Vendors Vendors Vendors

[Tams 20]

If it were mandatory for them to have a vendor badge, wouldn't it be free advertising for them? You'll always get people who are naive enough just to sign up anyway. There has to be a balance somewhere in this. Maybe all vendors once identified should have all their posts and pm's monitored. It's certainly not straight forward. Even a separate vendor forum is kind of like free advertising. The reason these guys tend not to identify themselves is because in doing so they know they are soliciting which we don't want! I think the important thing is people keep them in check. Maybe what we need is a new vendor code of conduct to be written. If they are out of line, they can be referred to it.

 

These are the current forum guidelines for anyone who hasn't seen them:-

 

Forum Guidelines

 

Whether it should be free or not is none of my business. It is the business decision of the TL owner. And his decision is based on his business model. Our concern is vendor transparency, not whether he is a paid up advertiser.

[wrbtrader 10]

I find it a strange business model to allow non paying vendors to secretly / privately promote themselves freely here at TL while others who publicly advertise have to pay!! This must be disheartening to paying vendors!!

 

Hi,

 

First, thank you for the prior response about the racism issue...greatly appreciated via knowing a little about your own experience. In addition, I've decided to continue with this thread to add some valuable insights.

 

Therefore, to be helpful to MadMarketScientist, I highly recommend you have two distinctive lists. One list should contain user names of non paying vendors that openly/secretly/privately promote themselves here at TL. The other list should contain names of non paying vendors that do not promote nor advertise here at TL. To make it on the list of non paying vendors that openly/secretly/privately promote here at TL...proof should be provided directly to MadMarketScientist via giving him a link to the content. Also, I'm under the impression that MadMarketScientist can check private messages when a complaint is received.

 

Also, those that continue discussing their services or mentioning they have clients or enjoy helping others...this will help MadMarketScientist to know whom to notify if they want to continue talking in such a way...they must become a paying sponsor. Those that continue talking in such a way without becoming a sponsor...they get banned (no exceptions).

 

As for the other list of vendors that don't advertise or promote themselves here at TL...MadMarketScientist can then have private discussions with those particular TL members to find out why they're not interested in TL in becoming a sponsor or an active TL member. For example, I know for fact that some TL members that are vendors and not on your list...they do not advertise nor promote here at TL for any of the following reasons:

 

* The forum activity not high enough regardless to the reasons why its not high enough for them to make it worthwhile to become sponsors.

 

* The quality of discussion not suitable to them. (e.g. someone selling custom indicators for Ninjatrader prefers being a sponsor at the Ninjatrader forum instead of here at TL. Thus, more bang for the buck when advertising at Ninjatrader forum instead of here at TL).

 

* Wrong type of potential clientele (e.g. someone selling trader psychology services is not interested in a forum where most believe trader psychology is mumbo jumbo).

 

* Too much vendor bashing of others that turned into personal attacks instead of discussing the merits of the services.

 

* Currently are sponsors elsewhere (forum, website, blogs, adsense or whatever) and like the way things are. Thus, there's no need for them to sponsor here at TL or become an active member.

 

* Clientele exclusively via word of mouth and I'm not talking about shills. I'm talking about in person conversations and recommendations and prefers such.

 

* Clientele exclusively via search engines and prefers such.

 

* Only views the TL community for entertainment purposes.

 

Simply, if I was the forum owner (MadMarketScientist), it's easy to deal with those that openly/secretly/privately advertise or promote here at TL especially those that use baiting tactics via words like "I teach", "my clients" and so on. Yet, I'll be more interested in knowing why non paying vendors do not want to become sponsors here at TL, not interested in mentioning their services here at TL or not interested in being active members. Answers that could provide clues for how MadMarketScientist advertises/promotes the TL community from this day forward to attract paying sponsors (vendors) and to attract more quality members.

 

Last of all, it's very easy for non paying vendors to post useful, insightful messages here at TL community via trading topics that has nothing to do with their services.

Edited August 29, 2011 by wrbtrader

[TheNegotiator 13]

Whether it should be free or not is none of my business. It is the business decision of the TL owner. And his decision is based on his business model. Our concern is vendor transparency, not whether he is a paid up advertiser.

