Webinar Scholarships

[zdo 20]

You are invited to apply for a full scholarship to participate in an upcoming 4 session trading psychology webinar with Rande Howell.

 

If you are interested, please return to me., zdo, a 1 or 2 paragragh (ie very short) description via PM of your need to work on your trading and self at this level. Also address your level of commitment to completing the course.

 

This offer is open to traders of all levels of experience who see value in including non trading methods work in their development as a trader.

 

zdo

 

 

Note to admin: Please allow the one duplicate post found at

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/beginners-forum/10919-webinar-scholarships.html

and / or move the first thread to announcements.

Thanks.

[gosu 10]

Just curious as to why Rande is not touting the webinar and the "scholarship" himself.

 

I am in a feisty mood and offer this challenge to Rande:

 

If you are up to having your webinar reviewed by a seasoned trader, offer me a scholarship and I will attend your webinar with an open mind and upon its completion I will provide a thorough and brutally honest review to you and this community.

[zdo 20]

gosu,

 

Rande could also offer you or others a scholarship if he likes...maybe PM him if you don't like the idea of 'jumping through my hoops' ...

hope he is applying the same criteria I am - applicant's real interest and need and not the promise of a testimonial...

 

zdo

[gosu 10]

So you are operating on your own and without his knowledge. OK, that clears it up a bit.

 

It would seem that the site owner does not prohibit getting free advertising so I was just curious as to the method of plugging the seminar via the offer of a "scholarship" through an agent.

[zdo 20]

My interest is in benefitting traders, not marketing.

If the site allows this, many thanks. If not, so be it.

 

... and Rande is aware I'm doing this ... just to keep everything above board...

 

Thousands and thousands of traders out there who put thousands and thousands of hours into method / edge / market reading... this is a chance for a few of them to complement all that work with a few hours of self development work.

[gosu 10]

My interest is in benefitting traders, not marketing.

If the site allows this, many thanks. If not, so be it.

 

... and Rande is aware I'm doing this ... just to keep everything above board...

 

Thousands and thousands of traders out there who put thousands and thousands of hours into method / edge / market reading... this is a chance for a few of them to complement all that work with a few hours of self development work.

 

Whether or not your motives are altruistic, you are plugging the webinar through your "scholarship" announcement. It doesn't bother me one bit. As I stated, I was just curious as to why he would go through you, given the lax vendor oversight on this site. It was just idle curiosity.

 

I take it that you are a satisfied client and thus the reason for your endorsement. I am rather skeptical as you already know. But I limit my skepticism to what I've gleaned from his posts and articles since I am not a customer.

[zdo 20]

I take it that you are a satisfied client and thus the reason for your endorsement.

 

...more truth in ‘advertising’ ...

I am not a client (at least not yet)

I have read and reviewed his first book (at http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/book-reviews/9246-mindful-trading__mastering-your-emotions-inner-game.html) and most of the articles he has published herein. I have also asked him some questions here on TL. That is the extent of my contact with him.

 

While I have suggested to him that spending some time actually trading would vastly improve his rapport with traders, I did not, within that perspective, suggest that trading experience would improve his ability to help traders progress. In every performance ‘game’ / work, while they have coaches who have previously mastered the art, they also - at the highest levels of every performance work - engage specialized coaches who can assist in raising the ‘mental game’ without knowing much at all about the specific operational skills involved…this is an opportunity to expose yourself to that kind of coaching and improve at those levels.

 

Why am I promoting this webinar?

Fear. Whether it is episodic or habitual, fear degrades ‘options awareness’. It interferes with choice. It lowers the level of performance in a ‘performance’ world.

 

Without using the same terms, they are talking about the same basic thing over in the most recent posts of http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-psychology/1202-95-traders-lose-stat-misleading-9.html right now.

A trader’s ‘markets’ must remain a ‘good’ kind of unpredictability and mystery and there is only one way that is possible – in neuro terms, both amygdales must remain oriented to opportunity instead of possible threats ie in ‘effortless’ high performance the neuro system and peptide 'juices' must operate in an absence of fear

 

I deal with my fear by capitalization and never letting any single position go into size or adversity to where it ‘hurts’. I have self congruent edges and multiples more position / screen time than whole groups of our noobs combined, BUT if I had to start with a small account I would have the same fear obstacles poorly capitalized noob traders have. My almost 25 years of perseverance in this field is telling you: Regardless of current experience and performance levels - those who man up and avail themselves of this opportunity will be glad they did in the long term.

