Webinar Scholarships

[Rande Howell 10]

interesting discussion between gosu and Rade

If I could weigh in with a few opinions as food for thought.

Rande - I think one of the problems a lot of traders have from a psychological aspect has absolutely nothing to do with "demons", it has more to do with - as Gosu touched on - previous methods of learning and approaching problems. The reward for being right v wrong, as opposed to just accepting trading is more than this. (I have seem some socially mentally flawed people - with plenty of demons - who are pretty good traders , possibly because they are physcos)

 

I would agree with the view that while everyone can be taught, some people are sadly just not equiped and either due to a lack of adequate mental facilities, desires, or a simple mis wiring then their struggle will only get them to just good enough, maybe they are too much the bleeding heart.....and here I think the point is - just good enough is not enough.

While being the best may not be everyones grand plan, just being good enough will not work either. You need to take trading (and in the wedinars case, the mental aspects of it) seriously enough to be way better than the average - especially if the 90-95% failure rate is to be believed.

All parties understand you need to be committed to this if you wish to make it a profession, and the hardest thing to understand is that what works and is successful in the "real world" is not what is required in the trading world.....and so comparing the ideas of giving back (from the point of a billionaire ) and a lot of other socially nice/feel good personal growth issues often misses the point - there is nothing about feeling good and doing the socially responsible thing when trading - what you do after you make it are different things.....and while we can understand it is a lot about the money narrative, using billionaries as an example after they have made it is IMHO not going to help a struggling trader.

 

Psychological demon is a term I use for self limiting beliefs. In the polls I do on my webinars, a full 60-70% of the people voting find perfectionism as the biggest obstacle in their performance in trading. In this organization of self, the person believes they shouldn't lose. Yes, this is a learned belief from families and culture, but it is still a self limiting belief in the domain of trading where trading success is measured in the management probabililties rather than the need to be right. It is that belief that becomes the psychological demon. As an accountant this belief could be an effective belief, but not in trading.

 

We are all embedded in a historical conversation about money, worth, mattering, and adequacy. From my perspective, this is unavoidable. I have worked with a number of traders who have gotten to a successful level of success, and once they hit this goal -- they began to realize that money did not solve deeper exitential questions about their value as a human being. They thought it would, but it didn't. This was my intent in discussing people like Bill Gates. Other traders don't bring this kind of history into trading. It is a very different narrative for them. For sure, other traders never revisit their attachment to money and continue to live their lives.

 

I have also worked with a number of traders who have Asperger-like personalities where emotional nature was extremely limited. They have the makings of very successful traders. This lack of emotional intelligence shows up in other areas of their lives as a problem in their ability to connect with others and build attachment. In trading, and for them, these qualities serve them well.

 

The large majority of people learning to become traders really need to develop a mindset that allows them to separate fear from uncertainty -- and learn to manage it. It is this domain of people that need help. People who have already figured this out clearly do not need help building a psychology that opens the door to effective trading.

 

Bottom line, the assumption I hold is that all percieved reality is observer created. As you awaken the observer of thought, beliefs, and biasews to new perspectives, the observer changes and therefore the circumstance that they create changes.

 

Rande Howell

[johnw 10]

good morning

 

A good starting point in any new venture is WHY ... why do I think that I want to do this

... what part of me is leading the attraction

 

If you know yourself well enough, you can separate the temptation of Self Indulgence

from the desire to to carefully nurture your abilities and beliefs into action that makes it possible for you to advance your life plan.

 

If you are struggling to understand this, then take a look at the global chaos around you.

This is all the outcome of Self Indulgence ..... that moment in life where our 'Wants' totally blind us to the 'Bill' that follows later.

 

Well, guess what .... 'Later' has now arrived at a global level and it is no different than what happens to each of us on an individual level when we allow Self Indulgence to lead the way.

 

IMHO, Trading is more or less 80% physiological [internal rebuilding], 18% Understanding of How The Markets REALLY work and 2% maths.

 

We Buy when the market is about to rise and Sell when the market is about to fall.

 

If any of us have committed 110% to achievement in Music, The Arts, Sport in our younger years, then the first real awareness we encounter is 'Do I really want this'

 

If the answer is 'Yes, at all costs' then we push on ... If the answer is only 'Yes' then we bail out a bit further down the line.

 

'Yes, at all costs' means we are ready to commit to completely aligning ourselves to the task at hand.