 

I understand that members here at TL are primarily concerned with vendor transparency. However, the site is run based on sponsors/advertisers. This is precisely why some vendors don't want to directly identify themselves as such, because maybe they feel that they would be asked to become an official sponsor. To find a solution you must first identify the cause.

[clmacdougall 11]

I have an interesting dilemma with where I stand in this discussion.

In my previous post I was upfront that I both trade and teach.

I didn't make public my trading site so as not to spam or promote unduly.

I have only posted a few times with no hidden agenda and would like to think there are others that are on this forum that do similar.

I am a genuine trader and I trade for a living. I actually ran a free monthly meeting at my house for a few years to help traders on the Sunshine Coast, Australia.

So I teach because I want to and enjoy helping other traders - but that doesn't mean I should do it for nothing (although I have in the past).

 

The bigger problem comes from vendors who have big budgets and sales people with no trading experience flogging trading programs to the unsuspecting.

 

All the traders here that have spent years in producing a skill set to make them successful find these parasites the most disgusting.

Is there a way to filter the few professionals from the pretenders?

Maybe a start is to help change newer traders perspective of what is real and what is fairytale.

 

Hi Plugger,

 

No one is accusing any vendor, including yourself, of doing anything wrong. The vendor list is not there to promote guilt or shame, only awareness.

 

The only reason for the list is to make public the possible/probable "intent" of the vendor member as compared to that of the regular member of the community, when posting.

 

Please don't see it in any other light. Your posts and opinions are much looked forward to.

[clmacdougall 11]

There is nothing exclusive in this search to identify vendors. All members are welcome to help. Please let us know if you've found a TL member attempting to sell you or others anything on or off this site.

 

 

Our vendor list with names product and price:

 

electroniclocal / 3 day seminar / $5000

steve46 / daily coaching / $200 per month

Urma Blume / tradestation inducator package addon / $1400 per year

Logic / manual / $750

nhallett / 5 hour course / $297

Rande Howell / multi media courses + 10 personal sessions / $ 2997

Dbphoenix / ebook / $30

TheRumpledOne / indicators / $50

swisstrader / multicharts package/ free - $9990

doubletop11 / indicator package / $1000 per year

Tim Racette / ebook / $49.95

alleyb / trading site mentorship / $800 per year

Eiger / mentorship courses / $69 - $1199

NihabaAshi & wrbtrader / training / $193 - $473

Predictor / manual and mentorship / unknown, through email add only

Fulcrum Trader /training & chatroom /$97 per month chat & $397 - $697 training

Dionysus Toast / indicator package / $249

Plugger / trading program / $1997

windsurfer / trading program / $50 per month

xkr1962 / training & mentorship / $8000 - $16,000

tradingadvantagetm / training / unknown, through email add only

Lil Miss Markets / sector specific trade alerts / unknown, through email only

 

I will post the others after discovering what they are trying to sell and for how much. Thanks

Edited August 29, 2011 by clmacdougall

[clmacdougall 11]

Thanks for the updates Tams!

[Tams 20]

Thanks for the updates Tams!

 

The more I look, the more vendors I find.

Maybe it would be easier if you compile a list of non-vendors.

 

;-)>

[Tams 20]

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/futures-trading-laboratory/10668-trading-tip-21-understanding-candlestick-patterns.html

 

see link in signature

 

oops... the signature is deleted.

 

it used to say:

 

Larry Levin

Founder & President- Trading Advantage

--- URL ---

 

 

you can still see the URL in his contact info.

 

I don't think Larry Levin personally made those posts here in TL.

I think they are just a marketing effort to raise the visibility of his website/company.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Tams

[MadMarketScientist 11]

oops... the signature is deleted.

 

it used to say:

 

Larry Levin

Founder & President- Trading Advantage

--- URL ---

 

you can still see the URL in his contact info.

 

The moderators will remove URL's from posts when they are reported - we prefer if you just report the post as we get emails and will take care of it immediately.

 

thx

MMS

[clmacdougall 11]

The more I look, the more vendors I find.

Maybe it would be easier if you compile a list of non-vendors.

 

;-)>

 

:o:o:o Funny, I was beginning to think the same thing!!