[Rande Howell 10]

Just curious as to why Rande is not touting the webinar and the "scholarship" himself.

 

I am in a feisty mood and offer this challenge to Rande:

 

If you are up to having your webinar reviewed by a seasoned trader, offer me a scholarship and I will attend your webinar with an open mind and upon its completion I will provide a thorough and brutally honest review to you and this community.

 

gosu

 

My intent is to help some traders build psychological skills necessary for their trading. It is not to seek approval from someone. I asked zdo to moderate a forum because feedback in the past from this particular course indicated that having a forum to discuss would help integrate the work. zdo over time has also proven level headed and genuinely motivated to help others learn -- and not appear as an overlord. These traits seem appropriate for a moderator. And zdo graciously accepted my invitation. His acceptance allows me to leverage my time more effectively.

 

You are welcome to apply for the scholarship, or you could register at the course price. You could bring your opinions to the forum on TL like every other trader. If you are a trader who wants the opportunity to engage this work and learn, then please apply. Then, people of all levels of trading will have the opportunity to assess the value of Developing Traders State of Mind. And walk away with something intended as a gift.

 

Rande Howell

[Rande Howell 10]

So you are operating on your own and without his knowledge. OK, that clears it up a bit.

 

It would seem that the site owner does not prohibit getting free advertising so I was just curious as to the method of plugging the seminar via the offer of a "scholarship" through an agent.

 

gosu

 

No one can stop you from having your opinions. This is actually something that folks at TL and I have discussed in the past and I decided that I would like to make this offer. One of the reasons is because of something zdo asked me after I had not participated in the psychology forums recently. My reply to him was that I did't see much psychology going on. He was surprized. And after reflection, I thought I'd make this offer.

 

I personally haven't found these forums to be a great lead generating machine. My webinars with affiliates and my speaking at conferences are much more effective. My participation in the forums is more about keeping contact with people who are struggling with their psychology, but are not ready to commit to personal change. Learning more about the process of moving from hesitation to commitment to action is more of what I am after here.

 

I truly don't see this as effective promotion for me. But I do see the struggle in people and wanted to contribute. If I want promotion, I'll keep my webinars with MetaStock and ForexClub, have them recorded so they can be viewed on their websites or on utube.

 

So... there you go.

 

Rande Howell

[steve46 12]

Mr. Howell

 

I like your idea...I assume that you will evaluate the applications so that you pick people who have the best chance to benefit from your appproach. Like many others I would be interested in hearing from those scholarship winners, just how the experience affected their trading.

 

Good luck with your program

[Rande Howell 10]

Mr. Howell

 

I like your idea...I assume that you will evaluate the applications so that you pick people who have the best chance to benefit from your appproach. Like many others I would be interested in hearing from those scholarship winners, just how the experience affected their trading.

 

Good luck with your program

 

steve46

 

Well, being that it is going to be public information and I'm not in charge of the forum, it should be easy to access without filters from me. I'm leaving zdo in charge of evaluation. I trust his judgement. And I look forward to the discourse that is brought forth.

 

Rande Howell

[gosu 10]

gosu

* * *

You are welcome to apply for the scholarship, or you could register at the course price. You could bring your opinions to the forum on TL like every other trader. If you are a trader who wants the opportunity to engage this work and learn, then please apply. Then, people of all levels of trading will have the opportunity to assess the value of Developing Traders State of Mind. And walk away with something intended as a gift.

 

Rande Howell

 

Hi Rande,

 

I have no interest in either applying for a scholarship or paying for your course. My time is valuable to me and there would have to be a compelling reason for me to do either. I made the offer to review your course for this community because it is curious to me that your course is purported to be helpful to traders who are struggling when you do not know how to extract from the markets yourself. The offer of a "scholarship" is touted as something valuable when the course may be an utter waste of time or, even worse, lead a person to learn incorrectly.

 

Here is my opinion that I bring to this forum. One of my favorite chess books is "Think Like a Grandmaster." The author, Alexander Kotov, was a grandmaster, and a very strong one at that. He came out of the Soviet chess school and played at the highest levels of tournament chess. I am not a grandmaster, but when I studied his writings I felt confident that I was reading grandmaster-level insight and analysis--getting a look at the "grandmaster mind," if you will.