 

If your chosen path is Sport, Music, The Arts [to a lesser extent] or the Navy Seals, then Teachers, Coaches and Instructors will help reshape you otherwise you are history.

 

If you think you want to Trade the Markets then you only have little old YOU .. and if you contain one gram of self Indulgence that you are completely unaware of, then you are toast before you even begin ... and the sad thing is you will most probably never ever be aware of it.

 

Personally, I would like to see everyone succeed at Retail trading ...

[zdo 20]

Application Process is now closed. Thanks to all who applied. Notices will be going out within the hour.

 

(PS If you have a change of heart btwn now and Wed. you might try asking Rande directly via PM if he can allocate more openings.)

 

All the best,

 

zdo

[gosu 10]

Psychological demon is a term I use for self limiting beliefs. In the polls I do on my webinars, a full 60-70% of the people voting find perfectionism as the biggest obstacle in their performance in trading. In this organization of self, the person believes they shouldn't lose. Yes, this is a learned belief from families and culture, but it is still a self limiting belief in the domain of trading where trading success is measured in the management probabililties rather than the need to be right. It is that belief that becomes the psychological demon. As an accountant this belief could be an effective belief, but not in trading.

 

We are all embedded in a historical conversation about money, worth, mattering, and adequacy. From my perspective, this is unavoidable. I have worked with a number of traders who have gotten to a successful level of success, and once they hit this goal -- they began to realize that money did not solve deeper exitential questions about their value as a human being. They thought it would, but it didn't. This was my intent in discussing people like Bill Gates. Other traders don't bring this kind of history into trading. It is a very different narrative for them. For sure, other traders never revisit their attachment to money and continue to live their lives.

 

I have also worked with a number of traders who have Asperger-like personalities where emotional nature was extremely limited. They have the makings of very successful traders. This lack of emotional intelligence shows up in other areas of their lives as a problem in their ability to connect with others and build attachment. In trading, and for them, these qualities serve them well.

 

The large majority of people learning to become traders really need to develop a mindset that allows them to separate fear from uncertainty -- and learn to manage it. It is this domain of people that need help. People who have already figured this out clearly do not need help building a psychology that opens the door to effective trading.

 

Bottom line, the assumption I hold is that all percieved reality is observer created. As you awaken the observer of thought, beliefs, and biasews to new perspectives, the observer changes and therefore the circumstance that they create changes.

 

Rande Howell

 

I realize there is a lot of money up for grabs in trading "education" but have you considered taking a small amount of money, say $10,000, and opening a futures account to test out your beliefs? You must have all the beliefs you say are necessary to trade, so all you need is a methodology which I recall you saying can be picked up in a classroom.

 

My guess is you would struggle mightily. However, it might be a good exercise for you as I'm sure it would "awaken the observer of thoughts, beliefs, and biases to new perspectives."

[Rande Howell 10]

I realize there is a lot of money up for grabs in trading "education" but have you considered taking a small amount of money, say $10,000, and opening a futures account to test out your beliefs? You must have all the beliefs you say are necessary to trade, so all you need is a methodology which I recall you saying can be picked up in a classroom.

 

My guess is you would struggle mightily. However, it might be a good exercise for you as I'm sure it would "awaken the observer of thoughts, beliefs, and biases to new perspectives."

 

A repeating pattern re-emerges. The test for competency in trading is for people who have passion for trading. Please check into the forum about the course. That's the criterion for other to assess by. There is grounding rather than an axe to grind. Out side of that, not interest in getting sucked into the cyclic nature of your conversations.

 

Be well

Rande

[SpideySense 10]

A repeating pattern re-emerges. The test for competency in trading is for people who have passion for trading. Please check into the forum about the course. That's the criterion for other to assess by. There is grounding rather than an axe to grind. Out side of that, not interest in getting sucked into the cyclic nature of your conversations.

 

I often wonder about what people reveal by the language they use. With those whose second language is English then most things can and should be excused. A higher degree, which one assumes was awarded by a serious educational institution, would suggest that one had a command of the language. I think there is a lot revealed by this paragraph.

[johnw 10]

I often wonder about what people reveal by the language they use. With those whose second language is English then most things can and should be excused. A higher degree, which one assumes was awarded by a serious educational institution, would suggest that one had a command of the language. I think there is a lot revealed by this paragraph.

 

 

Why don't you share your thoughts with us.