[MightyMouse 12]

MMS,

 

Why do you allow the frauds to post frauds and you delete a post that attempts to counter the fraud? By deleting the post that counters the fraud, you are doing the newer traders a tremendous disservice.

 

Why not delete the fraudulent posts?

 

Sorry, but that is down right irresponsible.

[clmacdougall 11]

I have found this thread very interesting and also a bit disturbing.

 

Especially when I see a name on the vendors list who I thought was a good , helpful person.

 

Some of these vendors do offer useful info and their posts create talking points for the Traders Laboratory Forum. But I am influenced by the posts and if a person says that the position of Mars will help my trading, I just might go and buy a telescope and waste 3 months .Further,the vendor has an ulterior motive to sell his product, so the info supplied is not necessarily honest.

 

I believe that a vendor should identify himself , because he will loose creditability once identified. I also think the vendor should pay a fee to post. Nothing big , but say $200 a month. Afterall , he will get it back very quickly by using his trading skills.And I think he will gain respect from the members by supporting the Forum.

bobc

 

Ps... looking to buy a cheap telescope.

 

Hi Bob,

 

I agree that some of the best posts have been from vendors, but I wonder if it was because the post was actually useful or because the sales pitch/delivery was so good.

 

Either way a vendor does not a bad person make! Just because someone's name is on our vendor list please don't mistake it as a judgement of their character, we'll leave that call in your individual hands as you're best suited to make that decision.

 

A vendor, like any other business, should be made to earn his sale by attracting and standing tall through true scrutiny. This is how a TL member should be respected, they should be made aware of a vendor member as soon as possible so that the process of scrutiny can begin right away.

 

In the end it's best for both parties and could end up being a boondoggle for a good and true vendor who's got a good product to sell.

Edited August 30, 2011 by clmacdougall

[MadMarketScientist 11]

MMS,

 

Why do you allow the frauds to post frauds and you delete a post that attempts to counter the fraud? By deleting the post that counters the fraud, you are doing the newer traders a tremendous disservice.

 

Why not delete the fraudulent posts?

 

Sorry, but that is down right irresponsible.

 

Hi,

 

Moderators are removing posts that turn good threads into heated arguments and name calling. But we are not removing posts where one person respectfully disagrees with another person's statements. Your post refuting the claims was not removed. As long as the conversation stays respectful it will be allowed to stay. But once it turns into a shouting match, we will remove all posts that are disrespectful.

 

But we cannot possibly censor all posts, nor should we make the judgement, which are fraudulent or not. You disagreed with the claims, you've made your point to the readers, and everyone reading the thread will see that. There is no need to let the argument continue to hijack the thread.

 

But we will also not censor what people say - if they think they have the 'holy grail' and can 'make money in their sleep', they've shown to the other readers more than enough about the legitimacy of their product\service. If some people still want to believe and pursue these products then it is their right to do so.

 

It is a fine line we are dealing with here, and I know it will be impossible to make everyone happy. But unlike the current US government (had to make a dig here!) we believe in less intervention and to let the free market run, within certain rules of course.

 

Questions for the community:

1. Do you think members should be making judgement's of products\services for other people?

2. Do you need a better way (aside from hijacking an existing thread) to voice your opinion on these products\services? Maybe new Reviews forums?

 

thanks,

MMS

[bobcollett 10]

It becomes second nature after being around these forums so long to just not trust anybody.

I always assume everybody wants something and there is nobody here who genuinely wants to help others. I know that is not true, but that is the way I have come to approach things. (actually that can be said about almost all areas of life, not just trading).

I wonder often why I come to these places at all. Mostly for entertainment, I guess.

But there are occasional "lights come on" moments spurred by certain posters. We all know who they are. There aren't many, but they are here.

 

Since this vender list has been getting compiled, it becomes a little unsettling to notice how much of the conversations here are started by or perpetuated by these venders. I have not been around all that long, so I don't claim to know the early days of TL, but I am guessing most of these forums are started by well meaning people for all the right reasons, but they and up being a "for profit" business. The forum is free so the only way to generate revenue is by selling add space and the only way to do that is to have a large and active forum and the only way to do that is to let everyone in and let conversations run...

