies, identities, etc of those archetypes identified in the course as strengths to be brought to the fore, etc. …

 

Also took the PMAI. Nothing really surprising there.

 

Would also be interested in what the others are doing with this... thx

[zdo 20]

Progress Report:

Now that I ‘know’ or at least have developed sufficient awareness of how the ‘players’ / factors (previously and) currently operate within me (along with hopefully adequate awareness of the accompanying emotional ‘symphony’), I am now beginning to implement the essence of the week 3 session. It brings a certain set of challenges to me individually, and I can imagine and empathize how it could possibly bring many varied challenges to others during this part of the process.

 

 

... "passion and gradualness" pavlov

[zdo 20]

Update:

…still proceeding through my experiences of "Session 3"… by now I may completely off the reservation :rofl:

 

One thing I notice is just how inactive, sans ‘intervention’, some of the big four can be in a typical session or string of sessions

 

Another item of note is just how disparate my pre existing gestalt of the arch’s are from Rande’s (and his students that I have contact with.)

for one, mine is a developmental orientation… but the differences go far beyond that at times…

 

General question. If ____ and ____ archetypes were (generally more) active / available / less disowned, would my ‘stream of content’ be different? What would it sound like?

[Rande Howell 10]

  zdo said:

Update:

…still proceeding through my experiences of "Session 3"… by now I may completely off the reservation :rofl:

 

One thing I notice is just how inactive, sans ‘intervention’, some of the big four can be in a typical session or string of sessions

 

Another item of note is just how disparate my pre existing gestalt of the arch’s are from Rande’s (and his students that I have contact with.)

for one, mine is a developmental orientation… but the differences go far beyond that at times…

 

General question. If ____ and ____ archetypes were (generally more) active / available / less disowned, would my ‘stream of content’ be different? What would it sound like?

 

zdo

 

Wow! This is interesting, and I am not sure if my responses will be consistent with your observations and question. The "big four" are what I teach for the basic state of mind. They are discipline (Ruler), impartiality (Sage), courage (Warrior), and patience (Caregiver). Notice the link between emotional state and archetype - this is operationally how an inherent element of the self will show up in your awareness. Usually they are not present in a trader who has not become consistently successful. They really have to be brought forth into active awareness. I also teach Creator (intuition) and Destroyer (cutting losses early) as a client demonstrates that can work with the basic four in their trading (follow their trading plan).

 

Archetypes will express themselves in developmentally appropriate manners. For instance, the Orphan (the fear that traders often act from) also has an empowered side. It becomes the resilience and vigilance needed to maintain a developed state of mind under the rigors of trading.

 

For your question: I have no idea of how to approach it. Help me understand that last part.

 

Rande Howell

[Kiwi 16]

And back he comes with more discredited early last century jungian nonsense.

 

Funny how trading snake oil merchants hang in with this sort of rubbish.

[zdo 20]

Rande,

 

Amplifying on: “discipline (Ruler), impartiality (Sage), courage (Warrior), and patience (Caregiver). Notice the link between emotional state and archetype” and my comment about “just how disparate my pre existing gestalt of the arch’s are from Rande’s (and his students that I have contact with.)”

I do notice and experience the links btwn emotional state and archetype, but my pre-existing images of those arch’s you mentioned are not so internally and centrally associated with the emotional states you have them paired with. Another potential way of saying it is - while the listed emotional states do have a place at my tradestation, in my story those figures you have paired with them do not have so much of a place at my tradestation.