 

You teach a course called "Developing Trader's State of Mind." I do not think it is unfair of me to ask, how does a person who does not trade know what a trader's state of mind is? Did he read trading books? Talk to a lot of people who call themselves traders? Attend seminars? Those are the same things the people signing up for courses like yours have done.

 

If I wanted to obtain a grandmaster's mind, I might start by picking the brain of an actual grandmaster. Fortunately, in chess it is easy to verify that the person claiming to be a grandmaster is in fact a grandmaster. Even with that, however, I would not be fully aware of what a grandmaster mind is until I became a grandmaster myself.

 

I don't think it's much different in trading.

Edited October 13, 2011 by gosu

[gosu 10]

* * *

 

I personally haven't found these forums to be a great lead generating machine.* * *

 

I truly don't see this as effective promotion for me.* * *

 

And yet you still promote yourself here. So what's your point exactly?

[SIUYA 11]

gosu - I think you make some valid points, however if it is transparent, open to anyone to apply, free and all it will take is some time then whats the harm? Most traders have wasted far more time on much worse things.

The argument that you need to be a master at something before teaching others does not wash - some people are just good at teaching, and not so good at doing - many who are good at doing are actually really poor teaches.....and in this case if i understand it correctly (in a general sense) Rande is offering his skills/expertise not in trading, but in how to help people temper/overcome/control those fears - however they manifest - this may be applicable in many areas.

I for one would be interested in applying but am taking an extended break from trading at present as I have moved countries and want to relax and do something different for a while. Offering trading experience from memory in such a webinar - without real time feedback is a waste of time.....for me and the other participants.

 

So while I may be a skeptic and more than happy to question things, for me it will still be interesting, and it seems a great trade - apply for something, it costs nothing but a bit of time, it might help tremendously and if not then so what.

Too many complain about vendors who are not open, transparent, wanting money before showing what they can do, not independently evaluated (Zdo seems pretty independent) - this seems like a good idea that covers a lot of the compliants......as for Randes motivation - who cares - if its to generate more clients - then he is a fully disclosed vendor, if its through his own personal interest - all good. He is actually taking the risk here...

 

I would have to agree as Zdo says...."Regardless of current experience and performance levels - those who man up and avail themselves of this opportunity will be glad they did in the long term."

[Rande Howell 10]

gosu

 

I actually appreciate your comments. They provide a good stage for traders to explore their perceptions about trading -- and are given the opportunity of questioning them. So keep the comments coming.

 

Observe the forum and find out how a mind can be trained for trading. Then assess from that position. This is my invitation to you. My sense about your assessments is that no matter how much evidence is presented, your opinion would never change. I'm comfortable with that. But, check out the forum and see what is happening as people go through the course. It will at least give you a basis for evaluation.

 

It is the human mind and beliefs that engage the tools of trading. The tools of trading do not trade, the human being and mind do. Teaching people to face their fears and their self limiting beliefs so that they can act from inherent strengths is not limited to trading. It is the way we create our lives. When I talk trader educaters, they are very clear that the missing element in their teaching is the psychological element. They simply don't know how to teach it. So there seems to be a serious problem with experienced and successful traders being able to teach the psychological skills needed to perform the methodology they are teaching. It is simply a different skill set than they possess. The need for managing emotions and changing self limiting beliefs is exposed by trading. Trading does not teach you how to change basic beliefs that limit a trader's potential.

 

In trading, that drama of life is on steriods. It cannot be avoided as in other domains of performance. What the vast majority of traders acknowledge is that the same fears and beliefs that inhibit their trading performance are also active in other aspects of their lives. They are just no so in your face as in trading. It takes a person who has a grasp of human nature, not trading, to work with belief. It is then applied to trading. In particular, few people are taught in their formative period how to separate uncertainty from fear -- the body and brain certainly do not naturally. It is a process that can be taught

 

There should be traders who have gone through my training in this forum. I know they will be attending the course. Whether they will be participating in the forum, I don't know. They are not active on TL. If some do participate, engage them. There will still be folks exploring the course with each other. And, if you can, bring an open mind. If not, well, that's okay also.

 

To your prosperity

 

Rande Howell

[zdo 20]

:spam:

Scheduled bump

 

It wasn’t seen as important to the ‘wizards’ author, so it never got much attention in our (wonderfully helpful to all) stock paradigms of trading success but -----

It is more than ok for a trader to be emotionally intense!

