Developing Trader's State of Mind Discussion

[zdo 20]

This thread is for the Rande Howell 4 week webinar participants to share, question, and refine on the material presented in class.

 

(Until after Nov 9, for those not attending the webinar please restrict your posts to questions only. Open another thread if you have other content on this particular area of trading 'psychology' to contribute and we'll meet you there. Thanks.)

[Tradewinds 12]

Just took Class 1 and found it very helpful. It's the kind of experience that defined for me what I sort of knew, but I never really consciously dealt with. My major fear in trading, and in life, is the fear of making a mistake. It comes with being a perfectionist. It's something that I "know", but have never really brought to the forefront of my consciousness. It's very difficult to deal with a problem that never really gets named. The problem needs to be first defined. So that's one thing I got out of the class.

 

But the most important thing that I believe the Class offers is a way to train my mind to develop a parallel mindset that can be used to deal with the automatic thoughts that sabotage the ability to think clearly under stress.

 

The class provides a structure and the process that I can use to practice a new way of thinking. You learn ABC's by reciting them over and over. Now I can practice visualizing myself being successful at trading.

[Rande Howell 10]

Just took Class 1 and found it very helpful. It's the kind of experience that defined for me what I sort of knew, but I never really consciously dealt with. My major fear in trading, and in life, is the fear of making a mistake. It comes with being a perfectionist. It's something that I "know", but have never really brought to the forefront of my consciousness. It's very difficult to deal with a problem that never really gets named. The problem needs to be first defined. So that's one thing I got out of the class.

 

But the most important thing that I believe the Class offers is a way to train my mind to develop a parallel mindset that can be used to deal with the automatic thoughts that sabotage the ability to think clearly under stress.

 

The class provides a structure and the process that I can use to practice a new way of thinking. You learn ABC's by reciting them over and over. Now I can practice visualizing myself being successful at trading.

 

The first class is about naming the fear, so that you have a handle to grasp a tool with. But most importantly, it is about developing the fundamental tools used to quell emotional tempests. Getting that under management -- all that breathing, SafePlace, and Fear Inoculation stuff - is about developing the tools to deal with the biology of emotion. With that tool, the body can be calmed and we can actually get to the problems of psychology that plague traders.

 

Rande Howell

[zdo 20]

The forum medium’s limitations aside, will it really help me or anyone else if I disclose here?

[Rande Howell 10]

The forum medium’s limitations aside, will it really help me or anyone else if I disclose here?

 

If we can't be open about ourselves in trading here, I am willing to simply open a forum attached to my website where the environment fosters social learning. This is important to me and is why I choose a public forum. How public remains to be seen.

 

Let me know.

 

Rande Howell

[bloom48 10]

The first class is about naming the fear, so that you have a handle to grasp a tool with. But most importantly, it is about developing the fundamental tools used to quell emotional tempests. Getting that under management -- all that breathing, SafePlace, and Fear Inoculation stuff - is about developing the tools to deal with the biology of emotion. With that tool, the body can be calmed and we can actually get to the problems of psychology that plague traders.

 

Rande Howell

 

Hi guys. I am from Russia. My name is ALex.I have a questions.

In my trading i have an edge and i could do very good scalps. But than deal comes to a trade, my subconsciousness drives me to get out/ Sometimes it right, sometimes not. How could i do so that my subconsciousness were right in most cases.?

If i let it drive i ll be able to do scalps and 70% of them wold be profitable,but i want to do trades too, and this is there my subconsciousness not very good.

[Pipsqueak 10]

I was definitely impacted by the first webinar.

 

I realised that I have a terrible fear of loss, and more often than I should be tend to sit on the side lines watching the trades go in the direction I looked at.

 

Busy practicing my breathing and going to my safe place will take time I think, but all in all a good first class

[zdo 20]

If we can't be open about ourselves in trading here, I am willing to simply open a forum attached to my website where the environment fosters social learning. This is important to me and is why I choose a public forum. How public remains to be seen.

 

Let me know.

 

Rande Howell

 

Thanks Rande. I'm not used to 'social learning' anymore. I'm used to toughing it out on my own.

My question was not so much about being open and disclosing per se as it was about how much leverage the "social learning" aspect of the process a text forum medium would provide.

I'm willing to make the best of it with what we got, but also curious if voice chats or something would be more effective with the "social learning" component.