 

Expanding on this, long ago I gave trying to be impartial / non biased… ie I am not a fkn sage

:doh:

I am biased as hell and instead of working to banish it (like we're told to do by the mainstream trading education media), I settled on learning to use and leverage it. Example: Under certain conditions (and only under certain conditions – very important!!), from my (largely unconscious) biases, I project 3 maps of possible outcomes onto an objectively determined / non biased timeperiod. (To clarify for the traders where the bias is permissible and where it is not -if the time projections are wrong, I am not wrong, a model is wrong …but, if the projections are wrong, I am wrong.) Anyway, to most they look like EW ‘favored count’ projections, but aren’t EW based... and they are only one example of multiple places where I have surrendered to the impossibility of being ‘impartial’… getting back to the arch, a Sage may be 'impartial', but my personal imago of sage goes far far beyond impartial and even if I were able to bring forth up into active awareness my individual sage composite, it doesn’t seem to have much place at my tradestation…

 

I could give same kind of comparisons about discipline too… to keep it brief – Ruler has limited place at my workstation because I have discovered over the years that if I have to apply ‘discipline’ more than once or twice a month something is seriously wrong with the match between me and my edge(s). Similar contra indications show up in my ‘story’ for courage and compassion too…

 

Another type of disparity – re: your mention of creator and pairing it with intuition… for one - there’s intuition, as it is commonly used, and then there’s Intuition …. and while Intuition may be central in creation, my ‘inner creator’ is definitely not coming from an Intuitive or an intuitive ‘emotional state’ …. ie work in creative tension quickly and discretely moves the experience away from either of those ‘intuitives’.

 

I made these comments and clarifications to report my own individual experieces with the course... not to impune it. All that said --- even as a ‘deviant’ student, I find great value in working through the progression you introduced in the course. Your students I have been introduced to who are more naturally suited to it are definitely getting much more value… and the progression would open a whole new world to the many noobs who find themselves driven in almost total emphasis on discovery of effective process…

 

 

 

 

 

 

To clarify the “would…‘stream of content’ be different? What would it sound like?” question. If we could transcribe the ‘self talk’ of one of your proficient students who has these archetypes correctly lined up, callable, and operational and transcribe my ‘self talk’ where your version of Ruler and Sage are not so ‘alive’ - how wouild they be diffeent? If we could transcribe my current ‘self talk’ and then transcribe a potential ‘self talk’ with all those big four brought forth, how would they be different… just wondering about how things would be different on the verbal steam ‘axis’

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS Kiwi, it’s inspiring to me that you have transcended ‘story’…

just curious, did you develop that or were you that way from birth?

[Rande Howell 10]

  zdo said:

Rande,

 

Amplifying on: “discipline (Ruler), impartiality (Sage), courage (Warrior), and patience (Caregiver). Notice the link between emotional state and archetype” and my comment about “just how disparate my pre existing gestalt of the arch’s are from Rande’s (and his students that I have contact with.)”

I do notice and experience the links btwn emotional state and archetype, but my pre-existing images of those arch’s you mentioned are not so internally and centrally associated with the emotional states you have them paired with. Another potential way of saying it is - while the listed emotional states do have a place at my tradestation, in my story those figures you have paired with them do not have so much of a place at my tradestation.

 

Expanding on this, long ago I gave trying to be impartial / non biased… ie I am not a fkn sage

:doh:

I am biased as hell and instead of working to banish it (like we're told to do by the mainstream trading education media), I settled on learning to use and leverage it. Example: Under certain conditions (and only under certain conditions – very important!!), from my (largely unconscious) biases, I project 3 maps of possible outcomes onto an objectively determined / non biased timeperiod. (To clarify for the traders where the bias is permissible and where it is not -if the time projections are wrong, I am not wrong, a model is wrong …but, if the projections are wrong, I am wrong.) Anyway, to most they look like EW ‘favored count’ projections, but aren’t EW based... and they are only one example of multiple places where I have surrendered to the impossibility of being ‘impartial’… getting back to the arch, a Sage may be 'impartial', but my personal imago of sage goes far far beyond impartial and even if I were able to bring forth up into active awareness my individual sage composite, it doesn’t seem to have much place at my tradestation…

 

I could give same kind of comparisons about discipline too… to keep it brief – Ruler has limited place at my workstation because I have discovered over the years that if I have to apply ‘discipline’ more than once or twice a month something is seriously wrong with the match between me and my edge(s). Similar contra indications show up in my ‘story’ for courage and compassion too…

 

Another type of disparity – re: your mention of creator and pairing it with intuition… for one - there’s intuition, as it is commonly used, and then there’s Intuition …. and while Intuition may be central in creation, my ‘inner creator’ is definitely not coming from an Intuitive or an intuitive ‘emotional state’ …. ie work in creative tension quickly and discretely moves the experience away from either of those ‘intuitives’.