However, it must be accompanied by EQ / high awareness.

 

How Emotions Fuel Good Decisions - Andrew O?Connell - Harvard Business Review

 

http://www.affective-science.org/pubs/2007/seobarrett2007.pdf

Edited October 13, 2011 by zdo

[clmacdougall 11]

Let me get this straight, Rande is not a trader? Is this the case zdo? Don't you think it would be quite hard for him to identify with the mix of logic, math, rapid decision making and the possibility of intense emotions that can be attached to a trading experience?

[zdo 20]

macd,

 

When faced with a certain threshold of uncertainty, the untrained brain switches modes.

..."fear is a Kick Me sign to the universe" in trading and also in activities outside of trading...

 

Rande has studied how our neurology works and ways to train and program it more generally... it's an alternative niche.

May change my tune after the webinar, but for now the only benefits I see to him having trading experience would be easier rapport and more credibility with traders... and I personally don't need either of those things to open to this horizon.

 

A sports example: Both are important - but in tennis, right now I personally would value someone who could help me attend correctly when I'm tired and winded and starting to tense up and over compensate, etc. more than I would value someone who could tell me exactly how to improve the 'bio mechanics' of my strokes.

 

See the similarities to trading?

 

zdo

Edited October 13, 2011 by zdo

[gosu 10]

gosu

 

I actually appreciate your comments. They provide a good stage for traders to explore their perceptions about trading -- and are given the opportunity of questioning them. So keep the comments coming.

 

* * *

 

Hi Rande,

 

Glad to be of help. You already know my comments are not personal. Moreover, I have not criticized your webinar per se, as I have no experience with it.

 

I see myself as someone who can have an open mind about things. Thus, I can be open to the idea that a therapist might be helpful to a trader as a nutritionist or a physical trainer might be helpful regarding peripheral but important things connected to performing. Such a person would already know how to extract from the markets but for whatever reason is struggling to get his shit together and just do it. It is my feeling that there are very few people in this category.

 

In any case, I will be checking out the forum and will squawk in with a comment if I'm overcome with desire to do so. Best of luck with your webinar.

[Rande Howell 10]

Hi Rande,

 

Glad to be of help. You already know my comments are not personal. Moreover, I have not criticized your webinar per se, as I have no experience with it.

 

I see myself as someone who can have an open mind about things. Thus, I can be open to the idea that a therapist might be helpful to a trader as a nutritionist or a physical trainer might be helpful regarding peripheral but important things connected to performing. Such a person would already know how to extract from the markets but for whatever reason is struggling to get his shit together and just do it. It is my feeling that there are very few people in this category.

 

In any case, I will be checking out the forum and will squawk in with a comment if I'm overcome with desire to do so. Best of luck with your webinar.

 

Most human beings I have met are struggling to get their act together. Some better than others. I still do practice as a licensed therapist, but find that this aspect of preparing people for the journey into life as very limiting. Trading presents a forum that exposes all the laundry -- both good and bad -- it is this that I enjoy. There are strengths and weaknesses within each of us. Learning to heal the wounds that bind us to mediocrity and to grow the strengths within each of us is what actually inspires me. I find trading to be to be a wonderful medium to work in. It is nearly black and white in terms of beliefs creating the reality we live in.

 

Rande Howell

[gosu 10]

* * *

Trading presents a forum that exposes all the laundry -- both good and bad -- it is this that I enjoy.

 

You chose an occupation that deals with people's exposed laundry so I am not surprised you enjoy it. I will not disagree that trading CAN cause people to act out their dramas. However, I don't think it is necessary or even helpful to make trading out to be more than what it is. After you get to a point where your trading accounts represent a small portion of your liquidity and what you extract in a year has no bearing on any decision, it is easier to see that trading is just not that important. Trading is just a neat way to extract resources and keep all the faculties sharp.

 

* * *

Learning to heal the wounds that bind us to mediocrity and to grow the strengths within each of us is what actually inspires me.

 

That's great you are inspired. But pardon my ignorance, because the way it looks to me is that the cause of mediocrity is not unhealed wounds but that people go into trading who are just not suited for it.

 

I find trading to be to be a wonderful medium to work in.

 

Let's be specific: You find it wonderful to work with struggling traders. That is not trading.