[zdo 20]

I was definitely impacted by the first webinar.

 

Busy practicing my breathing and going to my safe place will take time I think, but all in all a good first class

 

Pipsqueak,

I wonder what the minimum and maximum time range is for someone to make the protocols he introduced 'habit' for any uncertainty based emotional perturbation that arises while trading (or living life in general)

 

My commitment is to do it for every 'emotion' that comes into awareness while trading... didn't take long this morning to become aware of how many "avoid"ance tricks I've got at the ready to keep me from experiencing these upsets. I need to rig up some biofeedback somehow... any ideas anyone?

 

zdo

 

PS off topic smilly -Just noticed this is post 999 for me. Free assoc'ing ----- Would prefer H. Cain to BO but not sure about his 999 plan... course if everyone else is against it so badly, it probably is close to the mark...

[Rande Howell 10]

Thanks Rande. I'm not used to 'social learning' anymore. I'm used to toughing it out on my own.

My question was not so much about being open and disclosing per se as it was about how much leverage the "social learning" aspect of the process a text forum medium would provide.

I'm willing to make the best of it with what we got, but also curious if voice chats or something would be more effective with the "social learning" component.

 

zdo -- Don't know how much leverage. We're going to find out.

 

My hope is that "voice chats" happen and people are able to develop a rigor in their helping one another. The guy from Russia is doing exactly that. He's making inquiry based on comments already made. My desire is for the focus to remain what is opening up in their understanding of themselves in trading. Pipsquip (msp) is on the money. He sees the fear of loss happening in his trading and recognizes that interrupting the arousal of fear by breathing and self soothing are the first steps in the journey for him. He also doesn't advise -- he simply relates his experience.

 

This is engaging. My hope is that people dial in and explore.

 

Rande Howell

[Rande Howell 10]

Pipsqueak,

I wonder what the minimum and maximum time range is for someone to make the protocols he introduced 'habit' for any uncertainty based emotional perturbation that arises while trading (or living life in general)

 

My commitment is to do it for every 'emotion' that comes into awareness while trading... didn't take long this morning to become aware of how many "avoid"ance tricks I've got at the ready to keep me from experiencing these upsets. I need to rig up some biofeedback somehow... any ideas anyone?

 

zdo

 

zdo

 

As a person builds the skill sets, he doesn't go through them in a linear fashion. Leaps are made. Our job, particularly in the beginning, is to make sure that when a leap is made that the rest of the learning is also pulled in the chain.

 

Emotion will be linked to internal parts of self soon. This is much like football. The student practices skill sets and over time they become automatic and not thought about. They become automatic memory as are the associations that you don't want to show up in trading.

 

Rande Howell

[Rande Howell 10]

Hi guys. I am from Russia. My name is ALex.I have a questions.

In my trading i have an edge and i could do very good scalps. But than deal comes to a trade, my subconsciousness drives me to get out/ Sometimes it right, sometimes not. How could i do so that my subconsciousness were right in most cases.?

If i let it drive i ll be able to do scalps and 70% of them wold be profitable,but i want to do trades too, and this is there my subconsciousness not very good.

 

I would want to get a better understanding of what "subconscious" forces you are talking about. Usually they are simply parts of ourself that we avoid seeing. And in trading, what we have avoided so well comes to stalk us.

 

What you'll notice is that the first skill set worked with is breathing and relaxation. It is these skills that keeps the brain from over reacting and we can begin to see what is actually going on in the mind that stops us from performing better.

 

Rande

[zdo 20]

First Class: My experiences

When we got to the list of which of the fears “really clicked” –

No one of them really clicked. Closer to real was that I had them all except one of them.

…and that they rotate. Multiple rotating fears… one will be ascendant for a while then another, or I am susceptible to several of them at once…

more later...

[pat15 10]

Sorry to ask but where can one take the webnars. Thank you for the help. Very interesting for me and run into many issues posted here.

 

Regards

 

 

pat

[zdo 20]

Just took Class 1 and found it very helpful. It's the kind of experience that defined for me what I sort of knew, but I never really consciously dealt with. My major fear in trading, and in life, is the fear of making a mistake. It comes with being a perfectionist. It's something that I "know", but have never really brought to the forefront of my consciousness. It's very difficult to deal with a problem that never really gets named. The problem needs to be first defined. So that's one thing I got out of the class.