 

The profit wasn't such a big deal, I don't think, to the founder of this site, but if I were a buyer of a site like this for, say, 100k, I would be certainly looking for ways to make it pay, which means, the quality is almost certainly going to go down. I may be way off the mark there, but I have been in business myself and have a pretty good idea how things work...

 

...so, maybe, ultimately, we all come here looking for a friend... Many times we find it is a friend for pay, (prostitute), and that hurts, but it is the reality of the game. I don't know what the answer is, if venders should be labeled somehow or not, but it really is part of the learning process to have to learn how to fend for oneself in this environment. Or any environment...

 

Dear JEHs

You write beautifully.............so,maybe, ultimately, we are looking for a friend.

bobc

[clmacdougall 11]

Dear JEHs

You write beautifully.............so,maybe, ultimately, we are looking for a friend.

bobc

 

I agree. I don't know about you guys but other than these forums I've got no one around me who wants to talk about trading or who appreciates the experiences and search I've been through.

 

After the first 3 years of full time study my wife never wanted to hear the words 'trading' ever again. I haven't mentioned it to her for the last 2 years as I've now completed 5 years of study.

 

Maybe it's because I expect others to respect/appreciate this community as much as I do, that I don't appreciate some of the misintentions of some vendor members.

 

The internet does not remove our responsibility to respect others. Too many people in these forums are treating people far differently than they ever would face to face.

 

I'll never forget when I was befriended by a member of my local church, within weeks of becoming my "friend" they were at my door with a cotton swab looking for a DNA sample from me in order to sell me life insurance. It was surreal.

 

To succeed as a TL vendor, identify yourself as such, then give alot more than other members and do it for a long time before trying to make a sale. Don't be selfish and self absorbed, people like that sicken you in your community, so why shouldn't they sicken others here in our community at TL.

 

Prove yourself interested in this community, keep giving into it even when there's no benefit but that of friendship here for you. And if that doesn't interest you, then you don't interest us. Peddle your wares elsewhere.

 

Close your Fuller Brush set display case, put your encyclopedias back in the box, fold back up that life insurance policy; we'll find you when we need you I'm sure that'll be easy enough!!

[SIUYA 11]

 

Dont confuse the separate, yet related, issues of the owners of TL and how they wish to deal with vendors and issues of non paying v paying and how they wish to run their site....

and the issue of users wanting to have transparency of who is a vendor.

 

Vendors are not bad, they can be helpful, we want them to advertise, they want to advertise (or generally should ) and TL should be happy for more users to start threads etc....to me the differences are that TL needs to work out the conflicts between various types of vendors, and it seems that all the general users wish to see is some transparency......and possibly the easiest type of transparency is an advert itself.....

 

for those that vend - of any type - courses, teachings, programs, indicators, books....have a simple category type whereby you can clearly see that the person is either a...

1....non paying vendor (not necessarily a bad thing if they are not shameless promoting, are civil, contribute and are not detracting from paying vendors)

2...a paying vendor (who knows how or what amounts).

 

and for both - if they are posting, then as part of their profile they should disclose what they are offering, price, terms etc.

 

This way its clear, people can make up their mind as to the VALUE AND MOTIVE of the post/thread, it is transparent, easier to monitor by TL and adjust their policies to and at the same time the content can be seen for what it is....

[thalestrader 14]

...for those that vend - of any type - courses, teachings, programs, indicators, books....have a simple category type whereby you can clearly see that the person is either a..

.

1....non paying vendor (not necessarily a bad thing if they are not shameless promoting, are civil, contribute and are not detracting from paying vendors)

2...a paying vendor (who knows how or what amounts).

 

and for both - if they are posting, then as part of their profile they should disclose what they are offering, price, terms etc.

 

This way its clear, people can make up their mind as to the VALUE AND MOTIVE of the post/thread, it is transparent, easier to monitor by TL and adjust their policies to and at the same time the content can be seen for what it is....

 

This seems to me to be the simplest and most reasonable proposal. TL gets weighed down by those who have come to have a healthy distrust of those who vend to the trading hopefuls feeling a need to self-police the forum. Then we lose good long time members like kiwi when TL management makes a decision that seems, rightly or wrongly, to unduly favor the vendor over the long time community member.

