Realistic Goals....

[zdo 20]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems OP is conspiciously absent from 'normal' participation in the conversation...

Has he taken a powder and are we just steroking ourselves now?

[Dutchie 10]

  joshdance said:

This all varies depending on the trader, and his style of trading. Many traders ONLY trade the first couple of hours, for example. For day trading--and by that I mean some trades will last 2 minutes, others 30 minutes, few will last more than an hour or so--most markets are "willing to give" almost every day, say, 90-95% of days there are great opportunities. It doesn't mean all of those days will be profitable, and I think a measure should be taken on a weekly basis versus a daily basis, but what I'm saying is that many traders actually do make money every day -- I see them on my broker's board, and I have made money on 11 out of 14 trading days this month, and I'm not even trading that well this month. I'd imagine that traders much better than I am are making money literally 95% of trading days.

 

Setting guidelines like 2 or 3 trades are enough, is based on your experience, and is not "right" or "wrong," just what you believe. Traders who are holding for a larger move may only take 2 trades, but others may take quite a few more, and other traders may only take 1 per week. Personally I average about 8-12 trades per day. If I take more, it's usually not a good sign, and if I take less, it usually means that I did not take full advantage of my opportunities as I saw them.

 

True Josh, but from what I understand the guy is only just beginning and those are just a set of guidelines to prevent him from overtrading. I myself make 2 to 5 % daily on my account on average. Until today I mainly focussed on ForEx but I am widening my horizon to futures as we speak.

 

Cheers

[fxjaykay 10]

  Tams said:

"go live and small" will only prolong the inevitable if you don't know what you are doing.

 

"start small" without understanding discipline will turn small into large (both profit and loss).

 

1. The only way of actually knowing what you do (or realise that you don't) is by going live at some point.

 

2. When you do go live with your trading plan, especially when you are not a seasoned trader, you should keep it as small as realistically possible.

 

3. Also, before you go live, you should practice, as I mentioned.

 

So your point was? Please clearify so that we can benefit.

[joshdance 10]

  Dutchie said:

I myself make 2 to 5 % daily on my account on average. Until today I mainly focussed on ForEx but I am widening my horizon to futures as we speak.

 

If you have a 5K account, and average only 2% per day, you should have a million dollars in just over a year. You sure those stats are right? I also have 2% days, heck I have +10% days, but that's not my average. There's also the 0.1% days, and the -2% days, etc.

 

Maybe you're trading a micro forex account and getting those stats. If so, congrats. It somehow becomes different when the tick value is $10, as opposed to a mini $1 or a micro $0.10 , psychologically speaking I mean. I don't trade big size but losing $150 on a trade just trading one contract is a bit harder to swallow than losing $15 or $1.50. I can only imagine big swingers who are trading 20 lots of crude or eminis, watching their account +/- $200+ per tick. But I suppose to get to that point they have mastered the psychology of risk. Anyway I digress.

[Dutchie 10]

  joshdance said:

If you have a 5K account, and average only 2% per day, you should have a million dollars in just over a year. You sure those stats are right? I also have 2% days, heck I have +10% days, but that's not my average. There's also the 0.1% days, and the -2% days, etc.

 

Maybe you're trading a micro forex account and getting those stats. If so, congrats. It somehow becomes different when the tick value is $10, as opposed to a mini $1 or a micro $0.10 , psychologically speaking I mean. I don't trade big size but losing $150 on a trade just trading one contract is a bit harder to swallow than losing $15 or $1.50. I can only imagine big swingers who are trading 20 lots of crude or eminis, watching their account +/- $200+ per tick. But I suppose to get to that point they have mastered the psychology of risk. Anyway I digress.

 

Thanks for the congrats. I did start with a $ 100.- mini account taking trades of only 0.02 contracts! I ALWAYS limit my losses to 2% of the account. I trade only three days a week (Never on fridays, I tend to find them boring). Today I trade whole contracts to give you an indication. This is all I have to say about it since it does NOT contribute to the initial question.

 

Cheers

[jackb 10]

  Dutchie said:

True Josh, but from what I understand the guy is only just beginning and those are just a set of guidelines to prevent him from overtrading. I myself make 2 to 5 % daily on my account on average. Until today I mainly focussed on ForEx but I am widening my horizon to futures as we speak.

 

Cheers

 

I'll call shenanigans on the 2-5% daily (as in each and every day). And if it doesn't add to the conversation (which you're right, it doesn't), what possessed you to make the statement in the first place?