[Rande Howell 10]

I often wonder about what people reveal by the language they use. With those whose second language is English then most things can and should be excused. A higher degree, which one assumes was awarded by a serious educational institution, would suggest that one had a command of the language. I think there is a lot revealed by this paragraph.

 

Yeah, a lot was revealed. Here is what was revealed in my mind in rereading my answer. That I should not reply to comments in a hurry as my wife is urging me out the door so we can go out to dinner. That review button is pretty cool for buffing up comments. You'd figure that after 4 books and a past career in advertising as a creative director, photographer, and copywriter that I could write English better than that. Go figure. I do apologize for not reviewing my comments before submitting. And I promise not to place my desire for food and my wife's irritation with the amount of time I spend on this forum in front of my responsibility to present readable copy in front of people. But the intent of my response was on the mark of what I wanted to say.

 

Rande Howell

[SIUYA 11]

Yeah, a lot was revealed. Here is what was revealed in my mind in rereading my answer. That I should not reply to comments in a hurry as my wife is urging me out the door so we can go out to dinner. That review button is pretty cool for buffing up comments. You'd figure that after 4 books and a past career in advertising as a creative director, photographer, and copywriter that I could write English better than that. Go figure. I do apologize for not reviewing my comments before submitting. And I promise not to place my desire for food and my wife's irritation with the amount of time I spend on this forum in front of my responsibility to present readable copy in front of people. But the intent of my response was on the mark of what I wanted to say.

 

Rande Howell

 

Dont worry Rande......you should try trading for a living, its far more revealing

 

I look forward to seeing the webinar

[MightyMouse 12]

Yeah, a lot was revealed. Here is what was revealed in my mind in rereading my answer. That I should not reply to comments in a hurry as my wife is urging me out the door so we can go out to dinner. That review button is pretty cool for buffing up comments. You'd figure that after 4 books and a past career in advertising as a creative director, photographer, and copywriter that I could write English better than that. Go figure. I do apologize for not reviewing my comments before submitting. And I promise not to place my desire for food and my wife's irritation with the amount of time I spend on this forum in front of my responsibility to present readable copy in front of people. But the intent of my response was on the mark of what I wanted to say.

 

Rande Howell

 

So, then, your wife is to blame for your errors. It's not a stretch to assume that she makes you make mistakes in other parts of your life too. Want to talk about it?

[Rande Howell 10]

Dont worry Rande......you should try trading for a living, its far more revealing

 

I look forward to seeing the webinar

 

SIUYA

 

As always, I appreciate your double-edged humor. I didn't know you were coming. Look forward to it also. I'll tell you what is interesting to me. A number of people asked to come to this webinar. 5 were selected. And only 3 actually have followed through. It may be that they had to actually give a real email address (Go to Webinar requires it). Or life got in the way. Not sure. But they have not as of this moment taken advantage of a $750 value that they were being offered for free. My concern is that people's hesitation to act in their own concerns is pretty shallow, even when the door is opened for them. I understand the hesitation to act when risk is involved, but there is zero risk here. zdo went through some effort to select, to the best of his ability, those who were sincere and motivated. Where is the commitment to action to the follow through? Sounds like a trading issue to me......

 

PS. I will review before submitting.

 

Rande Howell

 

 

 

 

 

Rande Howell

[Rande Howell 10]

So, then, your wife is to blame for your errors. It's not a stretch to assume that she makes you make mistakes in other parts of your life too. Want to talk about it?

 

It's a big stretch, being that you have no basis for the assessment -- outside of your suspicions. One of the pieces in this course helps people move from making ungrounded assessments about characterizations of people rather than their performances to grounded assessments where the observer's suspicions, biases, and conjecture are no longer projected onto the performance of another.

 

The world changes when we become aware that we are projecting our stuff on other people and start owning it.

 

Rande Howell

[gosu 10]

Your reference to $750 "value" being offered for free and "zero risk" to attend reminds me of the advice I heard in a $3000 week-long course. One of the mornings was designated for a field trip to a local Starbucks and then to a bookstore in the same mall that had a prominent display of trading books.

 

We gathered around the "trainer" holding our free lattes as he held up some books and told us which books were "must haves." He also continued that there is no such thing as a "bad" trading book because if you get just one idea that helps your trading it would be worth the price of the book. It sounded reasonable at the time and I saw people nodding in agreement.