 

I suggested it myself. Confer "Commercial" status upon anyone who vends trading related material. It works all over the 'net. It will work here. Then this community can stop expending so much negative energy on stupid virtual slugfests (and I plead guilty of being stupid on more than one occassion myself), and driving away those who invested a lot of time and effort truly trying to help folks here without ever entertaining the thought of selling them that help down the road. MMS must step in and step up here, or the only people left posting will be vendors.

 

However, we should all be cautious of what we wish for - because if MMS does institute a "Commercial" status and a vendor is duly identified as such, then we community members ought to then relinquish our right to criticize that individual vendor simply for being a vendor.

 

For what its worth, I paid money for a Linda Bradford Raschke seminar that to this day continues to inform my trading for the better. I wish that she or Christopher Terry would actively participate here at TL. So not all vendors are evil and clueless ... only most of them.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[optiontimer 10]

Questions for the community:

1. Do you think members should be making judgement's of products\services for other people?

2. Do you need a better way (aside from hijacking an existing thread) to voice your opinion on these products\services? Maybe new Reviews forums?

 

thanks,

MMS

 

I'm a free market kind of guy, and my understanding of a free market always included the concept of caveat emptor, buyer beware. But there was always a corrolary concept that the buyer ought to be given as much information up front as possible. I think, in that vein, you ought to consider SIUYA's and thalestrader's advice to provide a simple, obvious method to identify the vendors, so that the buyers may at least know when they are talking to someone of whom they need to beware. In other words, is it fair of you to expect the buyer to beware if the buyer is unaware of the fact that he is being courted as a potential buyer?

 

-optiontimer

[Deusomega 10]

This seems to me to be the simplest and most reasonable proposal. TL gets weighed down by those who have come to have a healthy distrust of those who vend to the trading hopefuls feeling a need to self-police the forum. Then we lose good long time members like kiwi when TL management makes a decision that seems, rightly or wrongly, to unduly favor the vendor over the long time community member.

 

I suggested it myself. Confer "Commercial" status upon anyone who vends trading related material. It works all over the 'net. It will work here. Then this community can stop expending so much negative energy on stupid virtual slugfests (and I plead guilty of being stupid on more than one occassion myself), and driving away those who invested a lot of time and effort truly trying to help folks here without ever entertaining the thought of selling them that help down the road. MMS must step in and step up here, or the only people left posting will be vendors.

 

However, we should all be cautious of what we wish for - because if MMS does institute a "Commercial" status and a vendor is duly identified as such, then we community members ought to then relinquish our right to criticize that individual vendor simply for being a vendor.

 

For what its worth, I paid money for a Linda Bradford Raschke seminar that to this day continues to inform my trading for the better. I wish that she or Christopher Terry would actively participate here at TL. So not all vendors are evil and clueless ... only most of them.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

 

Yes all ex-Market Wizards definitely welcome! Good points.

[zdo 20]

Yes all ex-Market Wizards definitely welcome!

My thoughts when I read that -

One more time – EVERY vendor can only service a tiny niche.

Even if they believe and claim their ‘product’ is the applicable ‘answer’ for all traders…

Even if noobs are thinking “if only I could ___ ___” or “that would help me with ___ ” ,etc. when they are shopping the promotional material…

In my world, I see whole subgroups of traders to whom LBR’s body of work would be at best a distraction… and, please understand, that is definitely not disrespect of her contributions to the field. I bought Street Smarts and listened to seminars, etc and don’t regret it one bit - even though I have never used one of her techniques besides gathering some inspirations and developmental ideas from the volatility contraction / breakout material.

 

As a noob, way back when, I consumed tons of “systems” and “training” - like an adolescent whale sucking in krill.

Way expensive, expensive, moderately priced, cheap, free – it didn’t matter. Folks, we’re talking 6 figures over the years and untold associated time,etc. ‘costs’! Looking back, I don’t remember getting ripped off one time. I do remember exercising the performance guarantee / asking for my money back a few times – and getting it.