 

It is nearly black and white in terms of beliefs creating the reality we live in.

What does this mean?

[Rande Howell 10]

You chose an occupation that deals with people's exposed laundry so I am not surprised you enjoy it. I will not disagree that trading CAN cause people to act out their dramas. However, I don't think it is necessary or even helpful to make trading out to be more than what it is. After you get to a point where your trading accounts represent a small portion of your liquidity and what you extract in a year has no bearing on any decision, it is easier to see that trading is just not that important. Trading is just a neat way to extract resources and keep all the faculties sharp.

 

 

 

That's great you are inspired. But pardon my ignorance, because the way it looks to me is that the cause of mediocrity is not unhealed wounds but that people go into trading who are just not suited for it.

 

Let's be specific: You find it wonderful to work with struggling traders. That is not trading.

 

 

What does this mean?

 

Who says I choose to work traders? It arrived in my lap. They initially were just another population of people with problems. Then more and more traders keep showing up. It finally dawned on me that as a population, traders were highly motivated and had a sense of urgency that really made a difference in the change process I use. I would say I made a choice after the fact.

 

Trading is a mansion with many rooms occupied by very different kinds of people at very different levels of competance. Your understanding of trading will be very different than others. From what you say, trading for you is taking place on a level that many traders have not evolved to yet. It doesn't mean that others are not suited for trading; it simply means they have a different learning curve. What most traders find out is that it is their psychology that stands in the way of their success. And that trading exposes their cleverly hidden psychological demons. It is that axion in trading that states: 80% of trading is mental.

 

Taking a journey approach to life, trading becomes the context that a trader evolves in to create the possibility he strives for. A lack of success does not mean he or she is not suited for trading -- it simply demonstrates the elements of his or her psychology that need to be re-examined and re-built for the rigors of successful trading.

 

Many people train to become proficient in a sport with no desire to play at the top levels. Good enough is simply good enough. It is their passion that keep them in the game. It is the striving that matters most in building the mental skillsets that is needed to evolve. Most traders simply desire to make a comfortable living at trading. Few want to be the best in the world. They simply want to be good enough. Having worked with wealthy people, one thing I know for sure is that they do not know joy any more than regular folks. It just appears that way to regular folk. Their problems are just more exaggerated because money hids them from having to deal with their human condition.

 

In trading, as in life, your beliefs about the self and about your capacity to negotiate life produce the life you live in. In trading this is called: You trade your beliefs. It is these beliefs that must be changed for a more effective trader to show up. They are not born that way. But they must equip themselves. I believe it is this aspect that you miss.

 

With highly financially successful traders, trading can still teach -- rather than just being a means of extracting money. The conversation of money still can evolve. Instead of staying stuck in their tiny ego, the question becomes, "Now that I have all this money, what meaning does it have for me that I can help make a difference in the world?" A powerful new way of understanding the self and our connection to the struggle of others becomes possible here. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet (as well as Ted Turner) have passed the threshold of their old money conversation and have evolved it so that a new world begins to show up. I have a deep admiration for Jim Goodnight of the company SASS that he founded. Though he is a billionaire, he still asks the question: How do I serve? What he knows is that when he is gone from this world, he will disappear into time. His money will simply be a decaying memory. What he also knows is that he has strived to make a positive difference in the world based on the fortune he was blessed with.

 

So success simply opens the door to more evolved conversations about the purpose and meaning of money in the journey of life. Each trader is exactly where they need to be to learn the lessons they need to be learning NOW. Later, as current lessons become standard practice, new lessons becomes possible.

 

Rande Howell

[gosu 10]

Who says I choose to work traders? It arrived in my lap. They initially were just another population of people with problems. Then more and more traders keep showing up. It finally dawned on me that as a population, traders were highly motivated and had a sense of urgency that really made a difference in the change process I use. I would say I made a choice after the fact.

 

I was referring to your choice of occupation as a therapist in general. But fair enough, you refer to your current practice with traders. I've parsed your post below and replied accordingly.

 

Trading is a mansion with many rooms occupied by very different kinds of people at very different levels of competance. Your understanding of trading will be very different than others. From what you say, trading for you is taking place on a level that many traders have not evolved to yet.

 

I think I'm alright but I do not consider myself an expert trader. Among the traders I know who trade index futures intraday, there is one person I consider an expert.