[MightyMouse 12]

  jackb said:

I'll call shenanigans on the 2-5% daily (as in each and every day). And if it doesn't add to the conversation (which you're right, it doesn't), what possessed you to make the statement in the first place?

 

Some things are obvious, though, I frequently ask the questions with obvious answers when I am bored too.

[jackb 10]

  MightyMouse said:

Some things are obvious, though, I frequently ask the questions with obvious answers when I am bored too.

 

Yep, I understand what you're getting at. My question was/is a bit rhetorical as well. Just trying to make the point that alluding to one's own trading prowess in a post is ridiculous. Since no one is going to believe (and nor should they) any claim of performance, alluding to it in a post is pointless. But, some people apparently can't help themselves and feel it somehow will lend that much needed "credibility" to their comments. Actually, it does the exact opposite.

 

The bottom line is that it's 1) not worth making such reference to performance, 2) it adds nothing to the conversation and 3) it wreaks of desperation (imo).

[chulaihuey 10]

...

2. what is your MFE to MAE ratio on each trade?

....

Tams,

Where do you get your MFE/MAE data? Does the platform you use provide it, or do you

have a spreadsheet app?

If a spreadsheet can I get the template?

Thanks.

[Tams 20]

  chulaihuey said:

...

2. what is your MFE to MAE ratio on each trade?

....

Tams,

Where do you get your MFE/MAE data? Does the platform you use provide it, or do you

have a spreadsheet app?

If a spreadsheet can I get the template?

Thanks.

 

most trading software provides it.

 

or you can calculate it manually.

 

MFE = paper profit

MAE = paper loss

 

if your MFE/MAE ratio is ONE, then you are risking $1 to make $1

you are a breakeven trader at best.

 

if your MFE/MAE is larger than ONE, then you are in good hands... you risk less than $1 to make a dollar. You will go far.

 

 

if your MFE/MAE is smaller than ONE, then you will be in trouble sooner or later... you are risking more than $1 to make a dollar. The bad luck will eventually catch up to you.

[chulaihuey 10]

Tams, thanks.

I had a different understanding of MFA/MFE. I thought it was what a trader could do in a best case scenario. It is not necessarily what I am making now, on paper, or real. Not sure I can explain it that well, but here is an example. Let me know if I understand this correctly.

If I go long some asset at let's say a price of 100 and it goes up to 110, but I miss that best price and sell out at 105 then my win for the trade was 5 (105 -100), but the MFE (Max Favorable Excursion) for the trade was 10 (110 - 100). So what this analysis lets me do is see how much better I could be doing. Do I have this right?

Also, the software I use does not have an MFE/MAE output, so I am trying to create a spreadsheet with this calculation in it.

It would help if I could see someones data organization (column headings only) for the output so that when I create the spreadsheet I could have all the data needed. If that is something you could screen cap and include, I would appreciate it. If not maybe just tell me what platforms you know of that have this output and I will research them on my own,

Thanks.

[Tams 20]

  chulaihuey said:

Tams, thanks.

I had a different understanding of MFA/MFE. I thought it was what a trader could do in a best case scenario. It is not necessarily what I am making now, on paper, or real. Not sure I can explain it that well, but here is an example. Let me know if I understand this correctly.

If I go long some asset at let's say a price of 100 and it goes up to 110, but I miss that best price and sell out at 105 then my win for the trade was 5 (105 -100), but the MFE (Max Favorable Excursion) for the trade was 10 (110 - 100). So what this analysis lets me do is see how much better I could be doing. Do I have this right?

Also, the software I use does not have an MFE/MAE output, so I am trying to create a spreadsheet with this calculation in it.

It would help if I could see someones data organization (column headings only) for the output so that when I create the spreadsheet I could have all the data needed. If that is something you could screen cap and include, I would appreciate it. If not maybe just tell me what platforms you know of that have this output and I will research them on my own,

Thanks.

 

yes, your understanding is correct. My description was too brief.

 

I should have said -- MFE = best possible paper profit while in a trade.

 

I use Brackettrader, which shows MFE and MAE numbers.

[tomerok 10]

I want to thank you guys for taking the time and answering my question.

i apologize for taking the time for participating in the thread i started, been away + it took some time for all the ideas / questions to settle in.

you sure have answered my question and raised a lot more http://cdn.traderslaboratory.com/forums/images/FH_Sahm/smilies/custom2/smile.gif

I could not have asked for better guidance then this thread gave me and i felt a need to post a thank you.