And I do remember thinking “well buying that one was stupid” , etc. :crap: But that was my path…

 

When I scan clMacd’s lists, I see maybe one scammer (and maybe a couple who are scamming and don’t even know it :helloooo: ) . I see all different types of marketing, promotion, and pricing of “professional” services. For example, send TRO $5, and you’ll get many multiples of $5 worth of code and modeling of trading state. Many end up sending him more money afterwards --- and of course, many, many more never ever really utilizing his ‘sht’ at all…

So, from my perspective

> as a noob I would appreciate maximal opportunity exposure herein from a plethora of vendors.

> mostly because they ALL only actually target a tiny niche - the new, low exposure self promoters, the vendors who aren’t very good at promotion, etc, etc should be as “definitely welcome” as ex-Market Wizards

 

 

The moderators will remove URL's from posts when they are reported - we prefer if you just report the post as we get emails and will take care of it immediately.

If posters are going to ‘disclose’ their vendor status at all – by sneaking in links or email addresses etc...

MMS, in addition to your 1 X 7 inch spots, have you considered placing 2 by 2 grids of 1/4 “ X 1/4 “clik banks” for the tiny vendors? It wouldn’t be a huge revenue source for you, but at least it could force ‘legitimization’ on them all.

[Tams 20]

if you google some of the vendors on the list,

you will find them on multiple forums, talking, chatting up different people at the same time.

One wonders, where do they find time to trade? or teach?

[Deusomega 10]

My thoughts when I read that -

One more time – EVERY vendor can only service a tiny niche.

Even if they believe and claim their ‘product’ is the applicable ‘answer’ for all traders…

Even if noobs are thinking “if only I could ___ ___” or “that would help me with ___ ” ,etc. when they are shopping the promotional material…

In my world, I see whole subgroups of traders to whom LBR’s body of work would be at best a distraction… and, please understand, that is definitely not disrespect of her contributions to the field. I bought Street Smarts and listened to seminars, etc and don’t regret it one bit - even though I have never used one of her techniques besides gathering some inspirations and developmental ideas from the volatility contraction / breakout material.

 

As a noob, way back when, I consumed tons of “systems” and “training” - like an adolescent whale sucking in krill.

Way expensive, expensive, moderately priced, cheap, free – it didn’t matter. Folks, we’re talking 6 figures over the years and untold associated time,etc. ‘costs’! Looking back, I don’t remember getting ripped off one time. I do remember exercising the performance guarantee / asking for my money back a few times – and getting it.

And I do remember thinking “well buying that one was stupid” , etc. :crap: But that was my path…

 

When I scan clMacd’s lists, I see maybe one scammer (and maybe a couple who are scamming and don’t even know it :helloooo: ) . I see all different types of marketing, promotion, and pricing of “professional” services. For example, send TRO $5, and you’ll get many multiples of $5 worth of code and modeling of trading state. Many end up sending him more money afterwards --- and of course, many, many more never ever really utilizing his ‘sht’ at all…

So, from my perspective

> as a noob I would appreciate maximal opportunity exposure herein from a plethora of vendors.

> mostly because they ALL only actually target a tiny niche - the new, low exposure self promoters, the vendors who aren’t very good at promotion, etc, etc should be as “definitely welcome” as ex-Market Wizards

 

 

 

If posters are going to ‘disclose’ their vendor status at all – by sneaking in links or email addresses etc...

MMS, in addition to your 1 X 7 inch spots, have you considered placing 2 by 2 grids of 1/4 “ X 1/4 “clik banks” for the tiny vendors? It wouldn’t be a huge revenue source for you, but at least it could force ‘legitimization’ on them all.

 

My point was a simple one. From my understanding all those individuals who appeared in the Market Wizards books have "real world" verifiable records of trading success. If I could pick any criteria on which to focus the attention of trading newcomer on it would be those with real records of trading success.

 

I said nothing about whether one through their own ingenuity and hard work can make lemonade out of lemons. No one is talking about removing vendors from the forum. No one is talking about insta banning individuals when they ninja link their services in posts. No one is trying to put obstacles in everyone's own "path". I think most in this thread including clmac are doing nothing more than adding more information into the market. What he has mostly suggested is akin to adding intraday volume when all individuals have is EOD. Whether you think intraday volume is useful or useless what one can say objectively is that vendor identification is merely adding another piece of information.

[zdo 20]

re: "If I could pick any criteria on which to focus the attention of trading newcomer on it would be those with real records of trading success."