 

But the most important thing that I believe the Class offers is a way to train my mind to develop a parallel mindset that can be used to deal with the automatic thoughts that sabotage the ability to think clearly under stress.

 

The class provides a structure and the process that I can use to practice a new way of thinking. You learn ABC's by reciting them over and over. Now I can practice visualizing myself being successful at trading.

 

Tradewinds,

 

When I read your post, I asked myself what is he trying to say with “the most important thing that I believe the Class offers is a way to train my mind to develop a parallel mindset”, etc.

Maybe you just plain ole meant what you said and no more or less, but for me what you said triggered the following –

when these acts are practiced, it is crucial to ‘interupt’ habitual fear based pathways, but the real gains come from building alternate (“parallel” ?? , a better concept may be simply a “new”) neural pathway for engaging similar subsequent situations.

 

Really making these new patterns is where that last fear on the list ( why is that one in red? ) may be ‘mine’... risk of discomfort for no benefit at best, and a possible homeostasis wreck and insanity at worst … (in a word) neurosis.

 

I think I need 3 weeks between classes to really root some of this stuff...

 

Thanks for the post.

 

zdo

[SpearPointTrader 10]

My biggest problem is lack of fear. When I am a bit nervous, I do fairly well, and follow my system. However, at some point I begin to feel like I can't lose. I get very calm, and develop an almost dream like detachment. When that happens, I can't win to save my life.

 

Once I realize i have entered this stat of mind, getting out is easy. I just walk away and pursue an activity that is physically challenging. Things like hiking, sailing and martial arts practice are at the top of the list.

 

The real problem I need help with is identifying that I have slipped into this state before i rack up lots of losses.I can always tell once I get back out, but never while I am in it,

 

Any advice?

[Rande Howell 10]

My biggest problem is lack of fear. When I am a bit nervous, I do fairly well, and follow my system. However, at some point I begin to feel like I can't lose. I get very calm, and develop an almost dream like detachment. When that happens, I can't win to save my life.

 

Once I realize i have entered this stat of mind, getting out is easy. I just walk away and pursue an activity that is physically challenging. Things like hiking, sailing and martial arts practice are at the top of the list.

 

The real problem I need help with is identifying that I have slipped into this state before i rack up lots of losses.I can always tell once I get back out, but never while I am in it,

 

Any advice?

 

These kinds of situations will be addressed as we move into mindfulness training. What you are talking about is at the level of internal dialog. The emotional regulation practices are used to calm an emotion down before it takes over mind. There will be a subtle ness to your situation where emotion corrupts mindset, so the ER skills are a start. But learning to see what you can,t currently see is the point of entry for you from my estimation. stay tuned, these skills will be explored soon.

rande Howell. I,m on my new iPad and trying to get the feel of it. a little clumsy right now.

[zdo 20]

Some questions have emerged about ‘safeplace’ . Instead of an imagination (using as many ‘senses’ as possible, etc), is it ok to just use a ‘place’ in self that is what I’m like at my best?

 

This got triggered when I was first viewing the sample images in the presentation and was amused (among other reactions) by the oddity that I found some personal ‘trauma’ or aversion or anxiety associated with almost all those images…( if you’re interested let me know and I’ll share the details – some of them are entertaining)

… anyways, (and shtfar, I hope I don’t have the “prisoners’” deficits with safeplaces :smoking:) can I use ‘aspects of me at my best’ as a safeplace?

In the session, the word memory was used almost exclusively in relation to safeplace. Basic question is - Does it have to be a 'memory' ? thx

Edited October 25, 2011 by zdo
+ 1 mo ?

[Rande Howell 10]

Some questions have emerged about ‘safeplace’ . Instead of an imagination (using as many ‘senses’ as possible, etc), is it ok to just use a ‘place’ in self that is what I’m like at my best?

 

This got triggered when I was first viewing the sample images in the presentation and was amused (among other reactions) by the oddity that I found some personal ‘trauma’ or aversion or anxiety associated with almost all those images…( if you’re interested let me know and I’ll share the details – some of them are entertaining)

… anyways, (and shtfar, I hope I don’t have the “prisoners’” deficits with safeplaces :smoking:) can I use ‘aspects of me at my best’ as a safeplace?