 

It doesn't mean that others are not suited for trading; it simply means they have a different learning curve. What most traders find out is that it is their psychology that stands in the way of their success. And that trading exposes their cleverly hidden psychological demons. It is that axion in trading that states: 80% of trading is mental.

 

My comment was I don't think everyone who attempts trading is suitable for it. I didn't state or imply that a person has to reach a certain level by a certain time to be suitable for it. In my case, I did not learn very fast and repeated the same mistakes many times before I eventually caught on and changed my behavior. I attribute my slow learning to a natural stubbornness and years of school and work that rewarded being right or winning and punished being wrong or losing, the kind of thinking that is not helpful for trading. If you want to call it "psychology" that is fine with me. However, I did not think hidden demons were the cause of my being a lousy trader so I never bothered to look for them or seek help from someone who told me they were there and that I had to undergo an exorcism in order to trade better. I knew that I simply sucked, wanted to get better and was fortunate to see ways to improve doing things. The hard part was training myself to actually do them.

 

Taking a journey approach to life, trading becomes the context that a trader evolves in to create the possibility he strives for. A lack of success does not mean he or she is not suited for trading -- it simply demonstrates the elements of his or her psychology that need to be re-examined and re-built for the rigors of successful trading.

 

For me, my life is the context and I view trading within that context. Trading gets me to where I want to go in an enjoyable way. I share your premise that a lack of success does not necessarily mean a person is not suited for trading. However, your conclusion that "psychology" is what stands in the way of success is merely your opinion as a professional therapist. It may be just a part of the problem. You do not trade so it is beyond you to understand from your position what it takes to extract from the markets.

 

Many people train to become proficient in a sport with no desire to play at the top levels. Good enough is simply good enough. It is their passion that keep them in the game. It is the striving that matters most in building the mental skillsets that is needed to evolve. Most traders simply desire to make a comfortable living at trading. Few want to be the best in the world. They simply want to be good enough.

 

I do not object to any of these statements. The question is, can everyone or most people be "good enough"? You say the answer is "yes" and it's their psychology that's preventing them. That is not my experience which includes working in an office with dozens of traders.

 

Having worked with wealthy people, one thing I know for sure is that they do not know joy any more than regular folks. It just appears that way to regular folk. Their problems are just more exaggerated because money hids them from having to deal with their human condition.

 

This is a very naive viewpoint. Money is an enabler. Nothing more.

 

In trading, as in life, your beliefs about the self and about your capacity to negotiate life produce the life you live in. In trading this is called: You trade your beliefs. It is these beliefs that must be changed for a more effective trader to show up. They are not born that way. But they must equip themselves. I believe it is this aspect that you miss.

 

While it may be true that your beliefs about the self are important in life, in trading your beliefs about the market are no less important and probably much more important. This is the aspect that you disregard.

 

People are not born with an understanding of how markets operate. In the process of learning by following conventional paths, they pick up a lot of myths about trading that they mistake as truths. Or even worse, like you, they believe there are no market truths and that one belief about how markets work is as good as another and move on to beliefs about their self and their relationship to money.

 

I have yet to see a struggling trader who exhibits a deep understanding of how the market he trades works. Invariably the method he has devised or bought as a package to put his superficial understanding into practice is so lacking in completeness that it is in essence just a coin flip, stop loss, profit target approach with some position-sizing calculation thrown in.

 

Ask a struggling trader how he determines a retrace from a reversal and you get a puzzled look. These are people who have never used a reversal order because they do not know that's how markets operate. They are too busy getting stopped out and thinking "Whew! I'm glad I had my stop-loss in place on that one!" I know none of this registers on your radar. Not to worry, it's probably the same for the people who take your course.

 

With highly financially successful traders, trading can still teach -- rather than just being a means of extracting money. The conversation of money still can evolve. Instead of staying stuck in their tiny ego, the question becomes, "Now that I have all this money, what meaning does it have for me that I can help make a difference in the world?" A powerful new way of understanding the self and our connection to the struggle of others becomes possible here. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet (as well as Ted Turner) have passed the threshold of their old money conversation and have evolved it so that a new world begins to show up. I have a deep admiration for Jim Goodnight of the company SASS that he founded. Though he is a billionaire, he still asks the question: How do I serve? What he knows is that when he is gone from this world, he will disappear into time. His money will simply be a decaying memory. What he also knows is that he has strived to make a positive difference in the world based on the fortune he was blessed with.