I understand what you’re saying - but …I would not pick that criteria and would advise others against it !

The hitch - the 'priceless' / 'invaluable' info that the proven profitable trader might share is ultimately no more transferrable to student traders than drivel from the shysters...

 

Over the years, I personally have learned more and have gotten more usable 'best info' from trading vendors who were actually highly developed in their areas of representing and reading the markets (but who had other weaknesses that kept them from putting it all together like a wizard) than I have from the 'real' wizards. I even daresay I learned as much from observing their foibles and learning what not to do as I have learned from the 3 famous wizards I’ve had sustained relationships with…

believe it or not – that can be an incredible waste of time

Basically my point is - the match btwn what a vendor is offering and nature and trading style of the consumer thoroughly dwarfs the weighting of the quality of the vendor

 

re “…No one is talking about insta banning…” etc.

ok...but the madness of crowds waits and waits then erupts

[Deusomega 10]

re: "If I could pick any criteria on which to focus the attention of trading newcomer on it would be those with real records of trading success."

I understand what you’re saying - but …I would not pick that criteria and would advise others against it !

The hitch - the 'priceless' / 'invaluable' info that the proven profitable trader might share is ultimately no more transferrable to student traders than drivel from the shysters...

 

Over the years, I personally have learned more and have gotten more usable 'best info' from trading vendors who were actually highly developed in their areas of representing and reading the markets (but who had other weaknesses that kept them from putting it all together like a wizard) than I have from the 'real' wizards. I even daresay I learned as much from observing their foibles and learning what not to do as I have learned from the 3 famous wizards I’ve had sustained relationships with…

believe it or not – that can be an incredible waste of time

Basically my point is - the match btwn what a vendor is offering and nature and trading style of the consumer thoroughly dwarfs the weighting of the quality of the vendor

 

re “…No one is talking about insta banning…” etc.

ok...but the madness of crowds waits and waits then erupts

 

I get everything that you are saying. If I could sum up all your posts and main points in this thread it would be that success in the end is all up to the individual. I agree with that fully. I think this is what you are relaying at least.

 

In the end I would rather take my chances with the proven professional for 5k then a guy with a blog who tells me I can beat the big bad HFT with my own homemade algo. (with no programming experience needed)

[joshdance 10]

I have no problem with vendors, period. I do have a problem with people starting threads on forums posting charts of trades they supposedly took, with little arrows for buy and sell, unidentified lines that have some special meaning, and in code-speak giving half the piece of the puzzle. Then when others ask simply what the method is all about, they get accused of wanting handouts, and not thinking for themselves, and called lazy for not wanting to "do the work." It's classic guru-speak, and is only spoken by those who either have a god complex and who desire the masses to follow them blindly, or by those who are selling the answer to the question.

 

What then usually happens is that those with half or more of a brain call their BS, they get "upset" and then the sheep who follow them, thinking they have "the answer," beg like little puppies for them to stay and be "generous" by continuing to give away a partial piece of a puzzle whose undisclosed portion is a moving average crossover, or a fib retracement, or some other useless information that is freely available elsewhere. Of course, you won't find that out until you fork over some dough. If the guru didn't want such "freeloaders" asking questions, then he or she shouldn't have posted in the first place with hazy information. My advice to wannabe gurus is: post 100% of the story, or don't post at all. If it's that secretive, why would you want to even give part of it away? Just keep it to yourself and enjoy living in your mansion where you live filthy rich.

 

Please, just watch the freaking charts, watch how price moves, formulate some theories, or read some other good theories and figure out how they can work for you. This constant external search for a packaged, workable methodology almost guarantees failure, because it's evidence of a lack of critical thinking skills. You don't even have to be original, just borrow ideas freely available from helpful posters or internet forums. Some of the best ideas I've gotten for trading ideas have been from people just saying common sense things on forums, and also from watching my own charts, and from tuning out the advice of others who are already sold on their methodology. Trade what works for you, and find out what doesn't work and improve it. Simple as that. I'm more consistently profitable since I stopped looking for all the answers from everyone else. I do, however, ask questions of other traders who I think have good ideas and who don't pretend to have the grail. This is good learning, IMO, but you're wasting your time paying someone for a "system."