In the session, the word memory was used almost exclusively in relation to safeplace. Basic question is - Does it have to be a 'memory' ? thx

 

zdo

 

After an event has happened, you are left with the memory of it. Here we are looking for a memory that the brain has associated with a calm, soothed state of mind. what ever memory you have that already have these elements embedded into it is workable. We are trying to get the mind to work with us also. You are on the right track.

 

Rande Howell

[SIUYA 11]

not sure if this is the best place for this post.....

I watch TED and get weekly emails to interesting discussions....this was came in and was topical.

 

Iain McGilchrist: The divided brain | Video on TED.com

 

Especially the last part, that we often forget that the brain is made up of two parts - the logical and the intuitive.

 

(feel free to ignore this - I just thought the post might be topical - and plus, TED is a great resource for those with inquisitive minds and spare time )

[Rande Howell 10]

not sure if this is the best place for this post.....

I watch TED and get weekly emails to interesting discussions....this was came in and was topical.

 

Iain McGilchrist: The divided brain | Video on TED.com

 

Especially the last part, that we often forget that the brain is made up of two parts - the logical and the intuitive.

 

(feel free to ignore this - I just thought the post might be topical - and plus, TED is a great resource for those with inquisitive minds and spare time )

 

It's a great place. Fundamentally what all this is about is how the "mind" emerges from the brain. Emotion and thinking are deeply inner connected, and as we learn more about the archetecture of the brain, the more we are able to work with mind.

 

Lesson One is all about learning to manage the emotional brain (where all that intuition comes from) so that the thinking brain has the right set of emotions to trade from.

 

Rande Howell

[zdo 20]

Thought I would have more opportunities to apply the ‘interrupts’ realtime but simply haven’t. For example, on Fri. I was in six trades of any size / consequence. I didn’t really experience much in the way of “emotion” , as Rande defines it, in any them. I don’t think the uncon. emotional meter needles moved much at all anytime during those trades either. One of them dilly dallied around some. I just went to other workspaces and screens (is that avoidance?) and when I came back later it was filled…

 

btw, some think that all 'rational' state wherein a trade simply either ‘will work or it won’t work’ is the optimum space for a trader to be in. It isn’t!!! That’s one of the reasons why I stay interested in these “personal applied neurofinance”* aspects of trading.

 

Also, struggling with running solo ‘inoculation’ sessions to completions… as I said before, I need 3 weeks btwn classes…

 

You guys looking forward to tonight?

 

 

 

 

PS * Tams if you read this… over in the webinar invitations thread you asked Rande what he was selling. Rande is more than welcome to correct me if wrong, but I think he is selling “personal applied neurofinance” and his pricing, etc can be found at tradersstateofmind. com

fyi

[Tradewinds 12]

I suggest that a yahoo group get created for discussing things specific to the course. Don't stop discussing things here, just have a separate yahoo group for the course. Yahoo groups are free. I've created groups before. With the yahoo group the members would be specifically committed to an objective, and the discussion could be more in depth.

 

Some forums and groups have the capability of have sub groups of members. So you're a member of the site, but you could also be in a private group within the group. This thread is open to everyone. That's not bad, but there are times when being in a smaller, more "private" group is appropriate.

[zdo 20]

Thanks Tradewinds. Good idea. Set one up and send a link - I'm there.

I would welcome and appreciate if some of the participants in the webinar who are more experienced with this work get involved.

I was thinking of trying a voice livechat. Like scheduled or ad hoc DimDim's.

Anyone interested?

 

Immediate thoughts after Session 2:

things didn't unfold in me in the sequence presented in the 2nd guided meditation, ... among other things, a kinesthetic orphan (or orphaned kinesthetic) showed up and that sort of put everything on hold during ...but

I'm finding great value in raising the principles and the essence of this approach to awareness... "As to methods, there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods" R.Waldo Emerson

Edited October 27, 2011 by zdo

[Tradewinds 12]

Thanks Tradewinds. Good idea. Set one up and send a link - I'm there.

 

Here is a link to the group I just set up. People can join only with my approval. Only group members can post to the group. (Private discussion group) If someone does not want to post to the private group, they can simply make a post here. Post will not be approved, and will be posted immediately, but I won't hesitate to delete anything that I feel is not constructive.

 

TradersStateOfMind : Trader's State of Mind

 

I set the group up, so I'm the owner. I run the show. But if anyone wants to be a moderator, or become owner of the group, just let me know.