 

Of course, eventually I learned the truth that the one good idea isn't the problem but the many crappy ideas I might pick up. If it was possible for a beginner to filter the myths from the truths, learning to trade would be fairly straightforward. But we know that's not possible. Sometimes the free stuff ends up costing the most.

[Tams 20]

You are invited to apply for a full scholarship to participate in an upcoming 4 session trading psychology webinar with Rande Howell.

 

If you are interested, please return to me., zdo, a 1 or 2 paragragh (ie very short) description via PM of your need to work on your trading and self at this level. Also address your level of commitment to completing the course.

 

This offer is open to traders of all levels of experience who see value in including non trading methods work in their development as a trader.

 

zdo

 

 

Note to admin: Please allow the one duplicate post found at

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/beginners-forum/10919-webinar-scholarships.html

and / or move the first thread to announcements.

Thanks.

 

since when did you become a shill?

[zdo 20]

Your reference to $750 "value" being offered for free and "zero risk" to attend reminds me of the advice I heard in a $3000 week-long course. One of the mornings was designated for a field trip to a local Starbucks and then to a bookstore in the same mall that had a prominent display of trading books.

 

We gathered around the "trainer" holding our free lattes as he held up some books and told us which books were "must haves." He also continued that there is no such thing as a "bad" trading book because if you get just one idea that helps your trading it would be worth the price of the book. It sounded reasonable at the time and I saw people nodding in agreement.

 

Of course, eventually I learned the truth that the one good idea isn't the problem but the many crappy ideas I might pick up. If it was possible for a beginner to filter the myths from the truths, learning to trade would be fairly straightforward. But we know that's not possible. Sometimes the free stuff ends up costing the most.

 

That's interesting. Long ago, I personally probably spent more money and time on crap than anyone up here in this forum... sheer personal stupidity... yet I do not regret one bit of the 'myths' I had to slough through... beginners mind, etc...

[gosu 10]

That's interesting. Long ago, I personally probably spent more money and time on crap than anyone up here in this forum... sheer personal stupidity... yet I do not regret one bit of the 'myths' I had to slough through... beginners mind, etc...

 

Not that it's important, but I wouldn't be so sure you hold the title here for the biggest buyer of crap.

 

I do not spend time on regret. Not all side trips are avoidable and maybe some are even necessary. However, what I see now is that there are a lot more of them. For me they are easy to avoid; I know how to do things better than when I first began. But that is mostly a personal benefit.

 

In my dealings with others, I would not endorse or recommend anything that I have not used to good effect. Obviously our viewpoints differ on this.

[MightyMouse 12]

It's a big stretch, being that you have no basis for the assessment -- outside of your suspicions. One of the pieces in this course helps people move from making ungrounded assessments about characterizations of people rather than their performances to grounded assessments where the observer's suspicions, biases, and conjecture are no longer projected onto the performance of another.

 

The world changes when we become aware that we are projecting our stuff on other people and start owning it.

 

Rande Howell

 

Your statement:

 

"Yeah, a lot was revealed. Here is what was revealed in my mind in rereading my answer. That I should not reply to comments in a hurry as my wife is urging me out the door so we can go out to dinner."

 

is the only basis for my comment. It sure seemed that you were blaming your wife's urging you out the door for your errors that you normally would not have made.

 

Perhaps you do harbor some anger towards your wife and subconsciously want to blame her for things that really have nothing to do with her. There is much to be said for clearing these demons from your subconscious, allowing you to take ownership of your own mistakes. Or, perhaps you do not harbor anger and are merely following a primal script akin to a caveman beating his chest when his wife refuses to make him dinner and makes him take her out instead.

 

I am the fool for speculating but I think it is rather clear that the finger of blame is pointed to your wife for urging you out the door for your grammatical errors.

[Rande Howell 10]

Your reference to $750 "value" being offered for free and "zero risk" to attend reminds me of the advice I heard in a $3000 week-long course. One of the mornings was designated for a field trip to a local Starbucks and then to a bookstore in the same mall that had a prominent display of trading books.

 

We gathered around the "trainer" holding our free lattes as he held up some books and told us which books were "must haves." He also continued that there is no such thing as a "bad" trading book because if you get just one idea that helps your trading it would be worth the price of the book. It sounded reasonable at the time and I saw people nodding in agreement.

 

Of course, eventually I learned the truth that the one good idea isn't the problem but the many crappy ideas I might pick up. If it was possible for a beginner to filter the myths from the truths, learning to trade would be fairly straightforward. But we know that's not possible. Sometimes the free stuff ends up costing the most.