 

I made these comments and clarifications to report my own individual experieces with the course... not to impune it. All that said --- even as a ‘deviant’ student, I find great value in working through the progression you introduced in the course. Your students I have been introduced to who are more naturally suited to it are definitely getting much more value… and the progression would open a whole new world to the many noobs who find themselves driven in almost total emphasis on discovery of effective process…

 

 

To clarify the “would…‘stream of content’ be different? What would it sound like?” question. If we could transcribe the ‘self talk’ of one of your proficient students who has these archetypes correctly lined up, callable, and operational and transcribe my ‘self talk’ where your version of Ruler and Sage are not so ‘alive’ - how wouild they be diffeent? If we could transcribe my current ‘self talk’ and then transcribe a potential ‘self talk’ with all those big four brought forth, how would they be different… just wondering about how things would be different on the verbal steam ‘axis

 

zdo

 

I have merged emotional intelligence theory with archetypal theory, for sure. It's an intentional bias. This is based on the asssumption that WE ARE EMOTION and cognition comes out of emotion. I would say that the symbolic representation of getting at the energy of an archetype is rooted to an emotional base -- and this is the reason I link emotion to archetype. For the curious, symbolic representation is the phenomenon where the brain converts electrical behavior in neural networks to symbols and objects for pattern recognition and thought. Out of this comes a mind that has produced a symbolic representation of the world it is interpreting. Humans experience thought (the product of symbolic representation) either in visual, auditory, or feeling terms. Early on, I experienced a number of traders who could not effective produce visual or auditory representation of thought or archetype. What I found, though, was that everyone could (because they have biology) experience the energy of an archetype by the feeling aspect of perception. Out of this, I began building the sense of an archetypal presence from the feeling component of an emotion -- since it is the element of an emotion that compels us to believe in the certainty of a particular symbolic representation. This approach has resulted in much better development and use of the archetypes by traders.

 

What I have also done intentionally is to narrowly focus the archetypal energy for its usefulness in trading. Sage, for instance, I define as impartiality. It can also be defined as wisdom in the literature. It's very nuanced. But in trading, without impartiality in decision making, effective trading is really difficult. Discipline, as the feeling associated with Ruler, is the same. There are other qualities of the Ruler archetype that exist, but in trading, discipline is basic to trading performance. The list goes on.

 

Intuition as Creator.... I hold that there are at least two forms of intuition. One is pattern recognition on an unconscious level. Years of chart reading gives a trader a "sense" of what the market is going to do. This elements needs to be incorporated into a trading mind. However, I work with people who have flashes of intuition that are not connected to pattern recognition. They seem to come out of the blue. This may be creator or magician. It is formless and simply appears out of nowhere. And it also needs to be worked into a traders mind. However, I hold that the trading committee (the mind) needs to be well structured before elements like this are added to the mix.

 

In this sense, my work is for traders who have not developed their mind for trading yet. I find few who have. But, over time, a trader who has become successful has either developed these qualities from overt talents or they have struggled through and found them. From what I gather, there is a strong intuitive element in your trading. Usually it takes a good long time for a person to develop this element so that it is an effective element in the trading mind that trades. Good for you.

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

Rande Howell

[zdo 20]

Update:

The ‘big four’ brought forth for trading ( and actually ALL the archetypes) are powerful, emotionally rooted, capacities.

 

…this way doesn’t bring freedom from emotion… more… it’s freedom of emotion… actions made strong and coherent by emotions’ involvement and contribution…

 

just sometimes ?? … this work opens a numinous realm that can sometimes have the feel of ‘beyond mere mortal’… :haha:I guess that’s why they call them archetypes and develop myths around them, etc ? …

 

... The work becomes bringing forth the best constellation of these energy conduits for each situation...