 

Conversations about money? Other than with close family, I avoid that as much as possible because there is simply no benefit in it for me.

 

I am unsure if you think a person who knows how to trade index futures intraday can get to a level of a Bill Gates or a Warren Buffett. It is funny to me that people who don't know how to extract get out their calculators and start compounding some small number of points into the future and come away with the conclusion that either extracting can't be done or the person doing it will eventually own the world if he continues. Even disregarding liquidity issues, what's the point of explaining that sweeping my accounts every month and not compounding are the keys to my longevity in the markets? They cannot possibly understand anyway.

 

I like being supportive of others. Sometimes money is required to do that and sometimes money is not helpful. In any case, most of what I extract on a monthly basis goes to others which is what gets me up in the morning and keeps me going.

 

So success simply opens the door to more evolved conversations about the purpose and meaning of money in the journey of life. Each trader is exactly where they need to be to learn the lessons they need to be learning NOW. Later, as current lessons become standard practice, new lessons becomes possible.

 

I share that sentiment.

[SIUYA 11]

interesting discussion between gosu and Rade

If I could weigh in with a few opinions as food for thought.

Rande - I think one of the problems a lot of traders have from a psychological aspect has absolutely nothing to do with "demons", it has more to do with - as Gosu touched on - previous methods of learning and approaching problems. The reward for being right v wrong, as opposed to just accepting trading is more than this. (I have seem some socially mentally flawed people - with plenty of demons - who are pretty good traders , possibly because they are physcos)

 

I would agree with the view that while everyone can be taught, some people are sadly just not equiped and either due to a lack of adequate mental facilities, desires, or a simple mis wiring then their struggle will only get them to just good enough, maybe they are too much the bleeding heart.....and here I think the point is - just good enough is not enough.

While being the best may not be everyones grand plan, just being good enough will not work either. You need to take trading (and in the wedinars case, the mental aspects of it) seriously enough to be way better than the average - especially if the 90-95% failure rate is to be believed.

All parties understand you need to be committed to this if you wish to make it a profession, and the hardest thing to understand is that what works and is successful in the "real world" is not what is required in the trading world.....and so comparing the ideas of giving back (from the point of a billionaire ) and a lot of other socially nice/feel good personal growth issues often misses the point - there is nothing about feeling good and doing the socially responsible thing when trading - what you do after you make it are different things.....and while we can understand it is a lot about the money narrative, using billionaries as an example after they have made it is IMHO not going to help a struggling trader.

[MightyMouse 12]

interesting discussion between gosu and Rade

If I could weigh in with a few opinions as food for thought.

Rande - I think one of the problems a lot of traders have from a psychological aspect has absolutely nothing to do with "demons", it has more to do with - as Gosu touched on - previous methods of learning and approaching problems. The reward for being right v wrong, as opposed to just accepting trading is more than this. (I have seem some socially mentally flawed people - with plenty of demons - who are pretty good traders , possibly because they are physcos)

 

I would agree with the view that while everyone can be taught, some people are sadly just not equiped and either due to a lack of adequate mental facilities, desires, or a simple mis wiring then their struggle will only get them to just good enough, maybe they are too much the bleeding heart.....and here I think the point is - just good enough is not enough.

While being the best may not be everyones grand plan, just being good enough will not work either. You need to take trading (and in the wedinars case, the mental aspects of it) seriously enough to be way better than the average - especially if the 90-95% failure rate is to be believed.

All parties understand you need to be committed to this if you wish to make it a profession, and the hardest thing to understand is that what works and is successful in the "real world" is not what is required in the trading world.....and so comparing the ideas of giving back (from the point of a billionaire ) and a lot of other socially nice/feel good personal growth issues often misses the point - there is nothing about feeling good and doing the socially responsible thing when trading - what you do after you make it are different things.....and while we can understand it is a lot about the money narrative, using billionaries as an example after they have made it is IMHO not going to help a struggling trader.

 

I would like to add that a lot of people who want to trade are just not hungry enough to do what they have to do to survive. When you are hungry you don't give a shit about your feelings, fears or the impact that your father had on you when he wouldn't play with you. Billionaires are in a constant state of starvation. They are broken people as in abnormally greedy. There is little difference between a billionaire and an abnormally obese individual. The main difference is in our perception of them. One we tend to admire, the other we tend to pity.