 

 

gosu

Why not check out your projections before believing them? Talk to people over the next several weeks. Or you can stay where you are. Either way, it is your world that you are building, not mine. Good luck.

 

Rande Howell

[gosu 10]

gosu

Why not check out your projections before believing them? Talk to people over the next several weeks. Or you can stay where you are. Either way, it is your world that you are building, not mine. Good luck.

 

Rande Howell

 

Rande, thanks for your concern. But really it's not necessary. I like to keep moving forward. Avoiding side trips is important in that regard.

 

In any case, I am not building your world. I merely made a comment regarding your statement that your course was "zero risk" to take because it was free, that it reminded me of unsound advice I had heard. Consider it just my opinion; my opinion cannot build anything.

[Rande Howell 10]

Your statement:

 

"Yeah, a lot was revealed. Here is what was revealed in my mind in rereading my answer. That I should not reply to comments in a hurry as my wife is urging me out the door so we can go out to dinner."

 

is the only basis for my comment. It sure seemed that you were blaming your wife's urging you out the door for your errors that you normally would not have made.

 

Perhaps you do harbor some anger towards your wife and subconsciously want to blame her for things that really have nothing to do with her. There is much to be said for clearing these demons from your subconscious, allowing you to take ownership of your own mistakes. Or, perhaps you do not harbor anger and are merely following a primal script akin to a caveman beating his chest when his wife refuses to make him dinner and makes him take her out instead.

 

I am the fool for speculating but I think it is rather clear that the finger of blame is pointed to your wife for urging you out the door for your grammatical errors.

 

Mighty Mouse

 

Wow. My hope is that you have as much training and experience in psychology and experience with people as you do in trading to base your observations on. If you are going to bully (or be honest with), at least try to find a domain in which you are competent to assess in. My hope is that you stick to trading. Once again, I see little reason to be in converation with you. My hope is that you are well in your world and have found deep connection in friendship and purpose that gives your life meaning. It is not a world I would choose to live in.

 

Rande Howell

[Rande Howell 10]

Rande, thanks for your concern. But really it's not necessary. I like to keep moving forward. Avoiding side trips is important in that regard.

 

In any case, I am not building your world. I merely made a comment regarding your statement that your course was "zero risk" to take because it was free, that it reminded me of unsound advice I had heard. Consider it just my opinion; my opinion cannot build anything.

 

Please take your own advice

[MightyMouse 12]

Mighty Mouse

 

Wow. My hope is that you have as much training and experience in psychology and experience with people as you do in trading to base your observations on. If you are going to bully (or be honest with), at least try to find a domain in which you are competent to assess in. My hope is that you stick to trading. Once again, I see little reason to be in converation with you. My hope is that you are well in your world and have found deep connection in friendship and purpose that gives your life meaning. It is not a world I would choose to live in.

 

Rande Howell

 

I do admit that I have as much training in psychology as you do in trading. I suppose I can take the low road and blame my wife for my miscalculations, but in my world, which you would choose to not live in, we take responsibilities for our own actions. Denial is only a band-aid on a sore that does not heal.

[zdo 20]

I usually have to hope my post doesn't kill a thread - but this time I hope it does

[Tams 20]

 

 

Please take your own advice

 

Please tell us, what exactly you are selling, and how much does it cost?

[gosu 10]

Please take your own advice

 

You lost me. I'm not aware I was offering advice.

 

 

From your other thread:

 

I would want to get a better understanding of what "subconscious" forces you are talking about. Usually they are simply parts of ourself that we avoid seeing. And in trading, what we have avoided so well comes to stalk us.

 

What you'll notice is that the first skill set worked with is breathing and relaxation. It is these skills that keeps the brain from over reacting and we can begin to see what is actually going on in the mind that stops us from performing better.

 

Rande

 

A couple of questions for the professional advice giver:

 

1. How does a person who doesn't trade know "in trading, what we have avoided so well comes to stalk us"? What is the basis for this statement? It is obviously not from your own experience.

 

2. Breathing and relaxation while trading are well and good. But aren't the problems of not breathing and not relaxing mere symptoms and not causes of poor performance? Why is the person not breathing and not relaxing? Could it be because his emotions are telling him he is unsure what's going on?

Edited October 20, 2011 by gosu