 

:helloooo:…AND YET!!!!!! you must not identify with any of them !!!!!!

 

 

btw… Rande, Yours is already a tiny niche and what you offer is not so much for beginners (which this forum has had a large uptick in…)

I know not much will head into your pipeline from here, but please keep at least a minimum presence in here. ie show up every month or so .. so that those who are really ready for this level of work have you as a option. All the best. zdo

[Rande Howell 10]

  zdo said:

Update:

The ‘big four’ brought forth for trading ( and actually ALL the archetypes) are powerful, emotionally rooted, capacities.

 

…this way doesn’t bring freedom from emotion… more… it’s freedom of emotion… actions made strong and coherent by emotions’ involvement and contribution…

 

just sometimes ?? … this work opens a numinous realm that can sometimes have the feel of ‘beyond mere mortal’… :haha:I guess that’s why they call them archetypes and develop myths around them, etc ? …

 

... The work becomes bringing forth the best constellation of these energy conduits for each situation...

 

:helloooo:…AND YET!!!!!! you must not identify with any of them !!!!!!

 

 

btw… Rande, Yours is already a tiny niche and what you offer is not so much for beginners (which this forum has had a large uptick in…)

I know not much will head into your pipeline from here, but please keep at least a minimum presence in here. ie show up every month or so .. so that those who are really ready for this level of work have you as a option. All the best. zdo

 

 

zdo

 

You are right. Freedom of emotion is the aim of the process I use. It is not freedom from emotion. When people recognize that emotion is inescapable, manifests in the body whether they like it or not, and that the feeling element of emotion does, in fact, direct the quality of our thinking -- they begin to wake up to how to manage the creation of their lives and trading accounts very differently. It moves from the allure of quick fixes to understanding that the notion of the self that a person has settled into has to be reorganized to bring forth a greater expression of human potential (financial success as a trader). And trading has the unique quality of forcing a person to examine their actions and beliefs because the speed of trading forces consequences far faster than the speed of life. In life, a person can maintain destructive beliefs because the feedback loop is so slow (just look at any smoker), while in trading the beliefs embedded in patterned emotional responses is immediate.

 

In my writing, I tend to stay focused on the biology and Emotional Intelligence elements because it is easier for people to see this happening in their trading. The archetypes represent not just a fix but a design element to way a person engages life. Being able to manage yourself emotionally is the first step. Adding Mindfulness and the Internal Dialog is not such a leap then. This is why I start with body memory, move to emotion, and then to thought.

 

Archetypes are inherents elements of our humanness that, because they are embedded in the body, are also directly linked to emotional expression and are part of our potential expression. I do focus on the "big four" (plus the Orphan) initially within a narrow range because I have found that a trader can become successful with this basic awareness. But it is simply the tip of the ice berg. Magician (changing the perceptual map), Creator (intuition), Destroyer (cutting losses quickly, and Jester (letting the past go after a bad or good trade). And a trader's passion (Lover) is the motivation for the Seeker to enter the journey of exploring his humanness (his spirituality). When we fuse our identity with them and they become us, we close the door on our potential. They are all expressions of our potential humanness. And they need to be recognized and organized to bring forth the gifts of our humanness.

 

I figured out a while back that generally TL self selects as group in the direction of do-it-yourself mentality and are biased toward negative interpretation if they have to pay for learning how to learn. That's okay. I learn much from them. People really don't get how much work there is involved in changing the beliefs they hold about the world. And there as some seasoned traders who I both listen to and study here. But you are right, it is not a place clients come from. My motivation is that I have a focused interest in how people organize the self to become successful traders. From that standpoint, TL is a great labortory to observe and participate in. My consulting business is focused on developing relationships with methodology teachers. They can teach methodology to their students until they are blue in the face, but until the mind is developed for managing risk as it exists in probability, the student does not become a successful trader.

 

Be well.

 

Rande Howell