[rahman9951 10]

It is suggested by one experience trader and trainer......that if you want to become more successful, then do not focus on a goal that will consume you and drain you like a vampire. The majority of people have very broad desires, such as I want to make more money. Enjoy the journey and focus on the path itself of setting goals that will lead you to achieve that desire. Lose your bird’s eye focus on the end result and concentrate on creating the stepping stones you will need to have the greatest probability of achieving your trading goal.

[Williamfx65 10]

well, i would say realistic goals are for me - small account with returns of 25-35% monthly with very small risk invloved. no more than following of 5 providers and corresponding trades. realistic goals are also to havea secured platform and brokers, registered and all (like mine for example zulutrade and aaafx, for example) that will guarantee that if smth goes wrong everything will be secured.

[joshdance 10]

  Williamfx65 said:

well, i would say realistic goals are for me - small account with returns of 25-35% monthly with very small risk invloved. no more than following of 5 providers and corresponding trades. realistic goals are also to havea secured platform and brokers, registered and all (like mine for example zulutrade and aaafx, for example) that will guarantee that if smth goes wrong everything will be secured.

 

So your realistic goal is a small account, very small risk, but 1.25-1.75% return average per trading day... Ok.

[M.A 10]

  Williamfx65 said:

well, i would say realistic goals are for me - small account with returns of 25-35% monthly with very small risk invloved. no more than following of 5 providers and corresponding trades. realistic goals are also to havea secured platform and brokers, registered and all (like mine for example zulutrade and aaafx, for example) that will guarantee that if smth goes wrong everything will be secured.

 

With small account, it is possible to achieve 25-35% return per month, but for limited time. I am saying "possible" coz usually traders use very high leverage on small accounts in order to gain big amounts which causes high return rate (if they r profiting). But in the end as the account gets bigger (lot size remains same), return rate will fall. If u make ur lot size bigger (proportionate to ur account), there is chance that u will loose everything within few days bcoz u r exposing urself to high risk.

Bottom line is 25% return per month, on consistent basis, is unrealistic goal.

[wsam29 10]

  tomerok said:

Hi, that's my first post over here. so first things first... hello everybody, i appreciate any comment/response.

 

I'm currently setting up my goals for my day trading and would appreciate your feedback.

I paper traded daily on futures for the last six month, i used the time for educate myself..... mainly blogs, forums and books.

I opened up a live account with 10K and would really like to know if I'm shooting to high on my goals.

my first goal is 300$ a day meaning 6000$ a month until July 2012.

I plan on making trading my main and single profession so i can quit my day job.

I appreciate any comment , tip or other realistic goals that will light my journey.

 

Thank you.

 

Tomer.

 

The first goal for any trader is simply learn the skill of following a plan consistently. It does not matter if the plan makes money or loses money, the goal is to follow a plan.

 

Once you have proven to yourself and built the trust within to follow the plan, finding a set of rules that will give you an edge in the next step. Then you will find out the rest along your journey and meet them head on as they come along.

 

It does not matter what your daily profit goal is if you cannot even follow a plan.

[Williamfx65 10]

  M.A said:

With small account, it is possible to achieve 25-35% return per month, but for limited time. I am saying "possible" coz usually traders use very high leverage on small accounts in order to gain big amounts which causes high return rate (if they r profiting). But in the end as the account gets bigger (lot size remains same), return rate will fall. If u make ur lot size bigger (proportionate to ur account), there is chance that u will loose everything within few days bcoz u r exposing urself to high risk.

Bottom line is 25% return per month, on consistent basis, is unrealistic goal.

 

 

deppends on the size of the account. mine is small but not that small (i put 5000 euros). anyhow for me works pretty find and trust me this is an undervalued expectations, as there are people that make much more money, though I tend to be of more risk aversive nature

happy pipping, mate!

[EigerGroup 10]

The first goal of any new day trader or short term trader should simply to be profitable every month. Most don't come close to this. Most professionals don't either. But, most professional traders have a longer term time horizon as well when it comes to profitability.

[gavind 11]

At least keep it small/slow and steady. This is not a get rich quickly program but a marathon.

[Williamfx65 10]

garvin, totally agree with you!

Who are you following on zulutrade? Anybody worth mentioning to share with a fellow trader here ?

[fxeconomist 11]

Reasonable, not ambitious goal for average trader is 10% month profit. It takes into account such important feature as consistency of earnings.

[MightyMouse 12]

  fxeconomist said:

Reasonable, not ambitious goal for average trader is 10% month profit. It takes into account such important feature as consistency of earnings.

 

The above average trader will make 8+ percent a year and have an occasional losing year. How much he will make is a function of interest rates, volatility, talent, and being in the right place at the right time. The average trader will lose year in and year out.